Who is tired of the misuse of the Founding Fathers?

2015-08-27T07:06:18-04:00

Have you noticed how people with opposing political, ideological or religious views can always seem to find a quote from a Founding Father to support their views. An argument always sounds stronger when backed up by a smart guy who died 200 years ago. America was a different place and a different time, yet somehow these fellas support every sort of modern thought. Time travellers they are! Well, at least their quotes travel time. Who is tired of so many people misusing the Founding Fathers for their own purposes? Is this a form of disrespect?

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Aug 27 at 2015 7:19 AM

2015-08-27T07:19:55-04:00

How True Chaplain!

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Aug 27 at 2015 7:47 AM

2015-08-27T07:47:29-04:00

Hell, Thomas Paine didn't think our Revolution went far enough and went to France to take it to the next level.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Aug 27 at 2015 7:50 AM

2015-08-27T07:50:41-04:00

I'm not tired of their being misused. What I'm tired of is people saying that their ideologies are outdated and what they did should be forgotten/erased from history and/or law (think Bill of Rights in particular).

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Aug 27 at 2015 7:56 AM

2015-08-27T07:56:25-04:00

It comes down to politics. These men were apolitical. They did what was right based on their belief. This use of convenience must stop.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2015 8:10 AM

2015-08-27T08:10:12-04:00

When ever I read something from the Freedom From Religion Foundation quotes, it is usually from one of the founding fathers.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2015 8:25 AM

2015-08-27T08:25:44-04:00

Many of their ideologies are timeless, otherwise our country would be outdated already. But yes I am tired of people using the Founding Fathers as a weapon against each other.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Aug 27 at 2015 8:30 AM

2015-08-27T08:30:42-04:00

Keep in mind the Founders and the Framers were People as well as Ideals.

They were "Contradictions wrapped in enigmas."

Look at us. How many contradictory ideas do each of us have? Seriously.

As a personal example. I am opposed to Social medicine. Don't like it. However... There are two HUGE exceptions:

1) Emergency care. If someone is "injured" (like hit by a bus), you get them to a hospital, and you get them fixed. You worry about billing later. If they can't pay, you write it off. Why? Because we're not animals. That's why. Sure that's contrary to my stance on Social Medicine. Yes, I know it. No, I don't care. Yes, it makes me a hypocrite. Yes, I'm willing to live with.

2) VA Health Care. Whoa whoa whoa, Aaron. The VA isn't Social Medicine. The hell it is. By definition it is. I'm cool with it. Came to grips with it a long time ago, because it was a Private Contract Transaction, and this is an Obligation between two Private Parties (one of which is the Federal Government).

So, if I'm allowed to have contradictions, and have them quoted, why wouldn't the Framers & Founders?

It's just a case of whether people are using the quotes in context or not. Whether they are adequately portraying the Philosophy of the person in question. That's the key.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Aug 27 at 2015 9:18 AM

2015-08-27T09:18:25-04:00

What gets me is that some want to say that the country wasn't founded on christian beliefs. It absolutely was. The major reason they left was for religious freedom. They didn't want to be Catholic and wanted to be something other, protestant is the best way I can say it. look at all of the christian faiths we have.

Response by SrA Daniel Hunter made Aug 27 at 2015 9:38 AM

2015-08-27T09:38:54-04:00

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2015 9:58 AM

2015-08-27T09:58:17-04:00

I cringe every time someone uses them for a political statement. And sometimes I have to laugh. Once a "Christian" was telling me about the righteousness of the Founding Fathers and then talked about the bad in the world...including the Free Masons. Bring a Free Mason myself...I asked him if he knew that close to 11 of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were Free Masons. I received a blank stare.

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made Aug 27 at 2015 11:02 AM

2015-08-27T11:02:08-04:00

its interesting how quotes are taken in part, not in whole to look like they said one thing, but they said something else instead.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Aug 27 at 2015 11:03 AM

2015-08-27T11:03:20-04:00

The SCOTUS does it all the time. Just kidding. What I do when something comes up in a disagreement and that happens, I go to the Federalist Papers for intent and discussions. In the more recent issues, e.g., Birthright citizenship, I go to the originators of the amendment or modification to the amendment. Its all about research, rather than opinions. And you all know what they say about opinions.

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made Aug 27 at 2015 11:04 AM

2015-08-27T11:04:35-04:00

Just because it was said on the Internet doesn't make it true. -Abe Lincoln.

