Who is offended by "Fiddlers Green?"

2015-06-14T21:13:34-04:00

As a Cavalryman for life, I am fond of the Fiddlers Green poem. I can appreciate it. It is unique. But some have mentioned to me it is offensive to other non-cavalrymen and that it encourages suicide. I disagree. Is it offensive to you?

Response by CH (COL) Geoff Bailey made Jun 14 at 2015 9:21 PM

2015-06-14T21:21:17-04:00

I'm not offended by it, but would be cautious of the setting in which I referred to the poem.

It does provide instructions on how to avoid being scalped alive. The method is suicide, but is a means of avoiding torturous death at the hands of enemy combatants. That said, I would not recommend that method.

It's still a part of tradition and should be retained as such, but within that context.

Response by SFC Rollie Hubbard made Jun 14 at 2015 9:31 PM

2015-06-14T21:31:26-04:00

It never bothered me and the closest I came to being in the Cav was the 1st Cav at hood, besides I believe that all soldiers will meet there one day.

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Jun 14 at 2015 9:34 PM

2015-06-14T21:34:16-04:00

I will go to the Green. I'm proud of our tradition. 4th generation cavalry. IYACYAS.

Stay on the tank!

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Jun 14 at 2015 9:36 PM

2015-06-14T21:36:54-04:00

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2015 9:37 PM

2015-06-14T21:37:05-04:00

Im a Fister, ive been with cav the last 3 years and am not offended by it. Each group has their own poems/prayers/history and symbolism. Its part of the cav tradition.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Jun 14 at 2015 9:39 PM

2015-06-14T21:39:41-04:00

Fiddler's Green talks about going down fighting until there is no alternative, in Cavalry tradition, outnumbered. It has been around for decades.I think people will twist it however they want to make something a "thing". Allons.

Cavalrymen, dismount and prepare to fight on foot!

Response by CPT Chris Loomis made Jun 14 at 2015 9:40 PM

2015-06-14T21:40:23-04:00

I agree with MAJ Geoff Bailey and SPC Rollie Hubbard on both the points they make.

FYI: The pub at JFTB Los Alamitos, CA is named Fiddlers Green. I don't frequent it very often, but have fond memories.

I too also like to believe believe that Fiddlers Green is a place where ALL Soldiers (and Marines) will one day again meet. I think it's the ORP that Soldiers receive the WARNO to move on to their final objective/mission.

-----------

On another note:

HAPPY 240th BIRTHDAY SOLDIERS!! HOOOAH!!!

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Jun 14 at 2015 9:41 PM

2015-06-14T21:41:30-04:00

To me, it sounds like some people are just searching for something to be offended by.

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made Jun 14 at 2015 9:41 PM

2015-06-14T21:41:44-04:00

maybe in the context of the time period in which it was written it might of been in a different context then now.

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Jun 14 at 2015 10:10 PM

2015-06-14T22:10:14-04:00

Fiddlers Green was first written in the Cavalry Journal in 1923 by a veteran of the Indian Wars .comes from an old Irish traditiion

Response by SSG Eric Trace made Jun 14 at 2015 10:15 PM

2015-06-14T22:15:41-04:00

Not I, my spur ride is one of my best memories!

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Jun 14 at 2015 10:26 PM

2015-06-14T22:26:41-04:00

I guess someone's always going to be offended in the PC world we live in now CH (MAJ) William Beaver! The poem is part of cavalry legend and lore, and folks just need to get over it! Suicide?! Absurd! I like "The Ballad of the Green Berets" and I guess the same could be said for it. I'm still here, though!

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Jun 14 at 2015 10:41 PM

2015-06-14T22:41:07-04:00

Sir:

I am a career INFANTRYMAN. I am in no way offended by Fiddlers Green. We, as paratroopers, have songs and poem that say that no one other than Paratroopers are worth a crap. Units and Specialties MUST have that individual pride or they fail to do what they have to do. Much like the following:

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made Jun 14 at 2015 10:53 PM

2015-06-14T22:53:04-04:00

Personally I think all POACMS are offensive.
But I have never found a poem to be offensive.
Now "GaryOwen" ... that's another thing.

