Why are cavalry guidons/flags red and white?

2017-02-16T10:54:28-05:00

I've always wondered this. What is the history and tradition behind having a red and white, swallow-tailed guidon?

UPDATE: A member said it is because the US Cavalry traces it's linage to European Dragoons and Dragoons are often associated with red and white. This makes a lot of sense. So the next question is why are Dragoons red and white?

Response by SFC George Smith made Feb 16 at 2017 10:57 AM

2017-02-16T10:57:07-05:00

going back to Cav. troops of the 1800s...

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2017 11:11 AM

2017-02-16T11:11:53-05:00

Here is why:

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/us%5Ecav.html

Army - Cavalry Guidons (U.S.)

Response by SPC Craig Abram made Feb 16 at 2017 11:19 AM

2017-02-16T11:19:20-05:00

http://www.cavhooah.com/info/sections/guidons/

If You Aint Cav......Hooaah

Guidons | Cavhooah

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Feb 16 at 2017 11:41 AM

2017-02-16T11:41:28-05:00

SSG Carlos Madden & MSG Private RallyPoint Member - I just read through the link that SPC Craig Abram shared. Looks like the reason "why" comes down to simply "Because that is how it started". In 1834, the Army authorized a red over white guidon for the "Regiment of Dragoons", which according to that site is the 1st Cavalry. Since then it just carried over to other cav units.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2017 11:57 AM

2017-02-16T11:57:37-05:00

What I really want to know is if this guy in the picture could bring his horse into theater, why can't I bring a dog?

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Feb 16 at 2017 2:12 PM

2017-02-16T14:12:52-05:00

Because those colors catch the eye?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2017 2:38 PM

2017-02-16T14:38:05-05:00

At one time the color for Infantry was white, and Mounted Infantry (aka Dragoons) used red and white. Dragoons eventually became synonymous with Cavalry, and Cavalry units maintained the red and white guidon of the Dragoons even when their primary color changed to Yellow. I suspect it was an effort to keep some of the Dragoon heritage and also maintain some difference between Cavalry and Armor units.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2017 8:22 PM

2017-02-16T20:22:05-05:00

I seem to recall the color combination made it easily identifiable in the smoky conditions on the battlefields in the days of black powder. Drab/darker colors tended to blend with the fog of way. The red and white was visible, and necessary due to the mobility of the Cav, whereas other units were slower moving. It helped to prevent blue on blue. I can't remember where I learned this though. It does make sense.

Response by SGT Scott Henderson made Feb 17 at 2017 9:10 AM

2017-02-17T09:10:36-05:00

Because "Dragoon" came from"Dragon"; dragons breathe fire (red) and scare the shit out of their enemies (turn them WHITE). Makes perfect sense to me.

Response by SFC Eric Cooper made Feb 17 at 2017 6:28 PM

2017-02-17T18:28:58-05:00

The red represents blood before for surrender so red over white. Air Cav that my b.s

Response by SFC Robert Maddigan made Feb 17 at 2017 7:58 PM

2017-02-17T19:58:33-05:00

The Red and White color scheme go back to the Knights Templar. White represents purity and red the blood of Jesus. Knights Templar were also mounted and was the predated Dragoos

Response by SSG Martin Reyna made Feb 18 at 2017 8:56 AM

2017-02-18T08:56:38-05:00

Blood before surrender is what is commonly known in the Cavalry.

Response by SGT James Young made Feb 18 at 2017 3:29 PM

2017-02-18T15:29:47-05:00

I learned something new today

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2017 4:55 PM

2017-02-18T16:55:05-05:00

Bloood before surrender. Because we're hard charging, proud mother fuckers who don't take shit from anyone.

Response by SGT Luke Brock made Feb 20 at 2017 11:26 AM

2017-02-20T11:26:09-05:00

Red over white means death before surrender

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2017 4:42 PM

2017-02-21T16:42:55-05:00

Infantry = Blue. Cav = Red.

Here is why, from the perspective of a young and cocky Grunt: Blue shows blood, when seeping through. Infantry never gets hit, so we do not bleed. So we wear the more flashy color. Cav knows that they are not as skilled as Grunts, so they want to look like they can keep up. so they wear red so as not to show their blood and thereby try to be as intimidating as their friendly neighborhood ground-pounders. It all comes down to this: Cav wants to be Infantry, so they try to hide their weakness.

