Which is better: West Point or ROTC?

1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 11 Jan 2014 16:04:12 -0500

Can you tell If a Officer is from West Point? Can a Officer see the difference or does the NCO have a better eye on it. I my self have meet both.

Response by SFC James Baber made Dec 12 at 2013 10:51 PM

SFC James Baber — Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:51:20 -0500

ROTC, I think it better prepares for the reality sometimes, the academies I feel are more focused on studies than real life scenario training and education. I could be wrong, but that is my two cents.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2013 10:56 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:56:23 -0500

ROTC was great training, and it's more cost effective. I used to think the Acdemy must have better training but after meeting Academy grads the main thing they have going for them is the Network they build.

That Network is very useful, no mater where they go in the military, one of their classmates is there.

Response by MAJ Joseph Parker made Dec 13 at 2013 12:44 PM

MAJ Joseph Parker — Fri, 13 Dec 2013 12:44:50 -0500

MSG(P) Matthew Q.: The avenue depends on the student, their qualifications, and their goals. Be careful not to judge the Academies as better than ROTC, etc. They are just different. Each program produces a different kind of leader

First, the academy: Besides the qualifications; the student must want to spend a lifetime of service to the nation and want more than anything else in the world to go to the academy. Otherwise, they just won't be able to make it through. Desire is the essential element. Well rounded and national level leadership, academic, and physical skills are next. However, without the burning desire none of the skills will matter.

Second: ROTC: Basically, the student will need the same skills and desire for a life of service to the nation. ROTC is less rigorous on a daily basis so the desire for service the student needs to succeed is far less intense. The training is excellent and though different than the academy. It provides a junior officer every bit as good if not better than many academy officers. It is also a good avenue for students who don't meet academy academic standards or who can't get an academy appointment to still become an officer. CAUTION: Some ROTC programs are every bit as rigorous as the academy, and the "desire" factor is a greater concern if the student is to succeed. For example, the Citadel.

Finally, I would recommend that the student sit down with a few field grade officers (no slight intended to the company grades out there) and discuss what he or she would like to do in the military and why. Field grades know all the ropes and have the experience to point a young person to the best avenue. They can also write the best recommendations and have contacts at school admissions.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2014 4:17 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 11 Jan 2014 16:17:47 -0500

I can usually tell the difference between the two. It's hard to say which is better but I have to say it's the person that makes more the difference than where they were educated from.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2014 4:34 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 11 Jan 2014 16:34:50 -0500

Each has there plusses and minuses. For my own children, as much as I dearly love and support the mission and education offered by the service academies, I would tend to carefully consider whether they offer broad enough curriculum to meet not only the military needs but also the potentially broader educational needs of my children. The choice should ultimately be a carefully considered commitment by the child. But, they need to fully understand the traditions, capabilities and limitations of both systems.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2014 4:44 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 11 Jan 2014 16:44:21 -0500

Good Officer's can come from anywhere, and so can bad ones. I can generally tell pretty well what someone's commissioning source is and whether they were ROTC/USMA/OCS, (I was ROTC myself). I've had issues with leaders from each, and I've seen some of the greatest leaders I've ever met from each; as SSG Benavidez said it comes down to the individual. I don't think any commissioning source is better than another, they're just different, and each tend to come with their own set of issues.

Response by SSG Gerhard S. made Feb 5 at 2014 2:53 PM

SSG Gerhard S. — Wed, 05 Feb 2014 14:53:03 -0500

I cannot attest as to what difference there may be, but one can typically tell if an Officer is a West Point graduate because he or she will likely let you know fairly soon.  :-)  No offense intended, simply an observation.<br><br>

Response by LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® made Feb 5 at 2014 3:11 PM

LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® — Wed, 05 Feb 2014 15:11:47 -0500