Response by SSG Gerhard S. made Jun 14 at 2015 11:18 PM

2015-06-14T23:18:32-04:00

I would suggest that some choose to be too easily offended.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Jun 14 at 2015 11:19 PM

2015-06-14T23:19:44-04:00

People like to be offended.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Jun 14 at 2015 11:51 PM

2015-06-14T23:51:30-04:00

Doesn't offend me one bit having been in CAV units for almost half my career, those that are offended obviously have not taken the time to learn the history behind Fiddler's Green. It's a part of CAV tradition, learned and recited by all whom aspire to earn their spurs during their Spur Ride and is dear to those who have earned them and are CAV Troopers at heart. Allons!!

Response by SGT Robert Hawks made Jun 15 at 2015 12:40 AM

2015-06-15T00:40:05-04:00

I am not offended spent most my military career in the Cav.

Response by SPC Christian Ziegler made Jun 15 at 2015 1:05 AM

2015-06-15T01:05:30-04:00

Well anybody that finds this offensive and is in the Cav can just turn in there Crossed Sabers and there Man card on the way out the door. Any one that has spent time around the Cav knows its a brother hood with long traditions. Some are easy some are tuff but a Trooper worth his damn salt would never find Fiddlers Green offensive. We had 11C do the spur ride, even some radio repair guys, mechanic's, Duck Hunter's, Arty, hell even chopper pilot's, everyone had a great time cause they where all Cav. Fiddlers Green was something that was there's too because they where Cav it does not matter what your MOS is if your in a CAV unit and you get that CAV mentality and that CAV heart you will always be CAV.

Makes me wonder if those personal just could not cut it on the spur ride, and had to find something to cry about. Seeing as this country is over run with PC bull why not try it out on Fiddlers Green. I say next time they complain ask them if they want to fill out a 4187 to go to 19D school and become CAV Scouts. Scouts Out

Response by PFC Courtney Hilliard made Jun 15 at 2015 1:11 AM

2015-06-15T01:11:01-04:00

My husband was Cav. He loves Fiddler's Green. This was the first time I'd actually gotten to read it, and while it's depressing, and a source to his mindset behind his PTSD, I find it quite beautiful.

Response by CSM James Winslow made Jun 15 at 2015 2:10 AM

2015-06-15T02:10:42-04:00

In this politically correct world we live in, it is all too easy to forget that the price of failure, both as a person and as a Soldier, was once considerably higher than it is today. The poem merely reflects the truth of the time in which it was written, in that death by one's own hand may have been preferable to the death meted out by the enemy.

Response by SGT Nathan Huff made Jun 15 at 2015 8:07 AM

2015-06-15T08:07:27-04:00

if you aint Cav you Aint S.......

we all have marching songs and sayings that can be offensive to others. Honestly has a Scout I loved that song. It sounds like some one is envious of our history.

Response by SGT Wilson Dickey made Jun 15 at 2015 9:54 AM

2015-06-15T09:54:20-04:00

Not offended....don't see why others would be, but that is society now. As an aside, as an infantryman it is perfectly understood why the cav would have to stop. You guys may not be able to make it all the way through to hell. That's a long march!

Response by SPC David S. made Jun 15 at 2015 11:44 AM

2015-06-15T11:44:20-04:00

The Green started out as a place for sailors so I can see the Navy guys and gals wanting to drop anchor. I think of the Green as more of a Elysian Fields or Valhalla where all the fallen are welcomed and encouraged to dismount, have a drink and hang out with your friends. The suicide part to me is the proverbial middle finger - "I'm going out on my terms, not yours". However the hostiles approaching can take on a different meaning in today's environment as the Indians of the time could be replaced with inner demons.

