Where do you stand on the issue of torture?

PFC Eric Minchey — Tue, 12 Aug 2014 18:28:12 -0400

Here is where I stand: The media and the government would have us believe that torture is some necessary thing; That we need it to get information & assert ourselves. But I believe that torture is for the torturer or for the guy giving orders to the torturer & is useless as a means of getting information.

Just War Theory: "Enemy combatants who surrendered or who are captured no longer pose a threat. It is therefore wrong to torture them or otherwise mistreat them."

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2014 6:31 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Aug 2014 18:31:42 -0400

Torture gives more bad information than it does give useful information... That alone should be reason enough as to why we don't do it in the Military.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2014 11:57 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Aug 2014 23:57:47 -0400

It's a war crime. Do it and go to prison.

/discussion

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2014 5:22 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Dec 2014 17:22:11 -0500

PFC Eric Minchey, your perception is uncanny, as you posted this question 4 months ago. Props.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Dec 10 at 2014 5:50 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Wed, 10 Dec 2014 17:50:21 -0500

As someone who was married for 20 years to my ex, I find myself somewhat of a SME on the subject. She never broke me, despite all the different forms that she used. On a serious note, I find myself always going back to this speech. Should we randomly pick someone and have at it? Of course not, and I pray to God that it is a last resort. When it is sanctioned, I pray that the decision passes the ultimate scrutiny. Should we make it public policy to air out this technique and practice to a civilian public that is horrifficaly underqualified to pass judgement? Absolutely NOT! Again, "Col Jessup" brings up some excellent points. We are talking about the Constitutional rights of those who are in the business of destroying every aspect of the Constitution. I would do anything to live in a world where this question should never even be mentioned. This world will never be like that until such hatred can be erased. I hope God will forgive me for feeling this way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FnO3igOkOk

You Can't Handle the Truth! - A Few Good Men (7/8) Movie CLIP (1992) HD

A Few Good Men movie clips: http://j.mp/1BcRpvP BUY THE MOVIE: http://amzn.to/rCV8mU Don't miss the HOTTEST NEW TRAILERS: http://bit.ly/1u2y6pr CLIP DESCRIPT...

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Dec 10 at 2014 6:17 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:17:41 -0500

I need to lighten my mood.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-hnyAHi2qw

Spongebob - Do Instruments Of Torture Count?

The sweet music of instruments of torture. Episode: "Band Geeks" LEGAL STUFF: I do not own Spongebob, Viacom does.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2014 6:40 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:40:06 -0500

I haven't given it much thought.

I think most people have no idea what torture is. Congress is at fault. As Congress has refused to define torture, as a reasonable person I will continue to point out that no one was tortured by the US.

I understand that defining it is a difficult proposition. So a null hypothesis can be used--define what it is not, or more directly, define what proper interrogation is.

As I would define it, proper interrogation would requires proper intent, improper intent, then constituting torture, as well as an analysis of the techniques.

Waterboarding, for example, is not torture in and of itself. If it is used, though in the pursuit of anything but actionable intelligence or it's confirmation, it could be. It is certainly torture, though, if the intent is to cause pain or discomfort for any other purpose--that's sadism.

Also, any such technique that is used in the usual Hollywood scenario: I'm going to hurt you until you talk, is torture, and that's not how interrogations are done. Done right, proper coercive techniques speed up the time it takes for an interrogator to establish a rapport with the subject in a good cop/bad cop routine.

Fully articulated, proper intent, as I see it, requires reason to think that the subject is in possession of the information, reason to think that there is a set of circumstances under which they will divulge it, and that the information be itself actionable or confirmation of other intelligence that lacks that confirmation to be actionable. If any of these elements fail, the interrogator does not have proper intent and their actions may then rise to the level of torture. Those actions also have to be scrutinized before and during, by those authorities conducting the interrogations, and escalating intensity should require higher and higher prior approval. After the fact, all levels of oversight from immediate supervisors, IG, and ultimately Congress, even if that last is the usual lost cause.

Congress did ratify the UN Convention on Torture in 1994. But that's also no help. It does not meaningfully define torture. The UN is just as negligent in this matter as the Congress.

"Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or
mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as
obtaining from him or a third person, information or a confession,
punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is
suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a
third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind,
when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or
with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person
acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering
arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."
— Convention Against Torture, Article 1.1

Just as a starting point, what constitutes "severe"? More broadly, this could be applied in such a way as to prevent all interrogation.

A number of pundits, some who have said so all along, and some emboldened by the recent Senate Democrat report, have been making the assertion that the US tortured detainees. But the fact is, this assertion is completely unsupportable.

Judge Andrew Napolitano, for example, has been steadfast in this assertion. In response to the why both the Bush and Obama administrations have not pursued prosecutions, he claims that this is a political determination. He's probably not used to the accusation I'm going to level against him, but he has failed to think this all the way through.

Indeed, he is right that both administrations have made political determinations as opposed to legal ones, but he doesn't address why that should be the case. The reason is that Congress, in writing the legislation that might have applied, crafted the law, deliberately, to leave it a political determination.

