Who are the real losers when immature members gain rank too quickly?

TSgt Joshua Lynch — Thu, 12 Mar 2015 21:41:26 -0400

We've all seen it; young high IQ members making rank without the maturity to lead those who they outrank. What's the fallout and with new board procedures, will this trend increase or subside?

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Mar 12 at 2015 9:49 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Thu, 12 Mar 2015 21:49:47 -0400

TSgt Joshua Lynch, E5/E6 promotion will go to those with the best performance that test well. There will be a HUGE points advantage to those that receive the top definitely promote rating. That said, those that get the equivalent of the old "4" and "3" are still promotable, they just have to test even better. Once you get to testing for E7+ it really becomes about long term sustained performance since the board score is the largest chunk of the point.

For E7 specifically, there is a fee to get to the show, have to get that pair of 40's (aggregate of 90) and be in the top 60% to get to the board. For E8+, no CCAF means no testings.

All of these changes might just slow the "fast burners" who just "test really well" since the EPR weighs so heavily now.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Mar 12 at 2015 9:53 PM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Thu, 12 Mar 2015 21:53:28 -0400

The ones that pay is the subordinate they will (attempt) to lead. You have to select the right Service Members, we grow our military ourselves, do the counseling, challenge your subordinates with tough, realistic training and reward them for demonstrated excellence.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2015 6:46 AM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Mar 2015 06:46:30 -0400

Good question, the real losers are the ones that supervisors have not given accurate feedback or rating too and are allowed to promote too quickly. They are the losers because they are going to be challenged to lead and supervise as you say however at some point they are going to be held accountable for the responsibilities of the rank they are promoted too. When that happens it will have a huge impact on their career and mental state as they have to work though not being as "good" as they were led to believe they were.

Do their subordinates lose as well? Yes but their subordinates can always get mentored and developed by others around. It's easy to see through those that don't have a clue.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Mar 13 at 2015 9:53 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Fri, 13 Mar 2015 09:53:27 -0400

On the Marine Corps side, there is always the Rec/Non-Rec through Sgt (E5), then Annual Board above that. But, let's look at the system of promotions. Working under the concept that E3 is essentially "automatic" (TIS/TIS requirements, and don't do anything stupid). Promotion to Cpl/Sgt is based on statistical information.

1000 points from Pro/Con (as long as you don't do anything stupid you will get 800). 250 from Rifle, 250 from PFT. TIS is 2 points per month. TIG is 5 points per month. 100 points from education. 100 points from B-Billet/Recruiting bonus. This creates a composite score. (These numbers may have changed).

The Corps then determines how many Cpls/Sgts it needs (based on TO) puts all the composite scores in order, and counts down that many. If it needs 50, it draws a line under #50 (51+ if tied with 50). Whatever that number is, is the cutting score. If your composite score is better than the cutting score for the quarter, you get promoted (provided you aren't non-rec'd).

Now, what does that have to do with maturity? Not a thing. It's a normalized rating system, where each attribute is assigned a point value. But... that's why we have a Rec/Non-rec procedures to weed folks out.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2015 11:26 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Mar 2015 11:26:17 -0400

Clearly the "real losers" will be their subordinates. I am not very familiar with the way promotions/boards work in the AF, but after seeing the way the Army and Navy do it: I think that this trend will endure until we get into a conflict that requires us to get away from this political BS and back to basics. That may not happen in our careers. Just do your best to train them. I realize you may be talking about your boss, but I stand by it. take him aside and voice your opinions. Maybe even take the guy out for a beer and have a frank discussion with him.

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Mar 13 at 2015 5:37 PM

LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow — Fri, 13 Mar 2015 17:37:30 -0400

TSgt Joshua Lynch I don't know what it's like in the USAF. I served in the Nuclear Navy as both an enlisted man and an officer. We all came in as E3's and were promoted to E4 before Nuclear Power School. I was an E5 in 1 1/2 years.

When all in the community have this status, it really isn't a hurdle. It becomes incumbent on the CPO's and First Classes (E7/above, E6) to be the leaders. But then, isn't that the case really everywhere?

This is very true in many specialties in the Navy. Why? Because such folks can make huge amounts on the outside. There has to be a way to keep people in and motivated. Nuclear Power is incredibly grueling work, and there are few thanks for the tough job. So rank is used because it's a simple way to increase pay. Even so, an E5 under four who is nuclear qualified can make so much more on the outside.

It may be a very different situation in the other branches and specialties, but that's one snapshot where it works for the most part...

Response by Maj Tyrone Frost made Mar 14 at 2015 2:41 AM

Maj Tyrone Frost — Sat, 14 Mar 2015 02:41:25 -0400

I think the problem is we are over-tasked. We are more responsible for everything including the mission. We no longer mentor young troops to help them mature. Once we start caring about people it'll work itself out.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Mar 14 at 2015 7:09 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Sat, 14 Mar 2015 19:09:13 -0400

Everyone.

