Who can still remember doing this?

SFC John Birks — Sun, 13 Dec 2015 19:02:39 -0500

I still remember those days doing rifle qualification. Kids these days are spoiled with the ACOGs and CCOs. Being a former Soldier who has done both in my career. The optics make it much easier. Who else can remember those iron sight days?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2015 7:21 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Dec 2015 19:21:32 -0500

I still zero my iron sights first. ALWAYS

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Dec 13 at 2015 7:21 PM

LTC Stephen F. — Sun, 13 Dec 2015 19:21:38 -0500

I too remember doing rifle drills on KD ranges with iron sights - windage and elevation were discussed with the M-14 rifle and the M-16 rifle SFC John Birks

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2015 7:25 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Dec 2015 19:25:36 -0500

Graduated from Basic at Fort Sill on August 21st this year. We shot CCOs one day for familiarization and did our night fire with them. We qualified with M4s or M16s and Iron Sights. I much prefer the Irons to the optics.

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Dec 13 at 2015 7:35 PM

SGT Jerrold Pesz — Sun, 13 Dec 2015 19:35:34 -0500

I like iron sights. For some reason I just never was that excited about any version of optics.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2015 8:02 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Dec 2015 20:02:47 -0500

I just graduated in 2014. Never blessed with ACOGS. Other company's did. Our DS's thought that was cheating lol. Good times good times. Iron sights all the way. 35/40

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Dec 13 at 2015 8:31 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Sun, 13 Dec 2015 20:31:44 -0500

In all seriousness the military's decision to no longer require qualifications on Iron sights is a liability (I am particularly disappointed in my own branch over this). Maybe, just maybe, with rugged enough optics you could allow qualifications on optics at longer ranges with Irons being mandatory for anything 200 yards or less. (Not because Irons cant be used effectively out to 500M but because if your optics go down in real combat you're most likely to be making shots at 200 or less until you can get back to a FOB for a new optic.)

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Dec 13 at 2015 8:34 PM

LTC Stephen C. — Sun, 13 Dec 2015 20:34:59 -0500

SFC John Birks, I never used anything but iron sights.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Dec 13 at 2015 8:48 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 13 Dec 2015 20:48:58 -0500

No but the Unit Conduct Of Fire for tanks kicked my ass.

Response by SSgt Dan Montague made Dec 13 at 2015 8:50 PM

SSgt Dan Montague — Sun, 13 Dec 2015 20:50:20 -0500

Training with optics should be at a unit level ONLY!!. The rifle range is for learning and refreshing yourself with the fundamentals of marksmanship. The rifle range should be iron sight from BZO line all the way to the 500 line.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Dec 13 at 2015 9:19 PM

CSM Charles Hayden — Sun, 13 Dec 2015 21:19:41 -0500

SFC John Birks In Basic Training in 1953, all of our M-1 Garand rifles; gas operated, clip fed, semi-automatic, shoulder-fired weapons, weighing 9 1/2 lbs, w/ 8 round clips had iron sights!

We did learn about Night Vision sights mounted on iron sighted, M-1 Carbines at a night firing range. The target image was very greenish in coloration, like a bad dream!

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Dec 13 at 2015 10:00 PM

Capt Seid Waddell — Sun, 13 Dec 2015 22:00:12 -0500

That is the way I did it - though not drunk.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2015 10:18 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Dec 2015 22:18:43 -0500

Always qualified with iron sight. I would like to see reflexive pistol shooting, though. I have never seen enemy standing still and waiting 30 seconds for someone to aim and shoot a pistol. I started a teen in Rapid Fire Pistol (25m, 5 targets, three rounds of 8, 6, and 4 seconds for all 5 targets). Having all the time in the world I never boasted hitting 40 out of 40 bullseyes with the piece of crap called M9. Again, I had all the time in the world. Darn! I guess I just boasted. Shame on me. As opposed to officers that closed both eyes when pulling trigger ;-)

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2015 10:23 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Dec 2015 22:23:30 -0500

OSUT 2012 still required an iron sight qual. Have used an M68 for every qual since though.

