Where can I find information on initiating a flag on a soldier for not completing a 4-mile esprit de corps run at a 9-minute mile pace?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 May 2018 06:51:08 -0400

If I am supposed to do the legwork and paperwork to flag a soldier, why is it not in any of the regulations that govern FLAG or commands policy?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2018 7:00 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 May 2018 07:00:21 -0400

Because you can't flag the Soldier for that. Work with your retention NCO and legal representatives.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made May 17 at 2018 7:46 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Thu, 17 May 2018 07:46:08 -0400

I am not sure why anyone would try to flag a Soldier for not completing a run! There could have been multiple reasons why they failed. Frankly (with very little info) I do not think it is a flagabke offense. To your question, in the event that it is your unit 1SG should know exactly how to process a flag. Be sure you are correct in your actions. There are many ways to correct trainjng deficiencies without a flag. Thank you for your service.

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made May 17 at 2018 7:52 AM

1SG Dennis Hicks — Thu, 17 May 2018 07:52:38 -0400

There is to little information to offer any help in this matter but I echo what has already been posted, leaders don't do flags for failing one run. There is more to this than the run.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2018 7:53 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 May 2018 07:53:21 -0400

You would need to be creative... and I say this from a direction of trying to assist you with accomplishing your mission, not on what "right and wrong" is here.
AR 600-8-2, para 2-2, 2-3 outline the reasons the commander may (or must) impose a FLAG. The closest situation that may apply here is if the CO is considering an Article 15 or reduction in grade due to inefficiency or misconduct or a letter of reprimand (para 2-2c(1-3)).
I have to say, that seems pretty heavy-handed unless this cat has a track record of sandbagging on these kind of events. Falling out on a run on purpose, however could get you some form of adverse action, so I can see that applying here.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2018 8:19 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 May 2018 08:19:32 -0400

Out of my "lane", but I'm hoping there's a great deal more to this story.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2018 9:18 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 May 2018 09:18:25 -0400

Doesn't sound like an action that can be used to flag a soldier.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made May 17 at 2018 10:18 AM

CSM Richard StCyr — Thu, 17 May 2018 10:18:18 -0400

Is your unit a member of the 18th Airborne Corps or in their war trace. In the way back machine one of the units I was in was a direct support unit and asset, we had to meet the standards for road marches and runs as contained in their policies.
My humble experience also leads me to believe there is probably more to the story than just Joe failing the 4 mile run at the target time. Might Joe have copped an attitude with said Brigade level version of the elusive "they", thus giving the impression that Joe forgot about the I shall never quit and never accept defeat of the warrior ethos causing the elusive "they" to take an inordinate interest in Joe.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made May 17 at 2018 10:37 AM

SSG Robert Perrotto — Thu, 17 May 2018 10:37:35 -0400

As others have already stated - you cannot flag a Soldier for falling out of a Cohesion Run. Counsel - absolutely - FLAG - nope - unless this SM presents other Issues. And Honest truth - the command initiates the Flag, usually through the training room. Seems you have been put in the spotlight.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2018 10:40 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 May 2018 10:40:40 -0400

Rather than playing fast and loose with the regs and trying to flag the individual, a bar to continued service may be the most fitting route. Get with your retention NCO to learn more.

Response by MAJ Bryan Zeski made May 17 at 2018 10:47 AM

MAJ Bryan Zeski — Thu, 17 May 2018 10:47:39 -0400

I think we're looking at this all wrong. A Soldier failed to complete an "esprit de corps" run. Sounds like this Soldier is lacking esprit de corps. THAT is a unit issue more than a Soldier issue. Flag the entire unit, starting with the Commander and CSM.

:)

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2018 11:14 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 May 2018 11:14:23 -0400

You can't flag a soldier for that. If you have had repeated incidents of malingering that are documented, perhaps you could recommend UCMJ. If this is the first time - I can't see how any flag could be imposed. If it's coming from higher your leadership needs to push back. Unless there's more to the story...

Response by SSG Steven Mangus made May 17 at 2018 11:20 AM

SSG Steven Mangus — Thu, 17 May 2018 11:20:55 -0400

es·prit de corps
eˌsprē də ˈkôr/Submit
noun
a feeling of pride, fellowship, and common loyalty shared by the members of a particular group.
A flag sounds contradictory to this definition. Your best bet, do the right thing and stand by the soldier and don't let him/her get some BS flag that could be fought quite easily. On the flip side of the coin, take the soldier in question out and improve their run time and be the leader and not the rank and file NCO..

Response by SGT Joseph Gunderson made May 17 at 2018 11:34 AM

SGT Joseph Gunderson — Thu, 17 May 2018 11:34:32 -0400

Are you Art 15'ing the soldier? If he just failed to perform the ruck march, that isn't a basis for a flag...

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2018 11:55 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 May 2018 11:55:36 -0400

It is the job of the commander to Flag a soldier. But to Flag a soldier due to a spirit De corps run? Wth? I think is way too extreme, given that is the 1st time and not the 12th. Different units, different standards, either way seems extreme to Flag the sm for falling out.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2018 12:01 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 May 2018 12:01:13 -0400

I just need to know if it will fly or not. It’s not in any regulation and it’s the first time for most of these kids. Some were unsuccessful in the past, and some, this is their first time. I know only 1sg/CO can legally do it but if their is no code than how is it possible. These kids all passed an APFT so it can not be for fitness reasons. AR 350-1 was the only reg referenced for this flag and I don’t see anything.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made May 17 at 2018 12:04 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Thu, 17 May 2018 12:04:39 -0400

"Where can I find information on initiating a flag on a soldier for not completing a 4-mile esprit de corps run at a 9-minute mile pace?"
No place, it does not exist. If your CDR or 1SG thinks otherwise, ask them politely, professionally to educate you, show you in a regulation or signed policy justifying a local or DA flag for failing to complete a unit run at a 9-minute mile pace.

Now, if that was just one of several examples of this SM being substandard, and the CDR feels it is worth of a Flag or Bar, and THEY want to impose a flag, your duties are to provide supporting documentation ..NOT initiate a flag... SFC E7s do not flag anyone, you do not have the authority ( I think you know that, so I'm not lecturing otherwise, just setting the stage so to speak.).

For you SFC Private RallyPoint Member the job starts and finishes with a performance counseling statement.
Assuming there is no actual physical justification for the SM's failure ..

" SM Marquez, you failed to complete a unit standard 4 run @ 9min miles pace. Though not an Army standard, nor a Unit standard that can be enforced, it is never the less a sign of poor conditioning on your part, be it mental, physical, or both to be unable to all but walk 4 miles in 36 min. We strive to work as a Team... and today you failed the team.
As a team the unit departed the company area with a single task. Start as a team, finish as a team. The physicality of this "run" was not a focus point. It was nether planned as a physical training event, nor should it have been physically taxing on a SM in this unit. It is an indicator of your lack of motivation, sense of duty to your team that you made a decision to give up.
I ask you to consider this event and issue in that light.... And decide...do you wish to make the team stronger by being part of it and never giving up? or do you see your quitting as acceptable. And please note, to never give up and fail is not weakness in itself. If it is taken as a learning point, and you strive to not make the same mistakes that caused the failure again. "

Or words to that effect

If after discussion with the SM post run (before performance counseling statement ), you feel there was a justifiable reason he did not meet the unit standard "Sergeant, look, I have finished every other unit run , I broke 2 toes on my foot last week in the MOUT house kicking in that door. I did not go get a profile, because I thought I would just tough it out, they cant really do anything for broken toes anyway. Ya I should have said something before the run, but I figured I could make it, we all but walk the damn thing anyway"

Then you go see the 1SG and tell him the deal. If they still want a performance counseling statement, to easy,,,,write it....and make sure it reads like 638 narrative for a Bronze star

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2018 12:09 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 May 2018 12:09:14 -0400

Why are you even supposed to do the paperwork? Respectfully, you’re a SFC. If the flag is your idea, shame on you. If you were told to do the paperwork, well you’re an E7. Fight for this soldier. Even if he’s a bag of turds, a bag of turds doesn’t deserve to get f*cked.
This is not a flag-worthy offense. Heck, it’s not even an offense. If anything, the NCOs should be pulled aside and get a hearty chew down. “Why do we have joes falling out?! Train harder!”

If that’s the nature of your unit, it sounds like more than a run is needed to improve the esprit de corps.

Response by CW4 Robert C. made May 17 at 2018 1:02 PM

CW4 Robert C. — Thu, 17 May 2018 13:02:52 -0400

SFC Fauth, I do believe that you cannot flag a soldier for falling out of an esprit de corps run. Now if it was a mandatory requirement by the Army for example the 2 mile run for the PT test, then you would have no problem doing a flag on him. If you really want to know, then I would make contact with the JAG office because they will have to look at it anyway. So instead of writing one up, ask first so you don't write for nothing. Hope this and all of comments help you out.

Response by 1SG Derek Lincoln made May 17 at 2018 1:04 PM

1SG Derek Lincoln — Thu, 17 May 2018 13:04:18 -0400

You can’t flag a soldier for a fun run. Flagging actions are for UCMJ actions and not meeting the standards of army regulations i.e. APFT and schools. As a senior NCO you should know this. Is this being requested by the 1SG, CDR or is it coming from higher. As a leader you can respectfully ask why is there a need to flag the SM but but tactful about it. Good luck.

Response by SPC Bill Good made May 17 at 2018 1:08 PM

SPC Bill Good — Thu, 17 May 2018 13:08:17 -0400

Did he fail multiple runs or just this one?
Is there more to this story?
I would like to know more about the backstory behind this please.

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2018 1:08 PM

1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 May 2018 13:08:50 -0400

Be me, read question, place palm directly on face and sigh heavily.

