Where can I find legal protection for Soldiers that are being requested to spend their personal finances to accomplish the mission?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 13:17:33 -0400

Hey all, looking for the regulation or specific other piece of legal documentation protecting a Soldier from the need to purchase gear, software, etc to accomplish a mission. Our guys are being pressured into spending their own hard earned money to pay for things like "Microsoft Project" (for their own PCs) to provide Gantt charts and project schedule network diagrams, lighting equipment and replacement batteries for our night shift, etc. that are being requested by their enlisted leadership. Unfortunately, our newer guys are feeling the pressure and buying their own stuff to avoid the conflict. Since I don't mind conflict, especially when I'm fighting for my guys... can someone steer me in the right direction on where to find some protection for these guys? Thanks in advance!

Response by LT Brad McInnis made Apr 7 at 2021 1:41 PM

LT Brad McInnis — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 13:41:24 -0400

As a leader, if I knew troops were having to pay for stuff out of their pocket, I would be livid. Everything needed to do the mission "shall" be provided by supply. My guess is if the enlisted leadership is pushing this, the officer leaders probably don't have a clue what is happening. Try talking to one of the officers and explaining what is going on. If that doesn't squash it, and it absolutely should, then go to a JAG or IG. SSG Private RallyPoint Member But give the officers a chance to straighten it out.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2021 1:41 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 13:41:49 -0400

I could be wrong but I think some of your issue may potentially fall under AR 670-1, Paragraph 2-8d.
- Commanders will not require individuals to purchase optional uniform items. Likewise, they will not restrict or discourage them from wearing optional uniform items authorized by this regulation, except in those instances where uniformity is required, such as parades or formations.

I imagine the software and other items have a similar limitation but I'm not sure which regulation that would fall under.

You could reach out to your local legal assistance office to request advice on the issue, additionally Supply might know the equipment regulation which may have what you're looking for.

Response by SSG Carlos Madden made Apr 7 at 2021 2:21 PM

SSG Carlos Madden — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 14:21:12 -0400

That's really f'ed up and I wish I could answer your question, but just wanted to say you're a good NCO for looking out for your guys.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2021 2:42 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 14:42:17 -0400

Personally, I'd ask the leadership to show me in writing that states they can order troops to spend personal financials for programs to download on their personal computers for us army business.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2021 3:19 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 15:19:42 -0400

MS Project isn't cheap. That's crazy!

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Apr 7 at 2021 4:45 PM

SSG Edward Tilton — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 16:45:18 -0400

If it is mission essential the military should buy it . How wnwill you maintain it in combat

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Apr 7 at 2021 5:15 PM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 17:15:14 -0400

Everyone has already covered this, and covered it will. And their advice is absolutely spot on. Glad to hear your Commander is taking the bull by the horns.

I will offer one caveat / caution, however.

Remember the difference between mission essential and optional. It doesn't really apply to your specific scenario, but when looking at similar instances down the road, understand that sometimes leaders will encourage Soldiers to buy things / make things for their own comfort, based on experience. You (and your Soldiers) absolutely have the right to refuse to spend your own money on military gear / equipment / etc. But the Command ALSO has the right to make you do the job with your issued gear (provided, of course, the job CAN be done with issued gear - they can't require a PowerPoint and NOT provide PowerPoint). So you have to make a conscious (and well thought out) decision as to how the job will get done if you don't spend the money, and what kind of hardship that will create for you.

As an example, when I was in Fort Drum, we were not issued butt packs (This is WAY BACK WHEN in the time of the LBE). I was encouraged to buy one because having a butt pack makes life easier. And it did - I used the heck out of my butt pack. But it was NOT required, and never part of any official packing list. I could absolutely have refused to buy one, but it would have made my ruck heavier - and meant I was carrying it more often (and this was before the time of assault packs).

One of the things that went into my butt pack, at least during the winter, was my "super woobie" - another thing I was encouraged to buy/make. I was issued a single poncho liner. I was encouraged to buy a space blanket (like $5) and another poncho liner ($40 or so, IIRC). Then I sewed the three together, with the space blanket in the middle. I could roll that up and fit it in my butt pack, with room to spare. It was just as good as the lightweight sleeping bag, easier to pack, easier to use, and more useful in more situations. Again, absolutely not REQUIRED, but made my life way better. Again, I could have refused - but I would have been colder more often. And I don't like being cold.