The laws of the United States that "outlaw" torture, in fact, do no such thing, because, as discussed, they fail, utterly, to define what constitutes torture. Unconstitutionally vague is an understatement. Prosecution should be impossible in this circumstance and if achieved, would be unjust. The Bush and Obama administrations have made the only just determination that they can--not to try to prosecute. And that presumes, without evidence, that anyone did anything worthy of prosecution.

The US has tortured no one.

(Here is the US Code attempt at a definition: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2340)

18 U.S. Code § 2340 - Definitions | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

2004—Par. (3). Pub. L. 108–375 amended par. (3) generally. Prior to amendment, par. (3) read as follows: “‘United States’ includes all areas under the jurisdiction of the United States including any of the places described in sections 5 and 7 of this title and section 46501(2) of title 49.”

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2014 11:20 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Dec 2014 23:20:34 -0500

We caught bin Laden partially based off of information obtained in this manner. So your point is slightly weak.

Response by Cpl Dennis F. made Dec 11 at 2014 12:29 AM

Cpl Dennis F. — Thu, 11 Dec 2014 00:29:50 -0500

Beat me, hurt me, just don't F'n bore me........oh......you mean them?

Response by Cpl Dennis F. made Dec 11 at 2014 12:41 AM

Cpl Dennis F. — Thu, 11 Dec 2014 00:41:04 -0500

The most effective torture is not physical, and leaves no visible marks. Properly applied, ones own mind will perform the breaking of ones will.

Response by PO1 John Y. made Dec 11 at 2014 10:08 AM

PO1 John Y. — Thu, 11 Dec 2014 10:08:09 -0500

I don't think the Geneva Convention should apply to terrorist. Next, we'll be paying them reparations and making sure they have HBO....

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2014 11:43 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Dec 2014 11:43:00 -0500

I stand to disagree with you Minchey. Have you read any of the Reports/Views from both sides? Many of the claims are half-truths, hundreds of people were available to be interviewed but were not, no solution or alternate means were provided in the Senate's report. My view is that I believe that the "enhanced interrogation techniques" were useful in capturing and temporarily halting several Al-Qaeda operations. Another point is that it is okay for our adversaries to brutality murder Americans and our allies but our source of retrieving information from them is inhumane. I get it, we are America, were supposed to be better than everyone else but torturing our enemies to help stop/halt future attacks against our citizens is fine with me. I bet if any of us or our love ones were captured by any of these adversaries we would want our government to use any means necessary to come rescue us, just food for though.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Dec 11 at 2014 12:06 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Thu, 11 Dec 2014 12:06:58 -0500

I'm opposed.

Response by Cpl Glynis Sakowicz made Dec 11 at 2014 12:06 PM

Cpl Glynis Sakowicz — Thu, 11 Dec 2014 12:06:44 -0500

As with most of my responses, I gave this a lot of thought, and I'm still going thru the "...On the other hand..." ideas, but I'll take a shot at it.
First, I've always thought that torture was a bit more involved than waterboarding. Heck, I know people who went thru that for training purposes, and yes it wasn't comfortable or fun, but neither was the Tear Gas/Gas Mask event in Boot Camp.
Having been a mother, I have endured insanely long events without sleep... try having twins with Colic and a full time job. I have endured hours of loud, obnoxious music that goes on endlessly, loud enough to make the entire house vibrate... its called having teenage twins.
I am not trying to minimize what those people went thru, but what I am thinking, is that in my estimation, I think that was hardly torture... but it was exhausting, terrifying, and bad enough to confuse a person totally.
That said, I think about those Americans who died on 9-11. I think about the class of little kids flying to DC with their teachers... and I think of those who jumped rather than burn. I think about those Marines I knew who died in other terrorist attacks like Beiruit, and after considering that, I have to say that if putting a few prisioners thru waterboarding or keeping them awake for three days and nights kept us from having another 9-11, then forgive me, but I'd have to agree with those tools being used. Of course, I am one of those people who tend to believe strongly in the 2nd Ammendment, so my answer is probably a long way away from the answer that might have been given by someone who believes that you need to understand and empathize with such people.

Response by SSG Genaro Negrete made Dec 11 at 2014 12:33 PM

SSG Genaro Negrete — Thu, 11 Dec 2014 12:33:11 -0500

It seems that a lot of people in favor of these "enhanced" interrogation methods are under the assumption that those being "interrogated" ACTUALLY have something worth listening too. Statistically, there is no way every individual apprehended is actually holding actionable information.

I'm also inclined to believe that kind of stress can just as easily lead to inaccurate information. The individual being "questioned" may be so concerned with the questioning methods that they'll say what ever you want to hear just to get you to stop.

This question brings to mind the "Total War" concept. That a nation would wage war with every ounce of it's will and being. Every asset (civilian and military) is dedicated to wining the war and will do ANYTHING to accomplish this goal. This would unleash a holocaust of human suffering if it is faithfully employed.

So we created a multitude of laws and regulations to keep war from getting to that point. I like to believe the US wins it's fights honorably. Some of the individuals may not, but as a whole, the organization does what it can to do more good than bad.

