Where does a cadet's rank fall among active duty Soldiers?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 13:25:31 -0400

So I was told by my commander that a cadet ranks in between a Warrant Officer and a Commissioned Officer. So if this is correct a cadet out ranks a CW5? HA-HA! I would like to see that cadet try to make any kind of statement against him/her. Why is this and should it change?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 1:29 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 13:29:06 -0400

Just a student in college is pretty much what they are.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 1:29 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 13:29:23 -0400

A cadets is in school and has not yet commissioned therefore he/she has no rank in the Military.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 1:29 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 13:29:40 -0400

Doesn't relation change temporarily during helo flight school etc while being trained by WO?

Also, when cadets are placed on board a ship during summer don't they have some status?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 1:30 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 13:30:28 -0400

Cadets don't hold any rank in the formal Military structure. Sounds like your Commander is a little confused.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 1:31 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 13:31:55 -0400

I was always told any active duty solder be he e-1 or o-9 out ranked a cadet because they're still in school and thus outside of any chain of command

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 1:44 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 13:44:17 -0400

Okay that's funny. A cadet does not have the authority. They do, however, have general military authority as we all do.

Response by SFC John Durham made Aug 29 at 2015 1:44 PM

SFC John Durham — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 13:44:40 -0400

A Cadet is a Dot on a map that they won't be able to find until 1st Lt, for most lol. They are neither commissioned or appointed! Kinda like a E-4, and should be treated as such!

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Aug 29 at 2015 1:47 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 13:47:40 -0400

A Cadet and a Recruit are of "comparable" status, being that one applies to the Officer track, while one applies to the Enlisted track. Neither are truly a "rank" however, but they generally have a "pay-grade." So, what we have is individuals who are "outside" the normal structure. They do not exist inside the normal hierarchy, which goes E1-9, W1, CW2-5, O1-O10 (unless they are concurrently holding an E-rank).

This issue is actually highlighted quite well in R.A. Heinlein's Starship Troopers, where Cadets while serving with Active Duty were "frocked" as 3rd Lieutenants, so that they had "Formal" rank and recognition.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 1:50 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 13:50:51 -0400

Cadets hold no rank while in school. However, while in the Simultaneous Membership Program (SMP) in the reserves or guard or while conducting Cadet Troop Leadership Training (CTLT) they hold a rank that sits between E-9 and WO1. They have no actual rank but are supposed to be treated like 3LTs and given the respect and courtesy due a junior lieutenant.

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made Aug 29 at 2015 1:58 PM

MAJ Jim Woods — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 13:58:54 -0400

A cadet has no rank compared to the Active Army. They may be given "Shadow" duty (to shadow a Platoon Leader or Staff Officer) but they do not have the authority or responsibility of that position.

Response by 1SG Cameron M. Wesson made Aug 29 at 2015 2:05 PM

1SG Cameron M. Wesson — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 14:05:53 -0400

Team... I would strongly recommend you read AR 600-20... that should lend some facts to the question... table 1-1 provides that a cadet does rate higher than any enlisted soldier and a OC... WOC. Table 1-2 provides the same between services.

What people forget is that responsibility is given by the commander... I had a USMA cadet in a CTLT position in korea back in 90/91. I was a PSG... he was nominally the PL... but my CO said, "cadet... you dont shit unless SSG Wesson clears it! You read me?"

There is regulation... and there is reality.

With this said, we... as leaders... regardless of rank... should never miss an oppurtunity to "shape" a future leader... in the case of NCOs... those leaders that will/do out rank you. It is this interaction that a possible future senior leader will remember. On a few occasions I have been on the receiving end with a senior that had a poor experience. I spent a great deal of time trying to corrrect that challenge... time better spent concentrating on the real mission.

Again... my two cents

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Aug 29 at 2015 2:07 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 14:07:07 -0400

Cadets are college kids with x-amount of practice playing soldier right out of the Infantry manual. They might be heading to a seat at the big table, but they have a long way to go. As NCO's, we get the honor of helping them emerge from their shell and pointing them in the right direction. One bit of wisdom from a respected NCO at that stage of their military life will lay the foundation for their entire career. Sounds like your commander has some unresolved self-esteem issues from when he was a cadet to make a profound statement like that. I would also love to be part of the clean up detail after a cadet locked horns with a CSM or a CW5. Poor kid's autonomic nerve response system would shut down, and the smell of fecal matter would contaminate the entire AO, and his head would explode.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 2:09 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 14:09:08 -0400

Nope, regardless as an incoming Soldier your still a civilian until graduation of basic, don't sugar coat cadets with anything more.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 2:10 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 14:10:56 -0400

AR 600-22 implies that a cadet out ranks all enlisted and is out ranked by all warrants and officers.

"On death, disability, or absence of all officers of a unit normally commanded by an officer, the appropriate commander of the next higher command permanently assigns an officer to command, preferably of the branch to which the unit belongs. Pending assignment and arrival of the new commander, the senior WO, cadet, NCO, specialist, or private regularly."

There is more scattered throughout the regulation but this drives the point home in the random chance these qualifiers all happened at the same time.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 2:25 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 14:25:23 -0400

ALCON, whether you agree with this or not, it's in AR 600-20. READ and educate yourselves.
It's not about making corrections or they're role in the military. We as NCOs uphold our rapport with our Officers and cadets with expertise, standards, and discipline. That within itself will earn your respect with those Cadets who no little about our craft.

Response by SGT Scott Bell made Aug 29 at 2015 2:28 PM

SGT Scott Bell — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 14:28:13 -0400

he have no rank yet

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 2:32 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 14:32:33 -0400

I always considered them as a 4th Lieutenant. Calling them a 3LT might give them an ego trip.

Response by SGT Jeremiah B. made Aug 29 at 2015 2:33 PM

SGT Jeremiah B. — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 14:33:58 -0400

My experience training cadets during summers was somewhere below private but somewhere above civilian. We gave them SOME courtesies as possible future officers but they followed directions whether it was an O-6 or E-2.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 2:35 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 14:35:22 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member, your Commander is comical and you can tell him that I said so. He needs to read AR 600-20 table 1-1 before he makes comments like that. According to table 1-1, cadets and officer candidates, to include Warrant candidates rank above all enlisted but under all Warrant Officers and O-Grade Officers.

Response by SPC James Seigars made Aug 29 at 2015 2:43 PM

SPC James Seigars — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 14:43:33 -0400

As someone else stated, there is regulation and there is reality. Regulation says they are above enlisted & most lower/mid level officers/high level warrant's. However reality/experience says they are between a PFC and a Specialist/Corporal and should look to any Officer or NCO as a mentor and even some E-4's according to that soldier's age /experience in said MOS/Field of expertise.

Response by SPC George Grimm made Aug 29 at 2015 2:53 PM

SPC George Grimm — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 14:53:58 -0400

I had to work with cadets while I was enlisted and my 1sg told us to treat them as a pvt! So that's what happened!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 3:03 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:03:40 -0400

Way back when...a cadet was a cadet...nothing more in U.S Army. They have not taken an oath. If they were assigned to an Active Duty Unit for training, they were given respect, they held no rank except for Cadet. If the unit were deployed...the cadet went back to his school. But that was "way back when..." :-)

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made Aug 29 at 2015 3:07 PM

SSG Kevin McCulley — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:07:19 -0400

Yep.. the army values the decision making capability of someone who lacks a fully developed brain over an NCO.. The systemic bias of against enlisted continues...

Response by MAJ Keith FitzPatrick, CPIM, CSCP made Aug 29 at 2015 3:18 PM

MAJ Keith FitzPatrick, CPIM, CSCP — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:18:40 -0400

As mentioned earlier, they do have rank when serving in a SMP or CTLT position. If they are smart they will shut up and listen; if you are professional, you will treat them with the respect they deserve.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Aug 29 at 2015 3:32 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:32:25 -0400

When I was in "I was told they were equivalent to an E-5" as far as how they should be treated. I do know that while in Pensacola for A and C School the Midshipmen at Aviation Officers Candidate School didn't warrant a Salute from us but since their Vehicles had Officers Stickers we had to Salute them when they entered Corry Station in their cars. I suspect they were just as fond of the name Cadet as I was of Recruit. I was so glad the first time our C/C called us Sailors.

Response by SPC Kimberley Kerr made Aug 29 at 2015 3:32 PM

SPC Kimberley Kerr — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:32:25 -0400

As far as I can remember dots had no rank but we did have to refer to the as sir or ma'am out of respect for their intended rank

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 4:14 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 16:14:09 -0400

Don't salute and try not to call them by their first name.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 4:16 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 16:16:31 -0400

ALCON sometimes a cadet might be prior enlisted so please don't discount them completely as all being idiots. You will know the difference if you spend a few minutes talking to him/her.

Response by SSG Leo Bell made Aug 29 at 2015 4:23 PM

SSG Leo Bell — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 16:23:50 -0400

Yes what the Co told you was correct.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 4:30 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 16:30:50 -0400

If, as Junior Enlisted members or NCO's, you treat that Cadet like they belong "somewhere above civilians but below an E-1", the the kind of Officer, Company Commander, etc. that they will develop into is one that is extremely resentful toward the enlisted ranks. You have no grounds to complain about officers not respecting the enlisted side, if during their formative years all you did is disrespect them.

And, again, you never know where that "ca-dot" is coming from. Many are prior enlisted and have been Squad leaders, PSG's, etc with many, many more years experience than you.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 4:33 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 16:33:23 -0400

I see my share of cadets in the Reserves while working in the RPAC as a Civilian Military Technician.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 4:56 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 16:56:54 -0400

I don't think it really matters where they rank. They come in for tours or for a little experience, put them to work. Show respect, but don't trip over yourself or go overboard with them. They are still learning and should be handled as such.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 5:10 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 17:10:39 -0400

They get paid at an e5 level, and are generally placed in platoon leader positions.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 6:16 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 18:16:20 -0400

Well, I usually giggle at Cadets, but I am sure there is a regulation out there. I did see a CDT be placed as a Company XO with the CC being a 2LT.

Response by SSG Buddy Kemper made Aug 29 at 2015 6:36 PM

SSG Buddy Kemper — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 18:36:45 -0400

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23quTgBBDYo

HAIL OH HAIL OH INFANTRY ARMY CADENCE

HAIL THE INFANTRY ARMY CADENCE "I'm a big bird in the sky all will jump and some will die, off to battle we will go, to live or die hell I don't know!" Up in...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 6:38 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 18:38:22 -0400

Under enlisted, they are to stand at parade rest for active duty

Response by SFC Jon Vandeyacht made Aug 29 at 2015 7:00 PM

SFC Jon Vandeyacht — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 19:00:33 -0400

I was an NCO, I worked with cadets, I gave them respect of future officers I never saluted them and I never took orders from them. The smart ones new that they are just students so they took the advice they enjoyed what training opportunities I gave them and then took it back to school.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 7:29 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 19:29:33 -0400

The warrant officer part is a little odd for sure but leave that out and it's still odd. A cadet or midshipmen "outranks" an E9 but has 0 control over them. No positional authority.

The ranking doesn't have to do with the cadet giving orders but rather his position as an officer candidate whose next promotion will make him an O1. If your next promotion is an O1 where are you placed? It's an administrative rank really.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Aug 29 at 2015 7:55 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 19:55:05 -0400

A cadet might out rank me but they better be ready to accept accountability and responsibility for they will be legally and morally bound to all standards I am held to. If they aren't ready to accept that during their stay in a platoon, tell them to stand back and observe and be ready to act when they receive instructions.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Aug 29 at 2015 8:38 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 20:38:41 -0400

You don't rank at all as you are still a civilian and don't fall under UCMJ even if you sign the contract. This may be slightly different for the Service Academies. You are afforded the treatment of a 2LT when in a military environment and in uniform with cadet rank but that's all.

