Who writes the SMA's NCOER?

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Oct 2016 14:50:49 -0400

SMA who writes his NCOER?

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Oct 9 at 2016 3:45 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Sun, 09 Oct 2016 15:45:42 -0400

Funny, the higher you go in either ENL or OFF ranks, the likelihood of you providing a draft increases. Some reporting seniors say it's to get the SM into the mode of writing better although I believe it's a sign of senior laziness. I always had my CoC do drafts and reviews at the correct level. We also had a murder board prior so the drafters knew if they were writing a lower, middle, or upper report, it's what the bosses wanted. Now when you have the most rarefied types like the SMA, then stellar paper is what keeps him/her in the hunt for the JCS job. However if the service senior ENL prefers to retire after that, the paper is still great but word gets up to not consider further. I'd hope the rater actually writes it because that's what is deserved. I tended to hear more about SMs who had to write their own than I've actually seen. A stack of Evals from the same JO tended to have similar flaws which had to be sorted. I don't recall ever seeing a stack with varied writing styles. Of course I'm sure it does happen.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2016 4:19 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Oct 2016 16:19:11 -0400

Good question.

But, I suspect it is easy to write.

Performs like God - over.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Oct 9 at 2016 4:29 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Sun, 09 Oct 2016 16:29:51 -0400

Wild guess would be the Chief of Staff Army as the signatory (Senior Rater or Reviewer) with the DCOS as either the Rater or the Review.

The SMA is the Senior Enlisted Advisor (Army). As such he is the CSM to the CO (Army). The scale is just different.

Therefore, who writes ANY CSM's NCOER? Everything should parallel the same, with minor administrative adjustments due to billet.

But when it really boils down to it, it's not like his NCOER "means" anything anymore. That is a terminal position. He is either going to retire from it with a "slim" chance of becoming SEA of JCOS (unlikely). If the NCOER was not favorable, he would be removed instantly.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2016 6:39 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Oct 2016 18:39:27 -0400

His rating chain probably follows this: Rater is Deputy Chie of Staff and the Senior Rater is the Chief of Staff. He won't need a reviewer as both rater and senior rater are above a CPT. But he certainly should at least be writing his NCOER Support Form.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2016 9:51 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Oct 2016 21:51:36 -0400

I'm not sure this is correct, and I can't even remember where I heard it decades ago, but somewhere along the line I recall reading that the SMA doesn't get an NCOER at all. What is the point? To see if he has potential for higher CSM positions? He's at the top. I seem to recall that it may apply to CSMs for commands like CENTCOM, PACOM, etc.

As I said, I don't know if it's true, but it sort of makes sense to me.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2016 3:34 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Oct 2016 03:34:57 -0400

I asked this question of SMA Tilley when he did a town hall at Fort Carson in 2003 and his reply was: (Paraphrasing) Once you are in 3 Star or higher nominative CSM position you no longer receive NCOERS. I did try to find it in the regulations but never did. But then again I haven't really thought about it since 2003. Maybe when I get selected for that level of responsibility I will post the regulation on RP.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 11 at 2016 9:37 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Oct 2016 21:37:21 -0400

The Chief of Staff is the Rater.
He is also the Sr Rater.

One would wonder at what would be written about ability to perform in positions of greater responsibility.

Response by CSM Clifford Fargason made Oct 12 at 2016 7:37 AM

CSM Clifford Fargason — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 07:37:55 -0400

The SMA works for the Chief of Staff, not the DCOS. CSMs are rated by the commander, not the deputy.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2016 8:23 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 08:23:56 -0400

Army Chief of Staff

Response by CW4 Leonard White made Oct 12 at 2016 8:49 AM

CW4 Leonard White — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 08:49:21 -0400

The SMA doesn't receive an NCOER. I knew SMA Tilley (first met him when I was a brand new WO1 assigned to the G-2 section of 1st AD and he was the Division CSM, he wanted know why I became a WO after I reached SFC at such an early stage of my career). At that level, NCOERs are moot. The NCOER is designed primarily to judge your polential for increase responsibility (and to be the ultimate counseling tool on your performance). The SMA doesn't need that. He's not going any higher and if he need a NCOER to guide him in doing his job there's something very wrong with the system of selecting SMAs

Response by SFC Kim Armstrong made Oct 12 at 2016 9:25 AM

SFC Kim Armstrong — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 09:25:22 -0400

The Battalion Commander is the rater and brigade Commander is the senior rater

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2016 9:30 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 09:30:23 -0400

Good question. I have seen CSM's write SMA's before.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Oct 12 at 2016 9:38 AM

SGT Dave Tracy — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 09:38:24 -0400

Chuck Norris.