I'm sure you were told to, but there is no situation in which a flag for this can occur. Remedial PRT if it's a failure of a unit standard, enforces by a policy letter, sure, but not a flag. No UCMJ. No chapter initiation. Have him do better PT and move out smartly.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made May 17 at 2018 1:27 PM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Thu, 17 May 2018 13:27:38 -0400

I'll teoo you all a story, OK? When I was ArmynROTC, we used to have to do 2 miles in 18 mins in fatiguesmand combat boots. I was horrible...horrible...I had to pound out doing it ever night fox six straight months in freezing weather, to get my run time down, just to try tonne allowed to go to Ft Bragg for the junior summer camp, as it was called then, God knows what it:s called now, OK? We were finally up for our check run at Ft Hamilton, incidentally, where the AFEES was before it became a MEPS, where I was sent into USAF OTS later. We were on the parade ground track, and I was finally, thank God, able to keep up, the Assoc PMS, a Major who'd been Vietnam came up alongside to pace !e, he was totally blown away, honest, guys, some days you just never forget, that was one, honest. Now, I sprained my ankle after that, my run time shot back up, they wouldn't let !e go, I got my hon discharge from Army ROTC, then went USAF OTS, I had to apply twice to get them to let me try...while I was at Lacklamd, one guy, I'll never forget it, Jed been an NCAA track star, did a 4 min mile, six mins for a mile and a half, in shorts and sneakers, that was how USAF OTS did it then, I finally got up to eight miles a day in broiling TX sun and humidry, then, finally it was do it or get off the pot day, you know? We were allowed a pacer, one of !y two roommates in my first class, I had to go through the program twicez I was recycled afterward. With him nipping at my heels, screaming at me, I !Ade a mile and half in 12 mins with, I kid thee all not, one second to spare, for real. That:s a true story, guys, I also did the obstacle course, orienteering range, and rappelling cliff at West Point while I'd been Army ROTC, as well. So, if someone can't manage a 9 min mile, guys, I comprehend the thought, but if whoever did it slowermtham the esprit de corps rile wanted was within regs, honest, guys, been there, done that (BTDT), you know? I just offer that all as food for thought, such as it all is, OK? I know I'm gonna be disagreed with, however, having gone through all I've seen, I just figured inshoild chime in my two cents on the whole thing for whatever it might be worth, you know?

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made May 17 at 2018 1:27 PM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Thu, 17 May 2018 13:27:57 -0400

Sorry for any typos....

Response by MSG Danny Mathers made May 17 at 2018 3:34 PM

MSG Danny Mathers — Thu, 17 May 2018 15:34:37 -0400

You got to be kidding, you're an E-7 and asking a basic leadership question?

Response by SSG Fernando Caballero made May 17 at 2018 5:02 PM

SSG Fernando Caballero — Thu, 17 May 2018 17:02:18 -0400

As a SFC you would think you would actually know the answer to you’re own question. All you can do is counsel that soldier for falling out of that run. Also find out if he was running injured or Hell he just had a bad day. Everyone goes through it.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2018 5:08 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 May 2018 17:08:02 -0400

I doubt you will find any legal backing for a flag based on failure to complete a unit requirement. Flags are authorized on failure to meet Army standards only.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made May 17 at 2018 5:17 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Thu, 17 May 2018 17:17:05 -0400

Flagging a soldier for quitting in the middle of a fun run? Sounds like a fast way to make E-6. I would walk a tight rope with this. lest you fall into an IG bear trap.

Response by SGT Melissa Regalado made May 17 at 2018 5:36 PM

SGT Melissa Regalado — Thu, 17 May 2018 17:36:14 -0400

Can we say toxic leadership. Get those people out of leadership positions, they don't deserve to lead soldiers.

Response by SGT Christopher Hayden made May 17 at 2018 5:40 PM

SGT Christopher Hayden — Thu, 17 May 2018 17:40:12 -0400

Sounds like the entire unit is failing at espirit de corps if they are flagging people for this kind stuff. What a joke...

Response by 1SG Bill Farmerie made May 17 at 2018 6:34 PM

1SG Bill Farmerie — Thu, 17 May 2018 18:34:58 -0400

Flags are covered by AR 600-8-2. Show it to the person telling you to do it and ask them where in the reg, it allows a flag to be imposed for not completing a esprit de corps run

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2018 7:18 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 May 2018 19:18:13 -0400

Id have to look in AR 600-8-2 to be sure, but I do not recall a flag code for that.

Response by PFC Elijah Rose made May 17 at 2018 7:55 PM

PFC Elijah Rose — Thu, 17 May 2018 19:55:09 -0400

His boss has an ulterior motive, period.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2018 3:44 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 18 May 2018 03:44:29 -0400

Thanks for the help. I have unfollowed this post. The comments were getting to close to what you would read on a satire FB page.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2018 6:56 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 18 May 2018 06:56:52 -0400

If the soldier passes his APFT, you need to leave him alone. If i were that soldier, I'd be at the IG. This is ridiculous.

Response by SGT David T. made May 18 at 2018 8:00 AM

SGT David T. — Fri, 18 May 2018 08:00:14 -0400

The sheer stupidity of flagging a Soldier for that is mind boggling. Sounds like you were directed to do this. Since the chain of command has obviously no inkling of what good leadership looks like you have to resort to more creative measures to make this go away. You have the right to contact members of Congress whenever you feel like it. We well placed call from a Congressional staffer can affect some changes in course. Also, if social media groups such as US Army WTF Moments were made aware of this, I have a sneaking suspicion this course of action would be quickly reversed. It seems in a few cases units getting shamed there tend to have some interesting results.

Response by SPC Chelsea Fernandez made May 18 at 2018 2:34 PM

SPC Chelsea Fernandez — Fri, 18 May 2018 14:34:36 -0400

In the 8 years I've been in I never heard no such thing. Sounds like a bunch of BS trying to flag someone for a run and seems for of a company issue

Response by Cpl Richard Wobser made May 19 at 2018 3:16 AM

Cpl Richard Wobser — Sat, 19 May 2018 03:16:18 -0400

I am a former (4421) Legal Specialist. I thought MARINES we're "Devildogs, Marines, Hard Chargers and Motivators". The A.R.M.Y is "Soldiers"!

So technically you cannot flag a soldier so not making any Esprit de corps run. After all they are the ARMY Aren't Ready to be Marines Yet!

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2018 3:58 AM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 May 2018 03:58:11 -0400

Why flag? It's a lot of paperwork for what you could accomplish just by "strongly suggesting" he run 6 miles a day until he can do a 7 minute pace. Just tell him that if he can't do that in three months, you'll flag him or he will be on EVERY detail you can put him on.

Response by 1LT Christopher Gonzales made May 19 at 2018 10:36 AM

1LT Christopher Gonzales — Sat, 19 May 2018 10:36:34 -0400

Whoever is telling you to do this needs to do it themselves and help save IG some time when the inevitable investigation starts.

Response by 1SG Clifford Barnes made May 19 at 2018 12:41 PM

1SG Clifford Barnes — Sat, 19 May 2018 12:41:15 -0400

His company commander can do it and it’s a 268 form not sure if it’s Dd or Da. Suspension of favorable. Usually the Company Commander does this

Response by MSG Thomas Currie made May 20 at 2018 1:10 AM

MSG Thomas Currie — Sun, 20 May 2018 01:10:36 -0400

If someone above you in the chain of command TOLD YOU to initiate a flag on the soldier, there are three possibilities:
1) Whoever told you is screwing with you
2) Whoever told you is testing you to see what you do
or
3) Whoever told you is an idiot
It is possible that 1 or 2 might be combined with #3.

You do not have the authority to initiate a flag on a soldier -- a flag is an official personnel action, so only the commander can do that.
Lacking any other cause, there is no way that a flag would be approved for a soldier who simply failed to meet an informal unit standard. If that soldier meets the Army standards for physical fitness, you cannot take formal actions against him just because he doesn't go above-and-beyond.

Response by 1SG Mark Reed made May 23 at 2018 3:34 PM

1SG Mark Reed — Wed, 23 May 2018 15:34:55 -0400

As a 1SG there wouldn't be a flag pursued as long as my troop meets 600-9 and passed his APFT. Simple as that, sound like some pin head officer is puffing his chest to me.

Response by 1SG J Rafael Morales made May 24 at 2018 10:53 PM

1SG J Rafael Morales — Thu, 24 May 2018 22:53:26 -0400

Why not help him by putting him on remedial PT. Is it that much of an issue to flag this soldier. How does he performs his other duties? Is he a problem child? Is he sub standard? Good leaders who care will put in the time to help him.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 25 at 2018 7:56 AM

SGM Bill Frazer — Fri, 25 May 2018 07:56:56 -0400

So not going to happen, unless they make a point of it constantly.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2018 5:11 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 May 2018 17:11:58 -0400

You can not flag a soldier for that! Building the motivation back in the Soldier is where you could start..

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2018 10:26 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 May 2018 10:26:47 -0400

AR 600-8 Suspension of favorable personnel actions. IAW this reg you will not be able to flag this solider are any soldier that fails a run, unless it a APFT. You are not authorized to initiate or flag a soldier, that is a Commander's call. Looking to the regulation and it will guide you on how to initiate Council Andrew few Flags. It will also list why flag can be initiated. I recommend counseling the soldier on not completing this run.

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made May 27 at 2018 10:37 AM

SFC Ralph E Kelley — Sun, 27 May 2018 10:37:32 -0400

Unless I'm wrong there is no Army Standard for a 4 mile run, so I think there's got to be more to this story.
Did the soldier go home or return to the unit? Was he dropped from a school? Did he tell someone to screw off? Did he try to convince others to also fall out? Was he counseled (which needed to happen) afterwards?
If so then apply corrective training focused on what he actually did or failed to do OR give him non-judicial punishment OR if those have already done THEN Flag him for that.
If he went to the IG or JAG about being flagged for falling out of a 4 mile run ... Well think about it.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2018 2:57 PM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 May 2018 14:57:18 -0400

With all due respect, Army personnel with this type of mentality are the reason why great soldiers like my husband left the US Army in pursuit of a civilian career. He was an award winning soldier with plenty of accolades to his credit including Squadron Soldier of the Quarter 2xs in a row. ASVAB was 93, high APFT of 323, graduated AIT in the top 5% of his class, spoke a category III foreign language at near native fluency, and received all Excellents at the NCO Academy. He turned down personal recruitment offers from Special Forces, Ranger battalion, and other special programs - I could go on, but won't. The Army was sitting on a gold mine of talent and esprit de corps, but several NCOs with what I would call a "backwards mentality" ran him out! I hope everyone in the CoC does right by this solider (in terms of mentorship, training, and personal development), whatever that is for your unit and situation - I realize we may not be privy here to all of the details. The future of the Army depends on NCOs to take the lead.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2018 10:21 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 May 2018 22:21:50 -0400

Because this is not something where a Soldier can be flagged. It's supposed to be an esprit de corps run. Issuing a flag, or even attempting to issue a flag, on this Soldier is contradictory to the very meaning of "esprit de corps". It seems to me your command has more problems than fitness.

