When working with a SM that clearly doesn't know his job, how does a lower enlisted handle this without coming off as insubordinate or etc?

2015-12-27T17:54:30-05:00

And when speaking about a SM, I'm speaking about a Squad Leader, (e4&above) Team Lead, e5 and etc...

Response by SGT Roberto Mendoza-Diaz made Dec 27 at 2015 5:58 PM

2015-12-27T17:58:45-05:00

You should approach a NCO that you trust and ask him to talk with the SM you are having problems with.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2015 6:11 PM

2015-12-27T18:11:26-05:00

I think that one depends on the situation. I told a can he was wrong but I did it by addressing his rank and showing him the facts respectfully. It's all about tact. Some people are irrational and not approachable.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2015 6:14 PM

2015-12-27T18:14:42-05:00

There are a couple of routes you can take.
1. Probably the most preferred, and best soldier style way you could go, get with an NCO whom you feel comfortable with and that has a good relationship with the person you're talking about and have him/her address the person.
2. If you know this person is reasonable, and will listen to you, then have an "offline" discussion with them. Just be sure you don't make it appear that you are challenging them or questioning their position/authority/leadership. Make it cordial and understanding as to why you're addressing them with the matter at hand. If they're a good Soldier/NCO, then they shouldn't mind that you are looking to improve them as a soldier/leader by helping them and pointing some stuff out.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2015 6:21 PM

2015-12-27T18:21:31-05:00

I've worked in shops where the knowledge base was flipped but that was mostly due to most of the SGT-SFC had recently reclassed into the MOS. There are several factors here why does the individual not know their job? are they willing to learn? Which part of the job (basic soldiering, MOS specific, leading troops)? Is safety an issue? If they are willing to learn offer to teach them. There is no shame in learning from someone lower ranking than you. Rank does not equate to knolage. If they are unwilling like SGT Mendoza-Diaz said go to one of their peers. If safety is an issue speak up and go over their head if necessary (make sure you are right).

Response by SFC A.M. Drake made Dec 27 at 2015 6:22 PM

2015-12-27T18:22:44-05:00

Specifically how does he not know his job and you do? Not meant as a rejection of your original question but as a means to see what are the other issues going on in your section? Provide some examples please so that we as a whole can give our best advice. You know there are 2 sides to every story.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2015 6:24 PM

2015-12-27T18:24:29-05:00

Trust me, if it's not a life or death situation, let it go. If you are noticing it then that means that somone else probably has as well. Eventually, it will be addressed and corrected by the proper channels but for now do your job to the best of your ability. I've seen it happen, a soldier calls out a superior on their incompetence and then the rest of the squad begins to nit-pick on everything their superior does. It calls for an uncomfortable work environment for everyone. Just keep it to yourself and drive on.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Dec 27 at 2015 7:01 PM

2015-12-27T19:01:56-05:00

If it was a safety matter anyone was allowed to stop operations. If not, I expected some tact from the juniors.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2015 7:12 PM

2015-12-27T19:12:38-05:00

I have had leaders with no experience, or very little, in my field. I, honestly, have gotten used to it, even though I hate it, it isn't necessarily their own fault. (being placed in a unit in which the job is not performed or a reclass). Sometimes you just have to let it go, be a leader, and teach them.

Response by PVT Robert Gresham made Dec 27 at 2015 8:27 PM

2015-12-27T20:27:03-05:00

SPC Private RallyPoint Member, speaking as former 11C, if the problem is leadership skills, then you are probably better off to let it go. Those will be built with time. Remember that working on a mortar is a team effort, and as part of the team then you can try to work with the individual to get his skills straight. If however, he is messing up on live fire FDC plots, or firing the mortar in the wrong direction a few degrees (more than 2-3 degrees) then it is time to talk to the Section/Platoon Sergeant, and let them know what is happening. This is a safety issue that must be addressed before someone is injured or worse. When you address the next higher NCO, be sure to only give the facts. Don't make comments like, "He has no idea what he is doing". Try instead to say something like, "I need to talk to you about a safety issue. I noticed that SGT Smith's plot was over 18 degrees off. We almost (could have) dropped rounds outside the impact zone.", or something to that effect. Don't try to insult the individual in question, try to get him help where he so desperately needs it.

And, be ABSOLUTELY SURE that you know what you are talking about. Regardless of whether you are right or not, don't expect a warm welcome, especially if you are talking about the next higher NCO in your chain of command. But safety is always first priority in any case. Good Luck !!