Essentially there's you as a cadet then PV1 :-)

Response by COL Jon Thompson made Aug 29 at 2015 8:54 PM

COL Jon Thompson — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 20:54:02 -0400

When at cadet is at a CTLT or DCLT, the NCOs with that unit can have a huge impact in the development of that future officer. What they observe and learn about NCOs will carry over to when they indeed are officers. So IMO any NCO that has an opportunity to work with cadets in any aspect has a special duty to the future Army leadership.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Aug 29 at 2015 9:09 PM

LTC Stephen F. — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:09:52 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member per AR 600-20, USMA cadets [USAFA cadets, USNA midshipmen] rank between Warrant Officer 1 and CSM.
The rank structure is listed in Table 1-1 "Grades, Army" on page 3 of AR 600-20 dated 6 November 2014. The rank precedence is listed on Table 1-2 "Comparable grades among the Services."
In the Army, USMA and ROTC cadets are to be addressed as Mr, Miss or Cadet while soldiers in the OCS program are to be addressed as candidate. The hyperlink source is below. Disclaimer, I am a graduate of the USMA Class of 1980.
http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r600_20.pdf
COL Mikel J. Burroughs, COL Jon Thompson, LTC Stephen C., MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca, CPT L S, CW5 Charlie Poulton, CW5 Charlie Poulton, CW4 Private RallyPoint Member, CW3 Private RallyPoint Member, SGM Steve Wettstein, CMSgt Mark Schubert, SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas, GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad,

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2015 10:50 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 22:50:32 -0400

Not sure about other services or if it has changed since I retired. However, when I was active duty Air Force, Cadets do not have rank and do not out rank enlisted nor enlisted out rank them. No saluting them and they could not be in a supervisory roll over enlisted because they were not considered to be on "active duty".

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Aug 30 at 2015 1:16 AM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 01:16:36 -0400

On the trail at Jackson, we had a "cadet" who thought he was an officer. Yes we told our trainees to salute them because someday they were to be officers. But we also had to keep them in line. One time a cadet stated chewing out one of the Assistant Drills, when the PS came back he was in the cadets face - "You're nothing more than a glorified E-5" and sent him off with his tail between his legs. The other side of the coin I've been around cadets who knew who they were (maybe because they were previous enlisted/NCOs) and took their ques from the PL/PS.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2015 1:41 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 01:41:05 -0400

I was always told as enlisted, to stand at parade rest and refer to them politely aka sir, ma'am or ms, mr and stand at parade rest I have never run into a cadidiot who hasn't been super embarrassed by this display but I continue it unless I'm giving a lesson on medical stuff

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Aug 30 at 2015 1:47 AM

1LT William Clardy — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 01:47:29 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member, technically I outrank any Chief Wobbly, but you won't find me treating one of those not-commissioned-but-not-noncommissioned officers with any less respect than I afford to sergeants major and sergeants first class.

By the same token, when I was an ROTC cadet, I expected the NCOs to demonstrate similar courtesy and respect towards me, regardless of the fact that I had no official command authority.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2015 2:29 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 02:29:51 -0400

This is the kind of happy horse sh!t that is rampant in the Army regarding rules, regulations,customs and courtesies! It is sickening. The shot group needs to be tightened and leaders and NCOs need to educate themselves. There is a Regulation or guidance for everything we do in the Army for Pete Sake!
I wonder what else this Commander does that he invented in his head?

Response by CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2015 5:24 AM

CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 05:24:15 -0400

Sergent, the Cadet ranks below a Warrant. Their pay grade is E5, and they don't have any real command power. They are only above enlisted and candidates. AR 600-20

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made Aug 30 at 2015 8:25 AM

SFC Joseph Weber — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 08:25:54 -0400

Above Bear Cub, below Webelo.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Aug 30 at 2015 9:10 AM

Cpl Jeff N. — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 09:10:45 -0400

The Marine Corps doesn't really have cadets except when cadets attending Annapolis decide to go to the Marine Corps. I think they still attend both OCS and TBS (although I could be mistaken about OCS). I worked at OCS at Quantico back in 1982 (doing aggressor/demonstration etc) and the candidates there (not really cadets) had no rank. They were only referred to as "candidate" and that was usually spoken with a little disdain/sarcasm in the voice.

It seems inconceivable to me that in the Army a cadet would have "rank" above an E9 and a warrant officer. That seems mildly insulting to senior enlisted and warrant officers, really to anyone that actually holds rank. That looks like one of your regulations begging to evolve.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2015 9:35 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 09:35:14 -0400

It always impresses me how much people don't know yet think they do. Please read AR 600-20 as 1SG Cameron M. Wesson recommends. While I don't think there will be CSMs working for Cadets anytime soon, but it is important we have the right information, especially when blasting it out on a professional forum.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2015 10:11 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 10:11:28 -0400

Technically he is correct. It's a tradition that goes back to Washington's time. It works in the Army because of NCO's that are trained to work with junior officers. It's a tradition and a courtesy, but is it gets out of hand then bring it to the attention of the 1SG. They will get it corrected because the courtesy should not be abused.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 30 at 2015 10:58 AM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 10:58:28 -0400

I would probably tell them that they have no authority to order my soldiers.

Response by Cpl Chris Cargile made Aug 30 at 2015 1:51 PM

Cpl Chris Cargile — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 13:51:42 -0400

A great explanation can be had out of Starship Troopers (the book, not the movie), toward the end.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Aug 30 at 2015 2:46 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 14:46:07 -0400

Cadet ranks in between walmart employee and the lady that works at the dining facility cashier counter.

A Cadet has no "rank" as far as UCMJ or active duty rank structure. They are simply a cadet, and have only the authority that is given to them by the commander that supervisors them.
While it is common for a Cadet in thier third or fourth year at a service academy to be placed in a leadership position at a unit.. they are often told to perform the duties of something like a PL, or "Ammo PL" but only in regards to existing plans, SOP's, or other established training plans of the basic nature. So they might help plan a vehicle movement to the Mount site, lead the movement along a known route following existing and established procedures but they will not be establishing an off site AHA with live and blank ammo, setting security, safety measures, accountability procedures., issuing and reconciliation procedures.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Aug 30 at 2015 2:48 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 14:48:08 -0400

"So I was told by my commander that a cadet ranks in between a Warrant Officer and a Commissioned Officer"
Suggest to that commander you wish to be as informed as he is, and you want to understand fully the regulations, policies and procedures that place a Cadet in rank between a Warrant Officer and a Commissioned Officer. Ask that commander for the regulation, policy letter that supports that position so you can be better informed.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2015 4:27 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 16:27:41 -0400

Cadets are the highest ranking enlisted soldiers, and they do not get saluted.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2015 4:31 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 16:31:16 -0400

When I was a cadet I was also in the guard. I was paid at the grade of an E-5. My commander treated me like an officer and commanded the troops to do the same. That made a huge impact on my development as a leader. I've seen some NG units treat cadets like absolute trash (worse than privates) and not take the unique opportunity they have to mentor mold a future leader and set them up for success before he/she even dawns the butterbar. I got lucky. Dont squander an opportunity to help a young future officer for a quick laugh with your buddies.

Response by TSgt Gerald Wilson made Aug 30 at 2015 5:13 PM

TSgt Gerald Wilson — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 17:13:51 -0400

Interesting question. I googled "rank of academy cadets relative to active duty" and got nothing. I do know I saw a pack of ROTC summer campers in the chow hall once. They looked ridiculous, - shameful to the point that I told one guy to get a haircut. (I was an E-4 at the time. Loadmasters are taught to fix what's wrong before it flies LOL.) Good grief.

Response by 1SG David Lopez made Aug 30 at 2015 6:07 PM

1SG David Lopez — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 18:07:38 -0400

Cadets are not in the Military "Yet." That being said, they are actually students, college students, studying to becamoe an Officer in our military. We send them to training and try to treat them as a Lieutenant and give them leadership responsibilities to carry out for training purposes, but they are not really in the Military just yet. If they were in the Military, they might lead a platoon in a combat AO, we know that ain't gonna happen any time soon. Working at West Point and Cal Poly ROTC and ROTC Advance Camp, I have never seen a Cadet try to pull rank on anyone, normally they are smart, humble, and always learning. They are preparing to become an Officer, and they act accordingly. Just my two cents.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2015 6:51 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 18:51:32 -0400

Contracted ROTC cadets are considered SGT (E-5) equivalent in the DOD ID Card system. I think this sheds some light on the reality of where they fall. However, once Junior and Senior cadets go to Active Duty units for CTLT, they are usually treated as a 2LTs in order help prepare them for their next job. I think it does a lot for them when they fill the shoes of a PL. At the same time, no smart Cadet will try to pull anything on an Active Duty Soldier, NCO, or WO. Any respectable Officer would steer them in the right direction. Great question!

Response by SSG Stephen Arnold made Aug 30 at 2015 7:55 PM

SSG Stephen Arnold — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:55:28 -0400

I thought a cadet was a model of lawn tractor.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2015 10:36 PM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 22:36:05 -0400

In my opinion cadet rank doesn't mean much, especially outside the school house. The dot mostly gets mistaken for a LTC/ SPC rank anyway. I don't think any cadet should go into a unit (SMP, CTLT) expecting a lot of respect because of the dot in the center of their chest. Any respect that they do eventually get will be earned by the way they conduct themselves, care for the soldiers around them, and accomplish the mission set out by the CDR. Cadets who go in thinking they are "owed something" by the NCOs/ junior enlisted usually figure it out pretty quick - sometimes the hard way.

Response by SGT Eric House made Aug 31 at 2015 2:51 AM

SGT Eric House — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 02:51:19 -0400

We called them dots!

Response by PO1 Rick Serviss made Aug 31 at 2015 3:56 AM

PO1 Rick Serviss — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 03:56:46 -0400

My friend's son graduates from USMA in May. The Army sent him to Korea for some type of leadership training. He was teamed up with an LT mentor. What is taught there that can't be taught stateside?

Response by SGT William Howell made Aug 31 at 2015 8:53 AM

SGT William Howell — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 08:53:35 -0400

According to AR-600-20 they are not very high in the food chain, but the CO can change that.

One of my squad went to Iraq as an E-4 and made SGT while he was there. Upon returning he went back to college and joined ROTC 3rd year. He was as squared away as they come. He went from team leader to PTL overnight because the commander knew he could count on him and wanted him to get immersed as quickly as possible. We probably gave him more respect than any 2LT just coming in, just because he was one of our own that we trusted and he made good. He now has his Ranger Tab and just made Major.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 31 at 2015 8:59 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 08:59:46 -0400

Why do you care, exactly?
"So if this is correct a cadet out ranks a CW5? HA-HA! I would like to see that cadet try to make any kind of statement against him/her." - So, to you, rank is about bossing people around?
Sweet attitude, man. I'm sure you're a pleasure to work for.

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made Aug 31 at 2015 10:10 AM

SSG Richard Reilly — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 10:10:04 -0400

I always had trouble recoinzing a dot or a diamond. Something about those made me want to ignore them. I mean I always respected everyone with or without rank. But I can't see a dot with was in high school a week ago telling me to do anything without me looking at him like a dick is growing out his forehead.

Excuse my french but it was needed to sentence enhancement.

Response by SGT George Romiti made Aug 31 at 2015 11:09 AM

SGT George Romiti — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 11:09:35 -0400

Lol yea, my Platoon Leader had a cadet shadowing him, and he was such a dick head, throwing his rank like some General! He asked me a question and he didn't like my answer so he told me to do push-ups, which for years I've only done for PT, I never get in trouble! So I told him my combat boots saw more action than him and he didn't like that either, and I got down as a direct order, but I did it by my First Sergeants office... When my PL and Top came out they asked, "what did he do" and he told them my smart ass remark! My PL grabbed him and threw him outside and smoked the dog shit out of him! He told him his rank was dog shit here and that I, Section Sgt. at the time was his boss until he leaves here! He had to right a essay for me! As well a formal apology in front of the company formation! Hahaha memories!

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made Aug 31 at 2015 11:48 AM

Capt Mark Strobl — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 11:48:40 -0400

Cadets/Midshipmen, are an appendage that no one knows with what to do. They're (hopefully) all going on to be good 2ndLt's and Ensigns. While, I'll defer to 1SG Cameron M. Wesson's official assessment, I'll offer this. Regardless of YOUR rank, take the time to teach them about the "real" Army, Navy, etc. --While on active duty, they are there to train... and be trained. How you interact with a youngster in this odd-ball capacity will have a very impactful impression their development into a young officer.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Aug 31 at 2015 1:23 PM

GySgt Kenneth Pepper — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 13:23:28 -0400

Bottom line...do everything possible to assist in the development of a potential leader. Mentoring is a two-way street. Every interaction that young cadet, midshipman or ROTC member has is going to shape his/her leadership style. Have a positive impact by being a role model.

Response by SPC Sheila Lewis made Aug 31 at 2015 1:24 PM

SPC Sheila Lewis — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 13:24:12 -0400

Don't forget practical experience, it is just as important as book knowledge.

