Who thinks there is such a thing as toxic follwership?

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 20:12:37 -0500

Too often I hear about "toxic leadership," but I think there is something to be said about those follower that fight a leader's ability to coach, teach, and mentor. When 80% of our young leaders think they are the top 10%. Who thinks there is such a thing as toxic follower-ship?

Response by LTC Yinon Weiss made Jan 24 at 2016 8:21 PM

LTC Yinon Weiss — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 20:21:22 -0500

Interesting question. I think that toxic leadership, or toxic culture in general, can create toxic "followership". When people don't have confidence in their institution or their leadership, then if new leaders come in and try to help, followers may not respond in ideal ways because there is simply no trust. In this chicken and egg scenario, I think it starts with toxic leadership creating the problems though. In other words, toxic leadership creates a terrible climate, and if prolonged, then even good leaders who come in later can face lingering challenges created by past leaders.

On the issue of 80% thinking that they are in the top 10%, that may be a societal issue, but the military hasn't been helping itself by giving everybody top ratings. The new rater profile NCOER/OER system should help that.

Response by SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL made Jan 24 at 2016 8:23 PM

SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 20:23:34 -0500

COL Private RallyPoint Member great topic, your absolutely right! If your part of the problem, find a solution to make things better! " Lead to train, train to lead or get the heck out the way."

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2016 8:23 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 20:23:45 -0500

I hear the term "toxic" throw around a lot. I understand it is founded in doctrine, but do not think it is used correctly by the majority. We, as leaders, owe our service members the purpose, direction, and motivation to complete our mission IAW Commander's intent. Those that think they are owed more are lacking perspective and exhibiting that entitlement attitude. I believe these are the toxic followers in which you refer. I probably don't see it as often as some, but do believe it's out there.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2016 8:26 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 20:26:05 -0500

The army and military is full of problem identifiers. What we need more of is problem solvers.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jan 24 at 2016 8:29 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 20:29:29 -0500

Absolutely. Leadership and Followership go hand in hand.

It's great to believe that "Heroic Leadership" is the cure of all our ails, but 1 man CANNOT change 1000. Therefore, when we do all these "command environment surveys" etc, we are really determining "toxic followership" as well as "leadership."

Response by PO1 John Miller made Jan 24 at 2016 8:38 PM

PO1 John Miller — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 20:38:11 -0500

Toxic leadership and follower-ship often go hand in hand! In other words, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jan 24 at 2016 10:06 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 22:06:23 -0500

We need good followers and good leaders. Its not a perfect system.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2016 11:08 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 11:08:48 -0500

One thing that I have observed is that problems tend to travel in packs. That is, when there is one EO complaint, there are several. When there is one IG complaint, there are several.
This indicates both a systemic problem as the leadership is not engaged on addressing and resolving the issues and a systemic response, as the SPC mafia talks among themselves and the solutions arrived at are "go to legal", or IG, or Open Door, or Congressional, or what have you.
I think it is important to realize that we are all part of the team, and all need to be part of the solution. Maybe 1SG Healy doesn't have all of the answers. Maybe you think I'm all wet and I don't know what I'm talking about. OK troop. What is your suggestion?
Because if we can agree on the problem's existence, we should be able to put our collective and individual minds to work on solving it. This is what teams do. This is what good units do.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2016 1:15 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 13:15:21 -0500

While their is toxic followership, sometimes it takes the toxic followership to create the numbers to change a truly toxic environment. However, if not in a truly toxic environment if myself as a leader do not think I am not in the top 10% than it better made clear to me why so I can make damn sure I get there. If I do not think it I won't be it and if I'm not why am I not? If my immediate leadership is telling me I'm not in the top 10% but not telling me why or how to get there this is a failure of leadership. Additionally, how can I tell my subordinates how to improve on what their leadership's leadership is looking at, which leads to resentment and toxic follower-ship. The shop NCOIC is being told they are not in the top 10% but not being counseled on why or how to improve and they spread that down the ranks. Which goes full circle to the question posed by SSG Devin Cables on What are some of the issues you see with leadership in today's military.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made Jan 25 at 2016 1:23 PM

Capt Mark Strobl — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 13:23:09 -0500

COL Private RallyPoint Member - Agreed: There is such a thing as "toxic followership." We've all seen/heard of the results of toxic leadership ("bad" commands/"bad" ships, etc.). That 80% to which you referred need to be addressed with honest, direct, and accurate dialog. The toxic followership can only be changed --but, only with good leadership that demonstrates both compassion and willingness to redirect the climate. The character of followership merely reflects that of its leadership.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2016 4:57 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 16:57:38 -0500

As many great minds have already said Toxic Leadership spawns Toxic Followership. I absolutely can't stand the phrase "don't come to me with problems, come to me with solutions" I think this is a key phrase in the Toxic Leadership handbook. The individual wouldn't be coming to you if they had a solution. They would simple fix it. What if the doctor or lawyer gave you that answer? Would you still have faith and trust in their abilities? I understand you have a few that complain about everything and you want to tell them something but this phrase doesn't solve your problem it makes it worse.

Response by SSG Oliver Mathews made Jan 26 at 2016 6:22 AM

SSG Oliver Mathews — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 06:22:54 -0500

Sir, the simple answer is yes. Some of it is due to Soldiers attitudes as they enter the Army, some of its due the change of climate in the Military's leadership, and i believe that some of it is due to a change to a soldiers first year in the Army.

And it spawns from lack of discipline across the ranks. A lack of counseling and development of Junior NCOs, and an overall lack of enforcement of standards at all Levels. Lazy leadership creates distention and lack of respect.

When the standards fall subordinates will lose bearing. If you dont maintain a respectable stature and enforce standards Service Members at all levels will begin to become Toxic. And when that service member moves to a different command and gets hemmed up for acting like a fool, his first responce will be "It was ok in my last Unit"...

Maintain the Standards... Enforce the Standards... Use the tools that that the Military has provided, and Hold all levels accountable. If I as a Shift leader fail to keep my soldiers Physically Fit. It should be reflected on my NCOER and i should be counselled... If i continue to fail my rank should be put on the chopping block for failure to perform my duties at the designated level.

Response by 1stSgt Eugene Harless made Apr 13 at 2016 10:30 PM

1stSgt Eugene Harless — Wed, 13 Apr 2016 22:30:59 -0400

They are Toxic Leaders as well, just at a lower level.