Why are commanders afraid to let their NCO's use physical corrective actions in the form of Exercises.

2015-09-16T09:51:17-04:00

It seems that in these four short years I have been in the Army, I have witnessed the usual (Smoke) sessions being unauthorized and becoming a term that leaders are almost afraid to use any more. I feel as though this is due to command teams not having a full understanding of Ar 600-20. If the Leaders would only read this AR then they will completely understand the differences between disciplining and hazing. Once the Higher echelons of leadership have this knowledge they can then have an NCOPD over the subject so that leaders at the lower level can enforce physical reprimands for infractions. The lower enlisted That are coming in now could care less that you take their time and money. For the most part they live in the barracks, eat in the DFAC and don't have anything to worry about financially which in turn gives them the "you can't do anything to me" mind frame. Yes I understand you can do paper work and eventually over time kick them out of the army but that process takes a long time, meanwhile you still have to deal with the undisciplined unruly soldiers that at this point jut don't care anymore and cause even bigger problems. On the other hand I have personally seen total dirt bag soldiers become very squared away just from a few, very simple "smoke sessions". Can anyone explain why the army is turning away from this style of leadership that has maintained discipline among junior enlisted and switching to a softer more " wag of the finger" style of keeping the discipline. I feel like it's truly take the power out of the hands of the NCO's and causing the junior enlisted to get complacent and lose their military bearing.

Response by SFC Christopher Taggart made Sep 16 at 2015 10:06 AM

2015-09-16T10:06:11-04:00

Amazing, that a Specialist would speak of discipline. The loss of discipline started with the Drill Sergeant in the 90s. They have become "baby sitters" instead of disciplinarians and the Officers wonder why NCOs are weak. I agree discipline should be brought back and not just in Infantry-type units either. The soldiers in support units are becoming like civilian jobs, with much back talk and gossip going on. Do we really need to talk about fraternization in those units. Commanders and Senior NCOs need to rethink this - I'm not talking about beatings or hazings either, but corrective discipline.

Response by SGT David T. made Sep 16 at 2015 10:18 AM

2015-09-16T10:18:09-04:00

Personally, I never found using physical exercise to correct behavior to be effective. This could be because of the group of Soldiers I had or something different, I really do not know. I found that what worked for me was a very long in depth initial counseling that clearly outlined expectations and consequences for failing to meet those. For minor issues my process flow was typically verbal counseling that I would mention in the monthly so there is a record, the second was written counseling, the third was written counseling followed up with corrective training and the fourth was to recommend UCMJ action. In addition I kept two separate counseling packets, one was the one for 1SG and the second was a complete record in case I needed it. I think doing that created buy in that I really did care about them and was not out to get them. I was kind of weird in how I did things. My main goal was to have my troops respect me as a man and a leader and not so much demanding it based on my rank. I never raised my voice or berated them in public. Even though it was unorthodox, it was effective for me and the group of Soldiers I had.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 16 at 2015 10:29 AM

2015-09-16T10:29:11-04:00

SSG Robinson sums up my thoughts on the matter much more succinctly than I could put it myself.

Jason Robinson | Facebook

It's as much truth as I know.Counseling does not a Soldier or Infantryman make!~Sarnt' Rob

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Sep 16 at 2015 10:32 AM

2015-09-16T10:32:54-04:00

"I am an expert and I am a professional."
Would you make a professional in any field, do push-ups for a minor discrepancy? Yes, we should have the discipline to avoid these discrepancies, but we're human, we make mistakes. Corrective action should fit the crime, so to speak. If your soldier is late, make their report time 15-30 + minutes before everyone else.

On a psychological level, I believe 'smoke' sessions feel like belittlement to some soldiers. We are no longer children who should be getting spanked by our 'parents'. We aren't slaves that get whipped when we take a moment of reprieve. It comes to knowing your soldiers. If you know which soldiers will be squared away by a smoke session, and understanding those who won't, you can take the appropriate action. I feel like I've been treated as sub-human for a good portion of my career, when all I want is to be treated like an adult and have a constructive conversation if there is a perception I did something wrong. I'm also unique in the fact that I will correct myself if an understanding is reached that I was in the wrong (I can't live with a guilty conscience). If a soldier doesn't understand what they did wrong, no amount of push-ups are going to fix the problem.

Response by CSM Carl Cunningham made Sep 16 at 2015 10:55 AM

2015-09-16T10:55:06-04:00

I think Soldiers take the "doing push-ups" thing too personal. I always used that time to explain to the Soldier there deficiency.....in a long, detailed manner. :)

Part of the problem is what SGT Kristin Wiley touched on, NCO's are not explaining what the Soldier did. If you are conducting such corrective action, then you better be explaining to the Soldier what they did wrong, and why they will not do that again. And NEVER make it personal. If you make it personal as a leader, then you already lost......