Response by LCDR Jeffery Dixon made Aug 31 at 2015 1:33 PM

LCDR Jeffery Dixon — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 13:33:59 -0400

As a NROTC candidate myself I was discharged as a Seaman before I was commisssioned as an officer.
Our summer (cruises or internships were split).
One year, third class cruise (Freshman to Sophomor years) we wore enlisted uniforms as a non NCO. Our first class cruise (Jr. year to Senior year) we wore the uniforms of an officer with our midshipman rank.
Non commissioned Cadets do not outrank CW.

Response by CPL Randy Bautista made Aug 31 at 2015 2:02 PM

CPL Randy Bautista — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 14:02:57 -0400

A cadet doesn't outrank anybody not even a private, but being that they are in officer school and are becoming officers they get officer treatment from lower I listed.

Response by CSM Michael Poll made Aug 31 at 2015 2:56 PM

CSM Michael Poll — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 14:56:55 -0400

A cadet while on Military duty receives E-5 pay.. I would treat them as such as A young leader in need of much attention and mentorship. Treat them well train them right, and they will turn out to be fine Officers one day.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 31 at 2015 3:20 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 15:20:27 -0400

when the Cadets came to Pendleton we were told to see them as LCpl (E-3).

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 31 at 2015 4:32 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 16:32:15 -0400

Cadets rank between Officer Candidates and Warrant Officers. Cadets are required to salute Warrant Officers in accordance with AR600-20 precedence chart on page 3. Cadet's are not to be saluted, unless ordered by a commander.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Aug 31 at 2015 5:22 PM

SGT Bryon Sergent — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 17:22:05 -0400

Cadets have Rank! LOL I thought they where just black ink spots on their chest.

Just Kidding sorry. I treat them, when they are training in my unit as my PL, as My PL.

Response by SMSgt Scott Burns made Aug 31 at 2015 6:23 PM

SMSgt Scott Burns — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 18:23:24 -0400

I don't know where cadets fall in the rank structure, I have never seen them placed anywhere in the rank structure...also, When I enlisted I took an oath to follow the orders of the officers appointed over me, not cadets...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 31 at 2015 7:23 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 19:23:53 -0400

No, they are somewhere between KP, and butlers. They are there to earn, and ask questions, most of them are put into doing very menial jobs.

Response by SFC A.M. Drake made Aug 31 at 2015 8:29 PM

SFC A.M. Drake — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 20:29:22 -0400

This is not true, they are in a school environment and they are not commissioned as regular or reserve officers yet until they grad and take Oath of Commissioning DA-71

Response by CWO3 Shawn Kopaczewski made Aug 31 at 2015 10:29 PM

CWO3 Shawn Kopaczewski — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 22:29:23 -0400

Same as a commission for a Mid shipman get one and you are equal to a Butter bar 2nd Lt with out a commission stay out of this retired CWO3 way and once you get one Ditto.

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 31 at 2015 10:48 PM

Col Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 22:48:50 -0400

All I can say is when I was in Army ROTC, even the enlisted outranked me! Especially since ROTC was considered a training environment. As far as the commissioning goes, you don't get commissioned until after graduation.

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made Sep 1 at 2015 4:05 AM

1SG Harold Piet — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 04:05:09 -0400

I know as an E-6 one was assigned as my motor officer temporary, back in the early 80's. And I had to assist the poor kid out the door of a c-130 on his 6th jump because he was so scared was about to mess up his uniform. Then he accused me of throwing him out the door. The commander was at the door as the jump master and dogged him out for a weak exit. They gave him his butter bar on the drop zone at Fort Bragg. NC.

Response by TSgt Terry Crihfield made Sep 1 at 2015 10:53 AM

TSgt Terry Crihfield — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 10:53:16 -0400

When I was in BMTs, in 1972, I saw two cadets approaching our flight, I started to call everyone to attention, but my TI yelled, "Don't salute them, they're lower than whale shit!" The two cadets made a quick retreat around the corner. Maybe things have changed over the years.

Response by CPT Jason Torpy made Sep 1 at 2015 11:41 AM

CPT Jason Torpy — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 11:41:16 -0400

above CW5 and below 2LT, and if any cadet is stupid enough to pull rank, I'm sure the nearest 2LT+ will beat the stupid out of them.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 1 at 2015 12:06 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 12:06:50 -0400

Remember, how an NCO treats a Cadet early in his career will shape how, in turn, treats others. So, cadet-baiting is a fun sport but yields very poor fruit. What rank he/she functionally is matters a lot less than seeing the backbone of our Army demonstrate the professionalism we want them to emulate.

Response by CPT Khaled Mohtady made Sep 1 at 2015 12:31 PM

CPT Khaled Mohtady — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 12:31:09 -0400

A Cadet gets paid as E6 and is acting as a Junior Commissioned Officer in training. He or she dose not out rank a CW5. Because they in in training and not yet Commissioned.

Response by CW2 Carl Swanson made Sep 1 at 2015 12:39 PM

CW2 Carl Swanson — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 12:39:49 -0400

AR 600-20 states that a Cadet falls between a Warrant Officer Candidate and a W-1.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 1 at 2015 1:05 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 13:05:09 -0400

My view is below PV2 unless prior service

Response by MAJ Bill Maynard made Sep 1 at 2015 1:07 PM

MAJ Bill Maynard — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 13:07:39 -0400

Cadets are basically 3rd Lieutenants with NO authority - they are there to learn and observe and interact - not give orders.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 1 at 2015 1:14 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 13:14:26 -0400

Where does a Cadets rank fall? Is this really a question worthy of debate? A Cadet is just that a Cadet! They are not commissioned nor are they Enlisted! A Caddet MAY one day become a Commissioned Officer but untill that day comes, a Cadet is just another kid trying to get into MY Army!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 1 at 2015 2:15 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 14:15:22 -0400

Cadets are around E4 / E5 pay I think but, commission as 2LT. Not sure what their CAC's say. But yes, I believe they outrank a WO5; however, I would think they would know better. Similar to a 2LT trying to tell a SGM what to do....

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 1 at 2015 2:22 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 14:22:26 -0400

I would tell you that your commander is mistaken in this. If you reference AR 600-20 you will see that a Cadet ranks between Enlisted and Warrant.

Response by SrA Scott Harris made Sep 1 at 2015 2:43 PM

SrA Scott Harris — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 14:43:09 -0400

I was USAF, so I'm not really sure about WO ranks per se. However, how would this be any different than a 2LT (O-1) outranking a CMS (E-9)? Yes the O-1 outranks the E-9, but unless you're a complete moron you're going to put a lot of weight into what an E-9 of 30 years experience tells you....Or for that matter what an E-6 of 10 years tells you.

Response by CPL Jay Strickland made Sep 1 at 2015 3:04 PM

CPL Jay Strickland — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 15:04:33 -0400

While technically true any cadet who pulls ranking on a CW or senior NCO for that matter is almost certainly destined to wash out of the ROTC program they are a part of.

Response by MAJ James Phillips made Sep 1 at 2015 3:04 PM

MAJ James Phillips — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 15:04:40 -0400

Having been a cadet once... So long ago... A Cadet falls Under the warrant officer ranks.
And I would like to see a cadet try to tell a CSM what to do. Ha!

Response by PO3 David Davis made Sep 1 at 2015 3:10 PM

PO3 David Davis — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 15:10:11 -0400

My understanding when I was in the Navy. No one in training out ranked anyone. That's the way it should be. I was in Little Creek. I didn't take any shit from Cadets.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 1 at 2015 3:41 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 15:41:59 -0400

A cadet is just that, a cadet. They have no legal rank that I can find. Commanders put them in positions of leadership, so they can learn. Technically, an E1 private is higher ranking...

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Sep 1 at 2015 4:32 PM

CPT Pedro Meza — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 16:32:08 -0400

SSG Lawrence Johnson, as a previous cadet under the SMP program your CO related BS, and I have been a CO but never related BS. Most Warrant Officer are more tech proficient that most commissioned officers, as for CW5, best to call the GodFathers, that is one Mafia.

Response by Capt Walter Miller made Sep 1 at 2015 4:42 PM

Capt Walter Miller — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 16:42:25 -0400

We used to get Naval Academy Midshipmen on board USS Simon Lake in the summers. The rank and file sailors (so to speak) totally ignored them. We would crack off the most perfect salutes we could, which they always promptly returned, but that was just to mess with them, since it was so much fun to watch the swab jockies totally ignore them.

Walt

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 1 at 2015 7:27 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 19:27:23 -0400

I'd like to echo what 1SG Cameron M. Wesson said. Regulations, not Opinions.

But whatever the regulations say, try to remember that Cadet Snotty will soon be 2LT Snotty, and will really have the rank and responsibility of the position. The best thing you can do is treat them like 2LTs and try to get the point across that a PSG has 10-20 years of experience doing what they are just starting at. Some of them will figure out that they aren't the reincarnation of Patton, and actually learn from the experience, to the benefit of the troops they will someday command.

Response by PO2 Dave Green made Sep 1 at 2015 10:39 PM

PO2 Dave Green — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 22:39:23 -0400

rank doesn't necessarily mean authority. i would love to see a commissioned officer fresh out of the academy try throwing orders at a GySgt.

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2015 1:22 AM

LTJG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 01:22:49 -0400

I've heard that too about midshipmen being between Warrant Officers and Commissioned Officers. I honestly have never looked it up, and I guarantee you that as a midshipman I never once thought or tried to claim any authority over any enlisted or warrants. Midshipmen and cadets have not earned a salute nor can they give lawful orders. As others have mentioned, they basically just needed to be stuck in there somewhere since academy cadets and mids are subject to UCMJ. Now, I have no clue where ROTC cadets and mids fall. Academy cadets and mids are active duty, and have active duty CACs. To my knowledge, ROTC cadets and mids are not AD, so I don't know if they are administratively treated differently than the academy types, or if they are even subject to UCMJ. I guarantee you though that any mid who believes that they hold authority over anyone will get the ass chewing of a lifetime from the nearest friendly neighborhood chief or gunny.

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2015 1:38 AM

LTJG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 01:38:18 -0400

Here we go. I just found this. If you look at Table 1-1, you will see that cadets and midshipmen are below all Warrant Officers and above all Officer Candidates and Warrant Officer Candidates. I do remember that midshipmen are taught to salute Warrant Officers (but not taught about salute exchanges between warrants and O-1s once they graduate). http://www.apd.army.mil/jw2/xmldemo/r600_20/head.asp

Response by PO2 Walter Savell made Sep 2 at 2015 8:35 AM

PO2 Walter Savell — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 08:35:17 -0400

My dad (LCDR USNR) told me that until I got the two bars of a LT, I should check everything with "my" chief. Since I only got to PO2, & I never ran into Middies except on liberty in DC, the problem never came up.

Response by 2LT Scott Armstrong made Sep 2 at 2015 12:31 PM

2LT Scott Armstrong — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 12:31:46 -0400

Do you mean to tell me Black Hats calling us "Cadidiots" wasn't a term of endearment reflecting their deep respect for our high position? #Airborne

Response by Sgt Jay Jones made Sep 2 at 2015 12:41 PM

Sgt Jay Jones — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 12:41:31 -0400

I believe your Commander is wrong. I would refer to the Cadet's pay scale and see how they are being paid. That will put everything into perspective. ....I believe it's an (E-5).

Response by SPC Thomas Moosey made Sep 2 at 2015 1:05 PM

SPC Thomas Moosey — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 13:05:46 -0400

I had a cadet as a part time drill Sgt. Nice kid, but he enjoyed smoking us a little to much. We had to call him Drill Cadet.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Sep 2 at 2015 1:08 PM

SGT Bryon Sergent — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 13:08:26 -0400

Well I have a question. Why is it just active duty? We also have cadets in the Guard. We all have the same rank structure. Fall under the same regs, and the UCMJ still affects us as Guardsmen. Normally the state adopts the UCMJ with some difference because we are M-day.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2015 1:42 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 13:42:13 -0400

In many cases, especially during the 2000s, a lot of cadets were already battle tested. Out of my 2006 graduating class of 14 at my schools program, all but one were prior service. Several had combat deployments by that time.

As an SMP cadet in the guard, I was a PL. A fairly knowledgeable one at that. Through both 11B basic and rigorous courses, I could hold my own as a PL, yet knew to let the platoon SGT lead.

I think many are forgetting right now that times are different and we are not in the same situation as we were from 2003-2013ish. Incoming Cadets are not the battle-hardened cadets of the last decade.

