Posted on May 17, 2018
Where can I find information on initiating a flag on a soldier for not completing a 4-mile esprit de corps run at a 9-minute mile pace?
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If I am supposed to do the legwork and paperwork to flag a soldier, why is it not in any of the regulations that govern FLAG or commands policy?
UCMJ
Legal Assistant
1SG
Posted 6 y ago
Responses: 190
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I think we're looking at this all wrong. A Soldier failed to complete an "esprit de corps" run. Sounds like this Soldier is lacking esprit de corps. THAT is a unit issue more than a Soldier issue. Flag the entire unit, starting with the Commander and CSM.
:)
:)
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LTC Michael Keenan
It sounds to me like the soldier failed to meet the desired pace (9 minutes for one mile; 36 minutes for 4 miles). It is not clear that the soldier quit or did not complete the run. If the soldier was out of shape, perhaps he has a training problem (NCOs listen up!). If he doesn't give a shit, Commander and First Sergeant listen up! You have a leadership problem. The idea of flagging a soldier for not meeting someone's presumably arbitrary standard for a nonstandard exercise is a mark of poor leadership.
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SSG Gregg Mourizen
I remember going on one 4 mile "9 minute" pace, that was ridiculous. The pace setter was one of the fastest runners in the battalion, and the run was more like a 5-6 minute mile. Even after the 2nd and third mile. Half the battalion fell out, before the first mile. Most in the first half. Moral went from bad to worse that day. Add threats of flags? Total fail for Esprit-de-Corps.
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SGT Charles Bartell
SSG Gregg Mourizen - For that resion, The slowist runners should be put in the front, Along with the short people. If this is not done. You get the rubber band efect.
I my self always had truble runing in thes kind or runs because it has allways been hard for me to keep the short pace between the people in front and behind.
I ran trackin JR High then some in high school. All at own pace. this worked great for me.
I my self always had truble runing in thes kind or runs because it has allways been hard for me to keep the short pace between the people in front and behind.
I ran trackin JR High then some in high school. All at own pace. this worked great for me.
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Because you can't flag the Soldier for that. Work with your retention NCO and legal representatives.
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SSG (Join to see)
MSG (Join to see) - Regulations say I need to have IWQ. No regulation I'm aware of yet prevents commanders from assigning me to other duties, while my unit performs IWQ. (possibly 600-20 para 4-19 bullying). No regulation I'm aware of prevents unit admin from "losing" APFT records prior to a promotion board, and the unit refusing to do a STAB when they're shown the records existed. PLENTY of regulations will tell you Soldiers can request a Commander's Inquiry to investigate substantively wrong, character assassinating statements made on NCOERs, yet NONE I'm aware of, actually hold commanders accountable when they simply refuse or delay beyond the time constraints of AR623-3. What JAG will tell you, is the ways the Soldier can be separated, it's up to creative command teams to determine the best way to achieve that goal through hook or crook. It's conduct not conducive to good order and discipline in our branch, not to mention just plain morally corrupt and vile. I may be personalizing this a bit, but the original question appears to be an effort to search for "creative" ways to bend over the Soldier who apparently, they can not separate for legitimately not meeting any Army physical or moral standards.
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SFC Edmund Garrard
has anyone talk to the soldier, to find ou why he did not complete the run.he could have been sick,twisted an ankle are got cramps.
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SSG William Gray
I seem to remember this thing called a Developmental Counseling Form. The intent of this form is be used for any incident that you as a leader deem necessary, both good and bad. it is an effective tool, especially the seldom used blocks on the back such as "Plan of Action" and "Follow Up". This can be used to demonstrate their performance history, more than just monthly, when it comes time for promotion or re-enlistment. This form can also be used to help a soldier, but then again so can an involved NCO. Never underestimated the power of peer pressure. I guarantee making his team or squad go running with them at 1500 everyday will develop some teamwork, but it all depends on your attitude going in. It can either be a punishment or a chance to bring a battlebuddy up.
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LT (Join to see)
I have a sailor, poor physical condition and out of shape. I spoke to him about it, I changed our office routine, we exercise as a team. He did just fine on his fitness test, we'll keep him maintained. Using a "Esprit de Corps" run to crush this soldier's spirit seems like a poor thing to do. This soldier has friends, they'll see your runs as a trap. "Esprit de Corps" becomes "Morale Suppression Exercises", you'd be working against your own goals.
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"Where can I find information on initiating a flag on a soldier for not completing a 4-mile esprit de corps run at a 9-minute mile pace?"
No place, it does not exist. If your CDR or 1SG thinks otherwise, ask them politely, professionally to educate you, show you in a regulation or signed policy justifying a local or DA flag for failing to complete a unit run at a 9-minute mile pace.
Now, if that was just one of several examples of this SM being substandard, and the CDR feels it is worth of a Flag or Bar, and THEY want to impose a flag, your duties are to provide supporting documentation ..NOT initiate a flag... SFC E7s do not flag anyone, you do not have the authority ( I think you know that, so I'm not lecturing otherwise, just setting the stage so to speak.).