In the book "The Last and Greatest Battle: Finding the Will, Commitment, and Strategy to End Military Suicide" - mentions Fiddler's Green. However to get offended by a poem?

Response by SPC Kirk Burdette made Jun 15 at 2015 12:08 PM

2015-06-15T12:08:46-04:00

wow, I am not fond of it, I think it promotes suicide.

Response by SGT William Howell made Jun 15 at 2015 12:22 PM

2015-06-15T12:22:07-04:00

I always kept a single bullet in my med pouch for just such emergencies.

It is not encouraging suicide, it is discouraging being scalped or in this day and age, having your head cut off.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2015 1:37 PM

2015-06-15T13:37:52-04:00

First, any who get offended by this are just simply whining just to whine. Secondly, as for those that are reading way way way way to far into it that it encourages suicide, then they, too, need to perform a cranial-rectal extraction procedure.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2015 3:01 PM

2015-06-15T15:01:25-04:00

No, and I'm not sure that simply holding an opinion different from your own... qualifies something as offense. That said, it's probably not appropriate for use in any kind of official setting.

Response by SPC Larry Boutwell made Jun 16 at 2015 1:11 AM

2015-06-16T01:11:54-04:00

Well.... Death before dismount....blood before surrender..

Response by Sgt Nick Marshall made Jun 16 at 2015 4:09 AM

2015-06-16T04:09:25-04:00

I think it's great poetry!

Response by SFC Joseph Bosley made Jun 16 at 2015 8:29 AM

2015-06-16T08:29:52-04:00

I was a 21 year infantryman who had the distinct pleasure of serving for 3 years in the 2d Cavalry Regiment. Personally I don't find this song offensive, i actually really like it. Honestly anyone who is offended by it needs to grow a spine.

Response by MAJ Danny Clark made Jun 16 at 2015 8:36 AM

2015-06-16T08:36:48-04:00

Fiddeler's Green is a part of the Cavalry tradition. The combat arms profession is filled with these. Some much more grisly than this.

Response by CPL Norma Brown made Jun 16 at 2015 9:56 AM

2015-06-16T09:56:12-04:00

Offensive? No.

Part of a proud heritage of Cavalry? Heck yea! In all the units I've worked with (DA Civilian) Served with (veteran) or supported (spouse) The Cav units were the most history oriented and proud of their lineage... 3ACR (Carson/Hood 02-08) 1CD (09-11)

Response by SSG Lon Watson made Jun 16 at 2015 2:14 PM

2015-06-16T14:14:39-04:00

I got 5 and half years on jump status and 7 years in the CAV, 2ACR and 11TH ACR (OPFOR). I got my spurs in 2 ACR. It was the roughest day I ever spent in the army. Smoked doesn't begin to cover it.

Response by Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2015 9:12 PM

2015-06-19T21:12:52-04:00

Response by Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2015 9:13 PM

2015-06-19T21:13:16-04:00

Response by Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2015 9:13 PM

2015-06-19T21:13:35-04:00

Response by Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2015 9:14 PM

2015-06-19T21:14:39-04:00

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Jun 29 at 2015 1:19 AM

2015-06-29T01:19:33-04:00

Artillerymen tell themselves tales of Fiddler's Green, speaking as someone who served with a Marine Artillery Battalion that named their FOB exactly that. Also Old Irish Fishing songs mention it.

Also the suicide part sounds a lot like a Kipling poem, makes me suspicious of which came first.

Nothing to be offended by here, just mythology and stories different groups tell themselves.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2015 12:12 PM

2015-06-30T12:12:56-04:00

I am not offended by it, and understand that its a tradition, but I (personally, not in any official capacity) think that it doesn't align with our Army values. "I will never quit" doesn't seem to match putting my pistol to my head...also as a guy that is a little more sensitive to suicide, I can see how this might be interpreted in the wrong way by some...even making suicide seem "cool".