The B.L.U.F., does this Soldier pass the APFT for their age? If the answer is yes, the Soldier cannot be flagged for APFT failure. If the answer is no, the Soldier can be flagged for APFT failure and certain concessions can be performed and must be considered.

To flag someone for not meeting some arbitrary standard, unenforceable by regulation, is ludacris, at best, and potentially criminal.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2018 2:57 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 31 May 2018 14:57:29 -0400

You cannot FLAG a Soldier for a failure to meet a standard that is not within the AR. Esprit de Corps runs are not listed within 350-1 as a required training event with standards...

Response by SGT Thomas Bentley made Jun 1 at 2018 7:54 AM

SGT Thomas Bentley — Fri, 01 Jun 2018 07:54:23 -0400

Wow I have had some real a-holes as leaders in my two enlistments(11 years between) but you SFC are a real Blue Falcon. I but you have a bunch of real happy soldiers<sarcastic tone> with one or two special brown nosers you take real good care of. Leadership is suppose to be inspiring not disparaging.

Response by SGT Peter Wilks made Jun 3 at 2018 3:12 PM

SGT Peter Wilks — Sun, 03 Jun 2018 15:12:21 -0400

A SFC can't initiate a flag. Period. If the Soldier consistently fails a PT test even after the leader has offered all available assistance and guidance, then it is up to the unit commander, with proper documentation, to initiate appropriate disciplinary actions the commander deems fit.

Response by SSG Branyn Burkhart made Jun 7 at 2018 5:59 PM

SSG Branyn Burkhart — Thu, 07 Jun 2018 17:59:49 -0400

Wow. Is that really a flaggable offense? I mean I get it if it was for failing a PT test, but not finishing the esprit de corps run? I think the reason you’re having trouble finding info for that kind of flag is because it’s not a flaggable offense. I could be wrong though.

Response by SPC Don Wynn made Jun 8 at 2018 1:57 PM

SPC Don Wynn — Fri, 08 Jun 2018 13:57:35 -0400

My initial thought on this was "as platoon Sgt, why would you want a flag on a member of your unit"? Is there more to this than the falling out on a run? But, most importantly, WHY did he fall out? So much not known here. And from my understanding you can't initiate the flag, it is above your pay grade. So, who got the red ass about the troop falling out and why aren't they doing the flag action?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 9 at 2018 6:05 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 Jun 2018 06:05:32 -0400

Maybe you should flag yourself for failing this soldier. As an NCO, you’re in charge of training your soldiers. If it’s a repeated behavior of failing anything physical, counsel the soldier and create a plan of action. You’re a SFC in the US Army, don’t let the backbone weaken on your watch.

Back to your question, what transpired wasn’t a flagable offense.

Response by Cpl John Cogswell made Jun 11 at 2018 11:16 AM

Cpl John Cogswell — Mon, 11 Jun 2018 11:16:39 -0400

Stop looking for an administrative procedure for this. Counsel the individual and put them on remedial PT until they bring up their performance.

This can be handled at a low echelon without resorting to bullshit drama.

Response by SSG Ryan Molton made Jun 11 at 2018 3:45 PM

SSG Ryan Molton — Mon, 11 Jun 2018 15:45:00 -0400

There are a lot of details missing. This seems like a failure on the squad leader and team leader. Again unless this is an ongoing thing then build a packet on the guy and when there is enough present it to the commander and he can take it from there.

Response by CPL Chris Mensinger made Jun 14 at 2018 11:36 AM

CPL Chris Mensinger — Thu, 14 Jun 2018 11:36:51 -0400

This explains why the Army has such a difficult time retaining quality folks!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2018 12:33 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 12:33:30 -0400

Ditto above... the only physical training event that you can flag a Soldier for is the APFT. The 4×9 is not an Army Standard anywhere. It is various unit standards. I would recomend just getting the Soldiers NCO's to help him run more.

Response by SFC Ritchie Inns made Jun 22 at 2018 10:30 PM

SFC Ritchie Inns — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 22:30:28 -0400

You won't find it because that's a ridiculous thing to do. If he passes his PT test, that would be hard to uphold. If you're his first line supervisor or PLT SGT, you need to grab your balls and tell whoever to piss off! Part of being an NCO, especially a Senior NCO is to protect your soldiers from idiots in charge who would try to enforce this. This sounds like some Bul!%#& that the 82nd Airborne would do. They did this kind of crap back in the early 80s. And if you're the one trying to enforce it, shame on you!

Response by LTC James McElreath made Jun 24 at 2018 12:03 AM

LTC James McElreath — Sun, 24 Jun 2018 00:03:35 -0400

I am not sure what you have done for this soldier, but sometimes just letting another cares about them may go a long way instead of jumping on him with both feet. I realize that you need to get the young man to come around quickly, but give it a try. It also doesn't have to be you.

Response by MAJ David Wallace made Jun 30 at 2018 12:03 PM

MAJ David Wallace — Sat, 30 Jun 2018 12:03:20 -0400

Back in the old days, we'd call that a chickensh*t flag. If higher HQs wants a flag, let them initiate it.
I had a similar issue when I was a Bradley company commander in Germany. An incoming battalion commander bragged about his 3 tours at the Pentagon. Ever the smartass grunt, I asked him "Gee, sir...who did you piss off??" He didn't appreciate that much, and said "Well, many people consider that an honor."

Fast forward to the next gunnery rotation. The battalion commander needs a new gunner, so he attempts to recruit one of the best gunners from my company. The gunner, a sergeant, politely declines. This infuriates the BC, so he goes after the SGT. The sergeant was a model Soldier and had no issues with job performance or PT. He was carrying a few extra pounds and that gave the BC an excuse to bore in on him. He badgered me to chapter him out of the Army because he was a "disgusting fat sh*t," even though the same BC wanted this same SGT to be his gunner. I refused to do his dirty work and told him to do it himself. So, then he started applying the hatchet to me. He short changed me on an OER and left out quite a few accomplishments that the brigade commander fortunately did not.

Through this ordeal we eventually lost one of the best Bradley gunners and trainers in Germany. It never set well with me and still pisses me off til this day. I gained considerable street creds with my company and built an environment of mutual respect and trust that made our company one of the best in Europe. It wasn't me; it was the awesome Soldiers I served alongside. Don't ever be afraid to stand up for what is right and honorable. Just my two cents...

Response by SGM Ronald Cheatom made Jun 30 at 2018 7:20 PM

SGM Ronald Cheatom — Sat, 30 Jun 2018 19:20:46 -0400

First off, in MY day, you can only move as fast as your slowest soldier. That being said, you give a PT test, and if he can't pass it, you begin all of the corrective actions needed, including extra pt. However, one bad run does not constitute Flag action. What is your REAL problem with this soldier?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2018 12:41 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Jul 2018 12:41:55 -0400

Thank God the army is governed by regulations from top to bottom which applies to all. I observed a situation where a soldiers rank was being vacated after a suspended bust. The batallions policy would be tell the soldier take off his rank where the regulation stated that the soldier must be given a normal hearing and the only way his rank could have been set aside in that situation was if he was awol for thirty days. When the command was challenged thus stopped that practise. The cam told the 1sg's no more will that practise continue. Thank God I was the soldier it happened to and thank God I stood up with the appropriate documentation.....

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2018 12:56 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Jul 2018 12:56:26 -0400

MSG Currie, we cannot say people are idiots, I haven't seen one perfect being as yet so let's give them the benefit of the doubt until we have all of the facts. Look at my situation obviously they didn't know but when confronted with the appropriate regulation they accepted it...

Response by SGM(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 8 at 2018 6:16 PM

SGM(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Jul 2018 18:16:48 -0400

I think you are missing the purpose of a flag(which is why you cant find what you are looking for), i think a bar to re enlist would be a much more approp response..

Response by SGT Donald Croswhite made Jul 8 at 2018 7:32 PM

SGT Donald Croswhite — Sun, 08 Jul 2018 19:32:20 -0400

Yeah that's not a APFT, your training room and S1 are going to face palm you. If you want to do corrective training and run WITH him that would be fine. But please those slinky races are a joke. Don't be a shit head NCO. If he feel out that speaks to your ability to train him. So basically unless he just quit, you'd be flagging your ability as a leader.

Response by SSG Tracy Powell made Jul 10 at 2018 11:13 AM

SSG Tracy Powell — Tue, 10 Jul 2018 11:13:00 -0400

I personally think if you can’t do 4 miles in 36 min there is a problem, I ran 2 miles in 11:05 and could run 10 miles easy without breaking a sweat!

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2018 5:01 PM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Jul 2018 17:01:19 -0400

As a Retired Navy Seabee Chief, I find this question to be UNSAT in so many ways. As a leader you should be concerned with the wellfare of your troops. What are the issues this soldier may have that are preventing him from performing up to par? What can you do to help motivate, assist or uplift to get him were he needs to be. Punishment should always be equal to the offense that was done, not as a hammer to drive someone into making further offenses so you can get rid of them. If that happens then the Leader him/herself has failed!

Response by SFC George Simons made Jul 18 at 2018 12:48 AM

SFC George Simons — Wed, 18 Jul 2018 00:48:04 -0400

A 9 minute mile is slow, okay, l run a 6 minute mile. But as a PSG, I'd put a slow runner in the front rank as a pace person. Did it for many nuggets. Definitely will build their morale

Response by SSG Jorgen Quezada made Jul 20 at 2018 1:35 PM

SSG Jorgen Quezada — Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:35:44 -0400

Sad that the Army has come to this. What happened to assisting the soldier by doing extra pt ? Do a monthly counseling mention the issue and how it need to be fixed. But you as his team leader should be right next to him doing extra PT.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2018 6:58 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Jul 2018 18:58:14 -0400

I suggest you check the regs first. I think you are going towards a very, very wrong path.