Response by SGT James Allen made Dec 13 at 2015 10:45 PM

SGT James Allen — Sun, 13 Dec 2015 22:45:26 -0500

Qualified M16A1's with iron sites. After I got out of the Army, tried using a scope on my Mini-14. Hated it. Went back to my iron sites.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Dec 13 at 2015 10:58 PM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Sun, 13 Dec 2015 22:58:48 -0500

Have always liked iron sights. Entire military career iron sights, always fired expert. Got my Dad's 30-06 Enfield, peep sights. Done just fine with it as well. I made a fantastic shot with it one time, amazed a client as he couldn't believe a shot like I made could be done with iron sights.

Response by SPC Matthew Birkinbine made Dec 13 at 2015 11:15 PM

SPC Matthew Birkinbine — Sun, 13 Dec 2015 23:15:57 -0500

My old guard unit still had M16A1's.

Response by SGT Robert Deem made Dec 13 at 2015 11:25 PM

SGT Robert Deem — Sun, 13 Dec 2015 23:25:29 -0500

Optics weren't even a thing when I was in (unless you were a sniper). I just can't even wrap my head around qualifying with anything other than iron.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2015 11:38 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Dec 2015 23:38:25 -0500

I still prefer it & my unit currently alternates iron sight qualification & optics every other year.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Dec 14 at 2015 5:07 AM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Mon, 14 Dec 2015 05:07:03 -0500

"I remember way back when during the Great War" LOL!

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Dec 14 at 2015 7:51 AM

LTC Bink Romanick — Mon, 14 Dec 2015 07:51:03 -0500

SFC John Birks I qualified with the M1, M1 Carbine and M14 does that count?

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Dec 14 at 2015 10:20 AM

SGT Bryon Sergent — Mon, 14 Dec 2015 10:20:34 -0500

Well IMO optics are great things, But not all optics are good! Look at the CCO. Young privates that don't know that the optic can be knocked off, need the fall back on the Iron sights. If something happened and it was in operable what are you going to fall back on. take less time to knock out the irons and then bring the optic online. Not to include that the armors take the optics off the rifle to store them. they don't always put them back where they where and they get knocked around and then rplaced on a rifle and now there off again. So Iron sights are a must. Especially team leaders and squad leaders. I have an ACOG and they took it off. Now, will I get the ACOG back or a CCO that will not be zeroed to my weapon? Give me Iron sights!

Response by SGT William Howell made Dec 14 at 2015 10:31 AM

SGT William Howell — Mon, 14 Dec 2015 10:31:48 -0500

Back in the day iron sights were the only way to go. Now that I can't even see the front sight, I have no clue how the old guys even did it. I now understand why we have burst fire on our weapons. Point in the general direction and spray.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 14 at 2015 11:43 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 14 Dec 2015 11:43:22 -0500

I still do this. Minus the hungover part. My body don't rightly recover like it used to.

Response by SGT Christopher Churilla made Dec 14 at 2015 12:22 PM

SGT Christopher Churilla — Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:22:46 -0500

Qualified with iron sights a couple of months ago and scored the exact same as I did with an ACOG I used the time before that. And I learned a valuable lesson about aiming in the process, so I think we should use them and leave the fancy optics to the snipers.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 14 at 2015 12:23 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:23:10 -0500

Rain, loop sling, iron sights... that was me two weeks ago.
I still shot 35.
Bitter at that 100m that didn't want to fall after two rounds expended.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Dec 14 at 2015 1:32 PM

MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P — Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:32:09 -0500

Just my humble opinion but I believe every member should have to demonstrate proficiency and accuracy firing with iron sights before they are allowed to even touch an optic system much less get to use it.

Whether you chose to do so hung over is up to you. I don't recover as quickly as I used to so I will forego that distinct displeasure......