Response by PFC Stephen Eric Serati made Dec 11 at 2014 1:07 PM

PFC Stephen Eric Serati — Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:07:08 -0500

ALL who had knowledge,ALL who took part in and out of the service should be investigated and charged appropriately.If we can't the UN and P5+1 should look at our membership.

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made Dec 11 at 2014 1:20 PM

Col Joseph Lenertz — Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:20:19 -0500

Torture is bad. But ever been through basic training? SERE school? Any elite training? Then you know personally, if you wear someone down physically, to the point of exhaustion, they become more mentally open to suggestion and willing to accept your point of view. You know that. Not every civilian knows it.
So torture is bad. I do not advocate for it.
Not getting a perfect night's sleep, running hard, lifting hard, and getting yelled at, shot at, being scared...are all things we've experienced...some of us to a pretty significant degree. Let's not call everything we do to weaken an enemy combatant's ability to defend himself psychologically, "torture", because it just isn't.

Response by Cpl Dennis F. made Dec 13 at 2014 12:47 PM

Cpl Dennis F. — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 12:47:23 -0500

I've stayed away from this for a few reasons that I will not go into.
In answer here is an article I wrote many years ago.

ABU GHRAIB PRISONER ABUSE,
A CONFLICT OF CONSCIENCE…………

Some observations by D.C.Fresch

In May, 2004 the story of massive prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq surfaced in the
mainstream press, CNN and the Internet. The opening page of this story featured a handful of photos showing Iraqi prisoners and two U.S. Army members in what the general public would consider disturbing circumstances. I make the distinction here of the public vs. those who have had the experience of conflict and as such may have become somewhat desensitized to the milder manifestations of warfare.

Since then, more photos and details have daily hit the presses. Seven service members are being charged with a number of violations. One of them has already pled out to the charges, been found guilty, and sentenced. He appears to be a large part of the Government’s case against the others.

The Arab world has been rocked by a portrayal of U.S. actions that seem to be at odds with our public, military and diplomatic stance as would be saviors of the Iraqi people.

There is a vitally important story here. It is a problem that most likely will affect our lives for the next few decades. I wish I had the opportunity to go into Iraq and find the real truth. It has not been uncovered as yet. Getting shot at and wandering in harm’s way doesn’t frighten me as much as the gross laziness displayed so far by the mainstream press reporting. Hearsay and inflammatory statements gathered second hand is not the path to the truth.

Having been in the field with the U.S. Marine Corps, as a combat tank crewman, I am of two minds when it comes to the issue of prisoner abuses in Iraq. It is, I know from experience, difficult on an emotional level as a young combatant, to not just hate them all. We are trained to hate them, to kill them, cause them pain. After all they are the enemy and we even have special names for them, to set them apart, dehumanize them, make them easier to kill. They would do it to us, we are told. They have in the past.

The German Army of WWII, specifically Lt.Col. Joachim Peiper, on 17 December 1944 captured and summarily executed over 100 members of the U.S. Army’s Battery B of the 285th Field Artillery Observation Battalion. At the crossroads south of the Belgian town of Malmedy his command assembled and machine-gunned his captives. Thirty survived the “Malmedy Massecre ”and Peiper and 73 of his command were tried for war crimes. Forty-three of those were convicted and sentenced to death. The sentence was never carried out, owing to the skills of their American attorney.
The Japanese routinely beheaded captured British commandos. After the fall of Manila they executed 16,000 U.S. and Filipino prisoners, those who dropped out of the 60 mile Bataan death march, those whose crime was not being able to make the forced march to detention. The survivors were subjected to being used as slave labor, worked to death. The Japanese slaughters that took place within China and the Indo-china area are well documented by history.
Any one who has not heard of the horrors of the Hanoi Hilton in North Viet Nam need only look through Jeremiah Denton’s book “When Hell was in session” to get a graphic look into the Viet torture of our pilots during that decade. Admiral Denton’s depiction of his seven and a half years of captivity gave us the first look into the depraved practices of the North Vietnamese. It is a chronical of pain and heroics.
Today’s headlines are now giving us the recent Iraqi murders and mutilations of the four ex- Special Forces operators. Once ambushed, they were taken from their vehicle, dismembered, hanged and burned. Although ex-military they were working as civilian aid workers. Also telling is the widespread Internet decapitation of 26 year old civilian Nicholas Berg. His killing has been touted as revenge for the treatment of Iraqi POWs.
We have not ourselves been immune from violations. Vietnam awakened us to our own savagery with the “My Lai incident” of March 16th 1968. We witnessed the wholesale slaughter of the inhabitants of the village of My Lai by troops under the command of Lt. Calley and Capt. Ernest Medina. The resulting court-martials and convictions displayed to the world, the shame of the U.S. Army’s Company C., 11th brigade of the Americal Division and the country.

It is not difficult to understand the individual troopers leap from the adrenal testosterone pumping fear of a recent firefight to the off hand and somewhat understandable abuse of a helpless enemy. But once that enemy is moved down the road and up the chain of command to detention and interrogation it is another story. There is no longer a clear and present danger. There is an infra structure of authority and supervision . Checks and balances put in place to avoid atrocity. And there are always THE RULES. They have been in place for decades. We have agreed to abide by them, and for very good reasons.