Response by MSG David Johnson made Jul 25 at 2018 12:18 PM

MSG David Johnson — Wed, 25 Jul 2018 12:18:49 -0400

I'm curious as to the outcome of your issue, this is something that a lot of Senior NCO's have weighed in on. So jus to curious.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jul 25 at 2018 1:51 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Wed, 25 Jul 2018 13:51:39 -0400

AR600-8-2. Although I do not think this will be supported under appeal. Your Jag and reatentio. Should review the command policy if one exists. 4 nine. Unite miles is achievable by anyone who is healthy (and under 60 of course). The section Sgt. Should be able to get this Soldier straight. Thank you for your service.

Response by SSG Gregg Mourizen made Jul 26 at 2018 1:01 AM

SSG Gregg Mourizen — Thu, 26 Jul 2018 01:01:07 -0400

I remember one of these runs when I was at Ft Bliss. It was about 4 miles. Course not really set. Long story short, one of the fastest runners in the battalion was the pace setter (no clue how to run slow). First mile was more of a 5 minute mile. Half the participants fell out by this point. By the end of the second mile my injuries had overtaken me and I fell behind. By the end of the third mile, I had no clue where they had gone. Last mile, I found them heading in another direction completely. While many were still coming in from parts unknown, the Battalion was formed up and dismissed for personal hygiene. I remember seeing runners still coming in while I left. 25% of those that fell out were already at the barrack cleaned and shaved.
Sound familiar to anyone?

You need to ask yourself, are you singling somebody out for with this flag for low morale? bad physical condition? bad attitude? These are all leadership issues and failing to trying to address the source of the problem, reflects poorly on you and your leadership.
You need to find the root of the problem and try to fix it. Do you have your documentation? Remedial training? Has any real effort other than you shout, he listens, occurred?
Rather than taking a nuke to a knife fight, you have a lot of foot work looking for the real issues (flaggable or not). Anything less will just lower the moral of the rest of your troops, and serve no positive motivator to the individual involved.

Response by SSG Dave Johnston made Jul 30 at 2018 2:10 AM

SSG Dave Johnston — Mon, 30 Jul 2018 02:10:18 -0400

Because you cannot flag a soldier for not completing a "Fun Run"; doesn't matter what the "pace" may or may not have been, a "flag". is not justified, and JAG will eat you alive if you attempt it. In all the years I served, and the various units I've been assigned to, NEVER, have I heard of a soldier being "flagged' for failure to complete a "Fun Run".

Now the question arises, is 'Command' attempting to be heavy handed with this particular Soldier or is there more than one Soldier to be 'disciplined'? Your query doesn't say; so be more specific please. Did the Soldier drop out the minute the command "Double Time" was given, or did the soldier make the attempt for some distance before falling out? Did you ask the soldier why they didn't complete the run that same day[medical issues, pace, Hung over], or is this action command directed?

Response by MAJ Charles Cozzens made Jul 30 at 2018 10:50 AM

MAJ Charles Cozzens — Mon, 30 Jul 2018 10:50:02 -0400

Something is rotten in Denmark. A higher link in the chain needs to take ownership of this. This is a non issue unless there are many other issues with this sm. I get it that someone is after something else.

Response by SFC David Pope, MBA made Jul 31 at 2018 5:36 PM

SFC David Pope, MBA — Tue, 31 Jul 2018 17:36:18 -0400

You can't flag a soldier for falling out of a Non-APFT run. You can only be flagged on something you are graded for. I know the army has changed since I retired, but I don't think that has changed. If somehow you higher ups were able to flag the soldier, he would have an IG complaint that would get a commander released from command in my day.

Response by CWO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2018 9:43 PM

CWO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Aug 2018 21:43:08 -0400

I truly enjoy being a Marine on this page.

Response by LCpl Michael Cappello made Aug 5 at 2018 9:52 AM

LCpl Michael Cappello — Sun, 05 Aug 2018 09:52:15 -0400

Are you frigging kidding me? You make it sound as if that person failed a PFT. How frigging petty can the Army get. So damned glad I chose the Corps over the Army. I couldn't have dealt with such people as they seem to be. Since I have joined this site, I have seen more petty, small minded, out for your own damn self, unprofessional, idiotic, piss poor military bearing, crap from INDIVIDUALS (no concept of team work or Esprit de Corps) who are taking up space in the freaking Army. WTF is up with you people? Don't get me wrong. I have seen some damn fine soldiers (Army) on here too. Professional Warriors. People I would be proud to serve alongside. But the majority, by a large margin, of piece of garbage individuals are Army. I would love to see, whoever it is that is making you flag this person, try life in the Corps. I guarantee their bitch ass would have never made it. I pity your unit.

Response by SPC Franklin McKown made Aug 6 at 2018 1:58 AM

SPC Franklin McKown — Mon, 06 Aug 2018 01:58:54 -0400

Doesn't the NCO cadre use spec 4s for that any more?

Response by COL John Hudson made Aug 10 at 2018 10:46 AM

COL John Hudson — Fri, 10 Aug 2018 10:46:43 -0400

From The IG Desk: I am not personally aware of any regulation sanctioning a flagging action for a non-regulatory issue. Absent any input as to whether 'attitude' came into play, I would need more specific detail concerning why any member of the COC believes they have the authority to issue such an action not part of a 'regulatory physical fitness for record' event. Any COC individual involved in this particular issue would be "WELL ADVISED" to seek out your local Inspector General for guidance PRIOR to initiating such action.

Response by MSgt Robert Walters made Aug 11 at 2018 1:05 AM

MSgt Robert Walters — Sat, 11 Aug 2018 01:05:45 -0400

WTF sounds like a Dumb & Dumber question.

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Aug 19 at 2018 7:54 PM

MAJ Byron Oyler — Sun, 19 Aug 2018 19:54:44 -0400

https://www.duffelblog.com/2018/04/vincent-donofrio-gets-first-full-night-sleep-31-years/ Duffleblog I hope...

Vincent D'Onofrio gets first full night of sleep in 31 years — Duffel Blog

GRAMERCY PARK, New York — After the recent passing of actor and military icon R. Lee Ermey, Full Metal Jacket co-star Vincent D’Onofrio has announced that he actually slept for eight continuous hours, a feat he has not achieved since filming with him in 1987. D’Onofrio, famous for playing the pathetic Marine recruit nicknamed Private …

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2018 9:22 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Aug 2018 21:22:01 -0400

Flag his commander and/or 1SG, this is retarded...

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 1 at 2018 9:02 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 01 Sep 2018 21:02:13 -0400

KA-KAWWWWWW KA-KAWWWWWWWW! QUICK SOMEONE TELL THE CHEIF OF STAFF AND GET THIS MAN A MSM!!! True leadership. Brings great credit upon himself, his unit the “Blue Falconeers” & the United States Army.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2018 8:53 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Sep 2018 08:53:23 -0400

This, this here is why numbers are dwindling for maintaining the force, it is ignorant stuff like this.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2018 12:19 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Sep 2018 12:19:47 -0400

Is this the first time? Is there Soldier in good health? Remedial PT might be the answer and not disciplinary action. However, straggling could be covered under Article 134.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2018 7:39 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Sep 2018 07:39:58 -0400

Had to double check.....thought for a minute I was on Duffle Blog.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 11 at 2018 8:41 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Sep 2018 20:41:58 -0400

The floggings will continue, until morale improves! Is there a legitimate medical reason for a flag? Other than that, what the CPT said..

Response by MAJ Victor Alarcon made Sep 13 at 2018 11:30 AM

MAJ Victor Alarcon — Thu, 13 Sep 2018 11:30:03 -0400

Before any punishment is issued, check why he was unable to complete the task. My experience has been that over 90 % of the time it was due to injury.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2018 2:57 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Sep 2018 14:57:36 -0400

Does not sound like a flagable offence.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Sep 15 at 2018 7:52 AM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Sat, 15 Sep 2018 07:52:12 -0400

This one is a bit old, but my first response would be to show me in the AR's were failing a Esprit De Corp run is grounds to initiate a flag. While the BN/Brigade/Division can and do set additional standards that would be grounds for counseling and even mentioning in a eval, that does not give them the right to flag a soldiers records for actions not listed in the AR's.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Sep 15 at 2018 2:10 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Sat, 15 Sep 2018 14:10:24 -0400

So the 4 miles in 36min (9 min/mile) is a 18th Airborne Corps written standard. I can't remember a soldier being flagged for it specifically. It was just hell on them until they did it. If a current 101st or 82d person could corroborate that.

1994 The Ordnance Center and School had a policy that if you fell out of a Brigade run, you'd recieve an APFT the next day, weigh, and tape. You could end up flagged for that, but not the run. Mission accomplished, only AIT students fell out of those.

Response by SGT Jon Creager made Sep 25 at 2018 9:20 AM

SGT Jon Creager — Tue, 25 Sep 2018 09:20:23 -0400

What an ass, you want to do that. Sometimes people do have something called a virus than may have been making them sick. Other times is something more physical. Reason I say this is I recently found why my side had always hurt on runs. I have a muscle group that has been injured so many times its calcified. Not saying this is the soldiers problem, but no need to be a fricking jerk. Yea build some hate in your company!!

Response by CW2 Jalistair B made Sep 26 at 2018 9:55 PM

CW2 Jalistair B — Wed, 26 Sep 2018 21:55:05 -0400

Umm, it was 6 years and 40 pounds ago that I was in the army so I need a bit of a catch-up crash course here to get me up to speed. Let's start with the basics shall we? What is this thing call R U N??? I am unfamiliar with this term.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 27 at 2018 5:07 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Sep 2018 05:07:50 -0400

I wonder why the Army can't keep people.

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 29 at 2018 8:56 PM

CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Sep 2018 20:56:51 -0400

How many Soldiers are in your unit?
(Hint...it’s less than 2 and more than none)

Response by SPC Jonathan Stull made Oct 1 at 2018 10:05 AM

SPC Jonathan Stull — Mon, 01 Oct 2018 10:05:02 -0400

My son was in the sandbox. While there, they were told no official PT testing or scoring would take place. (Came from the Commander of the operation.)
His First Sgt. or PL Decided to do it anyway. (Can't remember which.)
My son got flagged for not passing his sit ups.
I told him to go to his chain of command and fight it. He didn't do that, so when he returned to the states, they were moving forward with chaptering him out!!! His Squad Leader and other NCOs fought for him, then he was given another chance. He did pass, after passing his fist re-test, the Fist Sgt. Said it wasn't official and wouldn't pull the flag and blocked his pass for a 4 day weekend, then scheduled him for a re-test the next day after. Again he passed, and the PL and First Sgt. finally released him...
I was furious!!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2018 12:12 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Oct 2018 12:12:05 -0400

You all can stop commenting now.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 11 at 2018 9:15 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Oct 2018 21:15:29 -0400

Why would you want to?

