Why are NCOES/OES APFTs graded differently?

2014-02-18T22:08:35-05:00

Has anyone else noticed that at most military schools the APFT graders seem to grade you harder than your unit? Why is this? Has anyone else seen this? I remember having to be video taped and having to provide three "example" push-ups prior to my test during my APFT in ANCOC, seemed a little over board at the time. Thoughts?

Response by CSM Michael Poll made Feb 18 at 2014 10:10 PM

2014-02-18T22:10:31-05:00

Because NCOES grades to standard, most units grade to fix thier metrics. THis is systemic and needs NCO's with integrity to stand up and grade to standard at the unit level.

Response by 1SG Eric Rice made Feb 18 at 2014 10:24 PM

2014-02-18T22:24:13-05:00

Cpt Weber,

It is often misunderstood that the APFT is graded harder at NCOES. The simple truth is that we only grade to standard as well as conduct height and weight to standard. CSM Poll is spot on with his assessment.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2014 10:38 PM

2014-02-18T22:38:57-05:00

In reality there is a difference although I never have been video taped for a AFPT there are different standards between schools and homes station. With the removal of MFT from the units a unit will get anyone who is generally available so there is not much continuity. but at a school house the same people do the testing every week and understand the regulations and would not put their integrity into question.

Response by SSG Carl Sensabaugh II made Feb 18 at 2014 11:59 PM

2014-02-18T23:59:17-05:00

Sir, it comes down to this, there are a few, very few NCOs that will grade to the
standard at the unit but when senior NCOs/Officers tell them to take it
down a notch that is heart breaking. The hardest part is, if they don't,
they begin to be pushed out or not put in a position for promotion. I
have seen this between the different MOS and types of units. I was an
infantryman for ten years till an injury that caused me to re-class and I
then seen the differences. Also, those who uphold the standards were
never allowed to grade the APFT (we are to hard).

Response by SGT Mitch McKinley made Feb 19 at 2014 12:14 PM

2014-02-19T12:14:00-05:00

While I agree with the fact that NCOES schools grade to the standard, I also understand the frustration of the participants during the scoring of the APFT.

I was a training NCO and was responsible for all the PT tests and height/weight tapes as well as providing oversight of the APFT grading fro our unit.

I often called reminded graders of the standards for each event when they were grading softly.

The frustration for me was wen I went to PLDC and they only counted 44 push-ups, citing that I wasn't go down all the way. My arms definitely broke the plain of parallel to the ground. I was typically doing 65-70 push-ups.

The standard is often times interpreted by the graders, and not always properly.

I have often seen graders say the testee was not going down far enough, when they absolutely were meeting or exceededing the standard.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2014 1:04 PM

2014-02-19T13:04:04-05:00

The NCOES do grade harder than the regular Army when the regular Army is slacking.

There is one big caveat though: The pushup standard is just awful. Interpretations of what is a good pushup vary wildly.
I have no issue with the sit-up or the run. The problem with the pushup is that it is "where your hands are comfortable for you" and that the reference for "breaking the plane" is parallel upper-arms.
If the standard was "hands under shoulders, arms flat to the side, breaking the plane occurs when the shoulders are below the height of the elbows" then we wouldn't have the issue with the APFT.
In all the people that come through NCOES in Fort Lee, the number one event where scores differ massively from credible home station APFT is the push-up.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2014 11:34 PM

2014-02-19T23:34:10-05:00

I hate to say it, but most of the pushups I have seen outside of an NCOES were not up to standard. At an NCOES they grade to standard. Period. They have no personal ties to the students.

It's impossible to correct a tester in the middle of an APFT in a way that will make a lasting influence. The correction needs to be happening every day at PT.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2014 11:36 PM

2014-02-19T23:36:53-05:00

Every NCOES APFT I have taken I have literally had to bounce my chest off the ground.

When I did situps the base of my neck had to go far beyond the base of my spine.

I do agree that unit APFT can certainly be the opposite, but every NCOES APFT was ridiculous. Not complaining too much, I earned APFT badge at each level, just saying it was pretty outlandish.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2014 10:24 AM

2014-02-20T10:24:26-05:00

They are not graded different they are graded to standard. CSM Poll is correct, unfortunatly units grade themselves to make themselves look better. If you have a Company PT test many of the Graders are Junior Staff Sergeants grading their own Soldiers. In our BDE we have instituded where your own company will not grade your own PT test. Company CO's, 1SGs, PLs, and PSGs will be at the front of the PT test line to show the Soldiers that we do it as a Company. Also, the will be 1 or more CSMs or SGMs walking around overseeing standards during the PT test. It may seem like micro-management but you have to start somewhere.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Mar 9 at 2014 10:26 AM

2014-03-09T10:26:03-04:00

Having spent 2 1/2 years as and SGL and Sr SGL, I can tell you that we did not grade "harder", we graded to standard. When we were selected as SGLs at Ft. Stewart, one of the classes we went through was the proper grading for the APFT. We know on APFT day there will be whining and complaining from many students because their scores "dropped", but it was due to their incorrect form, mostly on push-ups but to a lesser extent sit-ups as well, that their units would let slide. We were not out there to weed out individuals, we were chosen due to our professionalism to train and mentor young NCOs/Soldiers to become the standard bearers of the future. I used to tell my students all the time, especially when it came to pt, "I will train you to the standard and show you what right looks like, once you get back to your unit however, you will see things that are not to standard, it is up to you to implement change where you can, but ultimately what your PSG/1SG enforces it what your unit's standard will be."

"TREAT 'EM ROUGH!!"