* * * * * *

It is illegal, so says the Geneva Conventions of War, to abuse and or not hold safe and secure those combatants that are out of the fight. It actually says much more.

Specifically: THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS ON THE LAWS OF WAR, 1949

Article 3: In the case of armed conflict…..each party shall be bound to apply as a minimum the following provisions:

(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed ‘hors de combat’ by sickness, wounds, DETENTION or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, color, religion, or faith, sex, birth, or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) Taking of hostages;
( c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;
(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

(2) The wounded and the sick shall be collected and cared for….

And also some reasons why we have chosen this course, from:

The U.S. ARMY Field Manual: The Law of Land Warfare, 1956...

2. Purposes of the Law of War

The conduct of armed hostilities on land is regulated by the law of land warfare which is both written and unwritten. IT IS INSPIRED BY THE DESIRE TO DIMINISH THE EVILS OF WAR BY:

a. Protecting…..from unnecessary suffering;
b. Safeguarding certain fundamental human rights of persons who fall into the hands of the enemy, particularly prisoners of war, the wounded and sick, and civilians; and
c. Facilitating the restoration of peace…

3. Basic Principles

a. Prohibitory Effect. The law of war places limits on the exercise of a belligerent’s power in the interests mentioned in paragraph 2 and requires that…refrain from employing any kind or degree of violence… not necessary for military purposes…and conduct hostilities with regard for the principles of humanity and CHIVALRY.

And then, grunt simple from:

MACV Pocket Card “The Enemy In Your Hands” circa: mid 60s:

As a member of the U.S. Military Forces, you will comply with the Geneva Prisoner of War Convention of 1949 to which your country adheres. Under these conventions:

You can and will:

Disarm your prisoner…
Immediately search him thoroughly….
Require him to be silent….
Segregate him from other prisoners…
Guard him carefully…
Take him to the place designated by your commander

You cannot and must not:

Mistreat your prisoner
Humiliate or degrade him
Take any of his personal effects that do not have significant military value
Refuse him medical treatment if required and available

ALWAYS TREAT YOUR PRISONER HUMANELY

3.) Mistreatment of any captive is a criminal offense. Every soldier is personally responsible for the enemy in his hands.

* * * * * *

This last item was put into the hands of EVERY combatant in the RVN Theater of operations. Additionally troops received two hours of instruction on the handling of POWs according to the Geneva Conventions. I would hope that a similar training program was conducted in the Iraqi/Kuwaiti Theater as far back as 1991 and again with the present conflict. If not then the shame and guilt of omission does indeed rise very high.

Despite all of these safeguards, through out the ages, from before the civil wars’ Andersonville and on into the future, angry disgruntled and fearful warriors have and will take their share of “Get Back” out on their enemies. It is not right, but it will always happen. The lines of chivalry will understandably and occasionally be crossed in the field by the grunts that are more than likely still bleeding and hurting from recent hostile actions. This is the sharp edge of war where combatants become captives and the point of that transition may become blurred.
There is no reason and no excuse for garrison troops, Military Police included, to ever become involved in any abuse of prisoners. If they are so grossly unsupervised, directed or ordered to do so, all of the above rules and laws of war still become unnecessary. The unwritten expected basic moral obligations as men come into play.

If this prison travesty has resulted from a lack of supervision, the U.S. Army needs to address these problems. I’m proud that the procedures of the Marine Corps, on the whole, seem to still wash out the sexual sadists that have apparently gotten through the cracks of this recent episode. These self-stroking monsters deserve to go to a special Military hell at Leavenworth, forever. If only for what they will cost this country in lives, military and civilian, and our stature in the world community over the next generation or so. They have shown no moral grounding that can mark them as humans. Responsibly, provisions have also made for those whose duty it was to hold this tiger by the tail. The company commanders and all those above are just as responsible and get a ticket to the same hell, guilty by omission.

1800 photographs surfaced in the first flush of the Abu Ghraib investigation. Why are there 1800 photos? I know this is the digital age but this implies either obsession or agency.

If all of this was the result of some grand direction orchestrated by the intelligence agencies, we may never find the truth. The product of a gray area of warfare down through time, intelligence driven interrogations will never be admitted to. If this is what has happened in this case, the peons will burn on the altar of intelligence secrecy while the spooks slide back under the covers and leave them holding the bag and the responsibility. We all know the difference between right and wrong. If we are not prepared to ask the right questions, follow what is morally correct, instead of following blind ego and questionable orders, we have to be prepared to be thrown to the wolves, be prosecuted and pay the price for illegal actions. Sorry, no get out of jail free card for the perpetrators. We will all pay for these crimes.

Do Intel groups do these things we have seen in the news, and on the internet? You betcha! Have they done it in wars past? Absolutely! Will they do it again? For sure! In the big Intel picture this is small potatoes.