To re-iterate, this REALLY doesn't apply to the situation you presented here. But I wanted to throw it out there because people like to take concepts and apply them broadly. Which is usually great, but SOMETIMES can get you into trouble.

Response by MSG William Hanes made Apr 7 at 2021 6:00 PM

MSG William Hanes — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 18:00:17 -0400

Supply room is where to get required supplies and equipment. If they can't get it. It must not be required. Stand up for you soldiers.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2021 6:01 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 18:01:29 -0400

Ask JAG. They're the SME.

First off, you can tell whoever is telling them to buy things for their personal PCs that they can't do that. Just like you can't make a soldier download an app on their personal phone. Plenty of instances of commands getting in trouble for doing that or trying to mandate soldiers to download apps to personal phones. They shouldn't even be using their personal computers to do work stuff at all when they're not secure (even if it's unclassified). Then batteries and lighting equipment? That's what supply is for.

I'd go talk to JAG honestly.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 7 at 2021 6:43 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 18:43:34 -0400

Fiscal Law

Response by SPC Kevin Ford made Apr 7 at 2021 7:59 PM

SPC Kevin Ford — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 19:59:51 -0400

Does the ADPSSO (or whatever they are calling it these days) know that military files are ending up on personal PCs? That's a security breach waiting to happen.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Apr 7 at 2021 10:36 PM

SSG Brian G. — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 22:36:25 -0400

Uhh no. If there is a specific piece of software that command is requiring then you get command to put that in a memorandum and you take that to IT and they can then install the software on the PC. The Army has IT for just this sort of thing. If there is a requirement for gear then command needs to make arrangements with supply and supply can requisition or make arrangements where the gear can be purchased. At no point should the SM or ANY SM have to buy their own gear to accomplish a mission unless said gear was a replacement for an initial issue ie uniforms, etc.

You could go to JAG but this sounds more like an IG thing.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Apr 7 at 2021 11:03 PM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 23:03:31 -0400

Troops shouldn’t be using their personal banks accounts to fund daily work. They also shouldn’t be using personal computers/software for daily work either. Software and IT equipment should be requested through your s6. S4 for additional supplies.

Sounds like either leadership is overstepping or somebody in the middle isn’t directing folks to the right people in the unit

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made Apr 8 at 2021 4:46 AM

SSG Robert Perrotto — Thu, 08 Apr 2021 04:46:01 -0400

Quite frankly, this shit right here is FUBAR. Soldiers should NOT be paying for items not issued to them. If software is required for a mission, S-6 should be all over it like white on rice, Batteries for mission essential electronics, Supply or S-4 should be all over it like white on rice - what the hell is your XO doing? Training Calendar forecasts training out 6 months in advance, His JOB is to make sure these things are on hand or in place and operational before training starts. If the Army requires you to have a piece of equipment, software, or training aid to fulfil mission requirements, then it is on The Army to provide it. If you break it or lose it, after a FLIPL, then and only then, will a Soldier pay for the item to replace it.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Apr 8 at 2021 5:14 AM

MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P — Thu, 08 Apr 2021 05:14:44 -0400

Have you brought this concern up to your Commander and/or CSM? Is it possible they are unaware of the issue? At a minimum I would think this falls under Fraud, Waste, and Abuse statutes. S-4, S-6, and S-8 all exist for just this function: to provide required equipment, supply, and funding for mission requirements. Several Commanders and SNCO's have already found themselves removed from their position due to similar offenses of attempting to force member to purchase software or download apps to personal devices.

Assuming you HAVE given the CoC an opportunity to course correct with no action on their part..... Go directly to IG and/or JAG! Do not pass "go", do not pay $200! Go NOW!! This is a CLEAR violation of established law, regulation, and policy. JAG and the IG will know exactly how to bring this asshattery to an immediate abrupt halt.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Apr 8 at 2021 11:05 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Thu, 08 Apr 2021 11:05:14 -0400

This is all common sense. I do not think you will find a regulation, at least I am unaware, you will however not find a single Senior Leader that would approve of Soldiers buying anything that is related to their work. Why would a Soldier need software on personal computers. To take the opposite line of site, is this so the Sokdier can work from home instead of at the office for there own convenience and not related to COVID. If so that would be a personal choice, or work later from the office. In any case you should simply be able to speak to the Company leadership to end this practice if it is i fact for regular duty related work.