Response by SPC Scott Lindquist made Aug 27 at 2015 11:05 AM

2015-08-27T11:05:59-04:00

It was a better place then

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2015 12:04 PM

2015-08-27T12:04:41-04:00

Could it be the new age of politics cannot come up with such prolific information and stances on their own so they reach back to the well thought out common people who stood up for their beliefs? When our country was founded on the beliefs of the people not a "tyrannical" monarchy? Could it mean that the system created 200 years ago would take in consideration the thoughts and beliefs of the populace they represented, and the way the framed our government was well thought out and planned and worded to last?

Politics have become a skewed world of who can piss the furthest with the strongest stream. I find it sad that so many of these "leaders", more accurately deemed officials are out for their own interests, or it seems to be? One would think with the level of "education" many of our politicians have attained they would be able to produce documents that were as strong, well worded, clear as they did 200 years ago?!

We need leaders in our country's management again. People who do things because it is the right thing to do for those that are represented...

Response by SSG Gerhard S. made Aug 27 at 2015 12:27 PM

2015-08-27T12:27:50-04:00

I do not see using the spoken, written, and printed words of our founders as disrespectful. Instead, their words serve as a unmoving Standard of reference regarding the sentiment, intent, and prosecution of our founding. Their words ARE as salient and prescient today, as they were over two centuries ago because they are based on values and principles like Freedom, Limited government, and Justice, which are equally valuable today.
So, instead of having to chase an ever-moving and evolving set of laws, faddish ideas, and interpretation, we possess a set of principles, largely explained by the authors.
You probably won't like this... But Jefferson told us this...,.

"On every question of construction [of the Constitution] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or intended against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed.”
--Jefferson

Response by Maj Bill Smith, Ph.D. made Aug 27 at 2015 12:33 PM

2015-08-27T12:33:40-04:00

And how did he wind up. After living in France for many years, he returned to the US for his last 7 years and being regarded more as seditious, only 6 people attended his funeral in NY City, NY. He was more popular in death than in life.

Response by SGT Jeremiah B. made Aug 27 at 2015 1:36 PM

2015-08-27T13:36:11-04:00

Here's the thing. We don't know what they would think given a chance to examine things today. Hell, I'm not sure many of them could even wrap their heads around how much the world has changed...but assuming they could, we don't really know! We make broad assumptions based on our own personal ideologies and some research, but these guys ran as much of a gamut of ideology as could be expected in their day and age. They were also deeply flawed men as most great ones are.

So yeah, I'm kind of tired of it. Its usually just used as a way to bolster a particular opinion and is terribly anachronistic anyway.

Response by PV2 Glen Lewis made Aug 27 at 2015 1:56 PM

2015-08-27T13:56:11-04:00

What I'm tired of is their being ignored even when the basic content is still applicable today. It's damned sure a form of disrespect not only to them but to the majority of the people today. Common sense is timeless and the Bill of Rights' framework is common sense.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Aug 27 at 2015 2:23 PM

2015-08-27T14:23:04-04:00

There's a name for this practice: Propaganda. Can you pick out which type it is? (I found this chart in another posting on RP and found it interesting)

Response by MAJ Keira Brennan made Aug 27 at 2015 4:47 PM

2015-08-27T16:47:31-04:00

Well Chaplain, the Conservative members of the SCOTUS are said to use "strict construction-ism" and NOT go into interpreting the Constitution beyond what the framers wrote. Justices Rehnquist, Scalia, and Thomas might have rejected the term but clearly they acknowledge not reading "tea leaves" like judicial activist. I have quoted Madison several times here on his written positions towards religion in politics, public life, government and military. I would acknowledge myself a strict constructionist, not re-reading into his very black and white language about the topic. Ironic considering so much else I do is blatantly liberal. Your thoughts?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2015 7:45 PM

2015-08-27T19:45:20-04:00

The words "fed up" come to mind.

Response by SPC George Rudenko made Aug 27 at 2015 11:53 PM

2015-08-27T23:53:22-04:00

Remember, everyone knows the law, their rights, and American history.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 28 at 2015 2:24 PM

2015-08-28T14:24:20-04:00

These men were exceptional examples of their day...not the average. In their own lives, they were called both patriots and traitors...heroes and villains. I'm certain not every veteran of the Continental Army thought Washington was a good man to serve under...and I'm even more certain these men didn't always agree with the sentiments of the people they were attempting to forge into a unified nation.

People want so desperately to prove someone said/didn't say something that supports their argument...anything to avoid addressing the issue itself. Jefferson's foreign policy may have been flawed, Adams may have been "out of touch", Washington may have stolen the first election-None of that alters the fact that these men helped develop one of the most successful democratic republics in history.