Response by SSG Todd Halverson made Dec 14 at 2015 1:50 PM

SSG Todd Halverson — Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:50:05 -0500

That is the only way I qualified..... even later in my career when I had an ACOG. One needs to be proficient with the Iron Sights because sooner or later the optics will fail one way or another. If they want, have them qualify with both; the optics qualification would be to demonstrate proficiency.

Response by SPC Alexsis Chancellor made Dec 14 at 2015 10:22 PM

SPC Alexsis Chancellor — Mon, 14 Dec 2015 22:22:18 -0500

I agree.. I can't believe you're not required to be proficient in using iron sights anymore. Smh

Response by MSG John Wirts made Dec 14 at 2015 10:43 PM

MSG John Wirts — Mon, 14 Dec 2015 22:43:00 -0500

Iron sights on the 30-40 Kraig, the M-1 Garand, the M-14, the M-1, 2 carbine, the 38 S&W Combat Master, the 1911 45 cal, the M-16, M-16A1, all with iron sights. Never had hands on a military rifle with a scope.

Response by Maj Mike Sciales made Dec 15 at 2015 1:44 AM

Maj Mike Sciales — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 01:44:14 -0500

I learned on iron sights. 100 yards. Won plenty of competitions, but am glad they have better optics & computer assist to make anybody a sniper. Better return on investment.

Response by SGT Aaron Barbee made Dec 15 at 2015 1:54 PM

SGT Aaron Barbee — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 13:54:48 -0500

I honestly can't remember not qualifying with iron sights. I know in the units I was assigned to, you had to qualify Sharpshooter at a minimum to even consider qualifying with any optic on your weapons.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2015 3:05 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 15:05:30 -0500

It's not just the old days. In the past 3 years of qualification, I've zero'ed and qualified with an M16A2 and the iron sights. No CCOs, no ACOGs.

Response by SSG Jeff Binkiewicz made Dec 16 at 2015 6:07 PM

SSG Jeff Binkiewicz — Wed, 16 Dec 2015 18:07:37 -0500

We never had anything but iron sights. The best way to shoot as far as I am concerned. What happens when these new fangled optics break or are lost. Just another example of sissifying the military.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 16 at 2015 11:17 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Dec 2015 23:17:27 -0500

SFC John Birks, I never shot anything but iron sights. From the M-14 to the AR-15, was nothing but iron sights. Are you saying the rifle qualifications are with scopes mounted on the rifles? They should be trained with both sights in case they ever need to use a weapon without optics. IMHO.

Response by Sgt Brian Benway made Jan 6 at 2016 4:11 PM

Sgt Brian Benway — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 16:11:11 -0500

Oh yea, still shot expert.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2016 6:30 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 18:30:10 -0500

what some times get me. Some NCO's qualified with a ACOGs brag about it, for having 35 to 38 and there soldiers with 68s do a 30 to 35.... when you ask them to do it Iron Sight they complain.

Response by CSM David Hopkins made Jan 6 at 2016 11:20 PM

CSM David Hopkins — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 23:20:14 -0500

This is my take on this discussion. First and foremost I believe that SSG Joseph Sargeant said the key thing, it is about marksmanship fundamentals. If you properly apply those fundamentals when firing you will be successful whether firing with iron sights or another type of sight. My personal opinion is that if we have the ability to put a piece of equipment in our Soldiers hands and give them the opportunity to have an upper hand against their enemy on the two-way rifle range why wouldn't we do that? Our Soldiers deserve the best equipment we can provide them, it is up to the leaders to properly train them in the use of the equipment in order to maximize the capability. When deployed to Afghanistan in 2009 I had a Soldier that lost his M145 scope for his M249. The basic facts behind the loss is that he removed it from his weapon and said he secured it in a footlocker. When I asked him why he told me, "I don't really like it." Of course I was very livid at this comment and I simply posed one question to him, "Would you prefer I give this sight to the enemy so that he can see you from a much further distance?"
I do agree that these sights can break and when in a firefight you need to have the ability to still engage with accurate fire, that is the purpose of ensuring the BIS (back-up iron sight) is zeroed, but I believe the qualification should be with the primary sight. Yes, being able to shoot expert with iron sights is awesome and certainly shows our younger generation that it is possible, but all qualification still goes back the the fundamentals.