Response by PO1 Jeff Doan made Mar 15 at 2015 8:14 AM

PO1 Jeff Doan — Sun, 15 Mar 2015 08:14:49 -0400

I my own experience, as a 21 y/o E5, I had the technical knowledge, but not the maturity to lead! The best thing that happened to me was when I was reduced to E3! (22nd birthday party in Subic Bay!) I was subordinate to the sailors that I lead! I could see myself in their shoes and ask myself...Did I act like that? When the answer was YES...I vowed to do better next time. Regaining the rank (the hard way..testing and waiting) I was able to lead with great results! As a 24 y/o E5 my subordinates would follow me anywhere! The ability to lead has nothing to do with politics, degrees or technical qualifications. The technical parts can be learned from the subordinates, if you are willing to listen.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2015 11:40 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Mar 2015 23:40:56 -0400

I think that it will increase... Especially in today's environment

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2015 10:13 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 24 May 2015 22:13:43 -0400

Tsgt. fire protection Guard. We have had alot of new airmen and non have the marcuity

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Jul 29 at 2015 9:52 PM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Wed, 29 Jul 2015 21:52:43 -0400

There must be some sort of observation of promotion eligible troops to be surebtheyvare emotionally ready for promotion and the inherit responsibilities that come with them

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2015 5:50 PM

1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Aug 2015 17:50:41 -0400

This is the problem with inflating evaluations. No one wants to be the bad guy and tell that young Cpl he is not ready yet and then provide the guidance and supervision to turn him into the stormtrooper he wants to be. Being a true leader is difficult and at time unpleasant, but until we quit sugercoating failures this is the chosen path.

Semper Fidelis.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2015 7:27 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Aug 2015 19:27:41 -0400

TSgt Joshua Lynch, I'm late to his post, but I feel that everyone in the chain of command suffers. The Leaders of this ineffective junior leader suffer because they have to provide monumental levels of mentorship and guidance to hopefully change the mindset of this junior leader. The Soldiers that this junior leader is in charge of suffer because they are not receiving the leadership that they deserve or need and the peers of this junior leader suffer because they are charged to pickup the slack to ensure that their battle buddy doesn't fail.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2015 7:42 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Aug 2015 19:42:16 -0400

It depends on what type of immaturity you are talking about. Immaturity is a broad word that can include misconduct, poor motivation/attitude, or lack of self-confidence. However in all cases, the commander/supervisor should be mentoring, training and supporting such individuals. Only if it does not help then you consider reclassifying or discharging. There are also members are are great technical performers but poor leaders. Such people should be assigned accordingly; (that was original purpose of specialist grade and WW2 tech sgt grades) however, these folks should still be mentored to try to develop their leadership so they can teach or support others to learn and perform.

Response by GySgt Moses Lozano made Aug 4 at 2015 10:27 PM

GySgt Moses Lozano — Tue, 04 Aug 2015 22:27:06 -0400

Unfortunately, the main losers are the troops they are tasked to lead. The only hope is a good NCO or SNCO who intervenes and brings a sanity check to potential stupid actions ordered by these idiots.

Response by Lt Col John Eliopolo Cpc, Eli Mp made Aug 5 at 2015 9:05 AM

Lt Col John Eliopolo Cpc, Eli Mp — Wed, 05 Aug 2015 09:05:00 -0400

You could say everyone, but mostly their peers. First of all, it sends the wrong message to their peer group that it's really posturing for promotion that counts, not getting the mission done; in other words, that's what really gets rewarded, filling all the squares and sucking up to the right people. Secondly, it deflates the peer group in some way and makes them, imo, not try quite as hard getting the mission done, but just getting by becomes the new standard; in other words, doing the job, but that's it. There's no "going the extra mile" stuff from them anymore. They reason, "Why bother?"

Response by TSgt Anthony White made Dec 24 at 2015 5:15 AM

TSgt Anthony White — Thu, 24 Dec 2015 05:15:27 -0500

I worked with a Tsgt who got rank do to his "Book Knowledge" as he said. Nice guy but couldn't turn a wrench if he had too. Funny thing is, he might not have been able to do the physical side of being an aircraft mechanic, but he sure could tell you everything/step-by-step on how to complete the task.
He was a good leader, just couldn't turn a wrench. That hurt us at times trying to get so many planes off the ground.

Response by TSgt Jennifer Disch made Jan 4 at 2016 7:17 PM

TSgt Jennifer Disch — Mon, 04 Jan 2016 19:17:55 -0500

Airmen, troops, soldiers, sailors....etc

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2017 9:27 AM

LTJG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Nov 2017 09:27:49 -0500

The real losers or the individuals that have to follow the immature member. If a member is given soldiers, airmen, sailors, marines, etc to lead and they arent ready, they will suffer the most.

Response by SGT Fredrick Ramm made Jan 23 at 2018 1:53 PM

SGT Fredrick Ramm — Tue, 23 Jan 2018 13:53:03 -0500

I will admit that I was an over paid private...I knew the nuts and bolts of being a Tanker, a Red Eye Gunner, unit operations, kept busy and my nose clean, in the middle of the worst desertion rate in history, plus I was in a Tank Unit. (at 19 I was already filling a Platoon Sergeants slot, thus the 11E40R6) Quite Frankly, BNCO Academy (which was at Erlangen, Ferris Barracks) I don't know, whether I would have cut it. I was never was in to a rehash of TA-50, locker, bunk Inspections, spit shine boots..I could have gone home to Majoring in Under Water Basket Weaving and ROTC (or National Guard OCS!!), got better results. Although a buddy of mine from The 1/1 Cav (Americal Div) said his division set up a more sensible BNCO course in Vietnam "How to lead and operate on the battle field" as he once relayed to yours truly. Question: Is there any one out there, who remembers, The "Try One Year as a 2 Lt." 1972 Letters, from The Army Reserves?...or is this a figment of my 67 year old imagination?

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Jan 23 at 2018 7:04 PM

SSG Edward Tilton — Tue, 23 Jan 2018 19:04:40 -0500

As long as promotions are made by people who don't live or work with those involved