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 15 at 2018 11:41 AM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 15 Oct 2018 11:41:42 -0400

This sounds like you need to initiate a code red

Response by SPC Casey Ashfield made Oct 15 at 2018 6:27 PM

SPC Casey Ashfield — Mon, 15 Oct 2018 18:27:50 -0400

Whoever instructed you to flag a soldier for failing a "fun run" needs to remove their head from their third point of contact. I don't even believe there is a NJP regulation for intentionally failing. Which I have seen many soldiers do on not for record runs.

Response by SrA John Monette made Oct 15 at 2018 7:07 PM

SrA John Monette — Mon, 15 Oct 2018 19:07:58 -0400

did he not complete or not participate? big difference

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 15 at 2018 7:43 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 15 Oct 2018 19:43:52 -0400

The army standard is 4×36. A lot of units try to do the whole 4x32 thing but of course that's another made up standard that's not real. However, it is not ridiculous to flag a soldier that is in combat arms that cannot sustain a 9 minute per mile pace for 4 miles. It's more ridiculous that some leaders see this as being acceptable to not meet this standard. Physical fitness is what keeps us alive. I could care less how smart you are if you cant meet the height and weight standards nor pass a pt test. We are professionals and we get paid to stay in shape. It is unprofessional to not be able to do your job and still expect the same paycheck as everyone else and that is exactly who we need to get rid of. Theres too many soldiers that get away with showing up and going home without exerting any effort or making any effort to get better. I get it, some people aren't "runners" but this is a profession that leans on physical fitness to lead soldiers. I'd hate to be a member of that persons squad and do a squad run that isnt faster than 9 minutes per mile. We are the top 1% of society and people find it ridiculous to uphold standards? Blows my mind.

Response by 1SG Clifford Barnes made Oct 21 at 2018 9:34 PM

1SG Clifford Barnes — Sun, 21 Oct 2018 21:34:18 -0400

Never heard of it

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Oct 24 at 2018 12:13 PM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:13:31 -0400

This is a fight I had to fight way more often I should have had to. There are standards and goals. The Army sets the standard, units can set goals which go beyond the standard. The 4 mile 36 minute "standard" is actually a unit goal. It is a VERY common unit goal, and it IS a standard for some SCHOOLS, but it is not a standard and a Soldier cannot be flagged for it. A Soldier CAN be counseled for poor performance and introduced into a special PT population, however failure to meet a unit goal is grounds for neither flag, nor bar.

If the unit is hell-bent, they will USUALLY utilize the strategy of doing this run every month (or week!) And then getting repeated counselings for poor performance, but that is shitty leadership.

Response by Sgt Ron Harris made Oct 24 at 2018 11:58 PM

Sgt Ron Harris — Wed, 24 Oct 2018 23:58:10 -0400

I never did see the big hype of running 4-5 miles in a given time. I ran short distances pretty fast, long distances I sucked! I had polio when I was a kid, both legs and rt. arm. After I learned to walk again, I rode a bicycle for therapy. In H.S., the 440 yd run was ok, the 880 yd. killed me. My legs hurt and my lungs burned like fire. My 1st. yr. in service, I was in an auto wreck that almost killed me. I spent 28 days in a coma ( the car ran over my head and rt. shoulder), a broken neck (C5 & C6), 9 broken ribs off the sternum, punctured lung, ruptured stomach, L2 in the spine messed up, both knees split oped to the knee cap all the way across, a broken rt. leg, and shattered rt. ankle. I "woke up" on 1 Jan., 1967. The VA hostpital I was in tossed me out on 9 Jan.,'67. 23 months after the wreck, I was shipped to Vietnam, I was on medical profile cause I couldn't run. "Hey, ya won't get shot in the back!" 16 1/2 months later, I returned from 'nam. I was in 19th TASS, Red Horse, and 3rd FMS. I could walk a "mile in 10" for a couple of miles, but I couldn't run it. At NO time did we EVER have to run 4-5 miles!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2018 5:53 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Oct 2018 17:53:22 -0400

Army has a standard. APFT. If he fails that standard, then you can flag him.

Response by MSG Robert Ford made Oct 28 at 2018 7:50 PM

MSG Robert Ford — Sun, 28 Oct 2018 19:50:01 -0400

First, that is not a flag offense... maybe a corrective training offense ... you and couple NCO get out and run him extra 5 times a week to get him trained up for that run... example over a nine month period all nine of my soldiers came to work late so when the last one came late ... I had a meeting at the end of the duty day... I told them I know I discussed not being late in there initial counseling... so for the next week all of them had to report to work at 0500 hrs in the morning... duty day started at 0700... I came in with them to ensure it not happen again... and it did not. That's corrected traning...

Response by SFC Richard Desrosiers made Oct 30 at 2018 8:11 PM

SFC Richard Desrosiers — Tue, 30 Oct 2018 20:11:32 -0400

It is. I just wonder why ur upset with the time he completed 4 miles. It apparently wasn't the ApFT.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2018 4:19 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 02 Nov 2018 16:19:39 -0400

What are you flagging the Soldier for? There has to be a good reason to flag them and this does not appear to be one. Ok, they could not do this run at the pace? To initiate a flag, you have to fail an APFT, not meet ABCP standards, be under investigation or have law enforcement issues. At best, this sounds like a counseling statement. If this is because the Soldier just quit, then the counseling statement should reflect that. I understand this is coming from your higher ups but, this seems to be WAY out of line. If the issue is the Soldier is a poor runner, then help them get better. If the Soldier just quit, that is a motivation issue. Some people just cannot run very fast.

Response by SFC Wendell Pruitt made Nov 5 at 2018 11:26 AM

SFC Wendell Pruitt — Mon, 05 Nov 2018 11:26:20 -0500

That you are even considering a flag based on what you say tells me you have a greater need than you are addressing, A flag comes about through careful documentation of why a Soldier should be removed from having any favorable actions considered, being able to reenlist or possibly as a start point for elimination from the Service... Any clear document trail with supporting facts of failure to meet or maintain Army standards, Physical limitations, Personal character flaws or misconduct can form the basis for initiating a flag if documented over time. Only the more severe one time events, actions or situations result in a flag. My suggestion to you is go see your 1sg and ask him to get you on the right path to understand how your day to day responsibilities and interactions provide what you should have been doing with this soldier all along, since its very likely you had indicators long ago of this issue and likely did not take the proper course of action leaving you now trying to make up ground... As an SFC you should have long ago learned the flag process is an administrative tool available to Commanders in maintaining the quality and consistency of the soldier of the Command, not a punishment or solution for minor issues that have dozens of ways to correct the situation.

Response by SFC Quinn Ed made Nov 6 at 2018 4:20 PM

SFC Quinn Ed — Tue, 06 Nov 2018 16:20:03 -0500

SSG Managua, good point! As a leader and an NCO some remedial training doesn’t sound like a bad idea, but of course it involves your time as well!

Response by SFC Edmund Garrard made Nov 8 at 2018 1:39 PM

SFC Edmund Garrard — Thu, 08 Nov 2018 13:39:27 -0500

If there is no other problems with this soldier. He be counseled on why he needs to be able to complete the run. That is why most runs like this have trail vehicles in back of the run to pick up personnel who are unable to complete the run. If the chain of command got bent out of shape over this.they need to re-evaluate their leadership style

Response by SSG Brian Wilber made Nov 11 at 2018 10:45 PM

SSG Brian Wilber — Sun, 11 Nov 2018 22:45:16 -0500

It seems to me that this is a motivation problem. Since it is the leaders' job to provide motivation, perhaps it is the leadership who should be flagged for dereliction of duty.

Response by CAPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2018 10:48 PM

CAPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Nov 2018 22:48:34 -0500

Okay, this is obviously an Army thing and I probably won’t understand, but what exactly did the soldier do wrong?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2018 6:33 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 21 Nov 2018 18:33:50 -0500

In my opinion; This right here, is where we as leaders, are failing our lower enlisted. Units are so quick to push paperwork and essentially punish our junior enlisted. But if leadership realized that if we actually focused more on leading and MENTORING, the paperwork would slowly start to fade away. You shouldn't flag this soldier for failing the 4-Mile Esprit De Corps run, you should flag the COC of that soldier. Because to me, He/She lacks the proper leadership their NCO is obligated to provide. Per the NCO Creed

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2018 11:27 PM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Nov 2018 23:27:05 -0500

You can't do that.
Flag are for formal legal actions. UCMJ, APFT, HT/WT, pending administrative separation and such...

It is actually not a violation of Army regs to fall out of a run, unless that run happens to be the 2-miler of an APFT. If you want to order him to run with you every other day after work (or something like that which reasonably constitutes corrective/additional training - not hazing) then you could do that... But unless there is an underlying legal issue, you can't flag someone for failing to complete a run....

Also, this is why units have SJAs - so you can ASK before you threaten some consequence that won't hold up against the regs.

(and save the LT comments. I wasn't always an O)

Response by SGM Thomas Terebesi Sr made Nov 24 at 2018 9:22 AM

SGM Thomas Terebesi Sr — Sat, 24 Nov 2018 09:22:31 -0500

You can flag a soldier for failing the semi annual APFT. That is in the regulation. There is nothing I know of that allows the command to flag a soldier for what you just expressed.