Wow, loaded question! I am a West Pointer so of course I have a conflict of interest. I don't think it is a matter of which is better, I think it is a matter of producing officers that have different backgrounds that creates diversity in our army. I have seen both and bad officers from both sides. There are stereotypes that West Pointers see things in black and white, socially we are behind because we couldn't party, but that we are capable, type A people that want to and can get things done. <div><br></div><div>I really believe it is more personality than anything though. When I took over my platoon, after several months when they found out I was a West Pointer they were shocked. I didn't seem like one. So there are stereotypes, some flaunt it more than others, and some don't.<div><br></div><div>I am extremely proud of my degree and it has helped me in the civilian and political sector being a West Pointer. It is ranked as one of the top schools in the country. Aside from the fact of producing officers, it also has significant second and third order effects. many civilians wouldn't know about the military without the service academies.</div><div><br></div><div>The Army navy game is popular, there are plenty of articles and series on West point and the other academies, and I know many that joined the military because of it. I decided to go to West Point in the 5th grade because I loved the leaders it produced and the history behind. The history department motto is "much of the history we teach, is made by those we taught." Just thinking of it always gives me good bumps.</div></div>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2014 7:21 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 Feb 2014 19:21:16 -0500

I think West Point by far...

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2014 9:12 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Feb 2014 21:12:40 -0500

Well West Point I relate more to actual combat strategy although I am sure that the Admirals of Midway and such were great too.

Response by MAJ Joseph Parker made Feb 6 at 2014 10:00 PM

MAJ Joseph Parker — Thu, 06 Feb 2014 22:00:15 -0500

<p>In my experience the easiest officers to differentiate are the direct commission. They are woefully undertrained in their officer duties.</p><p><br></p><p>Next easiest are the OCS officers, who have incredible working knowledge of the Army, but a more relaxed deportment as junior officers. </p><p><br></p><p>Not always that easy to tell West Pointers from ROTC, except the Pointers will almost always be a type A personality and slightly more formal. As an officer, it's easy to differentiate one's peers out as ROTC or Grad. We just talk to each other. Surprisingly, it's a little more difficult to differentiate them when they are subordinates! Contrary to lore, the WPPS isn't there. You give orders to subordinate officers and expect them to perform. Doesn't matter where their commission is from. And superiors: Same difference! They say jump, I obey. Don't ask the source of their commission before deciding whether or not Ill listen!</p><p><br></p><p>So which source of officers is better? Please see my response to 2LT Youngblood. </p>

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made Feb 7 at 2014 8:17 PM

MAJ Jim Woods — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 20:17:10 -0500

I don't know how it is now, but back in the day (60's & 70's) OCS was the best for Company Grade Officers and West Point for Field Grade. ROTC guys were out of the loop not by their own design but ROTC in those days was woefully behind on current planing, tactics, and boots on the ground knowledge.

That being said, I have served with outstanding officers from all sources. BTW I was in OCS Class 1-67 but only had a years experience before OCS (they lowered the standards). Others were far more experienced than me. I am sure some of my decisions reflected that limited experience. Fortunately, as a 2nd Lt. I had GREAT NCO's to keep me in line. Oh Yeah, and one crusty CWO Garrett. The Chief had the most colorful ways of telling me I was a screw-up. He was a W-4 (as high as it went back then) and I looked upon him as GOD and the NCO's as the Disciples. Oh the fun we had......LOL.

Response by SPC Gary Basom made Feb 7 at 2014 8:56 PM

SPC Gary Basom — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 20:56:40 -0500

I would think ROTC is a school or college based military officer training course with it's curriculum in the civilian world. For example, you major in medical and in addition the military ROTC course. West Point deals strictly with military officer training for 4 years.

Now based on my opinion I believe West Point is better, it teaches a broadbased course that can be used in the military, artillery, infantry, etc. officer course.There are quite a few apparent differences and your choice is based on what you believe you find is better.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Feb 7 at 2014 9:29 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 21:29:28 -0500

Meh.... The source really only matters initially (and really that is more an issue of perception than anything else). Once you get to 1LT, it's pretty much an even playing field at that point. Cream will rise regardless of where you went to school and how you got your bars. I've served with Pointers who couldn't lead soldiers out of a wet paper bag and ROTC grads who are future General Officers. I think the different commissioning sources helps to prevent an inbred mindset that you can develop when everyone comes from the same school.