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2015 8:57 PM

2015-12-27T20:57:08-05:00

A thousand years ago, I was at Camp Casey, Korea (86-87), and my squad leader (SSG) was functionally illiterate. When he found out I had some college, he made me sit outside his office when doing monthly counseling... "PFC Motyka, how you spell 'Motivation'?" "PFC Motyka, how you spell 'Counsel'?"

On top of this - he couldn't find his ass with both hands if you spotted him nine fingers.

After three months, I couldn't take it any more, and lost it. "Motivation: M-O-D-A-V-A-S-H-U-N," "Counsel: K-O-W-N-S-E-L-L."

Guess what we found out that month? We found out that Top actually picked one platoon each month and read through the counseling statements. My SSG was called in by our Platoon Sergeant (VERY red-faced), and within five minutes, I hear him screaming my name.

Our First Sergeant asked for clarification and I told the truth. "Hey, just have him try to spell 'Platoon'!!" Top gave my SFC a nod and he grabbed me by the shoulder and took me into the (thankfully empty) CO's office and started screaming at me like only a senior NCO and prior Drill Sergeant knows how to do. When he started pushing chairs and knocking crap around, I started to pay attention - and he was all, "AND I'M GONNA BE YELLING AT YOU LIKE THIS BECAUSE IT'S EXPECTED AND YOU'RE GONNA WALK OUT OF HERE AND LOOK LIKE I TORE YOU A NEW ASSHOLE, DO YOU UNDERSTAND?!?!"

I was confused as hell as he kept it up for about fifteen minutes. Top opened the door, and it was like someone just turned off the "Pissed off" switch in my Platoon Sergeant. The SSG was never seen again - relieved for cause and transferred that very day - and our Sergeant got the job as Squad Leader. The matter was never broached again.

Yeah, I don't think that would be allowed any more...

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2015 10:11 PM

2015-12-27T22:11:29-05:00

You are all on the same team, SPC Private RallyPoint Member. Your success as a mortar crew hinges upon everyone knowing their job. When you do team drills, help a brother out. I know it is uncomfortable, even irritating, that someone with more rank doesn't know the job well. If you support each other, you will all be better for it.

Response by CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2015 10:24 PM

2015-12-27T22:24:05-05:00

I've encountered this a lot. For the lower enlisted personnel, granted that you know your job very well and that you are more relied on by your teammates. GREAT! However, knowing your job well is not a ticket for you to belittle anyone especially your NCOS and/or peers. Be professional! If they don't know what theyre doing then teach them.. that's part of being a leader. You didn't join the army and knew everything in one day. Pass the knowledge and let them be an asset not a liability. Help them so they can help you!

For the SM (Squad leader E4 and above), take the initiative to learn. ASK! Your soldiers will appreciate it if they see you willing to learn your job and not just sitting down while your whole team is operating. If you want to lead then learn how to.. you can't lead by sitting down and tasking your soldiers to do your job. DO WHAT YOU'RE GETTING PAID FOR AND EARN THE RESPECT AND TRUST OF YOUR SOLDIER(s).

Response by MAJ Jim Steven made Dec 27 at 2015 10:32 PM

2015-12-27T22:32:27-05:00

easy....your tone and demeanor.
are you trying to be helpful, or a pompous dick who thinks they know everything...and everyone above them is so incompetent.
are you being helpful...of did the military make a mistake by not making you an E-9 out of basic??

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2015 9:24 AM

2015-12-28T09:24:40-05:00

You are an 11C. The answer is pretty simple. Out perform your leader and you will be promoted at a faster rate. I had the privilege of knowing an outstanding E-7 who encountered an E-6 who was his Squad Leader when he was a PV2...and he was still an E-6.

Response by SSG John Caples made Dec 28 at 2015 10:27 AM

2015-12-28T10:27:38-05:00

First, approach this in a delicate matter due to the rank of the person you want to approach , if above your rank, then seek assistance from team leader , if that doesn't work go to Sqd. Ldr. and so on, and so on. If rank is the same pull Sm aside away from every one and tell this person that he needs to tighten up or after duty you will help him with his weak points, Remember a Plt's weakest man is the strongest link in that Plt.