Response by SGT Frank Pritchett made Nov 24 at 2018 6:36 PM

SGT Frank Pritchett — Sat, 24 Nov 2018 18:36:51 -0500

Why am I not surprised to hear this out of todays NCO's, they rise up through the ranks so fast that reality hasn't had a chance to catch up. an Esprit De Corps run is a moral booster or a confidence run not to be mandatory except by participation only. SFC Fauth you really need to bone up on your NCO Guide Book "FM-22-7" This should be mandatory reading for all NCO's as well as the NCO Creed.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2018 10:28 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 27 Nov 2018 22:28:31 -0500

Good afternoon SFC...... there is no flag to be initiated........ the fun run is not part of the army standards, its another add to that someone came up with. The army standard is 2 mile run. If the Soldier failed Apft, height/weight or have adverse actions, then by all means initiate the flag.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2018 10:33 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 27 Nov 2018 22:33:04 -0500

If I were you, I would use my stripes and rockers and let the commander know he can't flag. I will tell you once that Soldier go to JAG and they see the paperwork, they will make paper planes out of it......

Response by SGT Kenneth Stelly made Dec 4 at 2018 6:56 AM

SGT Kenneth Stelly — Tue, 04 Dec 2018 06:56:03 -0500

4 miles, 36 minutes, is that not a snail pace?

Response by CWO4 Brook Kelsey made Dec 4 at 2018 8:57 PM

CWO4 Brook Kelsey — Tue, 04 Dec 2018 20:57:20 -0500

Article 134: Straggling; “Any service member who straggles (Lags behind) when accompanying (his/her) organization on maneuver, march or any other similar exercises may be changed with a violation of Article 134 paragraph 107.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2018 9:58 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Dec 2018 21:58:15 -0500

Flagging for falling out or refusing to do a fun run. Sounds like a good way to kill moral even more.

As a senior NCO you should know by now that it's your job not to just impose flags on soldiers but find out what the underlying issue is with the soldier. Has he been sucking at PT, does he have family issues, is the unit themselves causing an environment that doesn't support growth and development where the soldier doesn't want to partake.

Let's not go and start counseling and punishing soldiers for things like fun runs. It's not a requirement. Have a chat, find out what's going on and drive on.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2018 9:12 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Dec 2018 21:12:04 -0500

Get a grip.do not be a JERK

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2018 6:35 AM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Dec 2018 06:35:05 -0500

What's it say about your leadership skills? Instead of building up the substandard troop your wanting to flag him.
Take him out on a run. Build him up, knocking him down doesn't do shit. Even if he is a shit bag.
What's the saying, " the chain is strong as its weakest link."

Response by SSG Max Klinestiver made Dec 13 at 2018 1:37 PM

SSG Max Klinestiver — Thu, 13 Dec 2018 13:37:05 -0500

This kid needs counseling and the unit from the Squad Leader to the Battalion Commander need to find a new job. This is a example of very bad leadership from the top down... Very Sad..

Response by 1SG Michael Farrell made Dec 17 at 2018 12:42 PM

1SG Michael Farrell — Mon, 17 Dec 2018 12:42:29 -0500

Sounds like some one has confused the standards in the Ranger Brigade with the regular Army. Failure to meet training standards is a reason for a flag; just be prepared to have it challenged and for the IG embarrass everybody. Is this standard written? Are all soldiers unable to complete the run routinely flagged? We can go on and on forever about this, but this looks very much like a whim instead of the action of a leadership team.

Response by SFC Carlos Cruz made Dec 23 at 2018 6:48 PM

SFC Carlos Cruz — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 18:48:29 -0500

SFC Matt Faith their is no reason for you as a NCOIC to Flag this Soldier for a issue the only requirement is a simpler counseling’s. The purpose of a noncommissioned officer is to provide purpose direction and motivation therefore this soldier require one of them it will be illegal to Flagler soldier for a minor issue due to the lack of motivation from the leader ship.
You must evaluate his situation, determine what is his issue & how to come up with a plan to improve his run. PT alone will n’t improve his run when you only run two miles. This is very unprofessional if this is done when issue like this are handled by lower rank, SQ leadership.

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Dec 30 at 2018 10:12 AM

SFC Robert Walton — Sun, 30 Dec 2018 10:12:02 -0500

SFC Private RallyPoint Member From one SFC to Another, More information is needed for this issue However if your going to flag this person for falling out of a Esprit De Corps Run. FLAG YOUR SELF AND ALL OF THE SUBORDINATES in your platoon every one of you failed this Soldier you should have encouraged, dragged, carried, what ever it takes to build the team and not fail. Not to mention as a leader I never ever allowed others to tell me how to train or punish a Soldier of mine unless it was something I had NO Control over and even then I would bring it up to the Platoon Leader and COC before I tried start counseling for a flag.
Now with that said Start with a counseling session and copies of all his former counseling leading up to this point with a recommendation of a Flag (if he has anything in the past to support a flag) you do not have the Authority to flag a Soldier only Recommend (Unless the rules have change since 1996). MTC SMFH

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2018 4:23 PM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Dec 2018 16:23:27 -0500

If I were that soldier I would be contacting JAG and IG to file formal harassment charges against the chain and get them investigated. I would also put in for immediate transfer out of that unit. If that soldier is passing APFT and height/weight/tape then falling out of a 4 mile run is just an oh well situation.

Response by Sgt Jude Eschete made Dec 31 at 2018 9:45 AM

Sgt Jude Eschete — Mon, 31 Dec 2018 09:45:36 -0500

Does the soldier pass his APFT? If so, then he is within the Army's prescribed physical fitness standards. A 9-minute mile pace is pretty slow, yes, but most people don't run 4-miles at a time and can't just make a jump to that distance. That pace is a 27-minute 3mile time which would be a minute shy of failing the USMC's 3 mile run, but for 4 miles I would say it's a safe pace, but the difference is, it's only an extra mile for our PFT that we run at a faster pace anyways.

For you guys, you're asking him to double the distance of what he has trained for, and depending on his normal time, doubling the distance could just be the thing that kills his pace.

Our SgtMaj before I got out could run his 3-mile in around 16min. Should he take us on a 6 mile run and expect us to keep an 7 or 8 minute per mile time? We've never trained for that, so I wouldn't be surprised if we had people fall out.

It took me an entire summer of training to run a 12k in an hour, that's a 8min/mi pace. If someone randomly asked me to do something like that, I probably wouldn't make it at a 10min/mi pace had I not trained for it.

Tldr: Is the soldier passing his APTFT? If so, stress how it just looks bad to fall out of spirit runs, but don't flag the guy.

Response by SSG A Miles made Jan 6 at 2019 11:52 AM

SSG A Miles — Sun, 06 Jan 2019 11:52:44 -0500

Assuming that all other avenues have been exhausted, such as remedial PT, get him into the docs to see if there is any medical issues, counseling statements, etc. S-1 would be the best place to start because they have access to the system that imposes flags

Response by SGT Charles Bartell made Jan 9 at 2019 8:05 PM

SGT Charles Bartell — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 20:05:01 -0500

You really had better check with J.A.G before doing somthing that Stupid. Has he been on PROFILE ?
There are time Regs for recovery. Does he meet the P.T. TEST standerd's.
If he does not meet them then you can flag him.
If he is a turd Start keeping correct paper on him, Then chapter him on unsat performance or patrens of miconduct. Some of my past leader ship did not run things by J.A.G. at the startAnd the paper work was sent back so meny time's a real turd got his Honorable Discharge with all the benifits.

Response by LTC James McElreath made Jan 14 at 2019 9:16 PM

LTC James McElreath — Mon, 14 Jan 2019 21:16:33 -0500

All you are going to do is make yourself some real enemies. These days one never knows what is going to make the guy/gal to crack. Try going one on one with this guy and document it as its done.

Response by SSG Aaron Canada made Jan 16 at 2019 1:47 AM

SSG Aaron Canada — Wed, 16 Jan 2019 01:47:43 -0500

Have you been doing monthly counseling? Is being a slacker a normal issue? Do your due diligence with counseling and if he doesn’t improve, bring it to your chain of command and recommend disharge for failure to adapt.

Response by SPC Franklin McKown made Jan 27 at 2019 5:42 PM

SPC Franklin McKown — Sun, 27 Jan 2019 17:42:31 -0500

Are they RIFing guys again? I got kicked out in 93 from that,I had trouble running ,I was unkempt, ROOM was always unacceptable...but MY track and qualifications in weapons and testing took the best on post in 92...it says something I think.

Response by MSG Dan Kilpatrick made Jan 28 at 2019 11:25 AM

MSG Dan Kilpatrick — Mon, 28 Jan 2019 11:25:24 -0500

Unless the UCMJ manual has changed, Article #134 specifically "Straggling", hard to prove but an option.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2019 3:46 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 Feb 2019 15:46:11 -0500

Because it is not in the Reg, SFC, and you should know your regulations by now. I agree with all of the other responders. You and his NCO should see what other issues there are, and if anything, just counsel the soldier with a 4856. If the run is meant to bring about unity, with PT training, then counseling will suffice, with the agreement that there will be an improvement. Rank, age, and previous counseling should be taken into consideration.

Response by SSG Ryan Molton made Feb 10 at 2019 7:42 PM

SSG Ryan Molton — Sun, 10 Feb 2019 19:42:19 -0500

Who is his team leader and squad leader ? Flagging is not necessary and it seems you give up easily! How about identify the issue and help the soldier out ! If it’s PT that’s easy you just have to be a leader and help him. Seems your inexperience causes you to quit when you experience a leadership challenge.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2019 4:14 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 Feb 2019 16:14:00 -0500

I think you may be going about it the wrong way. It’s not like he failed a pt test run. Rethink this before you actually ruin someone’s career.

Hope it never happens to you.......

Response by CPT Keith Whitter made Feb 23 at 2019 10:40 PM

CPT Keith Whitter — Sat, 23 Feb 2019 22:40:22 -0500

Maybe I'm old school, as in over 60, but back in the old days a guy that fell out would have been prompted to return to the formation and complete the run. This is because we would have circled him with the entire formation until he got his s**t together. Then he would have been given the guidon and made to run at the front of the formation with everyone behind him pushing him along.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2019 7:50 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 Feb 2019 07:50:33 -0500

I would say that "Your sucking buttermilk" it's not a PT test. Just maybe you could ask them if they had a bad day.

Response by SSG Omar Ruiz-Canales made Feb 25 at 2019 8:10 AM

SSG Omar Ruiz-Canales — Mon, 25 Feb 2019 08:10:00 -0500

Wait... What?? Is a 4 miler a retention requirement nowadays?? Is that part if the APFT Now??