Response by SFC A.M. Drake made Feb 7 at 2014 9:34 PM

SFC A.M. Drake — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 21:34:47 -0500

Lets see...a little off topic but West Point is definitely more expensive. (However applicants/Cadets do not pay for tuition)

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2014 8:05 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Mar 2014 08:05:11 -0400

MSG(P) Quick,

Full disclosure: I am a product of 2.5 years at USMA (academic separation) with my final two years in a ROTC program where I received my commission (I did a total of 5.5 years of college to get a BA degree). One fun part of this has always been, when I meet an officer trying to figure out their commissioning source; I usually get it!

While I don't recommend doing 5.5 years of school to get an undergrad degree and commission, I do feel that I am a much better officer because of my split experiences (had I had time, and the patience, I would have liked to enlist after completing my degree rather than being commissioned, then go through OCS, for the full experience).

USMA gave me a heavy academic and daily immersion into the military (Army) lifestyle and mentality. Every day was about being in the military, from how I lived, to the classroom instructors and the military minded themes across everything. I left USMA a much better student than when I arrived (flunking out does that often), and I knew much more about the military than my ROTC counterparts I joined later.

ROTC was a better 'life' experience, having a mixture of friends, some in the military community, but most not. Having a couple of jobs outside school forced me to learn how to be a 'grown-up' more quickly, and living "on the economy" taught me how to fend for myself without being spoon-fed every life experience.

Each has strengths and weaknesses, and some folks may want/not want the specific experience offered by each, but I do believe iin general, they provide the right pre-commissioning experience. With over 20 years hindsight, I have seen good and bad officers from both sources, and while USMA is a singular source, ROTC has hundreds of schools, offering various levels of education, military and civilian.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2014 8:28 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Apr 2014 08:28:05 -0400

MSG, I did ROTC and I found it was the best option for me. I felt that it prepared me to be an officer. My program was made up of about 100-180 cadets, which ment the ratio was way smaller than that of the USMA. So, I had more 1-1 time with the officers and senior NCOs. Key being the senior NCOs, I picked their brains on everything.

I believe ROTC affords that pre OJT that you recieve as a brand new PL from you PSG. However, when it came to having a netork and living the army life I was lacking as young LT. That just made me try harder to be the best officer I coud be for my soldiers.

I think both programs produce brilliant officers but its all about the cadet/officer input. You cant take a lazy unmotivated person and put them into either program and expect great resluts. I do believe that ROTC produes more well adjuted officer that are more prone to adapt to soldiers and issues.

Once again, I can only speak from my own exerience.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2014 10:38 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 24 May 2014 22:38:02 -0400

Hey Holland!
No time no talk!
To answer your question, generally speaking, more West Point Cadets tend to become Generals however, Gen Colin Powell attended ROTC and was the first 4 Star to come out of ROTC. First African American, and first African American as the Head of The Joint Chiefs of Staff. I believe it's about determination. If that is how far you want to go, ONLY YOU can stop you from reaching that goal. :)

Response by Sgt Randy Hill made May 25 at 2014 7:35 AM

Sgt Randy Hill — Sun, 25 May 2014 07:35:27 -0400

I would think west point would statistically get the nod just like many air force academy grad and pilots get the nod. Maybe these trends have changed since my day in uniform. Great question PFC.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2014 1:48 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 26 May 2014 01:48:09 -0400

I attend John Carroll University which is currently ranked #1 in the nation for ROTC and has produced one four star general. Our Professor of Military Science or Battalion Commander attended West Point and he says our cadets are as squared away as any West Pointer. I think why a majority of Generals were West Pointers because if a young person is willing to spend there college years locked away on a island of militarism doing Army stuff day in and day out that person really wants a life-time career in the Army.

