Where is the line in free speech regarding vulgar language and derogatory remarks?

2018-07-30T11:03:50-04:00

I get it, once we sign the contract, we waive some rights to a degree. Freedom of speech is chief among these. A service member cannot say disparaging remarks about our Command-in-Chief, nor can they call senior ranking officers and NCO’s names, and so much more. But where is the line in free speech? I know service members curse and have bad language, sadly I am guilty of it too at times dropping the SH or F bomb when upset at work. I know we have to be cognizant of those around us, we have to keep in mind EO and SHARP and many other things in our speech patterns. We should stay professional.

However, what about when in civilians? All too often I have heard music depicting sexual graphic nature or use of the F word, and even worse the N word. And no, its not just rap I am talking about. There are plenty of rock songs that are just as bad. The issue is that to me the N word is vulgar, doesn’t matter if it ends in ‘a’ or the hard ‘er’. It is just vulgar. And yet it is used as a greeting in place of old word such as dawg, dude, ‘G’, etc. It grates me when I hear it and I feel as though I may be encroaching on people’s rights. Am I too old fashioned or am I trying to uphold an imaginary standard? If I am right though and the use of that word is not tolerable in uniform or civilian attire, is this EO and Article 134 or what would be the best reference approach for counseling and punishment?

I am reminded of an incident a couple of years ago I was at the PX in Grafenwohr with my daughter and clearly overheard two men in civilians in front of me at the checkout line saying the F word and other ‘bad’ language. My daughter asked me why they had potty mouths. I asked them to stop or at least lower their voices so that my daughter does not have to hear their language. They see my rank (SGT) and they said that they were officers. I asked for their ID to prove their rank (hoping they were not privates or something lying to get out of talking to an NCO), one said they didn’t have it. I asked him if he was in line to purchase something, of course he said yes. I then informed him that the PX was for ID card holders and don’t be surprised if he won’t be able to purchase anything. The other gentleman produced his ID and sure enough, he was a 1LT. I then tactfully told him that he does indeed need to watch his language, especially around children as it is unbecoming of an officer and could bring discredit upon the service as detailed in Article 134. He told me to stay in my lane, officer outranks an NCO. I just smiled and reminded him that UCMJ applies to all, and I was exercising my general military authority. I voluntarily gave him my name and unit designation and told him if he has an issue with me, then please get in touch with my chain of command. He of course did not reciprocate the gesture nor did he give me that information when I requested. I never did hear about the incident after that.

Eit: grammar

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2018 11:13 AM

2018-07-30T11:13:43-04:00

Free speech doesn't mean people can say or do what they want without consequences - military or not. There are limits to speech in the US: libel, slander, hate speech, incendiary speech, etc. We have censors on what is shown on TV and in media. So there are limits to free speech.

This is the EO program: "The U.S. Army will provide EO and fair treatment for military personnel and family members without regard to race, color, religion, gender, or national origin, and provide an environment free of unlawful discrimination and offensive behavior. This policy: Applies both on and off post, during duty and non-duty hours."

What civilians do no one in the Army can impact. If you hear music on the radio with cursing and you don't like it turn it off. If someone plays it while they pass by you can ask them to turn it off but they don't have to.

The "n" word shouldn't be said by anyone. I know the reasons given by those who do - I don't care. If I hear someone say it I'll say something. They can choose to ignore me or continue on if I'm out and about off post. If I hear one of my soldiers use it - no matter who they are - I will take them aside and say something.

Honestly if some random person in any store told me to watch what I say I would probably just ignore them. I swear around my daughter (mostly in the car) and she rarely repeats it. If she does I tell her she can't say it. I can say it, she can't. Once she gets older, I honestly don't care if she does. Swearing isn't really a bad thing at all. It is a sign of high intelligence and vocabulary, relieves stress and a multitude of other things. But to each his or her own on how they raise their kids. I probably also will not ever randomly give my ID to someone unless they are law enforcement or identify themselves as someone who needs to see it.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2018 11:23 AM

2018-07-30T11:23:02-04:00

SSG Michael Hathaway I agree with you. Those officers were out of line, and your daughter was right, they did have potty mouths.