Response by SGT Josh Samuelson made Mar 4 at 2019 10:44 AM

SGT Josh Samuelson — Mon, 04 Mar 2019 10:44:40 -0500

Yes flag him or punish him. You are in the US military and it’s a 4 mile run at a 9 min a mile pace. Stop being soft your job is to destroy the enemy in combat. This is not some easy anyone can do it job for the government and the fact the military has gotten as soft as it is is disrespectful to all the soldiers who fought with their lives to improve themselves in the service. There is no excuse unless he was suffering from an injury. In my day we would rerun that at lunch and at COB everyday until a soldier was able to maintain the minimum. Your not talking of a soldier not making a 2 mile run sub 13 min, we are talking a 4 mile accordion 9 min a mile pace. Embarrassing, he and his leadership should be humiliated after this.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2019 8:28 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 Mar 2019 08:28:31 -0500

Flag would not be specific to the run but based on the overall character and or performance of the individual. The run would have to be one more of many significantly strong signs to leaders that the individual is not Army maternal. That said, if that is all the issue is then those leaders need to be flagged, Barred, reduced, and sent home doing the duffel bag drag.

Response by 1SG John Baize made Mar 14 at 2019 12:53 PM

1SG John Baize — Thu, 14 Mar 2019 12:53:05 -0400

I can't believe we are even entertaining this question. This is not a regulatory requirement. Leave the kid alone, there must be other ways to handle this.

Response by SSG Ray Elliott made Mar 16 at 2019 8:31 AM

SSG Ray Elliott — Sat, 16 Mar 2019 08:31:46 -0400

Unless things have changed since I was in this isn't a cause for a flag. There are things you can do: Like assign extra remedial PT to get him up to unit standards, but a flag is reserved for failure to meet Army wide established minimums. Work with the soldier to get him up to the fitness level of the rest of the unit. Keep in mind he could have just been not feeling well that day, and had a medical reason for dropping out. Give the soldier a time line and goals to meet, and tell him you expect to see him complete the next run.

Response by SGT Paul Casteel made Mar 20 at 2019 8:34 PM

SGT Paul Casteel — Wed, 20 Mar 2019 20:34:36 -0400

Esprit de Corps? Really? I'm pretty sure ridiculous punishments are not part of achieving that. BOHICA is a thing for a reason. Don't be that "leader".

Response by PO2 David Ball made Mar 21 at 2019 8:10 PM

PO2 David Ball — Thu, 21 Mar 2019 20:10:41 -0400

Is this something he or she was "required" for a PRT or whatever in heck you Are Not Really Mature Yet idiots grad?

Response by LCpl Kenneth Heath made Mar 23 at 2019 3:55 AM

LCpl Kenneth Heath — Sat, 23 Mar 2019 03:55:09 -0400

Look up these things in the dictionary :
'Esprit de Corps'
'Idiot in Charge'

I'd laugh in your face, regardless of rank, if you threatened to write me up for not maintaining your personally selected arbitrary standard on a motivational 'fun run'... schmuck!

Response by SFC Mary Patterson made Mar 23 at 2019 12:35 PM

SFC Mary Patterson — Sat, 23 Mar 2019 12:35:33 -0400

This is silliness beyond words. Esprit de corps runs are just stupid. I don't mind doing a run on my own, but see no benefit to this kind of run. And punishing someone for dropping out won't do anything to improve any one's morale.

Response by CPL Brian Clouser made Mar 31 at 2019 4:48 PM

CPL Brian Clouser — Sun, 31 Mar 2019 16:48:32 -0400

I'm glad I'm out if the Army has nothing better to do than flagged an EN for not making a run that by definition suppose to promote comradeship. If this is a Command policy then it's a moral killer I hate to see your unit re-enlistment numbers. Amry policy is you flagged a soldier for two reasons 1) they fail the "tape" test or 2) they failed the PT test. Anything else came down for Command

Response by CWO4 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2019 4:15 PM

CWO4 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Apr 2019 16:15:20 -0400

It's a performance issue. Perhaps counsel the Soldier on an US Army required form. In my days, if a Marine fails a ruck march, we simply set an expectation and provide him/her a counseling sheet or letter of intent to address the issue. I would normally assigned the Marine to a mentor so the matter can be rectified. My role as a Marine Commander is to set up our Marines, Sailors, etc for success, not buried them in paperwork.

This way they can see if you actually care about their well-being and their career/lifestyle. We don't make any attempt to breed shit birds in the service, we breed warriors who are bright, mature with commanding leadership attributes.

Response by SSG Davis Vo made Apr 25 at 2019 8:07 PM

SSG Davis Vo — Thu, 25 Apr 2019 20:07:52 -0400

The only thing you might be able to do is a counseling statement and pt program

Response by Sgt Keith Dollinger made Apr 26 at 2019 7:55 PM

Sgt Keith Dollinger — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 19:55:00 -0400

Not my Service, but, all respect SFC, if your soldier meets Army physical fitness standards, I have to echo the Army personnel telling you that it's a violation of ARs to take an adverse personnel action on him...

What did the trooper do that made your chain of command decide to target him? If it's not relevant to physical fitness standards, I submit that it would be poor leadership to dodge the true problem just to find an excuse to hammer him. Better to address the real issue instead of throwing out Mickey Mouse REMF bs...

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2019 9:47 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 27 Apr 2019 09:47:59 -0400

This is one of the reasons I retired when I did. As a young Captain, my mentor was COL David Hackworth, a true warrior and one of the most decorated soldiers after Vietnam. He was on his way to General, when he up and retired. When I was struggling as a Company grade officer, I reached out to him for guidance and he gave it to me. He reminded me to remember what I learned as an NCO (Mission first, men always) and to be wary of the perfumed princes masquerading as leaders. So, as a Company and Battalion Commander, I taught my NCOs to train, mentor, coach and if necessary defend their troops from poor leaders, including me. I would never delegate a flagging action to an NCO, especially for something as mundane as running slower than a 9-minute mile. If I wanted to flag someone, I would do the research, the counseling and ensure the troop's leadership was part of the discussion. Unfortunately, this action supports the perfumed prince/princess leadership style and has become far too common in our Army.

Response by LTC Felipe Lara made Apr 27 at 2019 3:51 PM

LTC Felipe Lara — Sat, 27 Apr 2019 15:51:10 -0400

Agree with most of the comments, you can’t do it. You can call your local IG and ask for clarification that will keep you out of trouble with the boss. Was my favorite job as a former IG.

Response by SSG James N. made Apr 28 at 2019 3:20 PM

SSG James N. — Sun, 28 Apr 2019 15:20:08 -0400

What kind of soldier is this? You give no evidence of any malfeasance except dropping from a stupid caterpillar run where the front moves easily, yet teh back has to run a lot harder hence the LOSS OF THE 9 MINUTE pace.
What kind of shit NCO are you that you come here to ask this garbage instead of looking yourself at the god damn Legal building? Are you that incompetent yourself? Fuck me running, what a shitbird!

Response by LCpl Steve Smith made Apr 28 at 2019 7:43 PM

LCpl Steve Smith — Sun, 28 Apr 2019 19:43:45 -0400

Damn! Glad I was in the Marine Corps instead of your Army unit... I was in 3/5 a Grunt unit and the only time I've heard of shit like this is when senior ranking NCO, SNCO or higher and officer took a personal disliking to them and wanted to fuck up their career or were working on trying to kick them out...is that what this is really about here? Because it looks very personal to me...Hate to be a soldier.

Response by LTC Joseph George made Apr 29 at 2019 11:37 AM

LTC Joseph George — Mon, 29 Apr 2019 11:37:17 -0400

Not a PT Test, not a requirement, no flag. What you have is poor leadership from the top, a lack of "Esprit-de-Corps" in the ranks, poor judgement on your part and those above you. Now that having been said, what is the soldiers abilities to complete tasks given? What is his physical statement have to say about him? Was he ill? Is he just that shitbag of a person that has no military bearing? This post goes to show how far leadership has fallen, the unnecessary lengthy meetings, the inability to ask questions, the inability of the NCO ranks that perform the training and evaluation of such soldiers. There is a lack of quality training in today's Army and most soldiers know their leaders will not be there to evaluate training. Therefore no UCMJ/NJP can be taken against a soldier who falls out of a "Fun Run". If as a leader you are there, training and evaluating your soldiers effectively, ensuring they are physically, mentally, and technically fit for their job/MOS then your only recourse is a counseling statement. If you as their "First Line Supervisor" has failed in training in any of these areas, you should be getting the counseling statement. If the person is a bad egg and never finishes tasks, why have you not gotten him out of the service? The biggest failure in this situation is you, you failed your soldiers.

Response by SGT Frank Pritchett made Apr 29 at 2019 9:13 PM

SGT Frank Pritchett — Mon, 29 Apr 2019 21:13:58 -0400

Since when did the 4 mile run become mandatory?. I don't think it is the APFT Fitness Regulation and if was I sure a lot of E-7's and E-8's wouldn't make it.

Response by SFC Kenneth Kreps made Apr 30 at 2019 9:33 AM

SFC Kenneth Kreps — Tue, 30 Apr 2019 09:33:43 -0400

I've been retired for over thirty years, and never have i heard such a ridiculous request. Even during my 22 years of service. Put on your leadership britches Sergeant and stand up for your soldier. Unless he is a real slacker on a regular basis, i.e. failing AFPT, sloppy, late for work, doesn't know or do his job. then there is no reason to flag a soldier for failing to complete an esprit run. Look up the Word ESPRIT. it gives you the answer!

Response by SFC Kenneth Kreps made Apr 30 at 2019 10:02 AM

SFC Kenneth Kreps — Tue, 30 Apr 2019 10:02:23 -0400

Put on your leadership britches Sergeant. This is not a flagging matter, it's a leadership one. Don't take the easy way, take the positive leadership way. If you're doing your job, you know all about this soldier's performance background, so deal with it. Do not allow another to sway your leadership ability. If he's a slacker, do your job and fix it. If he's not, then keep moving forward. Look up the term Esprit De Corps, then determine if flagging him fits into into that definition.