Personally I think some of the benefits of ROTC is that it there is a lot more personal responsibility to say get to PT in the morning because unlike at West Point only small percentage of the student body are cadets. I also like being at a civilian college so I can expand my relationship with civilians and see what I'll be fighting for in the future. On the flip side I can definitely imagine how cool it would be to go through the same halls Pershing, Patton, Eisenhower, and MacArthur and be a member of the Long Grey Line. Hope that helps!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2014 9:02 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 26 May 2014 09:02:22 -0400

Statistically speaking, I am sure that you would find that West Point had a bit of a leg-up historically speaking. However, I bet the statistics would also demonstrate that this trend is becoming more even between all commissioning sources.

Here is what it is really going to come down to: your performance and potential. If you are the top O-6, your commissioning source will not matter. I am a Direct Commissionee, and I feel as though I stand just as good of a chance as any other Officer at earning a star. I do not think that I will be one of those who will get a star (mostly due to MRD and age), but I feel as though I would have an equal shot at it.

There is one advantage to West Point: the experience and alumni network can provide some amazing development that extends beyond the four years spent on West Point.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 26 at 2014 8:19 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 Aug 2014 20:19:17 -0400

As one who spent 5.5 years getting a BA and commission (2.5 year USMA attendee (academic separation) and 2 year ROTC contracted cadet (no scholarship) and one year in between trying to figure out what I really wanted to do!) I'll say that each has merits and faults, but the individuals that come out of each program must then take whatever they learned from their commissioning source and build from that over time.
Personally I received a much better military education from USMA, specifically on military history and tactics. The intense work load (remember academically separated!) prepared me for a lifetime of learning, but other schools could also provide that.
I got a much better life education from ROTC in a civilian college. Having to worry about taking care of myself (no one woke me up in the morning or told me when and where I needed to eat or what time I had to turn my lights off and go to bed) and manage my life including school, military training and life in general better prepared me for being a 2LT at my first duty assignment.

I think a great commissioning source would for a young person to spend 2 years at USMA, then go into ROTC, but as graduating with a degree, find a way to not get commissioned, but instead enlist for OCS! I actually debated this a little bit since I figured I already had 2/3 sources covered, why not do one more.

Response by SFC(P) Tobias M. made Jan 27 at 2015 3:06 PM

SFC(P) Tobias M. — Tue, 27 Jan 2015 15:06:01 -0500

1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member Yes I can tell when an officer is a West Point officer or a ROTC officer. There is a difference. As for the NCO having a better eye on things it all depends on the NCO. I have had a few NCO's that didnt know the difference from their head and a hole in the wall. I have had officers that were better then those NCO's mentioned above. You have to look at the bigger picture. I myself feel that I have a better eye on things then a 1st or 2nd LT does and even some CPT's do (on the smaller picture or mission at hand). When looking at the bigger picture I know that most of your O4's and above have a better eye on things due to time in service. They have grown out of that (I am in charge) mind set and are now looking at things as a planning tool.

I have made sure that I do everything in my power to ensure that I know the bigger picture but know for a fact that when it comes to the mission at hand I see everything from ever angle that I can. I want my troops to respect me and willing to do anything for me (including die) if the need is there.

When you have an officer right out of ROTC/West Point they are getting someone so green that thinks that they know the best and do not want to take the advice of the senior personal in their ranks.

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made Mar 8 at 2015 4:46 PM

1LT Nick Kidwell — Sun, 08 Mar 2015 16:46:35 -0400

I can spot a West Point 2LT a mile away...mainly because he's announcing it at every opportunity.

Give me a Mustang any day, preferably a former NCO who has combat experience.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 12:52 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 12:52:50 -0400

How about right in the middle. VMI is like West Point, but with ROTC. We are the best of both worlds.