Response by Maj John Bell made Jul 30 at 2018 11:23 AM

2018-07-30T11:23:24-04:00

You were right. The Officers were wrong. Yes we may slip. We should be corrected, no matter the rank correcting us. The only appropriate response when we are corrected is an apology, both to you and your daughter, followed by an affirmation to her that vulgar language is inappropriate and that Dad has moral courage. Then we clean up our act.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Jul 30 at 2018 1:11 PM

2018-07-30T13:11:35-04:00

You seriously did a good thing in checking those individuals. Rank be damned. Using certain words in and out of uniform don’t make it right when you’re a SM 24/7. Saying the N word is wrong, and don’t let what you hear compromise your beliefs. You know it’s wrong, you know it’s unbecoming, and as long as you’re in the right Charlie Mike. ‘No one is more professional than I’. Walk it like you talk it.
You’re going to hear bad language more as your career goes. You’ll even be the one to use it. It also comes down to knowing your audience. I found it easier to tune out a person who’s cursing me out for a mistake compared to one who chewed my ass with a level and call voice. I’m going to echo what that 1LT said with a caveat....stay in YOUR lane. Your ‘LANE’ is taking care of the troops. That includes that 1LT. Continue to be the solution. You’ll be able to fix the problems as they pop up. Taking care of Soldiers is NCO business and business has never been better.

Response by SGT Joseph Gunderson made Jul 30 at 2018 1:51 PM

2018-07-30T13:51:37-04:00

If we are just talking about in general as protected by the first amendment, free speech ends at directly calling for or inciting violence. Other than that, say whatever you want. In fact, say whatever pops into that little head because the more crap people decide to spew out the better you understand them. I would rather every idiotic commie and racist and sexist go ahead and vomit out their opinions just so I know who they are.

Response by AN Eric Lewis made Jul 30 at 2018 2:04 PM

2018-07-30T14:04:15-04:00

I agree with your actions. The officers were clearly in the wrong. Profanity can be offensive to most people, especially in public when children are present. It is called profanity because most find it profane. My experience in post-military life is that it paints a very negative picture of the military for civilians. It makes servicemen and women appear rude, unintelligent, uncouth, undisciplined, and crude just to name a few words I've heard civilians use to describe military personnel after being around some who use vulgar language with frequency. I've often heard, "I'd never let my child go in the service if that's what they're recruiting or what they turn them into." Or, "What a horrible, vulgar, undisciplined representative of our nation's military." Civilians can be harsh when you're not present and they see YOU as the face of the military, regardless of your branch.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Jul 30 at 2018 3:19 PM

2018-07-30T15:19:13-04:00

You were right to correc them...any officer worth their salt will take corrective criticism especially from an NCO. To say their were officers and that they outrank you was out of line. There is a line for use of foul language. IMHO I beleive that out of the mouth comes what is in the heart. If you are using all these expletives I look at it as you are uneducated and have a short vocabulary because you have no other way to get your point across. Don't get me wrong, years ago I could sling them like paint but I learned that it just turned people off and I cleaned up my act. There are times and place if you are going to use it but in the line at the PX is not one of them as that is a family place.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jul 30 at 2018 4:59 PM

2018-07-30T16:59:24-04:00

This particular issue isn't about "rights". You signed an employment contract with the government in which you agreed to abide by the UCMJ as a term of employment. Profane or indecent language is a violation of that contract.

Article 134 - Indecent Language

If a service member communicates indecent language either orally or in writing to another person, then he is violating the provisions of Article 134. Indecent language is covered under paragraph 89 (Article 134) of the Manual for Court Martial.

The text of statute under Article 134 says that all neglects and disorders which are adverse to the discipline and good order in the armed forces, all conducts which can bring discredit to the armed forces and offenses and crimes not capital, can be punished by convening a general, summary or special court martial as the offense demands.

Elements of the offense
•The accused has communicated with another individual in writing or orally.
•The language the accused used was indecent.
•In the circumstances, the behavior of the accused was adverse to the discipline and good order in the armed forces or the nature of the act brought discredit to the armed forces.

