Why are enlisted members not afforded the same opportunties as officers?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 20:34:40 -0500

Currently there are several intern programs being offered only to officers, why is that? Does someone feel that enlisted members are unworthy? Incapable? Un-equal? This seems like a very discriminatory practice from an organization that prides itself on not discriminating.
So why are Officers the only ones offered these opportunities for personal and professional growth? It seems as though the enlisted soldier is caused to fend for themselves while the officers are groomed.
There are several enlisted members that I know who would love an opportunity like these officers are being offered, myself included. So where are we going wrong when taking care of our enlisted members.?

MG(R) James Wright MBA Program (TRADOC Internship): A TRADOC-funded competitive officer broadening opportunity. It includes an accelerated 15 month degree producing program open to active component Captains and Majors in the Operations, and Logistics branches.

JCS/OSD/ARSTAF Internship:Interns attend Georgetown University and earn a Master of Policy Management degree.

Congressional Fellowship:43-month program which includes pursuit of Master’s degree in Legislative Affairs at George Washington University.

General Downing Scholarship Program: Two-year program to study terrorism and counterterrorism at a top tier graduate school in the U.S. or abroad.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2014 11:05 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Nov 2014 23:05:53 -0500

I'm not meaning to be offensive, but we're looking at very different career prospects. Enlisted have a huge loss around the first term of reenlistment and the majority never make it far beyond the first DA selection board hurdle due to personal initiative, conduct, and educational background.

You can compare the O-3 CPT to the SSG/SFC for spending a huge portion of their career in that paygrade. The CPT has a BA/BS and may already have a graduate degree. Most Are committed to a career when they get picked up for MAJ while a number of SSG retire SFC and some SFC retire the moment they hit three years as a MSG.

We don't hit strategic leadership until we make SGM and even then you can argue that the additional ASIs for various levels of senior enlisted advisor experience really creates that strategic enlisted advisor around the SSD-5 level.

In all sincerity, spending a huge amount of resources giving us Enlisted folks special internships is pearls before swine in the large scheme of things. We do not possess the background, current expertise, or future longevity to implement what we could learn at those internships compared to an Officer with another decade in service.

The lack of mentorship is distinctively our own fault though. Every SFC who is competing for MSG and complaining about an empty IPERMS and a messed up ERB is proof of that.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Nov 8 at 2014 12:25 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Sat, 08 Nov 2014 12:25:20 -0500

I know the AF and Navy both have Enlisted Legislative Fellow Programs. The AF now also sends qualified enlisted members (through a competitive board process) to select Masters Degree programs through AFIT, Defense Intel University and Industry partnerships.

There are no where near as many slots for enlisted as there are officers, but there are at least slots now.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Nov 9 at 2014 4:23 AM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Sun, 09 Nov 2014 04:23:27 -0500

Send me, I just went indefinite, and I have a BS and a MS. I am worthy of a challenge. Sergeant First Class Grudzinski and SSG Beultler both make very good points. I have thought the same things said by the OP in the past. I have also sometimes felt like a second class citizen in the ranks of enlisted, but I hope I have changed that through my hard work in college because Officers aren't the only Soldiers will college degrees.

Response by SSG Lisa Rendina made Nov 9 at 2014 5:27 PM

SSG Lisa Rendina — Sun, 09 Nov 2014 17:27:05 -0500

There are good and valid points being made on both sides of the argument. Should these same programs be open to all enlisted Soldiers? Perhaps not. Should they be open to qualified enlisted Soldiers (by grade, TIS, previous education)? I think so. Gone are the days where the biggest thing separating Commissioned Officers from enlisted Soldiers was a college education. I came in with a BA and completed my Masters while on AD. I have several friends with Masters and even more with Bachelor degrees. I think the point being made, is all Commissioned Officers are eligible for these programs (though still would have to apply and be accepted) based only on the fact they wear bars or oak leaves; while equally and even greater-educated enlisted are disqualified simply because they wear chevrons and rockers.

Response by LTC Paul Heinlein made Nov 9 at 2014 5:37 PM

LTC Paul Heinlein — Sun, 09 Nov 2014 17:37:48 -0500

SFC Private RallyPoint Member ,

Its in the works, at least on the Military Police side. I would try an talk to your MP Branch rep at HRC to see how far along it is.

From the MP School there was a strong push for Training with Industry and Fellowships (with FBI, Marshals, DEA, ATF, etc). Army Corrections Command gave up a 31E slot which allowed a 31E position to work with the Marshal Service.