Response by 1SG Richard DeBilzan made Apr 30 at 2019 11:44 PM

1SG Richard DeBilzan — Tue, 30 Apr 2019 23:44:06 -0400

Is he sick? Did he go on a drinking binge last night? Did he just have leg day in the gym yesterday? Seriously?! Lighten the F up if this isn’t a recurring pattern. Unless the regs have changed you can’t flag him for this run, only failure on the APFT. Whoever is directing this needs to get laid!

Response by John Alward made May 1 at 2019 7:57 AM

John Alward — Wed, 01 May 2019 07:57:57 -0400

Seriously? How will doing that help Esprit de corps? Why don't you and maybe some others work out with him and run with him to help him get his times down?

Response by 1SG Ernest Stull made May 2 at 2019 7:21 PM

1SG Ernest Stull — Thu, 02 May 2019 19:21:56 -0400

When I was a 1sgt my co wanted me to give out an article 15 to a soldier about ever third day. I was his 1sgt for about 18 months. During OP shield and storm his mindset changed. How did I deal with him I would ask him for what and he could never tell me. In your case you must just tell your chain of command there is no basis for a flag. I recommend that you first find out why he fell out and then administer remedial training if necessary.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2019 11:44 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 May 2019 11:44:18 -0400

Gotta be a joke.
Hey private, go down to the S3 shop and get us some grid squares. After that, cruise on by the aviation POL and get us some rotor wash.
Hey SFC, flag that soldier for falling out of a fun run.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2019 2:52 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 07 May 2019 02:52:58 -0400

to answer your question originally. Article 134 UCMJ Straggling. I would recommend counseling the Soldier initially on it then going from there. Its your Soldier and I support the fact that you are upholding standards. Especially with the new promotion system the Army is going to where you have to board everyone else they are flagged/barred.

Response by SSG Brian G. made May 12 at 2019 10:53 PM

SSG Brian G. — Sun, 12 May 2019 22:53:30 -0400

It's not in there because you cannot flag a soldier for it. It's not a test nor standard. It is not mandatory to perform towards the mission, mission readiness or job readiness. It is not a standard.

Had it been an APFT that was graded for record and the SM fell out, ok, flag away. This AT most rates a counseling statement. Anything more is a toxic failure of leadership. This was nothing more than some overpaid idiot not liking how it looked to see a soldier fall out and got his panties in a twist over it and floated a turd of an idea and flushed down to you to execute.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2019 10:09 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 May 2019 22:09:31 -0400

Who in the fuck can run 27 MPH constantly for 4 miles?? Not even an Olympian can hold that speed. Or am I reading this wrong?

Response by CAPT John Kittler made May 17 at 2019 9:32 PM

CAPT John Kittler — Fri, 17 May 2019 21:32:29 -0400

Maybe because this is not a reason to flag that soldier?
Your PFT regs cover this, but if he passes the PFT, you have no basis for flagging that soldier and whoever is pushing and allowing this needs to have an Article 138 (or similar) thrown on them.
I'd bet my eagle that there is much more going on in the command than just this,
and if they were subordinate to me, I would be all over it. Severe leadership problem.
Esprit de Corps runs are great and were fun to do, but never ever use them or allow them to be used to demean a soldier (sailor, marine, airman) - they are supposed to build morale, not crush it.

Response by PO3 Wayne Hansen made May 19 at 2019 10:03 AM

PO3 Wayne Hansen — Sun, 19 May 2019 10:03:50 -0400

If you're that much of a Dick, look it up by yourself...get used to being by yourself as well, nobody likes you...

Response by SGT Charles Bartell made May 20 at 2019 2:31 PM

SGT Charles Bartell — Mon, 20 May 2019 14:31:38 -0400

Because it iis a Bullshit reason to flag any one.
1. Not every one can run like that.
2. To flag some one for not completing. A M.O.S. REGUIRED traing event or a
P.T. event.
3. Not a legail FLAG. Infact people being flaged for Chicken Shit things like this is one of the meny resions Soldiers learn to hate the Army and ther leader ship.
4. Instead of trying to punish some one for a none actionabe offence. Try to find out why the Solder Did not or was not able to complet the run.
Take into account what his past P.T. test scores for his run. Is this Below or average for his run times.
Or if he just had a bad day. (There was a time that I could run 10 miles at 8 mile and there where still days that I could not run the minume 2 mile for my age group.)
5. Making an example of this Soldier is the wrong way to go.
Not only will it turn him aginst the Army.
This will more than likely trun others in this command aginst the Leader ship and the Army.

Response by SGT Charles Bartell made May 30 at 2019 11:54 AM

SGT Charles Bartell — Thu, 30 May 2019 11:54:49 -0400

Some of us wolud like, Clarifacation on this run.
1.Did he just out right quit.
2.Did not quit, Just fell out after Some time.
There is a big diffrence between to two.
3.Finshed the run, But not in the spicfied time.
This would better give reason for Punshishment or help with his ablity to run longer and faster.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2019 8:15 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 Jun 2019 20:15:48 -0400

This crap is the reason I didnt fight my medical retirement. What has the army come to... dear lord

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2019 9:40 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Jun 2019 09:40:01 -0400

Little out dated but From AR 350-1

Commanders may establish unit APFT and PRT mission related goals which exceed Army minimum standards. However, individuals must be aware of these goals and be able to achieve them safely through the use of normal training time and adherence to the phases, principles, components and types of training outlined in FM 7–22. Personnel who meet Army minimum standards, but fail to meet unit goals, may not be punished or disciplined. However, they may be required to participate in special conditioning programs which focus on overcoming a weakness. Commanders who establish higher goals should do so because their unit missions require Soldiers to be more than minimally fit. Like-units with identical missions (companies within battalions, battalions within brigades) should have similar standards. Care must be taken by the chain of command to ensure unit goals do not arbitrarily replace Army standards.

Response by SFC Michael W. made Jun 11 at 2019 10:20 PM

SFC Michael W. — Tue, 11 Jun 2019 22:20:37 -0400

On what grounds are you flagging the soldier? Just because that soldier did not complete a 4 mile run at a 9 minute mile pace doesn't justify flagging...

Response by SGT John Creager made Jun 25 at 2019 8:15 PM

SGT John Creager — Tue, 25 Jun 2019 20:15:25 -0400

Because it is wrong to do this. Why you as a leader should have been working with the soldier to get them to this as a standard.
Lets put it another way, one of the fastest people in my last battalion no suffers from silicosis. his lungs are filled with dirt and dust age 43 and dying from dirt..... He was made to clean V packs for M1A1 Abrams tanks and the dust is now killing him.

I had something missed, that pain in your side you get as a runner. Its a warning. It is your diaphragm tearing loose from its proper place. Why could I not beat 9 minute miles, I thought I could breath, but testing done just a few years ago found this problem.

YOu know maybe your soldier has problems health wise and maybe you are part of their problem.

Yea This is harsh, but it is truth.

Response by SGT Mike Palella made Jul 1 at 2019 5:12 PM

SGT Mike Palella — Mon, 01 Jul 2019 17:12:55 -0400

I am confuse? Why were you told to do leg work on this? Who made the call for such action? The LTC and SGM both know you can’t flag some one for this. Or was it your choice to try to get it done and that was the response you got?

Response by 1SG Frank Plewinski made Jul 4 at 2019 11:12 AM

1SG Frank Plewinski — Thu, 04 Jul 2019 11:12:50 -0400

Sound like leadership needs to do their job. Always blame the soldier it seems. Maybe he's not in shape, has other issues. Don't know the history of this situation but I think jumping to the extreme is a failure of leadership.

Response by SSG Dave Johnston made Jul 7 at 2019 10:28 PM

SSG Dave Johnston — Sun, 07 Jul 2019 22:28:07 -0400

Its' been a year since this 1st posted; what was the outcome? Did you end up writing a "Flag" on the Soldier? Did you tell the 'Higher-Ups' to do their own dirty work? You post garbage like this and leave us hanging, come on Sarge…..

Response by SGM Joel Cook made Jul 15 at 2019 3:37 AM

SGM Joel Cook — Mon, 15 Jul 2019 03:37:30 -0400

Talk to your unit legal representative. Usually a SSG position at BN S1. That is one of his few jobs besides processing art 15s. If he has been doing it for awhile he will be able to quote from memory what you are asking. Normally they have a Legal Giude booklet with specific answers to questions like these.

Response by MSG Scott Milne made Jul 19 at 2019 11:34 AM

MSG Scott Milne — Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:34:46 -0400

It is not a required Army standard.

Response by SSG Eric Blue made Jul 25 at 2019 5:10 PM

SSG Eric Blue — Thu, 25 Jul 2019 17:10:32 -0400

My suggestion would be the regulation governing Army Body Composition, a regulation dealing with the standards expected of every trooper (up and down) for your unit, the S1/G1 Operations NCO for your unit, and an Army Master Fitness Trainer if you have access to one. When I was still active in the 82nd, every paratrooper was required to be able to run 5 miles at a 9-minute pace in 45 minutes or less, per the regulation stated in the pamphlet for the division that states the standards and expectations. Many a paratrooper got flagged in Division for constantly falling out of esprit de corps runs. BUT, there are variables to this...such as length of time of the soldier not meeting the standard and obstacle (personal or professional) stopping the soldier from meeting the standard. If they are truly jacked up and you see that they have no desire to adapt to the lifestyle, then I'd take that route. But if there is ANY way of saving them from that and possibly you from the headache of that paperwork, I'd do THAT instead. Because who's to say that you get rid of one problem only to either gain two or three more problems or not gain a new solution.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2019 10:41 PM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 30 Jul 2019 22:41:38 -0400

Wow! This is what is wrong with the military. Leadership doesn't know how to fit punishment with the crine. You made me look bad so I am going to ruin you attitude...I have been in for 35 years. What I see now as far as leadership goes is borderline maniacal. A Vietnam Vet told me once to be a good leadership must build your soldier's trust and respect. If you don't, don't expect him to have your back in a fire fight. Friendly fire happens more than you think in a war zone. He's right you know...

Response by CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2019 11:03 PM

CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 07 Sep 2019 23:03:08 -0400

Wait? What? You can actually do that? I’m from the nasty girl side so I have never heard of something such as this.

Response by 1SG Rick Seekman made Dec 18 at 2020 11:01 PM

1SG Rick Seekman — Fri, 18 Dec 2020 23:01:10 -0500

Where is your damn 1SG and legal rep at?