Despite this, yes, they are accorded the courtesies of an officer. You might not like it, but its a small army, and they might wind up being your Platoon leader, XO, or CO down the line. Or even worse, they might wind up being your S1, so its even more important you treat them with due respect ;)

Response by CW2 Michael Berthiaume made Sep 2 at 2015 7:41 PM

CW2 Michael Berthiaume — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 19:41:47 -0400

CW4 CW5 wouldn't give them the time of day.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Sep 2 at 2015 9:33 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 21:33:55 -0400

I believe a cadet's rank falls somewhere between Mordor in Middle Earth and elsewhere in the Dagobah system.

Response by SPC Ryan Santore made Sep 3 at 2015 9:58 AM

SPC Ryan Santore — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 09:58:28 -0400

I have worked on west point before. And our orders were "unless they are commissioned officers you treat them as civilians " .they are college kids until the president commissions them on graduation day . And that came from higher than my unit.

Response by SPC Chris Adkins made Sep 3 at 2015 11:03 AM

SPC Chris Adkins — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 11:03:54 -0400

That's not even remotely true. A PFC out ranks a cadet.

Response by SGT Paul Ernst made Sep 3 at 2015 12:05 PM

SGT Paul Ernst — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 12:05:36 -0400

Ha! Try it. Regardless of the situation (although I don't remember the reg/policy) a cadet does no maintain or hold any military rank. They are college students on the path to a commission. Until that bar is pinned on, get the f#ck out of here!

Response by MSG Douglas Tolliver made Sep 3 at 2015 12:19 PM

MSG Douglas Tolliver — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 12:19:54 -0400

No, they don't. They don't have a commission and in many cases they are lacking anything that resembles experience. If they had "rank" then the rank would be on a recognized rank table.

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2015 1:23 PM

LT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 13:23:32 -0400

On paper, yeah, Cadet/Midshipman is senior to a CWO5 and junior to a O1. But in reality... Different story. Any JO worth his salt doesn't try to pull rank on a Warrant. I'm lucky to work with a couple good CWO3's, and as an LT (Navy), I wouldn't think about pulling the rank thing. In fact, both have been great mentors and teachers, as with pretty much every CWO I've had the opportunity to work with.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2015 1:40 PM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 13:40:21 -0400

In the navy they "legally" rank between E-9 and CWO-2 (the Navy doesn't have CWO-1s).that being said, I'd love to see a midshipman give a Master Chief an order.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2015 2:09 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 14:09:13 -0400

A cadet does not out rank anyone on active or guard and reserve. That includes enlisted. He is not commissioned and has no said rank other than in their respective services Academy.

Response by CPT Patrick M. made Sep 3 at 2015 3:11 PM

CPT Patrick M. — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 15:11:26 -0400

using that logic, i'd like to see a 2lt try to politic his way past the cw5 as well. just because there is 'official' ranking doesn't mean there is command authority. if the two ever got into a statement battle, see who the xo and cdr back. then again, try a 2lt and a 1sg. there's the book answer and there's the right way of doing business answer.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2015 4:16 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 16:16:49 -0400

I always believed a cadet was the same as a pfc. i maybe wrong here but throughout my unit that is what is to be believed

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2015 4:23 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 16:23:39 -0400

I would like to see a cadet say anything to a E-6 or above

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2015 6:25 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 18:25:19 -0400

When I was a Cadet, I assumed I was equivalent to an E3 or E4, and that anyone E5 and above outranked me.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2015 6:27 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 18:27:40 -0400

My husband is stationed in the army at Fort hood. While the CO and XO were both on leave and their LT was no where to be found, their cadet was placed as acting CO.

Response by SGM Thomas Raymann made Sep 3 at 2015 6:29 PM

SGM Thomas Raymann — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 18:29:06 -0400

Regardless of what the regulation states, remember this....that cadet will someday be someones PL. They will remember that he was treated with respest and trained by the NCOs around them. I see a former cadet of mine regularly and talk to him about how his War College is going. That cadet will soon be a bird Colonel. He remembers. And I remember all of mine. He is not the only one I have seen in the senior ranks. Remember that when you joke and make fun of the "dumb cadet". WOs and NCOs were once "dumbass Privates" remember where you come from always.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2015 7:07 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 19:07:38 -0400

They are not. The cadets are in the officers rank this is how goes.Warrant Officers Candidate (WOC), Cadets from OCS, Cadets from ROTC, Cadets from West Point, WO1, CW2, CW3, CW4, CW5, 2LT, 1LT, CPT, MAJ, LTC, COL, BG, MG, LTG and G. AR 600-20 Table 1-1. Att CW2 Gonzalez!

Response by MAJ Michael Davis made Sep 3 at 2015 7:16 PM

MAJ Michael Davis — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 19:16:56 -0400

I was prior service when I went through Airborne school at Fort Benning. They let us know Cadets have no rank and put us at the end of the line. You need to earn it!

Response by SFC Wayne Theilen made Sep 3 at 2015 7:24 PM

SFC Wayne Theilen — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 19:24:52 -0400

They could be our future leadership. I treat them as commissioned officers. But I will not hesitate to pull one aside and straighten them out.

Response by SFC John Mikelson made Sep 3 at 2015 7:29 PM

SFC John Mikelson — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 19:29:22 -0400

Pay grade for an 09R/09S is E-5

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2015 9:55 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 21:55:56 -0400

If anything they rank as an E5 because that is what they get paid as.

Response by 1SG Marque Davis made Sep 3 at 2015 11:34 PM

1SG Marque Davis — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 23:34:03 -0400

Right under whale shit!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2015 11:50 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 23:50:14 -0400

I always found it weird that cadets "out rank" officer candidates on paper. Both are commissioning programs, but OC's are almost all prior enlisted. Just seems like it would be the other way.

Anyway, I'm in IPAP (the military PA school) and have worn the OCS rank everyday for the past 2.5 years on active duty at Ft Sam and Ft Hood. The issue of where my rank falls never comes up. I salute all officers. And return salutes when they are given to me from enlisted. If enlisted don't salute then it's no big deal, as there is no real (or commonly known) guidance on the subject. The one thing that does annoy me is the awkward half/stutter salute.

Response by CPT Phillip Schmitz made Sep 4 at 2015 12:28 AM

CPT Phillip Schmitz — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 00:28:42 -0400

Yes. That is true. All enlisted, regardless of rank, are required to initiate the salute to a cadet & a cadet must initiate the salute to all officers, even 2nd lieutenants. However, most cadets would never make an issue over it, they would probably initiate the salute out of respect. Remember, rank is given, respect is earned.

Response by PO1 Robert Dietrich made Sep 4 at 2015 7:09 AM

PO1 Robert Dietrich — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 07:09:39 -0400

Your commander was mistaken. Cadets rank higher than enlisted, but lower than warrant officers. But that's a technical issue, because the reality of service is that a cadet ranks lower than everybody until they receive their commission.

When I was in Pensacola back when the Navy's OCS was still there. I was a PO1 at the time and caught two candidates out on liberty trying to get an E-2 to salute them. They were jumping down his throat with fingers pointed, trying to look like a Marine DI. I quickly calibrated those two and took their names to a DI at the OCS quarterdeck. I'm sure they had a very long night.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2015 8:00 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 08:00:06 -0400

The reg shows cadets senior to enlisted. Junior to warrants.

Response by PO2 Sean Baker made Sep 4 at 2015 8:18 AM

PO2 Sean Baker — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 08:18:23 -0400

In the Navy a Midshipman is lower than an enlisted recruit...

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Sep 4 at 2015 8:59 AM

LTC Bink Romanick — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 08:59:20 -0400

My Dad was an old time Warrant, I can hear him laughing at the thought.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2015 9:34 AM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 09:34:34 -0400

In truth they rank below an E-1, little higher than a civilian until they graduate

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2015 9:46 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 09:46:27 -0400

A cadet doesn't even out rank a PV2. Cadet is not a rank!!! Anyone ever see a CDT in a combat zone? Me neither in 2 tours.

Response by MAJ Brent Nielsen made Sep 4 at 2015 12:39 PM

MAJ Brent Nielsen — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 12:39:57 -0400

It's a fantastic learning experience. I learned more from the Combat veteran E6 who mentored me for three weeks than any other training I received as a cadet. As a (temporary) platoon leader in Aco, 6th Bn 31st Infantry, I wqs fortunate enough to see the real army close up and personal. It also convinced me to branch Infantry.

Response by SSgt Joseph Thayer made Sep 4 at 2015 1:06 PM

SSgt Joseph Thayer — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 13:06:31 -0400

No a cadet doesn't even rate a salute.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2015 1:19 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 13:19:26 -0400

They get paid at E-5 rate in the Reserves/NG, but the ones at my unit just kinda wander around aimlessly looking absolutely ridiculous. Think of it as the Chief's Intern from "Greys Anatomy" (look it up if you don't get the reference): it's a made up position made to make them look like they're important when they're no better than a private who hasn't gone to basic yet.

Response by MSG Floyd Williams made Sep 4 at 2015 3:47 PM

MSG Floyd Williams — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 15:47:35 -0400

I would think a Cadet would be under a 2LT!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2015 4:06 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 16:06:53 -0400

This is true and not true. Technically, yes, as cadet/midshipmen appointments are by the President of the United States. CWO2/CW2-5 are commissioned by the President. WO-1 is appointed an officer by the service secretary. So while what you said is true in the sense of WO-1, not so with WO-2-5. This is done for a couple reasons. While a mid/cadet holds no command authority in the traditional sense, in certain training environments they are granted command authority, usually to test and evaluate their leadership potential. Because of this, they can "outrank" enlisted personnel as they've been placed in a position of authority, as to not create a conflict of interests. That said, cadets and midshipmen have both SNCO/CPOs that lead and guide them into becoming successful officers, and it'd be a very bad day if "rank" was pulled on them.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2015 4:39 PM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 16:39:29 -0400

Deleted.

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Sep 4 at 2015 4:48 PM

CPT Tom Monahan — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 16:48:39 -0400

Cadets are officers in training just like WOCs are Warrents in training. In the reserve and Guard they hold Plt LDR slots if a LT is not available. Think of an AV Plt, a bunch of WOs with an LT Plt LDR. The smart LT learns from their senior NCOs and WOs. Same for a Cadet. Senior NCOs, isn't it part of your job to help train the junior officers?

Response by CH (MAJ) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2015 6:37 PM

CH (MAJ) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 18:37:56 -0400

As a CTLT cadet in Korea, I shadowed a 2LT & listened closely to my PSG (SFC). As an SMP Cadet in ARNG, I was paid E-5 pay & given officer duties akin to "additional duties" so I could contribute. If they're humble, teachable team players, give em respect & gratitude.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2015 7:28 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 19:28:48 -0400

My Commander in tech school said we had to salute visiting cadets from the academy.

Sorry screw that. They are not officially "in" yet, they are college students.

Response by CPL James Luke made Sep 4 at 2015 8:23 PM

CPL James Luke — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 20:23:40 -0400

I was an agressor for IOBC. Skill they do not have. Read and understand the tactics in the manual. Then start thinking outside the box.

Response by MSgt Eric Roseberry made Sep 4 at 2015 9:21 PM

MSgt Eric Roseberry — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 21:21:45 -0400

Ya no. A cadet

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2015 9:38 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 21:38:30 -0400

I encountered cadets once, about 2 years into the army. Didn't understand them or what they were doing one bit! But now I'm coming up on 5 yrs in a few months and I had another opportunity to interact with cadets a few months ago. (The 2 of them actually talked with us lower enlisted folks) but after asking a few questions to them while waiting for a brief to start. I started to recognize the opportunities of assisting them with their future leadership style. So I made it a point to inform and help their understandings on things when ever they would ask out of curiosities of my experiences and what i do in my unit. As far as ranking goes for them... I never paid it any attention. I just treated them with respect. And they did the same back. Most likely no assistance to your question SSG, but figured I'd share a different perspective.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2015 10:34 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 22:34:51 -0400

I have always treated a cadet as a good, senior specialist. With respect, but not any authority. This seems to work well and make better officers than a traditional West Point graduate. They learn what is actually required to do the mission and who does it, giving them better understanding once they reach command.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2015 12:02 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 00:02:32 -0400

They are a potential commissioned officers, 3rd or 4th LT at best. One would be a supreme fool to mess with a w2 never mind a w5, To mess with a CSM would surely be a tragedy lol.
Let's not confuse form with function.