We ended the big one in the Pacific by testing out our two new Nukes on Nagasaki and Hiroshima vaporizing thousands of Japanese civilians. The reasoning was to avoid a protracted land battle that would have cost us possibly hundreds of thousands killed. Was it the right thing to do? You Bet! What ever works and can be gotten away with, that “makes the other poor bastard die for his country” as George Patton is to have said. That is what war is in the end, killing, winning. Otherwise it may as well be a cooking contest. It is not. Unpleasant things happen and people die from the result of critical decisions made throughout the chain of command.

There is no easy answer to this problem. It may be a necessary evil that any military power must live with. Either that, or else not get caught. The terrible press exposure will hurt us but not destroy us. We have an amazing resilience.

Hanoi was never called on the carpet for its many atrocities. Few paid for Germany’s horror shows with their lives. Our spies and interrogators are as necessary as any of our air, sea, and land forces. We cannot do without them or overly shackle them as we have in the past, but we must come up with a civilized answer to this problem. Training or responsibility for our actions, we must choose.

We cannot take away freedom to gain liberty. We cannot become the monsters that we have taken an oath to protect our country from. Our word is our bond and honor, as a people and a country. We have said that we agree to abide by the laws of war…that includes prosecution of those that are guilty. There are guilty, from those that performed the deeds, to those that allowed them. The rules could not be clearer. If we are to make decisions to break the rules, we must be prepared to face prosecution for doing so. We have a moral ethical responsibility as individuals and as a country.

Response by Sgt Sasha Kissoondath made Dec 13 at 2014 12:55 PM

Sgt Sasha Kissoondath — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 12:55:18 -0500

These criminals on the battlefield show no mercy. If torture is required for a situation then I will support it. Imagine this situation, if someone kidnapped you child or spouse, would you use any means necessary to get them home safely ?

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Dec 14 at 2014 12:02 PM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Sun, 14 Dec 2014 12:02:06 -0500

Once again, when the dust of war has settled and the warriors and intelligence operators are no longer needed to make the nation as a whole feel safe, the media and those opposed to warfare in any degree decide to review how things were done when we were at war and have concluded that things have occurred that we should be ashamed of. IMO, this is a complete crock of feces and was/is one last attempt to get a dig in against the previous administration by a body of the legislature, democrats in particular and one person specifically with an axe to grind against the CIA. No effort was made to verify this information with the individuals that participated or led these interrogations and the releasers of this report had over 2 years from the end of the investigation they cite as the reason for not being able to interview the perpetrators till it was released. They first denied they were briefed at all and when that was disproven they then changed their tunes to say that what occurred was far beyond what they were briefed about. Sorry, but I for one do not buy that line of crapola. Things have been done in the fog of war or during times of great distress (immediately following 911, etc.) that always seems to get "overlooked" but then as soon as things "quiet" down, there always seems to be a witch-hunt when someone's sensibilities are torqued.
A few other things I would like to comment on in general to this whole issue: 1) yes we are supposed to be morally superior when it comes to issues of torture, and we have more or less done so in the major conflicts we have been involved with since the end of WWII, however what we are facing today with these terrorists/Islamic fundamentalists is a totally different animal that anything we have faced before. 2) What has been done in the name of intelligence gathering/protecting this nation since 911 occurred is vastly different from what was done to SEN McCain and other POWs by the NV and by the members of Al Qaeda/ISIS today. No comparison in my book. 3) Anyone advocating that any of those involved in these interrogations be charged when our DOJ has determined TWICE that no charges should be brought or that they be charged by any UN/International body really needs to look at what these bodies are about and ask themselves "Will there really be any kind of fair and impartial justice brought against any American brought before them?", my answer is "No, they would not!", as these bodies have pretty much shifted from viewing our nation as the world's police force/saviors to the world's bully. The UN in my opinion can go fork itself, to me they really no longer stand for or represent what it was originally designed to do.
4) To me, any and all methods brought to bear against the terrorist/fundamentalist organizations that stand for the destruction of our way of life due to their misled view of their religious beliefs and the execution of relief workers simply because they are American/western/Christian is ok by me.

Response by SSG Russ Hittle made Dec 14 at 2014 3:00 PM

SSG Russ Hittle — Sun, 14 Dec 2014 15:00:30 -0500

In relation to the military we don't torture. But for clandestine federal agencies that operate in this matter, I feel it's perfectly fine. Ya know why, now that I'm out of the Army and a police officer, any chance to stop a another terrorist attack is fine with me, plus a bit of me takes pleasure in the fact that these animals get a bit of their own pain. Live by the sword, die by it!

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 14 at 2014 3:08 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 14 Dec 2014 15:08:38 -0500

Since the report has come out and really hasn't told us anything we didn't all ready know. And our technics can arguably be construed in ones mind as outrageous or nothing at all. Just depends on who's opinion you are listening to or reading. But do you think it has really stopped? Yes the administration has said it stopped but they are not always the must truthful. Do you really think there are no more black sites? And since our operatives need to work with friendly and some not so friendly intelligence sources will it hinder them?