In all seriousness though; Cavalry is the Colonial answer to the English Dragoons, this is true. What many do not know is that English "red coats," or Infantry wore a darker shade of red and an off-white pantaloons. Dragoons (mounted combatants) wore a brighter red coat and brilliant-white pants so that they could be better identified on the battlefield through the smoke and haze of the musket and cannon fire. This helped not only the commanders control their forces, but also allowed the lightmen to rally around their symbols of power on the field. Because The Dragoons always had the high ground (being mounted above the regular foot soldiers), they were seen as the powerhouse of Colonial battlefields.

Carrying on with tradition, Cavalry kept the red and white of the English Dragoon fighters, because they were the model and predecessor of the modern Cavalry.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2017 8:29 PM

2017-03-09T20:29:23-05:00

Red above white...death before/above surrender

Response by Andrzej Iwuć made May 2 at 2017 6:33 AM

2017-05-02T06:33:22-04:00

Short answer: Polish (lance) cavalry traditions adopted by most European cavalry units especially after the napoleonic wars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uhlan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_hussars

Uhlan - Wikipedia

Uhlans (in Polish: "Ułan"; in Russian: Уланы; "Ulan" in German) were Polish light cavalry armed with lances, sabres and pistols. The title was later used by lancer regiments in the Russian, Prussian, and Austrian armies.[a]

Response by SFC Dave Beran made May 2 at 2017 10:17 AM

2017-05-02T10:17:11-04:00

So to throw a wrench in the gears. Why then is 1st Cav for instance. Yellow. As for the reason it supposedly goes back to the Dragoons, but many thru the years have also used Yellow.

Response by CPT L Caldwell made May 24 at 2017 9:33 PM

2017-05-24T21:33:19-04:00

From the Polish dragoons of Napoleons army

Response by SGT Derek Wynne made Jun 8 at 2017 3:24 AM

2017-06-08T03:24:01-04:00

As a matter of fact if you look at India's Cavalry unit which is the only Cavalry unit to actively use horses they also are red and white but the history behind it I have yet to look. I would just Google that shit

Response by SSG Tim Ingle made Jul 5 at 2017 4:03 PM

2017-07-05T16:03:08-04:00

So here is some more colors to throw at you. The 2nd Regiment of Dragoons ,( 2ND Dragoon/ 2ND ACR/ 2ND CR official color is Orange). Look at the Regimental flag. You will miss that question on your promotion board.

Response by SGT Joseph Gunderson made Jul 5 at 2017 7:49 PM

2017-07-05T19:49:27-04:00

Death before dishonor. The idea that the cavalry would rather die before surrendering to the enemy.

Response by CSM David Porterfield made Jul 5 at 2017 8:21 PM

2017-07-05T20:21:28-04:00

Dragons are mounted Infantry which are trained to fight mounted and dismounted. White used to be the color for Infantry so that might explain the white.

Response by CPT Christopher Bump made Jul 6 at 2017 10:04 AM

2017-07-06T10:04:18-04:00

That's not accurate. Only British dragoons wore red and white, and the did not carry colors like this. This seems to most closely match the red and shire pennants that were on the lance of virtually every lancer unit of the various 19th century European armies.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Jul 6 at 2017 10:11 AM

2017-07-06T10:11:14-04:00

Red and White is for Calvary.
The reason the Army decided to separate the into two colors was because it knew the rest of the military would make fun of them if it was pink. Calm down that was just an attempt at a joke.
I think, and do not quote me, was for better visibility when guidons served a true purpose. Cavalry units would be moving across the field faster than other unit and would be more likely to detach smaller units from the main body.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Jul 6 at 2017 1:16 PM

2017-07-06T13:16:20-04:00

More noticeable from the rear of the column.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2017 2:51 PM

2017-07-06T14:51:56-04:00

Gentlemen,
As someone who was on location at FOB Clark, Afghanistan 2013 when this picture was taken. Believe me when I say, it is not photo shopped. The photo was taken after the traditional Cavalry charge to close out the casing of 1-61 CAV ' s colors and Squadron formation. The horse was brought on to the FOB and was used for the charge. A local farmer brought 2. But the other was......non cooperative. The gentlemen on the horse was CPT Woodard and believe it or not he was an engineer. But he was the only one brought up around horses who could control it.