Response by SPC John Decker made Sep 5 at 2015 12:05 AM

SPC John Decker — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 00:05:56 -0400

In my opinion, a cadet (that is still learning), should rank between an enlisted recruit(that has not stated his/her training, and an elnisted person on their first duty station (having completed all required training).

Response by SFC Charles Pearce made Sep 5 at 2015 1:20 AM

SFC Charles Pearce — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 01:20:08 -0400

Negative ghost rider!! Did you know that CW2 and above are "commissioned officers"? Cadets receive the respect of an officer, but until WOBC is complete, their actual pay grade is what they were prior to being a cadet, they just wear WOC instead of rank.

Response by CPT Nicholas Roth made Sep 5 at 2015 8:33 AM

CPT Nicholas Roth — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 08:33:19 -0400

Yep, this is how it works. Remember to explain that to the cadets, if they don't already know. And make sure they know CSM has to stand at attention and salute them.

That'd be the fastest way to help them learn where they fall...

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2015 9:18 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 09:18:03 -0400

I was on Ft Knox for almost 4 years and every summer I saw all the cadets come in with their heads held high. I had one get pissed because I didn't salute him...my response is when you actually commission, I'll salute. Cadets to me are like the high schoolers that are doing the same exact thing.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2015 11:44 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 11:44:17 -0400

I've seen mostly RLOs and NCOs responding to this and the first warrant that responded hit the nail on the head... that CW4 or CW5 wouldn't give that cadet the time of day. Also, maybe it's just me but i have yet to meet a cadet with an ego problem and thinks they have any say in the world of warrant officers. Most commissioned officers below the rank of a senior O-3 don't really get involved in the world of warrant officers. Like I said maybe that's just me but the cadets I've dealt with keep to themselves and do everything they can to learn as much as possible from the warrants, senior NCOs and RLOs.

Response by MSgt Gerald Baxter made Sep 5 at 2015 12:06 PM

MSgt Gerald Baxter — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 12:06:15 -0400

Don't know about the Army, but in the Marine Corps a cadet ranks below Maggot S**t!!!
Until they are Commisioned, they are "Recruits" with NO authority of ANY kind. "Semper Fi"!!!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2015 2:03 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 14:03:46 -0400

Civilian fist class…..lol

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2015 3:26 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 15:26:15 -0400

In my KYANG unit we've had 2 ROTC cadets. One thought he had actual rank and got put in his place immediately. His rank of cadet doesn't place him anywhere on the list and that he doesn't out rank anyone until he graduates and gets his commission. Cadets are afforded the respect of officers and that is really it.

Response by CWO4 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2015 4:31 PM

CWO4 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 16:31:33 -0400

A cadet may outrank a W1, but a CWO2 and up is commissioned and they do not outrank them. In reality a cadet doesn't outrank anyone though.

Response by MCPO David Louden made Sep 5 at 2015 4:44 PM

MCPO David Louden — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 16:44:46 -0400

It does not. They may be given courtesy, but no more. Midshipman, Cadet Smith, etc. suffices. Your Commander was misunderstood or erred. Thank you. Louden

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2015 6:08 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 18:08:19 -0400

As an officer that received his direct commission while enlisted, I can state that I've seen all types of leaders in my 13 years of service. As other brothers have said, use your opportunities wisely. Teach and mentor while treating them with the respect you would love to be treated. This will help them shape their view of our outstanding NCOs.

Response by COL Pat Thomas made Sep 5 at 2015 6:09 PM

COL Pat Thomas — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 18:09:49 -0400

Wow, what a question. It almost doesn't deserve a response. I suppose you don't feel it's correct that a brand new 2nd Lieutenant outranks the Command Sergeant Major of the Army either. I'm sure the Sergeant Major isn't asking; he/she knows the rank structure and is Professional enough to not question it. It's been that way for 213 years. Get over it

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2015 8:02 PM

ENS Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 20:02:59 -0400

Having been a cadet, I've always been told that I'm technically an O-0. However, in all practicality, any cadet worth anything never actually felt that way. The cadets who actually acted like they knew more than an E3 were often dismissed by cadets, let alone anyone else actually in the field/fleet.

Hell, even as an Ensign I still feel like I'm lower ranking than an E-5 sometimes.

"Just give me the paperwork and tell me what you need, Chief. "

Response by PO2 Marlon Blount made Sep 5 at 2015 10:21 PM

PO2 Marlon Blount — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 22:21:22 -0400

My response is no cadet or midshipman has any rank yet.

Response by PO2 Marlon Blount made Sep 5 at 2015 10:28 PM

PO2 Marlon Blount — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 22:28:30 -0400

Thats complicated, I have friends who were on the ground but never had threat of IEDs or insurgents. I know others who were in firefights but I was out at sea working the flightdeck. I think we all have equal status we just had different jobs is all.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2015 10:56 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Sep 2015 22:56:01 -0400

I consider them to be the rank as described on their inactive reserve status. Until they come on active duty they're just a trainee and will be treated acoordingly to that E rank on their documents.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2015 12:09 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 00:09:46 -0400

AR 600-20 dated 6 Nov 2014 places a cadet below all Officers, Commissioned and Warrant, and above all enlisted. So a cadet is below a Warrant Officer in regards of order of their precedence.

Response by SGT Christian Oster made Sep 6 at 2015 2:01 AM

SGT Christian Oster — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 02:01:00 -0400

When I was an E-4 in the Army National Guard, cadets were treated like privates. When teaching a class, I often told cadets to lock it up. More so after I got my combat patch. It wasn't so much out of disrespect but it was more for them to realize that an E-4 with experience was a valuable asset.

Response by 1SG Charles Hunter made Sep 6 at 2015 9:54 AM

1SG Charles Hunter — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 09:54:38 -0400

A lot of good responses, but many off the original question. The term "cadet" refers to a student at one of the service academies. It does not include ROTC students or OCS candidates. A cadet ranks just below a WO1.

Response by 1SG Dave Arpin made Sep 6 at 2015 10:36 AM

1SG Dave Arpin — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 10:36:36 -0400

I have been retired since 2004, spent 19 years in USAR with the 79th MP Company in Rochester MN (now Wabasha, MN). Worked my way up from team leader to 1SG. As stated before, the technical answer can be found in AR 600-20. What I found was that a Cadet was a valuable resource. They usually were willing to do anything to help and had the book knowledge to assist when a question would come up. They could also be a direct link to the CO if something was needed. Being in the reserves we didn't always have a PL, so the Cadet was placed in that position. We as NCO's knew we could develop that soldier into a good officer if we worked with them and mentored them. I believe we did a good job as many of them continued on in the reserves and AD after getting their commission and were promoted up. Not all were good but the majority of them were willing to learn. Like all soldiers some are not cut out for the military but we gave them the chance. My two cents worth.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2015 11:07 AM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 11:07:25 -0400

This is incorrect. If you pull up the WO program order from the DOD it states that WO's outrank cadets and officers in OTS that have not yet received a commission.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2015 12:11 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 12:11:48 -0400

This is an age old conundrum. When I was commissioned, the first thing I realized, was that I now had the authority to get sage advice from great NCOs and Warrant Officers. Commissioned officers who abuse their rank have a lot to learn, but don't assume all take that authority for granted.

Response by LTC Mark Maitag made Sep 6 at 2015 12:50 PM

LTC Mark Maitag — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 12:50:34 -0400

I once witnessed a 2LT dressing down a BN CSM. That LT found himself being dressed down by the BN CDR. Moral of the story: you may outrank the CSM, CW5...etc, but they are usually the right-hand of someone that way-outranks you. Only the foolish cadet, lieutenant or captain doesn't fully appreciate their true place in the pecking order until they pull some stunt like the 2LT I described. The more senior you get, the more collegial your relationships get with the senior enlisted and warrant ranks.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2015 1:06 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 13:06:05 -0400

Where do cadets rank?? Easy, below privates.

Response by 1SG Antwan Nicholson made Sep 6 at 2015 1:52 PM

1SG Antwan Nicholson — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 13:52:01 -0400

I've been retired for four years now but, if memory serves me correct and the regulation has not changed, "Cadets" are superior in rank than Warrant Officers and Enlisted.

Please read AR 600-20 for further clarification.

Response by SFC James Liedtka made Sep 6 at 2015 2:34 PM

SFC James Liedtka — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 14:34:37 -0400

Cadets rank about 3 levels below a private. I had one tell me he had a detail for me to complete the day I got home from deployment. I let him live, but he will never speak to again.

Response by SGT Jonathan Hodrick made Sep 6 at 2015 2:38 PM

SGT Jonathan Hodrick — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 14:38:58 -0400

Nowhere!!! Until they get that commission, it don't mean D**k.

Response by 1SG Bill Wayne made Sep 6 at 2015 3:38 PM

1SG Bill Wayne — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 15:38:50 -0400

They are junior junior Officers for there 2 weeks of training. Grab em by the sleeve and help em along. Other than that they are is some sort of training / teaching cycle. Check your Reg while in class they hold no rank other than student.

Response by SPC Thomas Mcauley made Sep 6 at 2015 4:29 PM

SPC Thomas Mcauley — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 16:29:49 -0400

I was always told to show them respect at the level of E5. But for me it depended on where they came from and how they treated everyone else, HS kid that joined ROTC and showed his a@@ usually got ignored and then destroyed by a real officer if they continue to bother maintenance in the motor pool.

Response by SFC Brian Gillum made Sep 6 at 2015 6:17 PM

SFC Brian Gillum — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 18:17:05 -0400

There is a reason we call them cadidiots. Anyone above E-2 is usually much more "military smart" than even a senior cadet. But, due to the US military clinging to the outdated modes of rank and privilege that have changed little from the medieval times in which they were born, wanna be officers have to outrank someone. Thus they are generally considered commensurate with an E-6.

Response by CPT William Gordon made Sep 6 at 2015 7:21 PM

CPT William Gordon — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 19:21:32 -0400

He is the same as an E-6

Response by SSG Everett Wilson made Sep 6 at 2015 7:56 PM

SSG Everett Wilson — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 19:56:59 -0400

A cadet receives the same pay as an E-6. I was on Operation Armed Falcon and we had an OCS Cadet with us. Since my Home Unit is the Regional Training Center we notified the Commander and we were told Cadets only to get paid as E6's in order to pay for their uniforms and have no real authority, and is given respect accordingly, as they will be Officers upon finishing Phase IV. Confirmed by Region V ROTC Command. I had a Student Commander wanting pool balls for a pool table in the Tac Shed. As the Supply Sgt I told the Cadet that he would soon be in the field and I didn't have time. As I sat at my desk, he leaned forward and tagged on his collar and said you see this "eagle" it says you jump when I speak. I laughed at him and pulled on my collar tagging at my Staff Sgt Strips and told him, see this, mine are real. I got up to leave the office and he told me I couldn't leave. Watch me, I'm leaving and locking the doors and you'll be here when I get back in the morning. Went over to see the Cdr about some paperwork and he followed me. Told the Col what he said and said he did because he was the Student Commander. The CSM was sitting there and said you know the TOE makes me #5 on the list, the Regimental Commander is #1 and the Regimental Quartermaster is #2. The Student Commander left out as a regular student.

Response by SPC Nicholas Motto made Sep 6 at 2015 8:29 PM

SPC Nicholas Motto — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 20:29:25 -0400

While I was still in, we had quite a few come through, most were ok, but as a lot of you know, cadets can get a swole head, and act as if they are king shit. That also being said, I live a few blocks away now from a college that has an rotc program, and if they piss you off while on active duty, try living next to them. Looking like a giant soup sandwich, acting like everyone owes them something. Guess they act a lot different when not on post and in uniform. I understand that senior leaders need to help shape them into leaders, but giving them to much "authority " at one time can be bad for them as well. I always saluted, sir and ma'am, just don't think most were ready to become leaders...

Response by SFC Wade W. made Sep 6 at 2015 9:09 PM

SFC Wade W. — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 21:09:24 -0400

When I was in the service cadets were just that, cadets. They did not fit into the rank structure at all. I think that was the right way. They have not completed training so therefore are still trainees. When in training we don't recognize a ranger, sniper, airborne as such until they complete that training fully.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2015 9:19 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 21:19:26 -0400

Since that rank does not exist, it was to give the cadet a mindset of leadership that one day if they succeed, will be their senior. But I pity the butter bar that tries.