(If the case is appropriate, add this element after the first point.)

The language was communicated to a child under the age of 16 years.

Explanation for the elements

'Indecent' language is defined as language which can offend a person's decency, modesty or propriety or is morally shocking because of its filthy, vulgar or disgusting nature or tendency to create lustful thoughts. Language is said to be 'indecent' if it can reasonably incite libidinous thoughts and corrupt morals. Such language should overstep community standards.

Maximum punishment for the offense

Indecent or insulting language
•Communication with a child under 16 years of age.

The accused can be punished with a dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of allowances and pay and 2 years of confinement.
•In other cases

The accused can be punished with a bad conduct discharge, forfeiture of allowances and pay and 6 months of confinement.

Example of how a service member may be convicted for this offense

It is not necessary that a service member communicates indecent language in words. In U.S Vs Green (CAAF 2010), the accused had made the victim come to him on the pretext of removing a bug from the victim's shirt, but instead he grabbed hold of victim's shirt and pulled it down, making an utterance (mmmm-mmmm-mmmm) in the process. The accused argued that the evidence (the use of mmmm-mmmm-mmmm) was factually and legally insufficient to support a charge of indecent language. The accused nevertheless, convicted for the offense of using indecent language along with several others offenses and punished. The lower court (U.S Navy-Marine Corps Court of Criminal Appeals) upheld the sentence and said that it was not necessary that indecent language constitute actual words.

If the armed forces strictly apply the rule book against indecent language, not a day would go by without violations of the provision or service members prosecuted for using explicit words.

Sometimes the service members are only being boisterous and no one seems to mind. Indeed, many 'indecent' words are common expressions and they are not uttered to incite any libidinous thoughts. In most cases, the language is either treated as provoking speech (no provision for bad conduct discharge) or a simple disorder, unless the accused used the words to incite libidinous thoughts in the other person.

It is very hard to punish a person for language that may not be deemed sexual, obscene, racial or even when it might cause a disturbance or fight. Usually the 1SG, SGM, JAG and commander will sit down and go over the practicalities of the case, before the service member is charged.

In U.S Vs Moore (CMA 1994) the court ruled that obscenity was not covered in the right to speech, under the 1 st amendment. What is 'obscene' is also 'indecent' and such language cannot be afforded protection under the constitution. The court noted that the personal relationship between the utterer and the victim could be used to determine whether the language used was indecent.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jul 30 at 2018 11:03 PM

2018-07-30T23:03:07-04:00

Civilians get away with all most anything- tho their rights end at your and your family's ears, Explaining that is rough. Any SM whether in or out of uniform is subject to UCMJ all day long. As you proved with the 1LT, when you remind them of the UCMJ, 95% will cut and run, NCO's are expected and required to maintain discipline and enforce the regs. You did well.!

Response by SPC Henry Francis made Jul 31 at 2018 1:07 AM

2018-07-31T01:07:25-04:00

First Amendment right of freedom of speech must not be restricted to prevent “repulsive” or other undesirable speech. Doing so would seriously endanger the ability to voice criticism and opposition of the democratic majority. All they would need to prevent it is declare it “repulsive” or “hate” speech.
As for language of service members, it is necessarily subordinated to the UCMJ to ensure the command and discipline that military missions require. That is why there are higher standards of conduct for service members as well. You were correct, the officer and his friend (maybe a civilian) should not have used that language in mixed company or in public. Calling them on it was the right thing to do.
Civilians and service members alike must expect that using vulgar and inappropriate language could have unpleasant consequences... even though they have a right to speak those words.

Response by SSgt Nevin Kirkland made Jul 31 at 2018 3:56 PM

2018-07-31T15:56:56-04:00

Poor language will never be eradicated from military life, but there is a time and place. In the Marine Corps the N word was rarely heard - there are no black or white Marines, we’re all shades of green. But there was plentiful use of the F bomb, just not around civilians.

Your exemplar story is unfortunate and I suspect those young Lieutenants won’t make it very far. What they should have done, which is what I would have done regardless of the rank of who called me out, was to apologize to your daughter and tell her that her father was correct and that they’ll do better next time.