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 5:35 PM

2014-03-21T17:35:09-04:00

I know that i have experienced a lot of "over zealous" grading when I attend NCOES. So, having graduated DS School, Master Fitness and having scored 290-300+ while attending, I know that I can do the events properly... I know what the standard is, looks like, and how it is performed. This being said, I went to SLC in January and was like, WTF is going on here? when the grader was telling me to "go down further"... "Go up further" smh. NCOES just does not want to appear as though they DO NOT grade to standard therefore they really do make it almost impossible to complete the APFT with a high score... They do not want to APPEAR as though their standards match a unit with poor standards etc...

I will try to look at it like this. Everyone who attends NCOES sees and believes they grade too difficult. I believe it because I have seen it. That is also a fair assesment based on all the facts/opinions provided in the discussions,

People who are ASSIGNED to NCOA's claim that they are "simply grading to standard" so they can defend their grading methods/standards (w/e) when others argue they grade "too hard". But I bet when one of those cadre PCS's and are attending their own next level of NCOES school with no ties to it, and are then graded the same way they graded me or you, they wont be saying its to standard because now they are the "victim" instead of "victimizer" per se'.

Its all perception with ego and pride on both parties. Having said this, there is only one party that actually has something to lose, and that's the student and their career. What does the academy have to lose? Someone scored a 300!!?, oh my god, we can't have that can we?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 5:49 PM

2014-03-21T17:49:08-04:00

The APFT at NCOES, in my experience, is not graded any differently, it is just graded to the standard. I will admit that my APFT score decreased when I first attended NCOES because I wasn't going all the way down. I didn't believe it at first, but I did have someone record me doing push ups on my own one day, and I could see that as I got tired my form did not meet the standard.

At NCOES, they graded strictly to the standard. Any sub-standard push-ups and sit-ups do not count. I have never heard of anyone complaining about the run/walk/bike at NCOES though, but that is probably because it is hard to screw up your form on those.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 5:59 PM

2014-03-21T17:59:36-04:00

I will concur with everyone else that very few NCOs at regular units seem to grade to the same correct standard as NCOES. This is a huge disservice to the NCO and sets them up for failure. At the very least, the diagnostic APFT that NCO takes immediately before NCOES should be at the same standard as NCOES. When I went to SLC, our graders didn't even tell us our scores. As senior noncommissioned officers, we were supposed to know if we met the standard or not. So you can bet that all of us NCOs were doing very very low push-ups just to make sure.

Response by SSG Jeffery Nebel made Mar 21 at 2014 6:02 PM

2014-03-21T18:02:29-04:00

I remember going to PLDC and having a bit of concern over the PT test. My concerns were put to rest when I completed the test with a higher score than the one I took to get there. The reason, because my unit graded me harder than it really should have. It was to my benefit. In most cases, (not all) those who are griping about the way a PFT is graded usually are the ones who need to work more on their PT. Just my experience.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 6:35 PM

2014-03-21T18:35:04-04:00

In my opinion it may seem tougher but most schools that I have been to it has been fair. I think sometimes back at home units Soldiers can get away with less than standard pushups.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2014 12:01 PM

2014-03-23T12:01:49-04:00

I believe the problem lies in that We as NCOs tend to want to stab other NCOs in the back to protect our standing/promotion potential. The NCO Corps in my opinion has turned into a popularity contest, and anyway some Senior NCO's can get a leg up on their peers they will.

I've been asked several times throughout my career by officers why NCOs don't spend more time mentoring and guiding their peers and subordinates to take over their jobs; when the officers tend to spend more time mentoring their own. My only answer has been, we are so driven to perfection that some NCOs will do what ever it takes to make themselves look good and will stand on whoever/whatever to get that 1/1.

I also believe that the MI Corps is probably the worst offenders, but I have personally seen this behavior outside of MI too.

To directly answer your question, in My opinion, I believe some Senior leaders take pride in how many Soldiers they send home from NCOES. Thus having something to hold over their fellow CSMs, and proving they are the gate keepers to the NCO Corps.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2014 8:14 PM

2014-03-23T20:14:05-04:00

One time I had an APFT with a grizzly old SFC grading me. He had a yard stick, and said, this yardstick is to make sure you are doing things by the standard. I was extremely nervous about this, because I thought that meant "grade you to fail." That APFT by far was the best and most fairly graded APFT I have ever taken. The standard is the standard, and it is helpful when people grade to the standard, as every other APFT I have to bounce my chest off the ground to "break the plane", whatever that means.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2014 1:41 PM

2014-05-21T13:41:59-04:00

They're not….they're graded to Army Standard…it's the units that aren't grading to standard.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2016 11:04 AM

2016-02-24T11:04:04-05:00

A PT Test should be the easiest day of PT. This is meaning that everyone should be able to complete standards and merits of measure are out there. I think doing 3 push-ups or sit-ups before the event is smarter then not knowing what the grader is expecting. PLDC, BNCOC, ANCOC, I had three different types of people grading me. ANCOC was the hardest when I had a SFC/68G grading me, as I was a SSG serving as a PSG inside of an infantry battalion. I probably did the typically 85 push-ups and got up and she scored me in the 80s with 60 some push-ups.
Talked to the "Senior" and he offered that I could retake it with the people that had not met standard at the end of the course, but wouldn't be in the running for the PT award or on the famous 1059. I'm not sure if he even mentioned it to her.
I'm glad the experience is over, as you feel like it's a discredit to your ability, but honestly it's their test and their screw up, either way. If we (NCOs) can't understand these basic essentials, then how are we ever going to tackle the bigger issues.
To close, if people follow the policy and not strive to make this simple test harder or easier than it should be, then we'll never do ourselves the justice of doing something more.