Response by SSG Peter Muse made Dec 14 at 2014 10:48 PM

SSG Peter Muse — Sun, 14 Dec 2014 22:48:13 -0500

I think there are enough alternatives in using chemicals or other techniques. I think the torturers are mostly poorly equipped to do the job and less prepared to live with themselves years later. We can get our answers using other methods. I think we like the retribution we attach to it.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 14 at 2014 10:48 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 14 Dec 2014 22:48:31 -0500

To soon!!! but just a lil humor

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2014 12:03 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 15 Dec 2014 00:03:32 -0500

The amount of people in support of this, and the amount of tacit support being displayed via the thumbs the supporters are receiving disturbs me. Ends should never justify means, otherwise we would be able to condone literally anything regardless of how heinous. Torture is an unquestionably evil act, and the fact that there are so many people here who see no issue with it, justifying it as a means to an end, sickens me. To practice this violates every principle that gives us the moral high ground, violates every national value that is worth fighting for.

People wonder why so many people in the world despise us as a nation. This is why.

Response by SFC Michael Jackson, MBA made Dec 15 at 2014 4:28 AM

SFC Michael Jackson, MBA — Mon, 15 Dec 2014 04:28:53 -0500

Knowing some enemies of the US to plot attacks to kill Americans and my fellow uniformed brethren are being tortured in America's defense doesn't cause me to lose any sleep at night.

There are times when I wish torture could be used in the US prison system for murderers, rapists, pedophiles, and molesters

Response by Sgt Adam Jennings made Dec 16 at 2014 11:48 AM

Sgt Adam Jennings — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 11:48:40 -0500

Because boot PFC Eric Minchey is a subject expert on war and torture, lol. What you fail to understand is those people that are being tortured are terrorists, they are a foreign enemy and they have no constitutional rights. In fact, they are the very people that would love nothing more than to destroy our country and our comstitution. I wish people would get off their morale high horses about this crap. No one had a problem with how the CIA did things before this came about, everyone was so happy that we got Osama and haven't had another attack on US soil because of the CIA's efforts.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 16 at 2014 10:09 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 22:09:43 -0500

I enjoy it from time to time, but you have to have a safe word. Wait...what are we talking about here?

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made Dec 17 at 2014 8:29 AM

1SG Harold Piet — Wed, 17 Dec 2014 08:29:39 -0500

My opinion is just my Opinion, But these dirtbags are cutting heads off people , even children and WOMAN, Flying planes into buildings, blowing up market places. If a little bit of pain and anguish will possibly result in some saved lives, I say go for it, just remember red is positive and black is negative and properly connected gives very bad burns, ask our men who where tortured in Vietnam and Germany. I say take 10 to the air in a chopper and through one out question the rest and let them know if their information proves false they are the next one to be thrown out. IF a Muslim is caught doing a terrorist act gather his remains and grind it with a pig and spray it over his families farm. We are the only nation that I know of that tries to follow the rules of war. It is causing us to loose a bunch of life's
and equipment.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Dec 17 at 2014 3:57 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Wed, 17 Dec 2014 15:57:41 -0500

I still need to lighten my mood......

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 17 at 2014 3:57 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 17 Dec 2014 15:57:25 -0500

I find it ironic that our congress men and women detest torture, but they have no problem with soldiers killing our enemies.

That is like saying, I like sweet potatoes but don''t like the skin.

Anyway i am bored right now thinking of torturing a fly that keeps buzzing 'round my head.

Response by Sgt Adam Jennings made Dec 17 at 2014 5:51 PM

Sgt Adam Jennings — Wed, 17 Dec 2014 17:51:51 -0500

For those of you that keep bringing up the Geneva Conventions you are dead wrong. The Geneva Conventions only apply to signatory nations, last I checked Al Queda and ISIS are not nations, lol. And it only applies in that we are to receive GC protections ONLY if the un-signatory nation agrees to those terms, again, Al Queda and ISIS are not nations. Since Al Queda and ISIS are not nations and are definitely not signatory nations they are NOT covered under the GC just as we have no reason to expect them to honor the GC. I could understand such outrage if we were drawing and quartering prisoners, racking them and then pulling out their internals, or putting them in the Iron Maiden, or summarily executing them. But to say we're touring someone by using techniques that only make the person uncomfortable and leave no lasting physical effects then you might as well consider SERE training, BUD/S, Ranger School, etc torture.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 17 at 2014 5:57 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 17 Dec 2014 17:57:25 -0500

If I'm just being honest.

Response by SSG Louis Marucci made Dec 19 at 2014 5:38 PM

SSG Louis Marucci — Fri, 19 Dec 2014 17:38:58 -0500

Much of your last two sentences are unintelligible and make no sense. Having said that, let me remind you that what the Nazis and Japanese did in WW II was torture as was Stalin's actions during his reign of terror. Later what the North Koreans did was torture. The NVA, Camir Rouge and countless other Communist countries tortured military and civilian personnel purely for the sake of torture. Currently, the beheadings, suicide bombings and shooting of civilians by Islamic terrorists in the name of, "religion", is torture. What the United States engaged in was information gathering from known or suspected terrorists and in no way can be compared to what the aforementioned purveyors of torture engaged in. Before criticizing our country, study the past then draw your conclusions from a foundation based on facts, Private.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2014 10:10 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Dec 2014 10:10:11 -0500