Response by COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM made Mar 3 at 2016 4:32 PM

COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM — Thu, 03 Mar 2016 16:32:05 -0500

A few thoughts:
- Define "better".
- Can someone tell the difference if an officer is an ROTC or a West Point graduate? Maybe initially but probably not after a several years of commissioned service.
- ROTC and West Point both have their advantages and disadvantages from a personal perspective. Both are capable of producing both good and bad officers.
- ROTC is spread among approximately 250 different universities with varying degrees of quality in terms of ROTC among those universities. ROTC produces about 75% of the Army's officers each year. There is also a few different options as to when and how one enters ROTC (4 year scholarship, 2 year scholarship, no scholarship).
- West Point is centralized at one location which makes it easier for quality control but West Point produces only about 25% of the Army's officers each year. There are a few different options to enter (out of high school, prior enlisted) but everyone goes through the same four year experience.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Nov 13 at 2018 6:41 PM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 18:41:45 -0500

It's funny you ask that...when I was Army ROTC for 3 yrs. before going USAF OTS at Lackland, long before it got moved to Maxwell, my ROTC unit actually trained a good deal at West Point with the cadets, so I got a quite good look at day-to-day realities there, plus, my next younger brother was USMMA Kings Point, and he quite rapidly found out that school, while it had apparently a farly well-deserved description as a "party" school on multiple occasions he saw, is a REAL serious place (it was, also, little known, I'm pretty sure, the first Federal academy to admit females, which I did certainly find interesting), I also knew many SUNY Maritime grads, and very nearly applied there, I still kick myself I didn't quite often, several times a day, in fact...actually, USMMA is, apparently, the only Federal academy with actual battle penants on it's flags, none of the other Federal academies have them, due to all the midshipmen lost during WW2 in the Murmansk runs and other convoy duty...I also worked a good deal with many USAFA grads, obviously, and, the deputy airbase group commander where I was, had been Annapolis, he went USAF on graduating, the only instance I ever encountered of that...the O-9 commanding when I first got there had been a B-17 tail gunner in WW2 who'd gotten into West Point, he used to sit in the O club during the Army-Navy game with his West Point sweater on...also, a junior airman, while I was there, got into USAFA directly, without having to go to the USAFA prep school, also the only time I ever saw that, as well...I didn't overtly notice clearcut differences per se, from the academy grads, as opposed to the various ROTC grads I'd met, or any OCS/OTS or OIS grads...one USAFA grad I worked with had gone through airborne training while he'd been at USAFA, having gone through it at Ft. Benning...I did envy them their having had more time to adjust properly to learning how to function in the role...I often wish I'd been enlisted first, before having gone to USAF OTS, many of those in the program there had been prior enlisted, one guy actually had Navy sub enlisted dolphins, the prior enlisted attendees pretty much always had a far more decent idea of what was expected, whereas I was pretty much totally clueless for God only knows how long, which was also why I had to go through USAF OTS twice, having been recycled once...just some observations, for whatever they might be worth...it was a quite good question, though, certainly....

Response by CPT Robert Boshears made May 30 at 2019 1:30 PM

CPT Robert Boshears — Thu, 30 May 2019 13:30:35 -0400

OCS, prior Enlisted (preferably over 4 years). This is the most cost effective path to a commission and prior service gives them a head start.

Response by Sgt Phil Quintana made Aug 26 at 2019 2:58 PM

Sgt Phil Quintana — Mon, 26 Aug 2019 14:58:29 -0400

In my experience it was the person, not the source of their education or commissioning. Lt D., USNA, and Lt. B., OSU, were both hard working and and very receptive to instruction from us NCOs. In my opinion the only difference was one was regular Marine, the other was reserve on extended active duty.

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made May 26 at 2020 4:15 AM

1LT Nick Kidwell — Tue, 26 May 2020 04:15:15 -0400

How can you tell if your new PL is a West Pointer vegan who does Crossfit....? ;)