Response by SFC Chris Crossley made Oct 12 at 2016 10:02 AM

SFC Chris Crossley — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 10:02:29 -0400

According to AR 623-3, Para 1-7 b. b. Evaluate the performance and potential of noncommissioned officers (NCOs), sergeant (SGT) through command sergeant major (CSM) in peacetime and wartime. it could be inferred that the SMA is not a CSM and therefore the regulation is not applicable to that position. Additionally, there is no mention of the SMA in the regulation.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2016 10:11 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 10:11:18 -0400

CSA is supposed to... I worked as the enlisted aide for a few generals, they are your rater, senior rater and reviewer (they actually sign your NCOER three times) I don't think he has or needs an NCOER. ITs not like he's going to be in a position of greater responsibility and if he's not performing to standard, the CSA will ask him, behind closed doors, to retire. As far as counseling, I'm pretty sure he privately talks to the CSA every day -or more.

Response by SSG Billy Rey made Oct 12 at 2016 11:36 AM

SSG Billy Rey — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 11:36:13 -0400

An NCOERs are used to evaluate overal performance for promoting and selection for schools. There is no higher enlisted position, they have attended every NCOPD Academy. The question should be, Does the SMA get an NCOER? If they do, why?

Response by SPC Wanda Vergara-Yates made Oct 12 at 2016 2:15 PM

SPC Wanda Vergara-Yates — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 14:15:28 -0400

If anyone, I would think it would be his immediate supervisor/commanding general. However, it would not surprise me to see it done through a series of other people that actually write/rate and then the CG says yeah or nay to what they say. I say this not as one with experience handling NCOER's, but as a clerk that handled a variety of other actions requiring a general's personal attention. They even delegate a stand-in to do all the paperwork for family ID cards and such so that they pop in at the very end and sign off. Awards were processed the same way with the CG being the last person involved before the final touch is added. Experience from Ft Leavenworth ID, V Corps Personnel and Ft Huachuca ID/Records processing over a total 8 year period. Pretty consistent. Why would NCOERs be any different, if they do them?

If it has to be an enlisted, then seems to me it would have to be a group of people viewing results of interaction, documented by the people SGM/CSM works with - and drafted about like an award recommendation would have to be done - with input from those around the person. Again, this is not from first - hand knowledge, but from deductive reasoning.

Response by SPC Wanda Vergara-Yates made Oct 12 at 2016 2:23 PM

SPC Wanda Vergara-Yates — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 14:23:10 -0400

DUH SMA....NVM. That would have to be a group evaluation drawn from witness accounts of those who work with him. A board would have to oversee it. No one person could do it because it would not come out fairly.

Response by SFC John Hill made Oct 12 at 2016 5:45 PM

SFC John Hill — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 17:45:03 -0400

AR 623–3 Evaluation Reporting System para 3-2b(3). Reports are optional for SGMs serving in three- and four-star nominative positions, except for “Relief-for-Cause” reports.

Response by SSG Ken Gilder made Oct 12 at 2016 6:17 PM

SSG Ken Gilder — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 18:17:11 -0400

I would venture a SWAG (Scientific Wild-Ass Guess) that it would be written by his/her immediate supervisor, which, in this case, would be the Deputy Army Chief of Staff, It would be endorsed by the Army Chief of Staff, and reviewed by the Army secretary.

I could be wrong, but that progression makes the most sense to me.

Response by SGT Tim Fridley made Oct 12 at 2016 10:27 PM

SGT Tim Fridley — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 22:27:29 -0400

I don't think it matters probably doesn't get on you just can't advance any higher then SMA

Response by CSM Louis Rothenstein made Oct 13 at 2016 9:06 AM

CSM Louis Rothenstein — Thu, 13 Oct 2016 09:06:30 -0400

I do not know currently. I knew the 2nd SMA pretty well. George W. Dunaway. Talking one day, we discussed Gen Westmoreland. The SMA did not recall seeing any EER or final EER but if there was one, someone other than the General wrote it as both were of the opinion that what possible use would it have? Of course this was 1970-72. The SMA said that if the General was not pleased with his performance, he would have just fired him. Of course he wasn't fired and restored confidence in the program.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2016 1:13 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Oct 2016 13:13:34 -0400

if hes the only one being rated then whats the point of doing an NCOER ? just seems pointless.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Jul 10 at 2017 8:00 PM

SSG Trevor S. — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 20:00:32 -0400

I was going to say Chuck Norris, but someone beat me to it.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Jul 10 at 2017 8:10 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 20:10:14 -0400

"SMA who writes his NCOER?"
No one, unless the SMA is relieved for cause, the SMA requests one, or the "rater" wants to give him one.
AR623-3, para 3-2, b, (3)
"(3) All NCOs in the grades of SGT through SGM. Reports are optional for SGMs serving in three- and four-star nominative positions, except for “Relief-for-Cause” reports. When SGMs serving in three- and four-star nominative positions are reassigned to other duties and no other report has been submitted, that time will be considered nonrated and will appear on the next report submitted upon reassignment for those duties"
http://www.apd.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/r623_3.pdf

r623_3.pdf

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Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2017 7:23 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Jul 2017 19:23:53 -0400

I do.

Response by MSG Johnathan Mathes made Jul 14 at 2017 3:17 AM

MSG Johnathan Mathes — Fri, 14 Jul 2017 03:17:35 -0400

Here's a thought folks ... after being the SMA do you really think he cares about a NCOER? Or who signs it.... hell no he is going to retire ... he isn't going back down to the sgm pool that's for sure...