I still listen to "Don't fear the Reaper" as well, and won't be pulling the poem off the wall, but I won't be singing this in formation either.

Response by SGT John Condon made Jul 3 at 2015 6:03 PM

2015-07-03T18:03:53-04:00

No. I don't find it offensive. I wasn't a cavalryman & I don't find anything wrong with it. The way I see it-it's just a poem that helps to build esprit de corps among cavalrymen like any of a dozen or so poems or sayings that the other branches in the Army have to build up motivation within their branch.

Response by CPT Dave Brest made Aug 5 at 2015 10:34 PM

2015-08-05T22:34:11-04:00

I have always liked references to our cab traditions, such as terms like mount/dismount, or "pulling stables" (tank maintanance duty). It reinforces our uniqueness. I love the "fight-to-the-death" tone of fiddlers green.
Scouts out!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2015 2:20 AM

2015-08-08T02:20:43-04:00

I do not find it offensive..

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2015 7:06 PM

2015-08-08T19:06:54-04:00

Is this a real discussion? I am a bit lost at the point of it.

Response by COL Vincent Stoneking made Aug 8 at 2015 10:28 PM

2015-08-08T22:28:29-04:00

People whom I do not chose to associate with for $500?

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 31 at 2015 3:42 PM

2015-08-31T15:42:38-04:00

Not a Cavalryman (different time and place...ah, to live in dreams of grandeur!), but as the great-grandson of two...I think it goes right up there with, "The Captain goes down with the Ship".

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 31 at 2015 3:55 PM

2015-08-31T15:55:26-04:00

"Supporting The Three"
"I am the Infantry, follow me
Not a foot soldier, we're much more you see
We'll take the fight to the enemy
I am the infantry, first of "THE THREE"
"Supporting The Three"

"I am the Cavalry, follow me
A modern horse soldier in an APC
Charging straight forward to the enemy
I am the Cav, most daring of "THE THREE"

"I am the Armor, follow me
The arm of decision I'll always be
When the going gets rough, call on me
I am Armor, the best of "THE THREE"

Armor, Cav and Infantry
Rush headlong into the melee
Breaking the lines like an angry sea
Deep into enemy territory

"What a crazy person an MP must be
He has no firepower or armor like me
And I thought everyone followed "THE THREE"
Armor, Cav and Infantry"

"I am the MP, don't follow me
You don't want to be where I will be
Guarding a crossroad, waiting for "THE THREE"
Just my pardner, a sixteen, a sixty and me"

"With the objective taken, wait and see
No one will remember the lonely MP
Who held this ground so they could run free
But that's my job, supporting "THE THREE"

Response by SPC Brandy Ervin made Sep 2 at 2015 12:53 PM

2015-09-02T12:53:09-04:00

They are probably offended because it doesn't mention Their branch. Those who are will find any reason to be offended cause it puts them in the spot light.

Response by SPC Brandy Ervin made Sep 2 at 2015 1:01 PM

2015-09-02T13:01:01-04:00

I have an active account, but is really hasn't helped me in the employment department.

Response by SPC Brandy Ervin made Sep 2 at 2015 1:07 PM

2015-09-02T13:07:11-04:00

I think the removal of alot of the historian monuments and symbols, is because it either makes people think, or they do not know the true meaning behind it. Sadly most Americans hear someone who has no idea what their talking about make a comment on something the blindly follow it, without doing their own research.

Response by SPC Brandy Ervin made Sep 2 at 2015 1:27 PM

2015-09-02T13:27:00-04:00

Terrified, I had no idea how to operate as a civilian. I didn't have a set schedule, didn't have anyone to ask for advice that would actually help.I had no purpose. I felt like someone had tossed me into the ocean saying sink or swim and I was sinking fast. If it wasn't for God sending someone to snatched me up and shake some sense into my head before tossing me into a field where people didn't feel threatened or nervous when I did something "military". I don't even want to think of where I would be today.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 16 at 2015 1:01 PM

2015-09-16T13:01:28-04:00

No one with any sense of history and pride will be offended. But there is are entire industries built up to "be offended" now.