Response by SGT Stephen George made Sep 6 at 2015 10:21 PM

SGT Stephen George — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 22:21:53 -0400

I've seen the First Sergeant tell a "butter bar" to keep his nose out of his First Sergeant Business ...the wise cadet might want to do the same when it comes to the CW5 ...just saying.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2015 10:56 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 22:56:33 -0400

Some get e5 pay BUT they are not in any rating chain. Their authority comes from limited power given them from a CO. Like acting PL. In the big picture they should not draw attention to themselves. Definitely not correct a CW5.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2015 11:09 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 23:09:58 -0400

Is a question of regulation in one side and reality in the other. The fact is that the Cadet do rank higher than any enlisted or WO and just below the 2LT, however the reality is that they do not have the experience or training required to really make any decision, in fact LTs don't ether. It is up to the commander to make it clear who is in charge and how business is conducted and is up to the Senior NCOs to foster an environment of mutual respect and mentor young officers and officer candidates shaping that way our future leaders.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2015 11:23 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 23:23:01 -0400

When I was in AFROTC we had no official status until we contracted. Then once contracted we were enlisted E3's in the IRR until we commissioned or if disenrolled you went to basic onto active duty as an E3. I had the old green id card that said Airman E-3 USAFR.

Response by Sgt Den OBrien made Sep 7 at 2015 1:21 AM

Sgt Den OBrien — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 01:21:30 -0400

I may be uninformed about this but have they even received their Officer's Commission at this point?

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2015 1:41 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 01:41:13 -0400

Hmmm I always thought cadets weren't technically affiliated with the armed forces yet since they don't have an ID card or an LES. Sometimes we would get west pointers in Drum and were told to treat them like officers but behind closed doors they politely asked is not to extend them the same courtesies since they had not yet earned the rank

Response by CW4 Juan Morales made Sep 7 at 2015 2:19 AM

CW4 Juan Morales — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 02:19:49 -0400

A cadet rates higher than officer candidates, but not a Warrant Officer. Warrant officers rate higher than cadets and officer candidates per AR 600-20. Remember, a W-1 holds a commission by appointment,CW2's and above are commissioned officers. Cadets have not received that commission.

Response by Cpl Rock DeAugustine made Sep 7 at 2015 4:56 AM

Cpl Rock DeAugustine — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 04:56:13 -0400

Ridiculous....maybe above a LCpl...maybe. Until they are commissioned they aren't shit. Besides: ranks should be irrelevant based on social structure and instead rely on ability...how many NCOs have been far superior to officers in every way...limited only by family connection or money to attend university?

Response by 1SG Bill Wayne made Sep 7 at 2015 8:35 AM

1SG Bill Wayne — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 08:35:30 -0400

I will do some digging on the matter. For a Fact each Army School or Military School I have attended we basically lost our rank while in training. Don't recall any Black hats calling students by Rank nor any ranger instructors while in training. So pending that answer. Is the cadent considered in training while on CTLT. But that is a good question. Being retired I don't have much excess to Reg's any longer. Can anyone chime in

Response by Cpl Adrienne Horlacher made Sep 7 at 2015 9:35 AM

Cpl Adrienne Horlacher — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 09:35:47 -0400

I say a "cadet" isn't even a soldier yet. They haven't proved shit; thus, they don't rate a damn thing.

-former Marine-

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2015 10:50 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 10:50:54 -0400

Its part of the development phase for that future leader. All the cadets I have interacted or had shadow my PLT in the past have known from the start they will be treated with respect as long as they understand that most soldiers in the PLatoon have much to offer for their development. if they fail to reder respect and have a chip on their shoulder, they get chopped from the PLT and sent back to shadow the XO.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2015 10:55 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 10:55:52 -0400

She's an idiot.

Response by PO2 Nick Burke made Sep 7 at 2015 10:57 AM

PO2 Nick Burke — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 10:57:24 -0400

A cadet has no actual rank. They had to be reminded of this on their Midshipman cruise.
Your Commander needs to check the regs.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2015 12:11 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 12:11:26 -0400

Well as a CW2 and former PL myself I can tell you that the Company CO would assigne the cadets to me so that I can teach and mentor them. I was a platoon sergeant before becoming a warrant. So I did with them the same thing I did with my young LTs. I showed them the ropes and how to be a leader. It realy didn't matter if they outranked me or not show mutual respect and be that mentor and they will become the leaders you want them to be. Some still call me sir as commissioned officers because I earned their respect and they will call once in awhile for advise.

Response by Capt Jeff Krauser made Sep 7 at 2015 1:16 PM

Capt Jeff Krauser — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 13:16:30 -0400

I was AF Cadet. A long time ago. We did not out rank anyone. Our pay was one half of the base O1 pay and at the academy we paid for our needs out of that stipend. AF did all that and gave us $15 a month on which to splurge. But in command structure we only outranked cadets lower in rank after the first year.

Response by SFC James Young made Sep 7 at 2015 1:19 PM

SFC James Young — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 13:19:36 -0400

Who cares where they fall in the rank structure. We, as leaders shouldn't have this continous "measuring" contest. If you have a cadet in your unit, as a leader, officer or NCO, you should be anxious to teach and mentor the young officers.

Response by PO1 Charles Babcock made Sep 7 at 2015 1:51 PM

PO1 Charles Babcock — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 13:51:39 -0400

about the same level as Recruit. Officer style.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2015 2:45 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 14:45:05 -0400

Their CAC card says E-5

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2015 3:49 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 15:49:59 -0400

Cw5 is equivalent to a army colonel so this is funny to me

Response by PO1 Aaron Baltosser made Sep 7 at 2015 4:22 PM

PO1 Aaron Baltosser — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 16:22:51 -0400

A Cadet ranks below a boot E-1 as far as I'm concerned based on knowledge, capabilities, and leadership ability.

Response by SFC Bryan Clark made Sep 7 at 2015 4:28 PM

SFC Bryan Clark — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 16:28:02 -0400

at the bottom....!!!

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2015 4:32 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 16:32:28 -0400

Yes it needs to change if true. They are not an officer yet for one. Also I think all officers need to go through basic training first and not just ROTC and that is it.

Response by SGT Justin Veverka made Sep 7 at 2015 8:11 PM

SGT Justin Veverka — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 20:11:57 -0400

cw5 is the Jedi master of their job, I don't see anyone saying shit unless they have a star on that shoulder.

Response by PO1 David Powell made Sep 7 at 2015 9:12 PM

PO1 David Powell — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 21:12:07 -0400

Yes. They are in the chain of command. Always been that way.

Response by SPC Christopher Najor made Sep 7 at 2015 9:17 PM

SPC Christopher Najor — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 21:17:20 -0400

It's been this way since I was a cadet back in 1982

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2015 9:56 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 21:56:11 -0400

I was walking around at the Washington Navy Yard when I encountered three US Naval Academy Cadets, while one questioned where "their salute" was the other two were quick to say good morning Staff Sergeant and inform the other cadet that they did not rate a salute as they did not out rank an active duty Staff Non-Commissioned Officer (which is fact as they have not received a commission yet). I was laughing by this time and said "Good morning cadets" going on about my business.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2015 10:14 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 22:14:48 -0400

I was a cadet at Airborne school. We were considered lower then privates. Until commissioned, they have no legal authority. Having said that, they can be put in leadership positions as delegated by the commander(see 1SG Wesson's post$

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2015 10:31 PM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 22:31:28 -0400

So I know from experience a cadet does not hold any actual rank a Commander would like him to be respected as an in between but in all honesty you can call them Mr so so or sir like a chief but with that being said they will be a leader one day let's help them not be a complete basket case

Response by SGT Daniel Mcwilliams made Sep 7 at 2015 11:03 PM

SGT Daniel Mcwilliams — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 23:03:43 -0400

To me as a former NCO I feel that cadets are a want to be LT and they need a NCO or a Warrant to lead them and show them the way. So saying that no a cadet should never out rank a CWO-5

Response by 1st Lt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2015 11:03 PM

1st Lt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 23:03:50 -0400

As a cadet, I was told that my and my peers rank was formally E-3 or E-4 on paperwork, depending on circumstance, but that we should all maintain the humility that we lack any military experience. So, from what I was told, no, Cadets do not outrank CW5, but any worth a hoot officer candidate would behave such that it's not a problem. I'm Air Force, and it's possible the formal ranking differs per branch.

Response by SGT(P) Crystal Marie France made Sep 7 at 2015 11:27 PM

SGT(P) Crystal Marie France — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 23:27:58 -0400

Cadets get kind of automatic respect because they are soon to be officers but they aren't a real rank in the Army.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2015 12:56 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 00:56:50 -0400

Problem I have experienced with PIPS is that most are enlisted E4/5. Either way they get E-5 pay. But, the point is some carry a serious chip on their shoulder and I mean serious chip. To the pint they abuse their privileges.
I had a PIP who was in the guard that was assigned to my platoon. One day he decided that he was going to push his authority and PIP rank on this (at the time) 56yoa old Sgt. Well it got really nasty. I damn near throat punched the young buck full of piss and vinegar.
As the yelling between the two of us in front of the lower enlisted got out of hand the XO came over and told us both to knock it off. He then asked what the hell was going on and who started it. Naturally before I could say anything but Young PIP start running his mouth damn near was screaming at the Major. The Major told the young PIP To be at ease. Then look at me and asked me to explain what happened. As I tried to explain, the PIP screamed at me to stand at the position of parade rest when I addressed the XO. I got do pissed and my XO knew I was about to go Postal. So he told me to go to the pavilion where the reclean weapons And I heard him tell the young PIP to stand fast and he would be back shortly. The XO approached me and asked me to explain. I asked the XO how long have we known each other. (I've known him since he was an enlisted soldier who went from Green to Gold.). He said a really long time. I proceed to explain that this "Ol' Warhouse" from the Vietnam Era was old school. Long story short. He counseled the young PIP and explains that when any NCO is doing anything or informs him to do something he needs to follow their lead or orders. He further explained that trying to pick a fight with any of the old NCO's was a death wise because they didn't get where they are at because they are stupid. That PIP stay a long way from me after that. I heard later the Oldman and the XO send a really bad rating back to his college and informed them unless he changed his attitude. That he was not officer material for the U.S. Army.
So, in conclusion, I strongly believe that PIPS should and need to be under strict supervison and not have any authority over any active duty service member no matter what beach of service. They need to be observers and take notes, watch, listen, learn, and study to be a a Leader first. You can't start from the Top and work backwards (down) you have to learn how to walk, talk, dress, and act before you can lead.
What was the life span of a 2LT in Battle. About 17 seconds. The ones who made 1LT and Capt. They filled and listened to their seasoned Old School NCO's

Whenever I was assigned a new platoon leader, I'd tell him to just follow my lead and do as I do or say, and you'll be going home dtsnding up instead of a box.
Never had any issues except for that one PIP and a Capt who was tabbed out and wouldn't listen because he was a Capt. We sent him home two weeks in country in a flag draped box.

But, that's just my experience and opinion.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2015 6:27 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 06:27:49 -0400

They rank somewhere below PVT. Of course, you should be generally respectful towards them, unless they try to pull some imaginary rank or something like that, because chances are they'll be an LT some day.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2015 7:08 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 07:08:39 -0400

A CW5 is commissioned and a cadet is not, end of story

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Sep 8 at 2015 7:59 AM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 07:59:18 -0400

They are neither officer or enlisted. They have no command or leadership authority

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2015 11:17 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 11:17:10 -0400

I was a Cadet and Enlisted soldier and proud of both, but Cadets are there to learn, period! I agree with 1SG Wesson on regulation versus reality and to never miss an opportunity to shape all leaders.

Response by Sgt Richard Czajkowski made Sep 8 at 2015 11:45 AM

Sgt Richard Czajkowski — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 11:45:30 -0400

A cadet is nothing more than a college kid wearing a uniform. They haven't been commissioned yet so they hold no sway in the military community. An E-1 outranks a cadet!

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Sep 8 at 2015 3:36 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 15:36:33 -0400

I would let them boss my soldiers around, so I relegate them to less than an E-1 or minus rank.

Response by PO1 Javid Benson made Sep 8 at 2015 4:33 PM

PO1 Javid Benson — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 16:33:06 -0400

I had a cadet try and tell me to shine my boots I told him to put some time in and go eat his milk and cookies from his mother and tossed a quarter at him and said here's a quarter go tell somebody who gives a damn what you got to say.