Response by SSG Byron Hewett made Dec 28 at 2015 4:12 PM

2015-12-28T16:12:11-05:00

1. quietly ask if you don't already know if they recently changed their MOS
2. If so then volunteer to assist them to become better more proficient if they accept the help, it maybe just a matter of becoming more familiar and getting more practice in the new skill sets where as in their previous MOS (if they have one) they maybe extremely proficient in it and just need a bit more time to adjust and familiarize themselves with the new skills sets.
3. remember everyone of us who are serving, or who have served are still a family and we have to watch each others backs at all times even if it doesn't seem or feel convenient cause that individual maybe the one to save your life in a combat zone one day.

Response by A1C Melissa Jackson made Dec 29 at 2015 8:10 AM

2015-12-29T08:10:28-05:00

My response is that at YOUR rank it is NOT your place to decide whether more experienced and advanced NCOs "know their job". It, however, IS your place to know YOURS and do it with precision, and high attention to detail. If you are concerned with how well someone (particularly a higher-ranked person) "knows their job", then you damn well better be performing YOURS perfectly.

If you are genuinely concerned about a higher level person's performance then follow the COC- and be prepared to face the consequences of your actions- good or bad. You WILL be getting more attention.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2015 8:34 AM

2015-12-29T08:34:15-05:00

Seen it at both ends. When I was an E-6, I had a 1SG who couldn't do paperwork to save his life. That year, 1988, I personally wrote 2/3rd of the NCOERs done by my unit. But it was a great experience and helped me move up the ladder.

On the other side, when a Platoon Sergeant I had a SSG know-it-all. And in fairness, he was very bright and competent. But I often had to tell him, "Look, I've considered your opinion, but I've made my decision and that's it. When you are PSG, you can do what you think is right."

I was fresh out a boot camp, a brand new PFC and was assigned to the CBR decontamination team. We practiced hard and were very good. Mil stakes came up at Fort Hood and the competition was the division decon team composed completely of NCOs. My team leader, a SSG, wasn't dumb, but he also knew I had enrolled in college and knew the book better than he did. When it came time for the Team Leader examination, he sent me. (And let me tell you, that was scary. I'm in the middle of a zebra farm peppering me with questions and eyeing my collar as if I had put on the wrong shirt. Surely a PFC can't be the team chief.) We did win, incidentally, and the team got letters of commendation for the battalion and brigade commanders.

I haven't met anyone yet who was completely outstanding at every aspect of their job. Personally, I am absolutely lousy when it comes to maintenance. I can't even unscrew a bolt without trying to remember which way is on, and which is off.

So here's a few things to keep in mind:

1) It's just possible that the leader may recognize your assistance and see that you get some credit, even if only under the table.
2) Working above your pay grade is good experience and helps you get promoted.
3) Sabotaging someone above you may feel good, but it isn't going to make you any friends.
4) It really doesn't hurt to give someone some discrete help. In the long run, no one who is completely incompetent can keep it a secret forever, no matter how many people he has helping him. He'll either get with the program, or he'll step on his crank somewhere that he hasn't got a crutch to lean on. No need to take this on. The universe has a way a dealing out justice, at least occasionally.

Response by A1C Melissa Jackson made Dec 29 at 2015 8:35 AM

2015-12-29T08:35:54-05:00

Wow- in reading through these responses I am startled at the number of lower-ranking members who think they know everything.

This pisses me off because the military is a place where we learn (quickly) to appreciate our PLACE in the COC, and at these lower levels- your place is to do your job, follow orders, and SHUT UP.

Frankly, my memory of service is that the THOUGHT of correcting an officer (non-commissioned or commissioned) was something that I would not have entertained.

I was young, and very stupid, so I got a little snippy during a twelve hour night shift on the flight line with a second lieutenant (primarily because I heard them called butter bars, and did not have adequate respect) one time, and I got put in my place VERY QUICKLY, and I understood right away why that is INAPPROPRIATE. My MSGT took me down at the KNEES for that.

Also, in my life experience as a professional who had to occasionally guide support staff I know that my knowledge of my job is HIGHER than theirs, and I expect them to back their asses off and do as I ask. Guess why? I have had years of training, education, continuing education, and experience.

Perhaps your NCO should put YOU in your place? Sounds like you need it in the worst way, SPC.