Response by LTC Mike Egan made Apr 8 at 2021 2:09 PM

LTC Mike Egan — Thu, 08 Apr 2021 14:09:52 -0400

Submit an IG complaint. This is the sort of thing they can stop and if they do their job, quickly repair the situation .

Response by SMSgt Bob Wilson made Apr 8 at 2021 6:48 PM

SMSgt Bob Wilson — Thu, 08 Apr 2021 18:48:29 -0400

I believe the Army has a budget which filters down to the local installation; it sound like the "local budget" has been "pocketed" funds. Back in the day, software had to be approved to go onto military computers, but you said "...their own PSc..." Also, isn't it a OPSEC violation to use "non-government" computers wo produce government work product? Sounds like a job for the FBI, OSI, CID to correct this BS.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Apr 8 at 2021 10:11 PM

SSG Edward Tilton — Thu, 08 Apr 2021 22:11:09 -0400

We had to buy these stupid hats, half a months pay

Response by SSG Bill McCoy made Apr 9 at 2021 1:52 AM

SSG Bill McCoy — Fri, 09 Apr 2021 01:52:24 -0400

I'd call the Staff Judge Advocate's Office first to get the facts. Then, with facts, confer with your 1SG and PSG - unless they're involved.

Response by PO2 Brian Hoadley made Apr 9 at 2021 4:36 PM

PO2 Brian Hoadley — Fri, 09 Apr 2021 16:36:23 -0400

supply (s4), IG or command sgt/master chief this should not be happening.

Response by SPC Steven Nihipali made May 3 at 2021 8:31 AM

SPC Steven Nihipali — Mon, 03 May 2021 08:31:46 -0400

Hey SSG, first off thank you for fighting for your troops. Refreshing to read that. Don't stop fighting for your troops. Without them your mission fails before you can even begin training.

I was forced to pay for luggage and crap we took on flights and then with the receipt, fill or a travel voucher a few times. At the time, it really put my family in a bind and didn't help with the pay afterwards. My CO, a CW5, went and did good job and told everyone off about what was going on, especially the guys who traveled more than I did.

A piece of advice for those buying gear, always keep receipts! Keep our maintain a file, take a picture of it, file or in a folder marked with the date, or something. Organize their finances until this mess gets resolved. No troop should ever be buying gear to accomplish the mission unless they're AF. (They don't get anything worth a damn anyway)

Response by SSG Glenn Williams made May 5 at 2021 10:23 AM

SSG Glenn Williams — Wed, 05 May 2021 10:23:10 -0400

I don't know about legal protection per say but soldiers should not have to pay for software required to accomplish the mission nor use their personal for official use. If they choose to purchase specific software that's entirely ok.

However, the use of personal computers or other electronic devices used to conduct official business is another matter and should be discouraged. Even non-classified materials can breach OPSEC should it fall into the wrong hands.

If you find yourself with an absolute need to use your home computer for work it would be best to use a dedicated external drive to save the data which can be kept in a secure location and then clear the computer's cache by shutting it down completely.

A final note, there are free programs out there that can do what the expensive software does. In fact there are programs that are actually portable operating systems that provides additional security. Here is a link to them: https://secureblitz.com/most-secure-operating-systems/

10 Most Secure Operating Systems (#9 Is Our Favourite) - SB

In this post, we will show the most secure operating systems. Also, we will help you to decide the most secure OS suitable for your PC’s daily operations

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2021 12:44 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 May 2021 00:44:31 -0400

There are a couple of problems here. First, it is against regulation to use your personal computer to create, store or transmit military information, regardless of classification. The information is government property and not personal property. So, using a personal computer opens the soldier up to having the computer confiscated by the military, searched and wiped. Second, soldiers may voluntarily buy pogey bait and such but have no authority to procure software on behalf of the military. As such, no leader can direct a soldier to purchase Project Management software or other software for the mere creation of plans for military planning and operations. Third, apparently soldiers are missing their training on the distinction between, moral, ethical and legal distinctions. Being pressured to spend their own money infers that they are not being ordered, which should confirm that the pressuring violates moral, legal or ethical standards. When in doubt, a soldier has the ability and duty to seek clarification of 'pressure' generated by peers or superiors. This clarification can be obtained from JAG, IG, Chaplain and/or Commander.