Response by PO1 Felix Rivera made Jul 6 at 2017 8:06 PM

2017-07-06T20:06:31-04:00

Traditionally, the carrying of a Guidon, Color, or Standard remained the exclusive privilege of those who fought face to face with the enemy, namely the Cavalry and the Infantry. Originally they were battle flags, carried by the headquarters staff to show the position of the King, Lord, General or unit commander. For that reason they were always cut with a swallow tail design so that they would flutter better in the breeze, which actually made it easier for Troopers to recognize. It is a tradition that has been followed by many countries with mounted units. Hence the color scheme.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2017 9:31 PM

2017-07-06T21:31:49-04:00

My old unit, Sniper Section C Co. 1-61

Response by Sgt Joe Stefanec made Jul 7 at 2017 9:38 AM

2017-07-07T09:38:43-04:00

Who is the father of the US Calvary ?
And that persons country of origin is the same color as the the Calvary flag. Now it maybe a coincidence but it would be a true sign of loyalty and respect to a General who laid down his life for this country.

Semper Fi

Response by MAJ Glenn Lasater made Jul 7 at 2017 10:27 AM

2017-07-07T10:27:06-04:00

Red-blood, white-surrender; red over white is blood before surrender.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 7 at 2017 4:56 PM

2017-07-07T16:56:56-04:00

Oh dear God... Heels down, sit deep, and most importantly GET OF THE HORSES FACE!!! SMH... Cav my ass.

Response by SFC Michael Peterson made Jul 7 at 2017 5:35 PM

2017-07-07T17:35:47-04:00

As an 11C who was in three different Cavalry units and, who proudly earned the nickname "The Anti-CAV", I have some derogatory comments. However, I'll refrain.

Response by PFC Charles Sanders made Jul 7 at 2017 5:40 PM

2017-07-07T17:40:52-04:00

I know the signal flags were/are red/white for visibility purposes. I'm assuming these guidons are red and white for similar reasons.

Response by 1SG Bill Ski made Jul 7 at 2017 9:41 PM

2017-07-07T21:41:38-04:00

Because blue was already taken by real men.
Why is the sky blue?
Because God loves the Infantry!

Response by SFC David Tyner made Jul 8 at 2017 10:17 AM

2017-07-08T10:17:12-04:00

I thought it was because that way signal flags are the same color?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 8 at 2017 11:02 AM

2017-07-08T11:02:35-04:00

I thougt is was so when the battle gets to hot. They could cut the red offf and surrender.

Response by LtCol Joe Waldron made Jul 8 at 2017 11:09 AM

2017-07-08T11:09:35-04:00

There's a great scene in They Came to Cordura, of a cavalry regiment on line, going into battle in Mexico in 1916. Note before they cross the line of departure, while formed on line. the officers and guide-on bearers turn and march to the center, then approach the commander for final instructions. This is the origin of the command, "Officers, center, march" in military parades. And the guide-on bearer was there to ensure HE heard the orders, too, as once the action commenced, the troops followed the guide-on.

Response by SP5 Jim Ford made Jul 8 at 2017 12:15 PM

2017-07-08T12:15:10-04:00

Polish heavy Cavalry dominated European battlefields in the 1500-1600s and their traditional colors were red and white. This may explain the tradition.

Response by SGT Victoria Belbusti made Jul 8 at 2017 8:55 PM

2017-07-08T20:55:55-04:00

Dragoons!!!! Tojour Prets!

Response by PFC Jon Oelkers made Jul 9 at 2017 8:22 AM

2017-07-09T08:22:25-04:00

Dragoons were typically red green and black

Response by PFC Jon Oelkers made Jul 9 at 2017 8:25 AM

2017-07-09T08:25:32-04:00

As I were . they had 3 different uniforms . 1. Red , black, green
2. Blue, red and white , and 3. Red , yellow , and white

Response by Cpl Roman Makuch made Jul 9 at 2017 11:26 AM

2017-07-09T11:26:22-04:00

They were Polish immigrants?

Response by SGT Ike Shumate made Jul 9 at 2017 3:10 PM

2017-07-09T15:10:54-04:00

Horses were actually used in theater in I believe 2003

Response by PVT Mark Zehner made Jul 9 at 2017 3:35 PM

2017-07-09T15:35:19-04:00

Red for blood! Fight never surrender!