Response by SPC Andrew Griffin made Sep 8 at 2015 6:54 PM

SPC Andrew Griffin — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 18:54:26 -0400

LOL! It doesn't fall anywhere!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2015 8:22 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 20:22:22 -0400

I know as a simultaneous member troop personnel (SMTP) they are paid as an E-5 but given the duty and or responsibility of a SPC/E-4.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2015 8:23 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 20:23:33 -0400

This is for USAR members anyway

Response by CW3 Luther Deese made Sep 8 at 2015 8:42 PM

CW3 Luther Deese — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 20:42:08 -0400

Military academy cadets get W-1 pay as plebes and go up a paygrade each year they progress -- or, so I've been told. I would NOT pull rank on a CW5 were I you ;~)

Response by CW4 Russ Hamilton (Ret) made Sep 8 at 2015 10:09 PM

CW4 Russ Hamilton (Ret) — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 22:09:18 -0400

This has to be one of the more comical threads I have read on RP. In addition to outranking all enlisted (E1 – E9), cadets also outrank WOC’s (Warrant Officer Candidates). I believe WOC’s outrank all enlisted as well – they are saluted by enlisted. What gets really funny is at my Reserve unit, when we have an E-5 go the ROTC route (cadet) and an E-6 go warrant but has to wait 8 months for a class date and wears WOC rank. So now the cadet outranks the WOC. 10 months later, the WOC is now a WO1 and the cadet is still a cadet. Then the cadet graduates and returns as a 2LT. The circle of life…

Back to the point of all this: One day that cadet will be a 2LT and the WOC a WO1. I personally knew cadets/2LT’s who are now O-6’s up for O-7. While I’ve never really seen much hazing of WOC’s, I have seen hazing of cadets (and 2LT’s) by the NCO Corps. Remember, one day that cadet will outrank you – they might even become your company or battalion commander, maybe brigade. And they just might remember you. I recommend you do your best to mentor and guide them.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2015 8:39 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 08:39:40 -0400

I understand cadets are (future) officers. But that is just it. They are not fully commissioned yet and when they go to different units or certain training. It is an intern ship for them. Meaning there half to a certain goal they want to achieve. As far as them out ranking anyone (bullshit ) and they have to earn there place amungst those ranks first, just like everyone else. Everyone is taking political correctness way out to left field.

Response by SPC Bruce Hudson made Sep 9 at 2015 8:43 AM

SPC Bruce Hudson — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 08:43:33 -0400

We all know SPC run the army

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2015 12:04 PM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 12:04:58 -0400

No it's only merit is that a Cadet is recognized by service members where they are rendered proper courtesies as Sir/Ma'am. They should be saluted and rendered proper courtesies, but usually are treated like nobodies. I know that when I made the conversion from SFC to O1 I made sure they gave me my respect!! When I had to sponsor Cadets, I made sure that my NCO's rendered proper respect, but everyone isnt like me!! But a Cadet doesn't outrank a CW5

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2015 12:48 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 12:48:53 -0400

A cadet has NO rank whatsoever. They have not commissioned, they are not enlisted. They are trainees. Special college kids. Ultimately you treat them with dignity and respect as you would/should anyone but there is no "sir/ma'am" and no hand salute. Your commander is mistaken.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2015 1:24 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 13:24:52 -0400

To 1SG Wesson's point, if you examine AR 600-20, you will find (in the order of precedence table, that cadets actually fall in between the rank of CSM/SGM and WO1. This makes sense, because they are neither officer or enlisted: they fall in between. Titles of address are typically Mr/Miss/Ms./or Mrs, and no handle salute is rendered to them, except by other cadets of lower rank. All of this lines up with my recollection from boot camp, where we had West Point cadets trying out their skills as platoon leaders. We were instructed by the drills not to salute them.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2015 4:36 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 16:36:46 -0400

The last time I checked they were still civilians until they were commissioned. A cadet does not hold a a legitimate rank with in the mainstream service. But within a cadet command they have that rank structure to learn and understand the structure of the military with in there environment.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2015 5:31 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 17:31:39 -0400

It's no wonder our Army is in the state it's in right now. Just by reading the responses below, I'm amazed we have survived this long. Thank you to the professional NCOs that have actually taken the time to do what you do - serve as "The Backbone of the Army" and point out the regulation that clearly defines and answers the question. As to the others...let's just say there's a reason some stay CPLs, SPCs, LTs, or CPTs and never advance much further. And to sum up what I've seen so far, there are a slew of unprofessional Soldiers on both sides of the fence. Both enlisted and commissioned. I've seen CSMs I wouldn't trust with a paper clip and LTCs or COLs I wouldn't trust with the container it came in. But to say that all of one or the other are corrupt is a fallacy in the worst way.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2015 5:45 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 17:45:40 -0400

It doesn't

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2015 7:41 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 19:41:14 -0400

Rank and authority are not necessarily the same. As a company grade officer I would not think of pulling "rank" on a Sergeant Major!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2015 8:49 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 20:49:22 -0400

Cadets are like PV0. They have good intentions most of the time but, They know nothing. I have seen cadets given the rank of E-5 to deploy. The rank of cadet is like recruit. It doesn't fit into the rank structure properly. It would be hard for me to believe that a cadet out ranks a chief.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2015 9:23 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 21:23:45 -0400

BAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH I can't have been commissioned that long. I'd would pay to watch anyone besides a commander try to tell a CW5 what to do - my experience with cw5's is they generally can chew up and shit out damn near anything, given enough coffee to push it along.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2015 9:29 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 21:29:25 -0400

The current regulation states a Warrant Officer is above a Cadet, a Candidate for OCS or Warrant Officer is below the Cadet, then Enlisted. This is simply a Chain of Command structure. The reality as 1SG Wesson pointed out is they do not have the skills to take command of a situation without the assistance of experienced NCOs to guide and train them. Show respect to them and hopefully they will one day be a great leader.

Response by CW4 Chad Balwanz made Sep 9 at 2015 10:49 PM

CW4 Chad Balwanz — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 22:49:49 -0400

A cadet is a student in training to become an officer. Cadet is not a military rank but rather a position or title. Among other class mates for training purposes the cafet may hold a position of responsibility and weild authority over other cadets for the purpose have leadership skills assessed. Cadets have no authority of rank over serving military members. You will not find a cadet serving as a platoon leader or squad leader in the 101st Abn Div or any other military unit. Cadet or candidate are training position not a rank .

Response by Sgt Dennis Gray made Sep 9 at 2015 10:50 PM

Sgt Dennis Gray — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 22:50:41 -0400

Personally I just enjoyed watching the cadets try to march. After I got out I saw them again when I went to college. They would stroll around campus in a loose formation and I would laugh at them.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Sep 9 at 2015 11:53 PM

COL Charles Williams — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 23:53:19 -0400

Good question SSG Private RallyPoint Member ! I think that depends. I believe if you are referring to a Cadet assigned to a CTLT position, than yes. In most cases, it is mirky. This is what 600-20 says... and it is only reference I could find... it is about a succession of command, hence who outranks who. In short... WOs outrank Cadets ((3) Senior regularly assigned Army Soldier refers (in order of priority) to officers, WOs, cadets, NCOs, specialists, or privates).

2–8. Death, disability, retirement, reassignment, or absence of the commander
a. Commander of Army element.
(1) If a commander of an Army element, other than a commander of a headquarters and headquarters element, dies, becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier will
assume command.
(2) If the commander of a headquarters and headquarters element dies, becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier of the particular headquarters and headquarters element who performs duties within the element will assume command. For example, if a division headquarters and headquarters
company commander is temporarily absent, the executive officer as the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier who performs duties within the headquarters company would assume command and not the division commander.
(3) Senior regularly assigned Army Soldier refers (in order of priority) to officers, WOs, cadets, NCOs, specialists, or privates present for duty unless they are ineligible under paragraphs 2–15 or 2–16. They assume command until relieved by proper authority except as provided in 2–8c. Assumption of command under these conditions is announced
per paragraph 2–5. However, the announcement will indicate assumption as acting commander unless designated as permanent by the proper authority. It is not necessary to rescind the announcement designating an acting commander to assume duties of the commander "during the temporary absence of the regularly assigned commander" if the announcement gives the time element involved. A rescinding announcement is required if the temporary assumption of command is for an indefinite period.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2015 6:25 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 06:25:42 -0400

Based on pay grade they are an E-5. They have no authority in the active duty, but are merely students of the profession like an intern. It's appropriate to treat them like officers since they need to get used to thinking about others and not themselves. Good News need to guide them in this crucial time to make sure they learn what is needed to succeed. Don't be afraid to humble a cadet with an ego.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2015 7:22 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 07:22:26 -0400

Cadets aren't soldiers. Why this simple fact can't seem to sink in is beyond me. They don't have a rank, aren't subject to UCMJ and can't draw benefits if they are hurt in training. They are civilians.

Response by PO3 Jason Brown made Sep 10 at 2015 11:17 AM

PO3 Jason Brown — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 11:17:27 -0400

Yeah

Response by CPT Griff Tatum made Sep 10 at 2015 11:39 AM

CPT Griff Tatum — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 11:39:24 -0400

I had some outstanding NCOs that guided me and helped me learn when I was a cadet. Sure, technically cadets are this that and the other whether you agree or disagree with the manual, but I can say that now as an officer that I learned and respected NCOs more because they helped me instead of making me make copies and mop the floor. Them helping me says a lot about how I can expect to work with them in a more serious situation down the road. Also, it's all about how to hold yourself as a cadet: a bag of smashed ass is a bag of smashed ass whether youre an E7 or cadet. We have standards for a reason. If the cadet can hold himself as a future officer, then there shouldn't be anyone to bring him down, however, if he acts a damn fool, well, he probably wont have a very good experience.

Response by SPC David Hannaman made Sep 10 at 2015 12:10 PM

SPC David Hannaman — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 12:10:14 -0400

In terms of respect or rank?

It reminds me of the "butterbar debate"... yes, a 2LT outranks a 1SG, but he would be foolish to pull rank on the 1SG.

First of all the 1SG might let him, and if it's a point of contention it would probably result in a magnificent and embarrassing failure.

Second of all any CO worth his salt would pull the 2LT to the side and whisper softly in his ear "Shut the FUCK up, Top has forgotten more than you know right now... you want him on your side to keep you from looking like a fool."

I also think it bears mentioning that most of them realize the above. I crossed paths with Cadets skiing in Colorado, I was a PV0 at the time and they called me "Sir". I've also never met a 2LT that was so much of an ass that he wouldn't say "I see your point SPC Hannaman, lets do it that way" if I made my point.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2015 1:26 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 13:26:01 -0400

Don't read too much into it, he said in between he didn't say a cadet out ranked a Warrant Officer (slow down hot rod you're going too fast)

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made Sep 10 at 2015 3:07 PM

SGT Craig Northacker — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 15:07:53 -0400

I believe it is somewhere below the rank of a toaster in the mess hall. IF they are in the Reserves they are an E-1 notwithstanding any dubious misinterpretations elsewhere - and last I looked that is nowhere between WO and Officer. Your commander needs to go back to school. This is not hard stuff. The ref cited below is in contradiction to strict ordering by assigned rank. Being made an acting officer is another story.

Response by PO2 Stevelisa Coster made Sep 10 at 2015 3:50 PM

PO2 Stevelisa Coster — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 15:50:26 -0400

Does it move? Then, salute it. If not; paint it...

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2015 5:12 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 17:12:55 -0400

I once got written up for not saluting a mid shippmen

Response by PO2 Michael Henry made Sep 10 at 2015 10:17 PM

PO2 Michael Henry — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 22:17:18 -0400

When I was in, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES, were we supposed to take orders or salute a cadet UNTIL said cadet was commissioned.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 11 at 2015 11:25 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 23:25:08 -0400

I think they fall in between a PFC and a SPC. In all seriousness, I would think that they should be close to the 2LT level, just with no real authority.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2015 12:46 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Sep 2015 12:46:13 -0400

They are students being placed in leadership positions to learn the basics of being a leader. I will mentor and lead them to the best of my abilities - however, regulation and reality are different. When I had to track down the Cadets who were supposed to be supervising the Specialists doing PMCS of trucks and found them all smoking and joking behind the the trailers. Staff Sergeant Old School came out and chewed them all a new one. When I was done I gave them back to the PL and suggested he find a new task for them.

Response by SSG Curtis Crawford made Nov 1 at 2015 3:10 PM

SSG Curtis Crawford — Sun, 01 Nov 2015 15:10:47 -0500

BULL SHIT.. A cadet don't know shit... A cadet can kiss my NCO ass.

