Posted on Aug 15, 2014
SGT Jonathan Williams
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When you are faced with a situation of a leader (subordinate or senior to you) with questionable leadership, how do you cope/deal? Specifically, when you observe someone enforcing a standard then violating that same standard either overtly or covertly. What are your examples? What was the solution?
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SGT Team Leader
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Personally, I see questionable leader actions pretty often. As a SPC, there is little I can do. I can't correct them exactly. Sometimes, though, depending the leader, I can ask a few questions or try and see things from their perspective. Maybe this COA was what they thought was best at the time. Maybe they didn't have all the answers and was forced to make a judgment call. Or perhaps the order didn't come from them at all and they were simply passing along information.
In any case, I have learned a lot from leader mistakes over the years. When I see it happen, I always look at the situation and ask myself what I would do differently. I believe my empathy for soldiers is due, in large part, to questionable leadership I have witnessed.
A LTC is just as human as the lowest PVT. The difference (besides military title and rank, obviously) lies in time, maturity, and experience. We are all just an accumulation of life experiences. I think the most important thing we can learn from both good leaders and bad leadership is what we can learn from each.
If a SSG gives a me a completely ridiculous line of BS, well, unless he's about to get me hurt, I do what he says. This isn't to say that I'm not constantly turning over in my head the "who, what, when, where, why, and how" of it. And trying to learn from it, so that, frankly, I want to try and avoid making the same mistake in the future.
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SGT Jonathan Williams
SGT Jonathan Williams
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It sounds like you are going to take what you observe and not make the mistakes that you see your leaders make. I did the same thing. It made me successful on most fronts.
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PO1 Master-at-Arms
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Well said, Lindsey! Also remember, unjust people come and go, so you won't see them, come 6 months or 1 year from now on average. Another comforting thought for me personally is that I still get a check on the 1st and 15th.

Sometimes it just comes down to it, and not too much you can do about it. Bible also says to love thy 'enemy'. Other parts say to 'forgive them for they know not what they're doing'. I guarantee you that they know that they're not doing something right and it's just a matter of time til it catches up to them
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MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca
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I have some experience in this area with a junior leader I had to fire from their position. The man was a good guy who as an E-7 was more content with being one of the guys. I counseled him, gave him plenty of tasks to do that would insure his success - which he just failed to do, started counseling him monthly and giving him simple goals such as conducting an alert roster test, squaring away the equipment locker and doing inventories on soldier's issued equipment - simple down to earth PSG stuff that he just didn't seem willing to accomplish. I wasn't overly pleased by this guy but I gave him every benefit of the doubt I could. This went on for 8 months until the straw that broke my back was him showing complete disregard for instructions. I was the acting commander and we were at CP Edwards, MA for the weekend. We got in around 2200, he was the senior NCO at the time, and I expected him to get the Es settled in for the night and have the company standing to in formation at 0600 for chow. At 0605 he and the company are still in their racks and I'm standing there trying to explain this to the BC. I took him aside, quietly, relieved him of his duties and fired him as my PSG. Luckily because I had all my counseling statements, I's dotted and Ts crossed, the CofC had no issue with my action after interviewing him and reviewing the paperwork. The guy resented me for the next 6 months until he was kicked out of the NG for getting into enough trouble with civilian law enforcement.
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SGT Jonathan Williams
SGT Jonathan Williams
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It sounds like you were more than patient, until it affected the unit's success.
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MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca
MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca
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SGT Jonathan Williams, No one is perfect and I believe in giving everyone a fair shot but I had an E7 who could barely act as a section SGT, let alone a PSG at that point its was undermining my PLT and the CO. You would think at that grade one would be trying to excel, but everyone is different.
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PO1 Master-at-Arms
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Thank you Major for sharing that! I might face the same should my OCS package get approved on 15th of next month!
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SFC MLRS/HIMARS Crewmember
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Edited >1 y ago
"Embracing the suck" and being patient are important, as you do not want to butt heads with a superior and compromise your position (maybe you are holding the moral high ground, or you are more MOS proficient). Being technically and tactically proficient can help you avoid some BS. For example; your leader wants you to set up a piece of equipment in the field which will be a pain, or is incorrect, etc. If you can recommend a better way based on unit SOP, FM, or TM that will make your life easier and fulfill the mission, then try to do so tactfully. A lot of heartache can be solved by providing a recommendation with supporting documentation for why you are making that recommendation. Tactfully, of course.

I'm in a similar position (newly-promoted E-7 as our PSG, new to the position, needs technical and tactical guidance). I've already had to butt heads over some minor stuff, but with a deployment coming up soon life will be hell if this continues. I've been thinking about it a lot, and the best option I can think of is to try and upwards mentor him. I'll lean on our 1SG to lend his guidance and help develop him (fortunately we have an excellent 1SG I can count on to do so), while I help bridge the gap at platoon level. My concern is that we have a new 2LT coming, and two green leaders at the same time at any echelon is asking for trouble... It was hell overseas last time with a green CO and 1SG.

In your situation, could you cite a specific example of when your leader enforced a standard on you and then you witnessed them violating it? Are we talking violations of our values, SOP/MOS type stuff?
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SGT Jonathan Williams
SGT Jonathan Williams
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Wow. I can not imagine the challenge. You would have to leverage their direct leadership to exert your influence/mentorship. And depending on the mission I think I would feel unsettled with both leaders being green. I can relate somewhat however, I remember one of my new PSGs taking me off to the side and saying "show me everything". That is the easiest solution. But, not all leaders do that. I admit, I had it easy in that situation.

I think in my situation it was more of a values type thing. Namely respect. NCO told me to put my phone away during professional development class. What he did not know was that I was giving guidance to a Soldier. (As much as I try and set the place up for success while I am gone to a class/meeting... sometimes you get that text question) I could have ignored the text question, but I never really could do that. I'm that guy that has to answer that phone or get the door. I'm working on that.

When I saw him text five minutes later I just looked at him. Made sure we met eyes, then I looked at his phone. He gave me the stink eye... but my message to him was already relayed with my nonverbals. I needed to say or do nothing more. For that individual, anymore would have been a Pyrrhic victory.
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