Response by SFC Brian Walden made Dec 29 at 2015 9:00 AM

2015-12-29T09:00:06-05:00

SPC Dominguez, I chuckle a bit reading your post here. I believe everyone will probably deal with this at some point in their career. I remember being pulled off to the side to offer tactical advice to squad leaders that did not have the luxury of the vast amount of tactical training that I was afforded. I am not trying to say I was a Infantry God, I am saying that from my 1st day out of AIT I was given the absolute best NCO Support Channel available.... from my Team Leader on up to my CSM. I never disrespected any of them. Yes, I had opinions, however, I knew that we were a team, and WE needed to succeed. We did, and I was recognized for my support. Be as professional as you can, demonstrate your expertise. If you have a good NCO support channel, it WILL be recognized, and you will likely be fast-tracked in promotions. Good Luck & High Angle Hell.

-Brian
11B4 1988-2008

Response by Sgt Bruce C. made Dec 29 at 2015 11:23 AM

2015-12-29T11:23:41-05:00

How well do you get along with this SM? If you have a good relationship, then have a talk with him. If you two butt heads, then it harder to fix. You then need to decide to butt heads some more or let it go.

Response by Cpl Dr Ronnie Manns made Dec 29 at 2015 11:33 AM

2015-12-29T11:33:26-05:00

What has worked for me is taking them off to the side and asking if I might make a suggestion. Making sure that I can answer every question that they may have and if the individual changes courses never let it be known that wasn't their idea. This not only allowed me to keep my Marines safe but it also told me if this person was one you could work with or not. By doing this out of ear-shot of anyone else and keeping the results private, you may be able to kill two birds with one stone.

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Dec 29 at 2015 3:47 PM

2015-12-29T15:47:14-05:00

Had the same issue with an SFC, the 1SG used to come to me when I was a SSG and gripe that the SFC did not provide what the 1SG asked for, I would complete the task, the SFC cornered me and asked why I was doing his job, I told him I was doing what the 1SG asked, Fast forward 7 years, I am at the Warrant Officer Candidate School and lo and behold, the same SFC is now the NCOIC of the dropout platoon for WOCS, so soon I know he will be saluting me, justice served. Don't like the leadership do everything you can to become the leadership.

Response by A1C Lisa Casserly made Dec 29 at 2015 4:18 PM

2015-12-29T16:18:16-05:00

I suppose that would depend... I mean, does this higher ranking person not know their job because they are new to it, or do they not know because they have either refused to learn, or are lazy, or just plain don't care? If its the former, you could go to them privately and offer to show them the ropes. You could open the conversation by asking if they need help, or by saying something like "I noticed that you seemed a little confused" or something like that. If the person is the latter... then I would really suggest that you go to another higher ranking person and mention your concerns. Because that person might end up getting someone killed because of their lack of knowledge or lack of give a shit. And that would be wrong.

Response by MSgt Joe Tafoya made Dec 29 at 2015 7:04 PM

2015-12-29T19:04:38-05:00

Put in for a transfer or put in for a different MOS school. In the '70's I put up with E-7's with 8th grade educations who only knew how to do things in the most difficult or stupid ways. They had the position and athority so we just had to grit our teeth and do as ordered. They have the credentials so the only thing was to grit your teeth or put in for transfer. The "Peter Principle" is a book from the '60's and it gives a good view of how people rise to their greatest level of incompetence. Talk to your peers, if the majority do not agree with you then you really need to look back at yourself. I did a lot of things in the Army I absolutely hated but I was assigned and it was accomplished. Don't make a name for yourself because it will come up more than for those who keep a low profile.

Response by SGT Tim Fridley made Dec 29 at 2015 10:46 PM

2015-12-29T22:46:40-05:00

I once had a motor SGT (SFC) who wanted me to do his deadline reports for him. I was an E-5 section/squad leader and also serving as the BN. master driver for wheeled vehicles. Flat out told him I was not doing his job for him as I had my troops to take care of. Funny thing was he had just returned from ANCOC

Response by SPC Byron Skinner made Dec 29 at 2015 11:26 PM

2015-12-29T23:26:18-05:00

Sp4 Byron Skinner. Yea I had a Squad Leader who I didn't get along with and we made a couple of trips out in back of the motor pool and took off our rank and worked things out. When we got to Nam after I pulled his butt out of rather bad situation with Mr. Charles and we got along just fine. As for an idiot I agree with MCPO, set the clown up and let him make himself look stupid.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2015 7:34 AM

2015-12-30T07:34:45-05:00

Key word "with all do respect (rank)"

Response by Cpl Shawn Halloran made Dec 30 at 2015 10:01 AM

2015-12-30T10:01:39-05:00

when i was an E4 and had a squad or work detail under me the first thing i told them is if you have a better way of doing something come forward and say something and not to worry about my coming back on them for saying anything for the rest of the squad would be able to back them up to say i had told them to talk out ..