Response by SSG William Neill made Jul 9 at 2017 6:12 PM

2017-07-09T18:12:19-04:00

A little movie history for you . In the late 50's, i think it was 57, John Wayne and Bill Holden made a movie called the "Horse Soldiers" . Was based on the Union calvary raid on Newton station . The Cav red and white guide on's were quite visible in the movie ! For more history google up the raid on Newton station . Another good calvary raid is Mag. Gen.William Stoneman's raid . The famous song by the Band "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down" is based on the raid .

Response by SPC Jason Edwards made Jul 10 at 2017 6:53 AM

2017-07-10T06:53:04-04:00

As a former cav scout, we were taught red over white was to stand for "death before dishonor". Take death over raising a white flag of surrender.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 10 at 2017 8:22 AM

2017-07-10T08:22:23-04:00

Death before Dishonor

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 10 at 2017 10:07 AM

2017-07-10T10:07:22-04:00

Some of my research has shown that the Red & White is indeed linked back to the time of the Dragoons. However not a Field banner to denote the Leader or a signal flag, Cavalry goes back many centuries and a common task for the early Dragoon or Lancer was to police the battle field as well after the battle. Many Guidons or Cavalry flags were white in nature ( easiest color to have back in the day ) and the flags were attached to the lances of those charged with dispatching wounded enemy on the battle field. Thus the top of the lance flag of white, would be soaked in the red blood of battle and the color stuck through out the years for the advancement of the Cavalry.

Response by CPL Peter King made Jul 10 at 2017 12:30 PM

2017-07-10T12:30:48-04:00

I was a Dragoon (5th Royal Innisikilling Dragoon Guards) and I can't think of the "red and white" association with any Dragoons. The light units were Hussars or Lancers, heavy units were Dragoon Guards

Response by TSgt Robert Danley made Jul 10 at 2017 4:50 PM

2017-07-10T16:50:37-04:00

BECAUSE THEY AREN'T INFANTRY BLUE!!!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 10 at 2017 9:39 PM

2017-07-10T21:39:54-04:00

Dragoons mskes sense to me. During my first assignment in Germany, I was in 1-1 CAV...a regiment of dragoons. Not sure exactly what dragoons are, but I was very proud to be in the squadron.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 11 at 2017 2:36 AM

2017-07-11T02:36:26-04:00

I miss being in a CAV Unit. Something about wearing the Stetson and Spurs felt so good lol.

Response by 1stSgt Daniel Johnson made Jul 11 at 2017 9:36 AM

2017-07-11T09:36:09-04:00

I think it has a lot to do with Command trying to keep track of the troops during the confusion of battle.

Response by SPC Wayne Burtt made Jul 11 at 2017 1:03 PM

2017-07-11T13:03:48-04:00

2nd Squadron 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment station at Bad Kissingen, West Germany from 1978 to 1981

Response by SGT Warren Roach made Jul 11 at 2017 3:48 PM

2017-07-11T15:48:59-04:00

A Dragoons are Cavalry that will dismount and fight if need be.

Response by MAJ Craig Gilkison made Jul 13 at 2017 7:43 PM

2017-07-13T19:43:28-04:00

I don't know about the colors but Cav and Dragoons are quite different. I'm going back to the 1980's here. My 11th ACR Cav in Fulda GE had one mission, 3rd AD in Gelnhausen a different one. Traditionally Cavalry fights from the saddle, dragoons are Infantry that ride into battle and dismount.
BTW "If you ain't CAV, you ain't...."
Just joking, all soldiers are valuable.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 15 at 2017 2:51 PM

2017-07-15T14:51:36-04:00

Coropal

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 15 at 2017 2:52 PM

2017-07-15T14:52:03-04:00

CPL

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 16 at 2017 9:10 PM

2017-07-16T21:10:59-04:00

It's our lineage to King and Queen of Battle. White is the traditional color of the Infantry of which we all belong and Red is for the Field Artillery... That's my official Hooah answer of the day.

Response by SPC Kent Wise made Jul 17 at 2017 7:06 PM

2017-07-17T19:06:01-04:00

Blood before surrender is what I always heard as well.

Response by SSG Charles Scott made Jul 17 at 2017 10:22 PM

2017-07-17T22:22:32-04:00

He may be Cav but he doesn't know how to saddle a horse

Response by SGT Gary Tipton made Jul 17 at 2017 11:51 PM

2017-07-17T23:51:31-04:00

Blood before Surrender. We are here to serve...serve we will

Response by SFC John Jett made Aug 25 at 2017 9:25 AM

2017-08-25T09:25:26-04:00

I have heard two different versions. The first is; it represent cooperation between the US Cavalry and Indian Scouts. The other is something about "Blood Over Virtue" or something like that.