We should never descend or lower ourselves to their level. I understand what can be gained from it but at what point do we down the line. When you get into the grey area you never know how close you are to the black until you are clearly there. The really never know what your shade of grey may mean or where you are ethically. If torture produces such great results who doesn't law enforcement use it? They could answer a lot of question quick. You would deter crime and save people. But the question is it all worth it if you torture someone who is completely innocent? Who decides how far you do? What if they die? If you find yourself asking questions that you enemy may be when they detain someone and torture we are lowering ourselves. These guys are hardened killers. They deserve to die but torturing someone day in and day out is something else. If you really wanted to know how one felt you may want to ask a victim that was a POW in the Vietnam war. You could ask if we should do the same thing.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 26 at 2014 10:25 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 26 Dec 2014 10:25:30 -0500

I do bad things to bad people. That is where I stand, firmly.

Response by SPC Leisel Luman made Dec 26 at 2014 10:59 AM

SPC Leisel Luman — Fri, 26 Dec 2014 10:59:08 -0500

Sgt. Tahmooressi is a Florida boy too. Know this I would have water boarded every Mexican official who was involved in keeping him caged like a animal. I would have needed the help of some patriotic big boys to help me. I'm glad that you were raised in the protective bubble of the USA. It saddens me that you don't know who to thank for it. You are "entitled" to post this because of those who served before you. Do you think that if we ask "pretty please with sugar on top" that they will stop their ethnic cleansing program? I don't think so

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 26 at 2014 3:20 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 26 Dec 2014 15:20:38 -0500

I don't make a habit of wasting my time, or showing off my intellect by demeaning an individuals lack of knowledge on any topic. Marucci typed "your last two sentences are unintelligible and make no sense".

PFC Minchey? If you seek answers, put it in the form of a direct question. How people "feel" about EIT leave's it open for "opinion". Marucci I say this; instead of showing what you think you know about it, stay on topic, teach these young ones properly, or keep your personal "superior" attitude to yourself.

Depending on the response I receive, positive will assist me in deciding how much effort I should place on this topic. If others want to learn from research, and facts I'll be glad to share it. We'll call the uploaded jpg - a teaser for interest.

Response by LTC Martin Metz made Dec 27 at 2014 1:28 PM

LTC Martin Metz — Sat, 27 Dec 2014 13:28:25 -0500

Most of us, including me, have had little to no experience with torture. There may be an early point when essential information is needed quickly, but torture quickly results in diminishing returns as folks say whatever it takes to stop it. Everyone eventually has a breaking point. If time is of the essence, the ability to rate credible from dreck is also hard to do and can be subjective. History has way too notable instances of how poorly torture delivers. Look to the French in Algeria for extensive studies. Do your own research on this because we all have are own opinions in addition to the guidance from our military justice system as well as the accepted international applications from the Law of War. Knowing the background and building relations with sources is a better, more reliable technique when time is not driving the need for information. It leaves a far better legacy afterwards as well.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2014 2:56 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 27 Dec 2014 14:56:29 -0500

I'm ok with torture. After all, I'm a Giants fan.

Response by PO1 John Pokrzywa made Dec 29 at 2014 12:45 AM

PO1 John Pokrzywa — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 00:45:45 -0500

There's a difference between torture and interrogation, but they're but exclusive.
"Torture", (or what Democrats and other enemies of the war in Iraq call anything that makes a known terrorist prisoner uncomfortable, with hopes he will divulge life saving information) must definitely does give good information when applied correctly, rather than simply to harm (like in the movies).
Any graduate of SERE (at least ones who graduated when... techniques... were still being used in the curriculum) knows absolutely they work well.
At any rate a big reason we're in this dilemma is that democrats insisted even terrorists be treated either as civilians or as enemy combatants. The Geneva conventions do not apply to terrorists. When we decided that they should, we created our own ethical dilemma. I'm not upset if a guy that murdered 800 of his own people gets slapped around a bit until he gives up a cell still out there hurting people

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2014 9:02 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 09:02:50 -0500

Torture is a subjective term. The media sometimes polarizes the public, but intelligence tactics and actions are not largely understood by the General public. Tactics when dealing with the enemy are used and required as the situation dictates

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 31 at 2014 7:49 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 31 Dec 2014 07:49:55 -0500

When the fighters and leaders of ISIL are willing to fight to the last man, woman and child in order to see their goals accomplished, there is no means of dealing with them other than destroying them to the last man, woman and child. As Michael Caine said in The Dark Knight, "They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn." It's a sad and harsh reality, but it is reality nonetheless. I firmly believe that when our enemies are willing to use any and all means against us, we should be willing to entertain the same options against them. Just my two cents.

Response by SGT Robert Ishoy made Jan 13 at 2015 5:18 PM

SGT Robert Ishoy — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 17:18:08 -0500

I recently posted a podcast on the topic of torture and interrogation. Being a former interrogator and interrogation instructor I take this subject to heart. The podcast is at http://www.spreaker.com/user/rishoy if any of you would like to listen. I do get into detail regarding International and US law regarding torture as well as the moral implications of the use of torture. Above all, as a professional interrogator I do know that a more effective alternative does exist, at least for interrogators that have the proper skill set. If fact next week I am launching a new web based business that teaches the Art of Persuasion.