Response by SFC Paul Mattes made Sep 17 at 2015 11:56 PM

2015-09-17T23:56:26-04:00

Not at all.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 2:12 PM

2015-10-06T14:12:49-04:00

Chaplain, I was the Adjutant for 1-1 CAV for over 2 and 1/2 years, and I love the CAV. We had to memorize this as part of our Spur Ride requirements. I don't understand how anyone would have a problem with it.

Response by CPL Sharon Fahey made Apr 9 at 2016 1:15 PM

2016-04-09T13:15:31-04:00

Its awesome.

Response by SFC J Fullerton made May 4 at 2016 3:25 PM

2016-05-04T15:25:11-04:00

I am an Infantryman and have always been fond of 'Fiddlers Green'. Just a cool piece of heritage. When I was on recruiting, every time I put in a 19D I gave him a copy of it.

Response by SSgt Barry Gose made May 20 at 2018 12:46 AM

2018-05-20T00:46:15-04:00

In the time frame of the Indian wars, when this was probably written - the last thing you ever wanted was to fall into the hands of the hostiles. "especially the Apache". as they would slowly torture you to death and with great misery. Best to take the initiative and check out on your terms and not their's. I for one am not offended by this poem and I can accept the reasoning behind it given the circumstances.

Response by LTC Hilary Evers made Dec 11 at 2018 4:34 PM

2018-12-11T16:34:22-05:00

Why should we, of the fraternity of arms, care what some limp di*k thinks? Hurrah for all those who place their bodies between our country and those who would harm that country.
Hil Evers
1975-2005
3d ACR, 2d ACR

Response by MAJ Cooper Cantrell made Jan 16 at 2019 6:27 PM

2019-01-16T18:27:34-05:00

Well... If they are offended, maybe they should have joined the Cavalry!

Response by COL Clifford Wheeler made Jul 30 at 2019 1:33 PM

2019-07-30T13:33:15-04:00

You know, these days everybody is offended by something and everything offends somebody. Personally I like the poem (along with Kipling's "If" among my favorites). I think they are a great part of our Cavalry heritage and I continue to use it, offensive or not.

Response by PFC Brian McCloud made Jan 17 at 2020 5:55 PM

2020-01-17T17:55:36-05:00

When I signed up for the Army the list of MOS’s to chose from at MEPS had it listed 19D CAV SCOUT, it didn’t really occur to me at the time this was like the “Indian killing cavalry.” I am an enrolled member of a tribe in northwestern WA state. I did not grow up on a reservation, (urban Indian is the term) but I am Native. Although we (Natives) serve in the US military in greater proportions than any other minority ethnicity, given the relatively small size of our population, I doubt many of you knew many Natives while you served. The entire reality of it is truly a paradox I live w/, serving in the US military (much less as a cavalryman) and knowing what US government did to Native tribes throughout the country. The government perpetuated many forms of genocide, including ordering the wholesale slaughter of tribal members (including women, children, and elders) by the US Cavalry. However you need to rectify that in your own mind, this is something that occurred. “It’s your government but it’s my country” might be the easiest work around I have found for myself. As it is, I owe much of my success in life to what I learned while serving in the military. Apart from the obvious dubious traditions, I am very proud of having been trained and served in the cav. I am not offended by Fiddlers Green and I look forward to seeing my brothers there once again.

Response by CW2 Michael Mullikin made Aug 31 at 2021 4:17 PM

2021-08-31T16:17:38-04:00

As a former tanker, a descendant and inheritor of the cavalry, I find this poem not only admirable but inspirational. Garry Owen!

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2023-04-21T13:46:37-04:00

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