Response by SSG Ken Gilder made Nov 5 at 2015 8:36 PM

SSG Ken Gilder — Thu, 05 Nov 2015 20:36:33 -0500

I would venture a SWAG, that since cadets are paid as E-5's, he/she would outrank a specialist, but be subordinate to a buck sergeant.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2015 9:53 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 09:53:28 -0500

i treat DOTS as I would treat an E4/E5

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Nov 8 at 2015 1:53 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 13:53:58 -0500

What is the consensus of enlisted saluting dots?

Response by Bill Edgette made Dec 4 at 2015 11:43 PM

Bill Edgette — Fri, 04 Dec 2015 23:43:44 -0500

How about 'hopeful chattel'?

Response by PO1 Aaron Baltosser made Dec 17 at 2015 11:34 AM

PO1 Aaron Baltosser — Thu, 17 Dec 2015 11:34:47 -0500

LOL. A cadet ranks with Active Duty just under a raw recruit on their P-1 day.

Response by MSG Reid Zohfeld made Dec 17 at 2015 11:58 AM

MSG Reid Zohfeld — Thu, 17 Dec 2015 11:58:28 -0500

The funniest thing I ever saw was a 2LT lock up a BN CSM to chew him out in the middle of a court yard. Myself and a fellow soldier both E-4 at the time looked at each and said the LT is in trouble. The CSM took the chewing and then we never saw that LT again LOL
A cadet who is worth mentoring is going to be a good soldier but one who thinks he is in charge will and up like the lt above

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 17 at 2015 2:15 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Dec 2015 14:15:27 -0500

Latest version of AR 600-20 puts Cadets (all USMA Cadets and Senior Advanced Cadets from ROTC) in grade above OCS Candidates and all Enlisted. Previous versions had Warrant Officers under cadets, but that has changed. In the late 90s, the statement above was true, that they did outrank Warrant Officers (then capped at CW4).

Response by PO2 Michael Henry made Dec 24 at 2015 1:15 PM

PO2 Michael Henry — Thu, 24 Dec 2015 13:15:12 -0500

Your CO is wrong, a cadet is not in anyway part of the military until officially sworn in after graduation. I was an E-4 and was told I had to salute him because he is a Naval Academy cadet. So I flipped him the bird and walked off.

Response by SSG Carlos AcostaCastro made Jan 1 at 2016 1:32 PM

SSG Carlos AcostaCastro — Fri, 01 Jan 2016 13:32:12 -0500

Bottom of the totem pole I guess that equals to Privates on the enlisted ranks

Response by CWO3 Shawn Kopaczewski made Jan 7 at 2016 6:52 PM

CWO3 Shawn Kopaczewski — Thu, 07 Jan 2016 18:52:19 -0500

A Cadet is a Cadet, when I was a Warrant Officer (Wo-1) I had a war rent and was not a commissioned officer, I could not promote or reenlist ant one. Once you are promoted to CWO2 Chief Warrant Officer you are a commissioned officer and can promote and reenlist. A Midshipman or Cadet are not Commissioned officers. How ever as when the are on active duty they get paid as an E-5 and should be treated with respect as all members E-1 up should be.

Response by TSgt Stephen Potter made Jan 8 at 2016 12:06 PM

TSgt Stephen Potter — Fri, 08 Jan 2016 12:06:54 -0500

A cadet is a school boy or girl. If that cadet standing watch on their tour of duty for school. They're only given the respect of an officer during the watch. They do not hold a Commission.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2016 9:57 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 Jan 2016 21:57:20 -0500

Every midshipman to board our ships in my day was obviously told to keep their mouths shut, speak only when spoken to, and treat everyone with respect. A cadet or a midshipman is nothing more than a college kid in a spiffy uniform. They have no rank until they are commissioned upon successful graduation.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2016 8:22 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 20:22:01 -0500

Cadets are considered E5's. This is according to my contract through ROTC in the SMP program. On our AKO page the rank also reflects the statement above. During drill weekends, we are mentored by officers and NCO and fill more of a student role, learning about the job of a PL and develop skills as future officer.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2016 9:22 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Sep 2016 21:22:44 -0400

When I was at airborne school as a Cadet the black hats would say, "E-4 and below and Cadets," when assigning us to details. I thought that was both reasonable and fitting.

Response by LTJG Richard Bruce made Dec 10 at 2016 9:31 PM

LTJG Richard Bruce — Sat, 10 Dec 2016 21:31:15 -0500

14 USC 41 states, "In the Coast Guard there shall be an admiral, vice admirals; rear admirals; rear admirals (lower half); captains; commanders; lieutenant commanders; lieutenants; lieutenants (junior grade); ensigns; chief warrant officers; cadets; warrant officers; and enlisted members. Enlisted members shall be distributed in ratings established by the Secretary"

Cadets and Midshipmen are not commissioned officers, but do hold a Presidential office. They are considered officers within the Manual for Courts Martial. Cadets and Midshipmen are tried as officers.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2017 6:54 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 18:54:28 -0400

So I'm a Cadet and my CAC says E-6 SSG. Most of my buddies either say E-5 SG, ROTC Student, Or ROTC CDT. I have no idea why I'm ranked higher than my buddies but the majority of theirs CACs say one of the latter three I listed.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2017 11:58 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Aug 2017 23:58:40 -0400

I mean seriously. This is what you are worried about??? Whom outranks whom??? Ok, so I guess if you are in a Rorke's Drift scenario with a Cadet this might come up. But otherwise??? Who gives a rats crap. Most cadets will listen to an NCO though in rare, extreme cases they might have to over ride the NCO.
Of course in the case of my daughter with her airborne wings and Alcoholics Anonymous combat patch the NCO might want to take the cadet's thoughts into consideration.
Really, there are more important things to worry about.

Response by SGT Eric Hawkins made Sep 30 at 2017 4:08 PM

SGT Eric Hawkins — Sat, 30 Sep 2017 16:08:27 -0400

Well said, 1SG.

Response by MSG Mel Trout made Sep 30 at 2017 4:20 PM

MSG Mel Trout — Sat, 30 Sep 2017 16:20:12 -0400

Just an opinion from the '80s, but at AT we had some cadets attached to my unit. We were told to call them Sir and salute. It didn't happen. I respect them as a LT in training, but I addressed them by their rank. CDT XXXXX and only saluted stars, bars, oak leaves, and eagles. I wouldn't salute a dot. ;) Wonder why I had to make E-5 three times. LOL

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2017 4:28 PM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 30 Sep 2017 16:28:39 -0400

As I understood it, cadets are above enlisted but not WO's

I wouldn't go up to an NCO and say that to their face though... I'd prefer to live to see my commissioning thank you very much.

As long as the cadet knows he ranks somewhere between a turd and roadkill in the real world, I think NCO's should take him under their wings and teach him how a good LT works.

Response by SPC Lorrita Morgan made Sep 30 at 2017 4:36 PM

SPC Lorrita Morgan — Sat, 30 Sep 2017 16:36:11 -0400

I was told that their effective rank is "3rd Lieutenant" for rendering courtesies.
I saw a few out in the wild. (I did Basic Feb-April 1976 Senior Cadets visited female training facilities to prepare for the first class of female Cadets Jully 1976.)

At my pay grade, the only other question I needed answered is did someone put the candidate/cadet in my chain of command? (Not usually going to happen, but stranger things occur every day)

Response by 1LT Gregory Blevens made Oct 1 at 2017 4:31 AM

1LT Gregory Blevens — Sun, 01 Oct 2017 04:31:17 -0400

My understanding of the cadet rank is that it's equal in authority to E-5

Response by PO3 David Davis made Oct 1 at 2017 8:59 AM

PO3 David Davis — Sun, 01 Oct 2017 08:59:26 -0400

I did not look up regulation. A cadet should not our rank anyone.

Response by PO3 David Davis made Oct 1 at 2017 9:00 AM

PO3 David Davis — Sun, 01 Oct 2017 09:00:49 -0400

Just call the cadet. Unless it's another cadet addressing them. They are in the learning stag so the will be officers.

Response by MSG Johnathan Mathes made Oct 1 at 2017 3:29 PM

MSG Johnathan Mathes — Sun, 01 Oct 2017 15:29:09 -0400

Think the first thing you have to remember is that these guys are cadets... they will eventually leave ... treat them with courtesy...YOU are their 1st real interaction with active duty soldiers... they will learn what you teach them ... good bad or in between... if they won't learn or pay attention...that's their problem later

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 1 at 2017 4:44 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Oct 2017 16:44:20 -0400

Regulations aside, I'd put them between Recruit and Private.

Response by SFC Bob Lilley made May 5 at 2018 12:44 PM

SFC Bob Lilley — Sat, 05 May 2018 12:44:46 -0400

Your commander needs to go back to the OBC and learn about precedence of rank.

Response by SFC William Hearn made Nov 14 at 2018 10:40 PM

SFC William Hearn — Wed, 14 Nov 2018 22:40:13 -0500

This question is high class bullshit. The cadet rank is an administrative structure built specifically for military academies and ROTC etc. It is not a formal rank with authority and responsibility. You don't have to salute a cadet because there would be no reason to get your silver dollar for a commissioned officer's first salute. Look at the pay grade chart for military pay and see if you there is a cadet rank. Look on a dress uniform of a commission officer to see his cadet medals are there. I'm sure you will not find cadet medals in DA PAM 670-1. Look in UCMJ and see if there is an article for disobeying an order from a cadet. Officer is Article 90 and NCO/Warrant is Article 91. Read regulations. You will see that the word cadet is rarely found in regulations. Look in AR 600-100 Army Leadership which outlines responsibilities from the Secretary of the Army down to the lowest commanders. You will not find a cadet in any position of authority. Cadets are mentioned only as a subordinate body or unit under the Superintendent of Academies. If a cadet is acting in a role as a platoon leader, it is by the commander's authority that he performs his duties. (An officer receives his power directly from the president.) An NCO derives his authority from the commander also. The difference between an NCO and a cadet is, the NCO's authority is outlined in regulation. Let's revisit 600-20 paragraph 2-3 where it doesn't mention cadets for performance counselings. In 2-7 where it doesn't mention proper delegation of authority to cadets. Look in 600-20 and see if the cadet falls in the chain of command or the NCO support channel. In chapter 4, AR 600-20 show me where a cadet has the authority to maintain discipline and conduct. I can do this all fucking day. You are entitled to your opinions. An NCO that believes there is a difference between regulations and real life is a bad NCO. An NCO that teaches this bullshit about cadets having authority and power doesn't know shit about regulations. Like saying, in 600-20 Table 1-1 has more weight than the regulation itself. But if you read the regulation, it does not outline any formal or informal authority, duties, or responsibilities of a cadet. I love when people make up their own rules. Some of you must think army regulations can be discussed like political topics on facebook and come up with your own conclusions. Finally, regulations governing cadets are under USMA Regulations and USCC (US Corp of Cadets) Regulations.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2019 1:11 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Apr 2019 13:11:57 -0400

Any time I’ve ever had a cadet shadow my platoon or the troop I treat him just as what he will be, an officer. Never in the many times I’ve worked with the have they been unprofessional or came in with a ego. On most all occasions they have honestly either been nervous and unsure of how to interact or super hungry for anything you have to tell them. I enjoyed when we had them simply because it felt good sharing experiences and mentoring them to be better PL’s down the road.

Response by Sgt William Margeson made Dec 25 at 2019 4:02 PM

Sgt William Margeson — Wed, 25 Dec 2019 16:02:40 -0500

Cadet, is just cadet. No Rank, no authority. They are addressed as Cadt so and co, or plain Cadet. They address Soldiers by Rank.

Response by Cpl Charles Trump made Mar 3 at 2020 10:15 AM

Cpl Charles Trump — Tue, 03 Mar 2020 10:15:56 -0500

Being that they are a cadet, ie recruit! They need to get the commission before expecting anything from a actual enlisted member.

Response by CW5 Mark Smith made Sep 21 at 2020 12:26 AM

CW5 Mark Smith — Mon, 21 Sep 2020 00:26:21 -0400

I always tried to be kind and patient with them. Hard to imagine being in their position. Had one ask me if he could address me as Chief.

Response by LTC Ray Buenteo made Mar 17 at 2022 11:44 AM

LTC Ray Buenteo — Thu, 17 Mar 2022 11:44:13 -0400

Don’t confuse rank with authority.