So, here is my recommendation, from a former NCO perspective. If these are your guys, then train them on legal, ethical and moral standards. Protect them by advising them that if they feel pressured to spend their own money to accomplish the mission, they contact you before spending any money. Gather information on who made the request (created the pressure), what the request was, whether it was verbal or written as well as date and time.

Now, as a retired officer, my recommendation is that you take the information you gathered and inform the first officer in the chain of command. Inform the officer that this is not the first request and that soldiers are being forced to support the mission with their own cash. Inform the officer that you believe this is a form of extortion and you have directed your soldiers not to comply. If the officer hesitates, request to speak to the Commander, JAG, IG and the Chaplain to obtain guidance. Do not seek just one but seek to gather guidance from each of them. There is little doubt in my mind that all will concur that soldiers must not be pressured to fund military operations beyond voluntary personal purchases for themselves (pogey bait, entertainment, etc.). If you run into problems, send me a note and I'll ensure the situation is addressed.

Response by CW4 Robert Mixon made May 14 at 2021 11:59 AM

CW4 Robert Mixon — Fri, 14 May 2021 11:59:51 -0400

If the gov. Wanted you have a wife you would be issued one that ?? Again

Response by SSgt Russell Stevens made Jun 6 at 2021 11:39 PM

SSgt Russell Stevens — Sun, 06 Jun 2021 23:39:27 -0400

Of more concern would be enlisted troops having to pay out of pocket for operational weapons. The M16 I was assigned at the beginning of Desert Shield turned out to have a shot out barrel and trigger parts missing, and I wasn't allowed to take the time to sight the weapon in before deployment. When my chain of command wouldn't listen, and the armory refused to repair/replace the weapon, I sent a letter to my congressman with photos. He sourced parts for me and had them sent to me so I was able to repair the weapon. You know a military organization is in danger when a transportation specialist is better qualified to repair a weapon than the armory is. I'm happy to say my entire chain of command at home station was replaced over that incident as well.

Response by SSG(P) Danielle Birtha made Jun 17 at 2021 1:38 PM

SSG(P) Danielle Birtha — Thu, 17 Jun 2021 13:38:49 -0400

Where do you get your "mission essential" equipment from?
--> SUPPLY!
Your NCO's should be going to Supply for the needs of their soldiers... not demanding their soldiers buy out of pocket... and ... if someone is demanding you buy from Supply... ummm... no... that's fraud on the part of whomever is extorting your money for Government Issued gear... unless you lost that gear thru negligence.
If the item is not issued thru Supply, it's NOT mission essential... it's personal preference, and Supply does NOT supply those items.
NCO's ... requisition your needs from Supply... not your soldiers.
Your Supply Sgt and/or Supply Officer is the best source for answers to questions like these.
Shame on any chain of command who allows their leaders to tax their soldiers. >(
what's next? "We go to war tomorrow... go to Walmart to buy your own bullets."?
Inform your Supply Officer of those extorting, and they will take care of it...
Chances are: those items you pay for might just be issued, by Supply, to the #$$hat demanding you pay for them..
BUT ... "McHale's Navy" sank years ago ;)
heheh... "There's a sucker born every minute."
Don't be that sucker ;)

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2021 3:55 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Jun 2021 15:55:30 -0400

Well my issued tool box was so so if support was always available, but my E-7 stressed the point if the balloon went up we were the only support available. Of course this was at the time when the Warsaw Pact was just on the other side of the line. So I bought extra tools to be sure I could do my job under any circumstances. After-all I was trained down to component level so I was expected to fix anything electronic regardless if I had been trained on that equipment. That was how my Command thought. As to this issue then there are people in Command who should not be in Command of anything other than a paper cup.

Response by SFC Dwight Beaver made Jun 28 at 2021 9:46 PM

SFC Dwight Beaver — Mon, 28 Jun 2021 21:46:08 -0400

Take it through your chain of command. Of no results then go to the IG. Just make sure you have everything documented. Cover all the W's

Response by SPC Sam Sterner made Aug 25 at 2021 3:14 PM

SPC Sam Sterner — Wed, 25 Aug 2021 15:14:30 -0400

IG I suppose. JAG?