Response by CAPT Michael Toleno made Sep 14 at 2018 7:07 PM

2018-09-14T19:07:31-04:00

Good job. This type of behavior is all too prevalent among officers and enlisted in all services. It's an issue of professionalism, respect for one another (and oneself), and general good order and discipline. As a unit CO, I set the standard that profanity is not appropriate or acceptable in my command. Even if not CO, it's a standard of professionalism that I would try to set and encourage. Sadly, you and I are standing against a huge wave of negative cultural influence, from which even very high-ranking officers are not exempt. Keep up the good fight.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Sep 18 at 2018 12:29 AM

2018-09-18T00:29:38-04:00

The line is located right about....here.

Article 134 - Indecent Language
If a service member communicates indecent language either orally or in writing to another person, then he is violating the provisions of Article 134. Indecent language is covered under paragraph 89 (Article 134) of the Manual for Court Martial.

The text of statute under Article 134 says that all neglects and disorders which are adverse to the discipline and good order in the armed forces, all conducts which can bring discredit to the armed forces and offenses and crimes not capital, can be punished by convening a general, summary or special court martial as the offense demands.

Elements of the offense
•The accused has communicated with another individual in writing or orally.
•The language the accused used was indecent.
•In the circumstances, the behavior of the accused was adverse to the discipline and good order in the armed forces or the nature of the act brought discredit to the armed forces.

(If the case is appropriate, add this element after the first point.)

The language was communicated to a child under the age of 16 years.

Explanation for the elements

'Indecent' language is defined as language which can offend a person's decency, modesty or propriety or is morally shocking because of its filthy, vulgar or disgusting nature or tendency to create lustful thoughts. Language is said to be 'indecent' if it can reasonably incite libidinous thoughts and corrupt morals. Such language should overstep community standards.

Maximum punishment for the offense

Indecent or insulting language
•Communication with a child under 16 years of age.

The accused can be punished with a dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of allowances and pay and 2 years of confinement.
•In other cases

The accused can be punished with a bad conduct discharge, forfeiture of allowances and pay and 6 months of confinement.

Example of how a service member may be convicted for this offense

It is not necessary that a service member communicates indecent language in words. In U.S Vs Green (CAAF 2010), the accused had made the victim come to him on the pretext of removing a bug from the victim's shirt, but instead he grabbed hold of victim's shirt and pulled it down, making an utterance (mmmm-mmmm-mmmm) in the process. The accused argued that the evidence (the use of mmmm-mmmm-mmmm) was factually and legally insufficient to support a charge of indecent language. The accused nevertheless, convicted for the offense of using indecent language along with several others offenses and punished. The lower court (U.S Navy-Marine Corps Court of Criminal Appeals) upheld the sentence and said that it was not necessary that indecent language constitute actual words.

If the armed forces strictly apply the rule book against indecent language, not a day would go by without violations of the provision or service members prosecuted for using explicit words.

Sometimes the service members are only being boisterous and no one seems to mind. Indeed, many 'indecent' words are common expressions and they are not uttered to incite any libidinous thoughts. In most cases, the language is either treated as provoking speech (no provision for bad conduct discharge) or a simple disorder, unless the accused used the words to incite libidinous thoughts in the other person.

It is very hard to punish a person for language that may not be deemed sexual, obscene, racial or even when it might cause a disturbance or fight. Usually the 1SG, SGM, JAG and commander will sit down and go over the practicalities of the case, before the service member is charged.

In U.S Vs Moore (CMA 1994) the court ruled that obscenity was not covered in the right to speech, under the 1 st amendment. What is 'obscene' is also 'indecent' and such language cannot be afforded protection under the constitution. The court noted that the personal relationship between the utterer and the victim could be used to determine whether the language used was indecent.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2020 9:22 PM

2020-05-15T21:22:29-04:00

Depends on your audience I suppose. Trick is we don't always know who our audience is. So just be professional and keep the cursing to a bare minimum. I absolutely hate when people call each other the N word as well. Drives me nuts.