Response by SPC Jeffrey Frusha made Dec 31 at 2015 1:26 PM

2015-12-31T13:26:54-05:00

Been a while, but btdt with a Butter-Bar Lieutenant that was gungho, but at least he knew he didn't know and wanted to learn. He kept getting in trouble for fraternizing with the EMs, but we were all pleased to see an Officer that wanted to know every aspect of being a Tanker, and he eventually got his license to drive the M-1, as well as loading and gunning.

Aslo had a young buck SSG in boot camp that was from the Army Football team. Gungho, but made things unnecessarily hard on us mewbies, too. One day he walked in on a Platoon discussion on what we could do to change that. He told us to carry on, as if he wasn't there, but was sincere enough we continued. He very nearly broke down, but he saw we all wanted him to suceed. 1st time a greenhorn, Jr. Drill Sergeant in our unit got a new hat.

It can be difficult, but if there's time, talk to the squad and give them a heads up. He has to be aware of what's going on, and the team has to make the effort, even bass-ackwards, sometimes. They can teach him, by asking for help with the MOS study guide, as well as any Board study work. Anything that sharpens any member of the team, dealing within the MOS can be used as a training session, even covertly.

Response by SSG James Richardson made Jan 4 at 2016 8:17 AM

2016-01-04T08:17:51-05:00

Believe it or not, almost all leaders get put in to situations where they do not know as much as another individual about a specific task. This is a common gripe across fields even not in the military. Such as, say a store manager is familiar with the operations but may not be the best cashier in the store. A leaders ability to conceptualize the intent and direction of a team or section, as well as their ability to communicate outside of the confines of a single task is beneficial. There are so many ways this scenario can go as to how you can 'deal with it". A part of it is putting away your ego, if you've got more to give to the team, then give it, there's more to the Army and to leadership than a single task. Another part to it is making sure you're being objective, and not just knit picking because things don't go the way you think they'd go if "you were in charge". You will have your time. If that's all taken care of definitively, then the best thing to do first is try to talk to that leader by asking for some "off line time". You might learn a few things, or you might not. Operations become tense when there is a lot of undo hostility and tension built from overt displays of disrespect and this isn't the best way to affect positive change without also inviting the same to happen to you. So if you're in the position you may impress upon them tactfully that you believe either that you have more to offer the team that will remove some of the burden, or that you are personally desiring a more guidance or seek mentorship. There may come a time (may be not to far in the future) where you will need to request the audience of his supervisor -utilize the open door policy if you need to--so there can be some determinations made as to wether or not this individual is toxic or incompetent. What I've often found is that it's often a mix of issues from both sides and not just one, and I believe through maturity and tact it can be dealt with, unless the person is toxic that you really need to use your open door policy immediately. Or go to the IG.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2016 12:55 PM

2016-01-06T12:55:10-05:00

Pull that leader aside, and offer to help them. If you explain yourself respectfully, and can validate your claim with Regs or manuals, then any good leader will be willing to listen. However, if you tell them "you don't know what you're doing," then you deservedly will get shut down. If they still don't listen to the diplomatic approach, then take it to their first-line and request a change-out, or some concurrent training to teach them, and a secondary, the job

Response by MAJ Scott Meehan made Jan 7 at 2016 2:33 PM

2016-01-07T14:33:23-05:00

Difficult for sure. One can do what I did...kept my mouth shut, ETS, went to ROTC, and came back in a commissioned officer.

Response by SPC Timothy Repetto made Mar 4 at 2016 9:12 AM

2016-03-04T09:12:12-05:00

It will come to light. You just have to make sure your there for your guys and look out for them. You look out for the welfare of your men and squad mates. That's all you can do.

Response by PFC Stephan Ellis made Apr 6 at 2016 7:54 AM

2016-04-06T07:54:58-04:00

All considerations made, and as far as I was concerned in my day, it all boiled down to whether the cat was either the incompetent obnoxious chiwawa, or friendly balanced and loyal Labrador type of leader.
Not to brag, but I worked my but of to become the best gunner I could possibly be, so my attitude varied depending on the type of goof ball I encountered. Respectful and respected leader... One on one in private to the side. Clown ass kissing medal hunter... you're getting put on the spot, with PSG and Butter bar laughing their ass off before remedial concealing for the both of us.
I was never down for nonsense, and never afraid to let it be known.