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Sep 16 at 2015 11:59 AM

2015-09-16T11:59:58-04:00

Oh wow. Alright, let's jump into this.

If the goal is to maintain good order and discipline, use the tools at your disposal. But "smoking" a troop is just one tool, and it's one of the least effective tools, because frankly it's "a punishment that doesn't fit the crime" in many if not most cases.

Physical Exertion is a great punishment for being lazy. It's an amazing punishment if people aren't exerting themselves. It's a horrible punishment for almost anything else. Because it doesn't teach the desired lesson.

Physical Exertion doesn't teach Respect. And anyone who thinks it does has mistaken Fear for Respect. That doesn't mean you can't use Physical Exertion as a tool. It is absolutely a viable tool when used appropriately. But with "all the other tools available" why would you resort to this specific tool to correct a specific deficiency, when you can use other tools to escalate the interest of these so-called "dirt bag soldiers" to the level you want.

If they look horrible in uniform. Constant uniform inspections.

If they are constantly late. Constant musters.

If the work they produce isn't up to snuff, make them redo it until it is.

NCOs still have all the power they did before. In addition they have the ability to use the collective power of "small unit tactics" to correct individuals. It's amazing what a squad or team can do to correct the attitude to an under-performer when you start collectively correcting a "group deficiency of the weakest member" (a la the chain is only as strong as our weakest link).

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Sep 16 at 2015 12:08 PM

2015-09-16T12:08:58-04:00

For me, having a Soldier doing push ups was never anything personal but as CSM Carl Cunningham said, some Soldiers still view it as an attack on them. I also think that NCOs sometimes try to use physical exercise to such a level that it loses it's impact as a proper training tool. Having a Soldier sit in the baking sun in the middle of the motorpool for any amount of extended time with no interaction serves no one. I've seen NCOs try to do things like this as a way of avoiding proper mentorship of the Soldier. Sure, come five minutes late to formation, do a few push ups for making your team wait. But if the behavior is repeated, the punishment should be reviewed. Sure, Soldiers should feel it when they mess up but this does not replace the need for NCOs to take a second and probably mentor their Soldiers.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Sep 16 at 2015 12:27 PM

2015-09-16T12:27:09-04:00

There's a VERY thin line between corrective training and taking something personal and over the top. I've gotten my bags smoked on many occasions but I understood why. I also had NCO's who wanted to correct me to get me in the right mindset, not to be "mad" and take that smoke session to where physical damage could occur. This is where you'd have problems. Imaging the 1SG having to tell his/her CSM that one of their Soldiers is seriously injured from a "simple" smoke session gone wrong? Now you could say that would be an isolated incident. Now take that isolated incident and move it to each division, each BDE, each BN, and CO, and how isolated is it really? We have some very professional NCO's who know their boundaries and want the best for the Soldiers, and can use a smoke session to bring it out. But we also have our fair share of sh*tbags who think that the stripes on their chest is only for them and could care less about Soldiers. Because of them (and they're quite a few of em), it's best to let this "tradition" go. Same way as wall to wall counseling was ok at one time (my father used to tell me about it in his time). Try and use it now, then let me know what your new rank is, and what kind of discharge you get. Paperwork is a pain in the ass, but it's the best option. Overseeing extra duty is another pain in the ass, but it has to be done. But in due time, someone (PSG,1SG,CSM) will see the counseling file and all that BS you went through will be worth it.

Response by SFC Maury Gonzalez made Sep 16 at 2015 12:29 PM

2015-09-16T12:29:26-04:00

That's because they don't want little Johnny calling mama or their congressman

Response by SGT William Howell made Sep 16 at 2015 1:55 PM

2015-09-16T13:55:44-04:00

I have read the post people have put up and there are some good points, but I find it hard to believe that there are so many that do not believe negative reinforcement works. When there are no consequences for ones actions then there is no reason to do what is expected.

Wearing white socks to a formation under you pants does not warrant a counseling statement for the first couple times. It does warrant corrective action and punishment. The soldier knows it was not right and he knows he should not have done it. He pays for it with 50 push ups and we go on our merry way hopefully to never speak of it again. It does not require a 15 minute speech on uniform regs ending with burying everybody with paperwork.

Day to day order and discipline can be and should be maintained with on the spot corrections and on the spot punishments. They are not right for every occasion, but they have their place and should be used accordingly.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 16 at 2015 2:07 PM

2015-09-16T14:07:32-04:00

Be cognizant of your attitude and aware of how others may perceive you from your attitude. For example, you ARE one of the ‘Soldiers these days’. You are not a member of an elite club, different from Soldiers four years junior. I am not sure why you think four years makes you substantially different from everyone else. Additionally, I find it insulting that you assume leaders do not understand, nor have we read, Army regulations. Indeed, we have. What we possess is perspective.