Response by Cpl Chris Cargile made Jan 30 at 2016 12:05 PM

Cpl Chris Cargile — Sat, 30 Jan 2016 12:05:52 -0500

Yep, Second Award expert w/ iron sights, loop-sling and that shooting jacket with the padding. Still like iron sights for short work, but as my eyes get older I find uses for optics.

Response by Sgt Jay Jones made Feb 2 at 2016 10:26 PM

Sgt Jay Jones — Tue, 02 Feb 2016 22:26:24 -0500

YES, I remember it! Fired Rifle Expert with an M-14 iron sights starting at 200, 300 and finally 500 yards. U.S.M.C. rifle qualifications.

Response by SGT Greg Gold made Dec 7 at 2016 10:35 AM

SGT Greg Gold — Wed, 07 Dec 2016 10:35:51 -0500

I'll put it this way, the Army hit a home run wit the M68 CCO. The Comp M4 is the best of the bunch. Soldiers being who they are, if you put a private in a room with two ball bearings he\she would break one and loose the other. That's just how it works.

That being said batteries fail, equipment gets damaged, and you want to stay alive. At some point you're going to need your iron sights, and that time is not the time to figure out how they work.

Response by Sgt Joseph Baker made Dec 8 at 2016 12:58 AM

Sgt Joseph Baker — Thu, 08 Dec 2016 00:58:27 -0500

I shot a 6" group at 500 meters in boot camp with iron sights. One thing about your iron sights, water doesn't bother them nor does a little mud, batteries don't go dead at worst possible time, you can bump into something and they still shoot straight, and they aren't made of thin metal and glass. My opinion is keep qualifying with the iron sights, that way we know you will always be able to use your rifle effectively. Then spend a couple hours on qualifying day to practice with an optic if that is your preference so you can shoot with it as well.

Response by SFC Charles Temm made Dec 12 at 2016 3:28 PM

SFC Charles Temm — Mon, 12 Dec 2016 15:28:25 -0500

can't say I remember qualifying still lit up but hungover, yes

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 10 at 2018 12:15 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 Jul 2018 12:15:11 -0400

I once shot a perfect score with iron sights. Haven't done that with optics.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 10 at 2018 10:05 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:05:16 -0400

Absolutely! But damn, that loop sling on the M-1911A1 was a bitch...

Response by SGT Philip Roncari made Jul 10 at 2018 10:46 PM

SGT Philip Roncari — Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:46:08 -0400

Yes iron sights”,battle sight zero” windage and elevation,absolute discipline by the range NCOs and Officers,good old M14 Ft.Lewis Wa.1965, then of course they ruined everything with that piece of crap M16!

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jul 11 at 2018 10:12 AM

SGM Bill Frazer — Wed, 11 Jul 2018 10:12:41 -0400

Yep, all the way to All Army Competition at 500 yds.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 13 at 2019 5:21 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Thu, 13 Jun 2019 17:21:21 -0400

I was told in the old army, a tank gunner was such an alcohol that he needed a 6 pack of beer to shoot well at gunnery.

Response by SPC Michael Oles SR made Jun 3 at 2021 12:04 AM

SPC Michael Oles SR — Thu, 03 Jun 2021 00:04:20 -0400

Iron sights is all I’ve ever used

Response by SPC Les Darbison made Jul 3 at 2021 6:01 PM

SPC Les Darbison — Sat, 03 Jul 2021 18:01:03 -0400

Iron sites and qualifying out to 500 yds.

Response by CW3 Harvey K. made Dec 26 at 2022 2:21 PM

CW3 Harvey K. — Mon, 26 Dec 2022 14:21:58 -0500

I remember one NCO/Instructor who informed us, "We don't have telescopic sights on our rifles, we have iron sights. If you can't see your target, squint. If you still can't see your target, squint harder, until you DO see it!!"