Robert Ishoy

Robert Ishoy

Historian, former military intelligence instructor, security professional and social scientist.

Response by MSgt Michelle Mondia made Feb 14 at 2015 1:18 PM

MSgt Michelle Mondia — Sat, 14 Feb 2015 13:18:19 -0500

What did these tactics accomplish? Please give me an example that doesn't throw back to the Salem Witch Trials? One person rats out their neighbor who then tells on a citizen they don't like...eventually it may have lead to burning a pagan women at the stake for using funny herbs to treat a child's cough. Are we getting solid leads or just being led? If terrorists inspired us to except this as a go to tactic were losing the moral high ground. Our humanity is worth more than finding a hard drive.

Response by SSG Leonard Johnson made Feb 14 at 2015 11:57 PM

SSG Leonard Johnson — Sat, 14 Feb 2015 23:57:27 -0500

Here's the deal brotha..... I have no problem on torturing anyone who is not American, or is about to do harm to our country.
I have plenty of years...so I heard all sides of the argument. If they not going to follow the rules...then we shouldn't.
think about it....remember over in the sandbox if u even reached for a 9mm or your knife in front of the hajjis....they respected you...cuz they know what was coming next....don't know why...they didn't do that if you pointed a rifle at them....I think saddam probably tortured them so much they knew what was coming.
that my take though....opinions are like you know what....everyone got one ;)

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2015 6:56 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 18:56:13 -0500

Torture is one of the most evil and reprehensible things one human being can do to another. It should never be used, anyone caught torturing their fellow human beings should be severely punished. There is no justification for torture, just as there is no justification for rape.

Response by SP5 Joel McDargh made Feb 21 at 2015 2:37 PM

SP5 Joel McDargh — Sat, 21 Feb 2015 14:37:41 -0500

I firmly believe that torture by whatever means is necessary to gain information required to protect our troops. Must this nation be the only one which plays by the rules of the Geneva Convention when most others do not? Maybe it is extreme cruelty, but then is that not what war is?

Response by SP5 Joel McDargh made Feb 21 at 2015 2:41 PM

SP5 Joel McDargh — Sat, 21 Feb 2015 14:41:19 -0500

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2015 7:58 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Aug 2015 07:58:25 -0400

Personally I think you shouldnt be in the Army if you think that way, and have to wonder if youd be the type to go lay water out across our states bordering Mexico to help them survive the illegal crossing into the United States....

With that said, I think the United States has held its head high long enough, I see no reason why we should be the only country that plays fair and regulate our Soldiers and contracts from extracting information. Our Soldiers get beheaded for accidentally or intentionally(in some cases) burning a Kuran. And what do we receive? Training on how to properly handle a Kuran...

I am sure there is surveys and reports that X amount of percent of interrogations lead to false reporting or lies just to end the suffering. But there terrorists, so I truly dont give two $hits what they go through, they have done worst, and if given the opportunity will do worst. Are mistakes made? Sure but its war, alot of things become fuzzy and in the grey matter, we are not the peace corps nor the boyscouts, we didnt goto these countries to show them how to make smores.

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made Aug 24 at 2015 11:57 AM

LCpl Mark Lefler — Mon, 24 Aug 2015 11:57:08 -0400

i have no issue with us torturing people who want to kill us.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 24 at 2015 12:22 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Mon, 24 Aug 2015 12:22:54 -0400

I don't condone torture, but I can understand how the soldiers and marines feel when fighting an enemy who relishes torturing and killing.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Aug 24 at 2015 12:42 PM

SGT Ben Keen — Mon, 24 Aug 2015 12:42:06 -0400

I read over this thread a few times before deciding to write a reply. I know it was first posted over a year ago but hey, it came up on feed so here we go.

War is not pretty. War is not nice. Our enemies are neither nice or friendly. Those of us that been in combat know this all to well. We have seen the bodies of Americans hang from bridges. We have seen children used as human shields or instruments of destruction. This is war, and while you may or may not agree with 100% of what is done, it's just the nature of the beast. Does it excuse the behavior? No it does not. Does it give us a free license to act how ever we want? No it does not. Yet, the nature of war has since the first time a human picked up a rock and threw it at another human has always been ugly. Sure we have "rules" and "codes of conduct" but we know know that those rules are only as good as the paper they are written on when the enemy refuses to follow them too.

Is torture or its products any good? It can be. Should it continue? I would say in some ways it should but in others it shouldn't. Pulling the finger nails out of the hands of someone or not allowing them sleep or food can of course lead someone to talk but is that what we are reduced to in a time of war? Are we forced to discard our decent human behavior in the name of freedom to gather what we hope is good intel from the enemy? What are your thoughts on torture if it is prove that it's products enabled you and your team t find the location of a huge enemy stronghold and remove that from the battlefield saving thousands of lives including your own?

War is a double edge sword. It is raw, nasty and does not say sorry. And those of us that have been asked to do some things are forced to pay the everlasting price.