For you SFC (Join to see) the job starts and finishes with a performance counseling statement.
Assuming there is no actual physical justification for the SM's failure ..
" SM Marquez, you failed to complete a unit standard 4 run @ 9min miles pace. Though not an Army standard, nor a Unit standard that can be enforced, it is never the less a sign of poor conditioning on your part, be it mental, physical, or both to be unable to all but walk 4 miles in 36 min. We strive to work as a Team... and today you failed the team.
As a team the unit departed the company area with a single task. Start as a team, finish as a team. The physicality of this "run" was not a focus point. It was nether planned as a physical training event, nor should it have been physically taxing on a SM in this unit. It is an indicator of your lack of motivation, sense of duty to your team that you made a decision to give up.
I ask you to consider this event and issue in that light.... And decide...do you wish to make the team stronger by being part of it and never giving up? or do you see your quitting as acceptable. And please note, to never give up and fail is not weakness in itself. If it is taken as a learning point, and you strive to not make the same mistakes that caused the failure again. "
Or words to that effect
If after discussion with the SM post run (before performance counseling statement ), you feel there was a justifiable reason he did not meet the unit standard "Sergeant, look, I have finished every other unit run , I broke 2 toes on my foot last week in the MOUT house kicking in that door. I did not go get a profile, because I thought I would just tough it out, they cant really do anything for broken toes anyway. Ya I should have said something before the run, but I figured I could make it, we all but walk the damn thing anyway"
Then you go see the 1SG and tell him the deal. If they still want a performance counseling statement, to easy,,,,write it....and make sure it reads like 638 narrative for a Bronze star
No place, it does not exist. If your CDR or 1SG thinks otherwise, ask them politely, professionally to educate you, show you in a regulation or signed policy justifying a local or DA flag for failing to complete a unit run at a 9-minute mile pace.
Now, if that was just one of several examples of this SM being substandard, and the CDR feels it is worth of a Flag or Bar, and THEY want to impose a flag, your duties are to provide supporting documentation ..NOT initiate a flag... SFC E7s do not flag anyone, you do not have the authority ( I think you know that, so I'm not lecturing otherwise, just setting the stage so to speak.).
For you SFC (Join to see) the job starts and finishes with a performance counseling statement.
Assuming there is no actual physical justification for the SM's failure ..
" SM Marquez, you failed to complete a unit standard 4 run @ 9min miles pace. Though not an Army standard, nor a Unit standard that can be enforced, it is never the less a sign of poor conditioning on your part, be it mental, physical, or both to be unable to all but walk 4 miles in 36 min. We strive to work as a Team... and today you failed the team.
As a team the unit departed the company area with a single task. Start as a team, finish as a team. The physicality of this "run" was not a focus point. It was nether planned as a physical training event, nor should it have been physically taxing on a SM in this unit. It is an indicator of your lack of motivation, sense of duty to your team that you made a decision to give up.
I ask you to consider this event and issue in that light.... And decide...do you wish to make the team stronger by being part of it and never giving up? or do you see your quitting as acceptable. And please note, to never give up and fail is not weakness in itself. If it is taken as a learning point, and you strive to not make the same mistakes that caused the failure again. "
Or words to that effect
If after discussion with the SM post run (before performance counseling statement ), you feel there was a justifiable reason he did not meet the unit standard "Sergeant, look, I have finished every other unit run , I broke 2 toes on my foot last week in the MOUT house kicking in that door. I did not go get a profile, because I thought I would just tough it out, they cant really do anything for broken toes anyway. Ya I should have said something before the run, but I figured I could make it, we all but walk the damn thing anyway"
Then you go see the 1SG and tell him the deal. If they still want a performance counseling statement, to easy,,,,write it....and make sure it reads like 638 narrative for a Bronze star
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SGT Mark Saint Cyr
SGM, that's kind of where my mind went with my original comment... find out WHY the guy fell out first, and foremost? There may be some justifiable reason for him falling out. Maybe he's just back in off of leave, and a bit hung over? Maybe he's got your excuse of a couple of broken toes. Maybe he just didn't get enough sleep, because some noisy neighbor kept him awake and he wasn't concentrating on what he was doing? Maybe he's even got a profile, that you know nothing about, but was ordered to make the run anyway. Who knows? But going for a flag in that situation is just reckless in my book and can cause you all sorts of issues long term. One time I remember a sergeant initiated a flag on a soldier, that was unwarranted, and the resulting IG complaint left that unit under a microscope for 6 months. Be sure of why, how and what you're doing first.
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SSG (Join to see)
In a manner of speaking, if a highly motivated SFC brings agro about a Soldier, to a junior commander (who might not have taken the action otherwise), it's not unlike "initiating" the flag, themselves.
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