Do not get me wrong, I got the crap smoked out of me as a Private. I was not a fast learner. I am not against ‘smoking' Soldiers whatsoever. I also believe my Infantry is a different environment than other military occupations, which requires a different approach (being smoked is probably more common, understandably). Unfortunately, some take it too seriously and get upset when they should not – leaders and Soldiers alike.

I personally believe NCOs who must consistently ‘smoke’ their Soldiers as their only tool to get points across are weak leaders. Sometimes it is necessary; most of the time, it is not. Every leader has to know when to take a Soldier to the wood line to handle business and when to have a conversation. Men will respect and follow tough leaders who are competent and confident in their jobs. Men follow leaders who teach, mentor, and inspire. I did not stop being a knucklehead PVT/SPC until I had a competent leader begin to actually teach and mentor me. All the smoke sessions prior to that were, and still are, white noise – because no one taught me. Every great leader I have served with in the military had the same thing in common: they invested more time teaching and zero time smoking.

The last time I smoked a subordinate, I was a young, immature Specialist Team Leader who did not quite get it yet. I have served as a First Sergeant for three years and I have yelled probably six times, smoked no one. My subordinate NCOs are the same way. 18-year old Privates are taught and treated like the men that they are. My formation is, unequivocally, the most disciplined formation in the brigade. From the newest Private to the Platoon Sergeants, our formation contains aggressively fierce warriors who are serious, professional and understand the disciplined application of firepower. Of course, we have a bottom 5%, just like everywhere else that will never change.

Perspective brother. It is what senior leaders possess and what we are trying to get a younger generation to understand. It is funny what can happen when you treat men like men, when you foster an environment that acknowledges mistakes will happen and encourages growth from those mistakes.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 16 at 2015 2:24 PM

2015-09-16T14:24:56-04:00

Unfortunately because we have gotten in trouble for "spot corrections" many leaders are not going to use them to be on the safe side.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 17 at 2015 12:04 PM

2015-09-17T12:04:32-04:00

As for myself, I will have no qualms going to the smoking session on my Soldiers if the situation warrants it. And my Soldiers know that. However, smoking them and explaining the deficiency while they are doing something physical can take too much time out of the mission (my unit is TPU and time is limited), so I go with the ever popular (with me anyway) essay writing. Whatever poodle screw they do, I give them the assignment of a 500 word essay to be written in pen, printed and not cursive, no errors of ANY kind, on the topic of what the error was done. This manner of correction has them research what they did wrong and what was supposed to be done correctly, and it helps facilitate their contemplation of the error of their ways. And, it has to be done on their own time. If, when they hand in their assignment, and there are errors, then they are counseled on failing to follow orders and are ordered to do it again. Believe you me, by the time I get the essay back, the error has been corrected and the error is never done again.

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made Sep 18 at 2015 9:49 AM

2015-09-18T09:49:10-04:00

SPC Dakoda Mckinneypotter Or maybe they do understand AR 600-20

AR600-20, Paragraph 4-6 b. (1):

"The training, instruction, or correction given to a Soldier to correct deficiencies must be directly related to the deficiency. It must be oriented to improving the Soldier’s performance in their problem area. Corrective measures may be taken after normal duty hours. Such measures assume the nature of training or instruction, not punishment. Corrective training should continue only until the training deficiency is overcome."

Response by SFC Robert Maddigan made Dec 21 at 2016 7:08 PM

2016-12-21T19:08:48-05:00

Amazing responses from those that think doing pushups for corrective action/discipline is good. This used to be the way before the 80s. The NCO Corp was weak and not respected by the Chain of Command. In the 80s NCOs started taking charge. Discipline was corrective to the infraction. Time is the most valuable thing to a soldier and taking that time makes the point. UCMJ doesn't have pushups as a punishment.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Dec 22 at 2016 8:27 AM

2016-12-22T08:27:18-05:00

I see this stuff here and I just shake my head. We were never harassed by anyone after Parris Island. If a shit bird was not cutting it the Platoon Sgt would take him behind the barracks and fix it. If if got to the First Sgt Heaven help them, he handled things the old fashioned way, he didn't take shit from anyone. But you were treated like a man and they expected you to act like one, it's not all that hard to be responsible and do your job. If you failed PT tests, or went Unk on the range you went to the First Sgt. So no one ever ever failed a PT test it was unthinkable, can't remember anyone not qualifying on the rifle range, pistol was optional I believe.

Response by SCPO Edward Westerdahl made Feb 20 at 2019 10:42 PM

2019-02-20T22:42:59-05:00

I cannot explain it, but still remember doing push-ups and the 96-count manual of arms in Great Lakes in 1963-64.
Company Commanders should be able to assign EMI and either have the best NCOs or the NCOs who also need a little “improvement” themselves be the observers or one of the active participants.
We used to have EMI on weekends when I was in A-school at NATTC Memphis, too. The guys who ran those sessions had the weekend duty.