Response by Cpl John Sanheim made Jul 2 at 2018 12:27 AM

2018-07-02T00:27:15-04:00

Actually the red over white swallow tail pennants predate the reasons you state - they were originally carried by lancers in the 16th Century - later became the lancer pennants in many Napoleonic armies - almost always (however there were some exceptions) RED over WHITE - even the Polish lancers whose national colors were white over red - bore the RED over WHITE pennants. Somewhere along the line of history these pennants became guidons adapted by the MOUNTED TROOPS (cavalry and light artillery) . During the American Civil War the guidons were replaced - (1862 regs) due to the fact that they resembled the Confederate fist national colors (stars and bars, red-white-red) and replaced by Stars and stripes in swallow tail design. Sometime after the war red over withe came into use again - not to say that many units never discarded the red and white guidons in the first place but like many Civil War flags they were often carried until in total tatters . . .

Response by Mirek W made Jul 20 at 2018 3:27 AM

2018-07-20T03:27:46-04:00

Dragoons were created after Polish horseman known as Ułani. White and red are Polish national symbols and colors on their lances were usually reversed. Try this link and read it at least till 19th century Napoleonic wars and then read that link about dragoons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uhlan

Uhlan - Wikipedia

Uhlans (/ˈuːlɑːn, ˈjuːlən/; Polish: Ułan; German: Ulan) were Polish light cavalry armed with lances, sabres and pistols. The Polish Uhlans became the model for many general-purpose cavalry units throughout Europe in the early 19th century as use of traditional heavy cavalry declined. The title was later used by lancer regiments in the Russian, Prussian, and Austrian armies.[a]

Response by PFC Elijah Rose made Aug 21 at 2018 10:39 PM

2018-08-21T22:39:48-04:00

Because the army is loaded with anachronisms, that's why. Flags were used for signaling and organization and so each unit had easily identifiable flag, but that was in the days of horse and musket.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 14 at 2018 10:36 PM

2018-10-14T22:36:34-04:00

Casimir Pulaski of Poland is the Father of the American Cavalry. He volunteered and gave his life in the American Revolution.

Response by Cpl John Sanheim made Aug 18 at 2019 9:16 PM

2019-08-18T21:16:09-04:00

The guidons or rather red and white swallow-tailed pennants were carried long before dragoons - they were carried by lancers in 17th century Europe I believe . . . They probably evolved from lances carried by knights in the middle ages and the lances had all manner of cloth pennants, from livery and heraldic colors to ladies scarfs etc.

Response by CSM Clifford Fargason made Apr 27 at 2022 11:32 PM

2022-04-27T23:32:11-04:00

The US had Dragoons off and on from the Revolutionary War to 1821 when mounted troops were disbanded. In 1832 the Mounted Ranger Battalion was stood up, and in 1833 the Ranger Battalion went away and the US Regiment of Dragoons was stood up. Their uniform coat was dark blue, pants were sky blue and piping was yellow. Infantry at the time wore coat and pants of sky blue with white piping. Enlisted Dragoons wore a yellow stripe on their pants, Sergeants wore two stripes. Infantry enlisted got a pant stripe as a sergeant. Dragoon companies were authorized a guidon of red and white, with U.S. in white and company letter in red, no other branches had guidons. A second regiment of Dragoons was established in 1836. Regulations still stated that the guidon would have US and the company letter, however, there is evidence of some guidons having the number of the regiment. Second Dragoons. Congress being what they are, they dismounted the 2nd and made them riflemen in 1843. Then in 1844 they brought them back as 2nd Dragoons. In 1851 the uniform was changed and the Dragoons lost yellow piping and got orange piping. In 1855 the mounted arms were Dragoons (orange), Mounted Riflemen (green), and Cavalry (yellow). During the Civil War, the mounted troops were all designated as Cavalry. 1st Dragoon Regiment was designated as 1st Cavalry Regt, 2nd Dragoons became 2nd Cavalry Regt, and Mounted Riflemen became 3rd Cavalry Regt.

Artillery got guidons in 1886, Engineers got them in 1904.