One of the hold ups on the enlisted side is how they manage slots/ positions.

Response by SFC Dwight Beaver made Jun 5 at 2021 11:02 PM

SFC Dwight Beaver — Sat, 05 Jun 2021 23:02:47 -0400

Are these not all programs for higher command leadership.
How many enlisted have you seen as company commanders or battalion commanders...
Put in your papers to become an officer

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Jun 6 at 2021 4:19 PM

Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis — Sun, 06 Jun 2021 16:19:21 -0400

When you consider a Military Career, you get to consider the Enlisted or Commissioned route. If you have a decent recruiter, or you are good at research on your own, you get to understand that opportunities are available for Officers (meaning Commissioned Officers) and what opportunities are available for Enlisted. You then get to weigh the effort to get into each corps. Getting into the Officer Corps is much more difficult, due to the requirement for a degree. Also, you cannot be commissioned until you are 21, but you can enlist at 18.

Bottom line: You are free to choose which path to take. You align it with your needs, abilities, skills, desires, and resources you are willing to spend to achieve that goal. You've gone into this with your eyes wide open. When you make your decision you knew that some opportunities will not be available to you. You made a decision, and there is an expectation to abide by that decision. You can even change that decision (somewhat) by applying for a commissioning program, if you qualify.

So now you are complaining?

Response by SSG Eric Blue made Jun 6 at 2021 6:57 PM

SSG Eric Blue — Sun, 06 Jun 2021 18:57:06 -0400

In my own experience, it's because there are so many of us and so few of them. What I've also seen is that officers tend to need broadening and lots of grooming. It wasn't needed so much where I was with the junior enlisted because of the NCO Corps. On the flip-flop, there's also the color thing. Where I've come up and through, the distribution was roughly one non-white officer to every 10 white officers and one white enlisted servicemember (junior or NCO, male or female) to every 3 or 4 non-white enlisted servicemembers. I've seen numerous non-white officers who are head and shoulders above their peers get passed over on opportunities because of their skin color and unfortunately, some of those same or similar opportunities that were about to go to worthy enlisted members got snatched up by the officers who got passed over. One of the other things that bugged that's related to what I mentioned is how enlisted members and junior NCOs would frequently get passed over for additional duties that they wanted and actively pursued AND WERE TAILOR-MADE FOR just so that SFC, LT, or CPT (insert name here) could get something extra on their OER or NCOER and it was a duty they absolutely hated and/or sucked at! I don't know when it will stop, but I hope it stops sooner rather than later.

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Jul 22 at 2022 11:49 AM

Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis — Fri, 22 Jul 2022 11:49:22 -0400

With all of this said, what opportunities for Enlisted exist that Commissioned Officers cannot do?

Response by SSG Eric Blue made Jul 22 at 2022 2:16 PM

SSG Eric Blue — Fri, 22 Jul 2022 14:16:49 -0400

In my own experience watching junior soldiers and junior NCOs struggle along with me, I think it's because they want Joe & Jane and their junior leaders (SGT and SSG) to train, train, and train some more so that they'll be "ready to fight." I've never seen a good portion of the officers participate in any type of training and the reason I've almost always been given either relates to "an officer's weapon is their voice, commanding troops to execute this or that mission" or that "officers are too busy in the planning process to train with the troops." While there's some truth to this, I've seen more officers sham out and get out of training simply because they're officers. There's also seniors officers babying junior officers because of where they come from or what program they've completed. Case in point, I've seen West Pointers whose senior raters are also West Pointers get out of many a thing while VMI grads, Citadel grads, and former enlisted troops who went green to gold get held back...even though the West Pointer is less qualified or interested in the program being offered. This is what I'VE seen, however. I know others have seen something different.

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Jul 22 at 2022 5:33 PM

Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis — Fri, 22 Jul 2022 17:33:06 -0400

Okay. So let us review. When you enlisted, you were informed of all the programs for which you might become qualified. Presumably, you might have been informed of programs that Commissioned Officers might become qualified, but you won't because of your Enlisted status. As a result, you considered your options. Then you enlisted, anyway. Why? If you thought the programs, for which only Commissioned Officers would be qualified, were programs you wanted to do then why not go get Commissioned as an Officer?

What happened to "You made your decision freely, now go do what you can with what you've got." and "If the 'other side of the fence' is better, then go qualify to join the 'other side of the fence'.?