Response by SPC Luis Mendez made Aug 29 at 2015 11:18 PM

2015-08-29T23:18:53-04:00

I am!

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Dec 15 at 2015 3:48 PM

2015-12-15T15:48:01-05:00

I will take the genius and unselfish sacrifice of our Founding Fathers OVER the criminal incompetence of the self-serving special interest sell-outs we currently have up in Washington DC.

Response by CPT John M. O'Connor made Dec 22 at 2015 6:24 PM

2015-12-22T18:24:03-05:00

Many of our military have studied history in a serious way. That in itself is impressive and something I feel the civilian world misses.

Response by 1LT Aaron Barr made Jan 15 at 2016 10:40 AM

2016-01-15T10:40:57-05:00

The Founders may not have been time travelers and they most certainly were not infallible but the PRINCIPLES they espoused most certainly are timeless and as applicable today as when they lived.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Jan 22 at 2016 2:50 PM

2016-01-22T14:50:50-05:00

I'm frankly surprised our local lefties aren't complaining about the term "Founding Fathers". The push is to use the term "Founders", so as not to be exclusionary.

Response by CDR Michael Goldschmidt made Jan 23 at 2016 11:43 AM

2016-01-23T11:43:20-05:00

I'm tired of people holding up the Founding Fathers as saints. First of all, which Founding Fathers: the signers of the Declaration of Independence or the Framers of the Constitution? Is that the Constitution before the Bill of Rights or with it included. Many argued against a Bill of Rights. Maybe you mean the authors of the Articles of Confederation? Also, if we're talking Founding Fathers, is that before or after THEY held the reins of power? Is it George Washington as General or as President, enforcing the Whiskey Tax to suppress competition for his own massive distillery? Is it John Adams as committee member on the Declaration-drafting committee or as President signing and enforcing the Sedition Act? Did he or did he not believe in free speech? Did the signers believe that "all men are created equal" or just some men? Yes, all of these men understood history, but understanding it and applying it are two different things, both before having power and after. Even Jefferson didn't REALLY believe in the Constitution, if you judge by his actions. There was no Constitutional authority for his Louisiana Purchase, but he did it anyway.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2017 1:43 AM

2017-07-22T01:43:42-04:00

Yeah I know I am so many misconceptions of our founding fathers this wouldn't happen if our public didn't study more history I think in elementary and intermediate should be mandatory.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2017 7:10 PM

2017-07-22T19:10:00-04:00

Or those who misquote... Sigh... Anyway, I guess we all just need to learn to get a long. In the immortal words of President Abraham Lincoln...

Response by TSgt Kenneth Ellis made Jul 22 at 2017 8:40 PM

2017-07-22T20:40:51-04:00

https://www.prageru.com/courses/history/were-founders-religious

Were the Founders Religious?

What did the Founding Fathers believe about religion? Were they Christians, or just deists? Did they believe in secularism, or did they want Americans to be religious? Joshua Charles, New York Times bestselling author and researcher at the Museum of the Bible, explains.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2017 3:17 PM

2017-07-24T15:17:25-04:00

How would using their own words be disrespectful? I get tired of people acting like they were the only people who formed this country. I refer to the people who created America as the Founders because there were others such as blacks, slaves, women, etc who played parts in the creation of this country and got overlooked in history.

Response by Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2017 7:59 PM

2017-07-24T19:59:22-04:00

This question is hard to answer because like you said, these people lived over 200 years ago. Regardless if its disrespectful or not EVERYBODY does it. Believers and non believers, republicans and democrats alike. Thank you for posting.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2019 10:40 AM

2019-11-07T10:40:06-05:00

It's the way we teach. Our education system is nothing more than "if you have an idea, look up someone who had that idea before you and then it must be valid, ignore anything that disproves your point and just find another that proves it, and you can even use just the part that supports your argument, not the rest of it"
It's how our schooling works, justice system, MEDIA, everything.
Theres the idea that the founding fathers are infallible, but people want to read into what they said like an 8th grade reading assignment. We cant read into anything because that's an assumption, whether it's the Bill of Rights, the Bible, or a law, reading into it cannot be done unless the writer is there to clarify what they actually meant. Since they're long gone we have to take it at face value, but humans really really do not like ideas that make them question their own values and ideas and especially beliefs, so they fight, and twist, and play mental gymnastics to tweak something to be completely different from its initial intent.