Why are “smoke sessions” only a TRADOC thing?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Jan 2020 22:38:40 -0500

I’ve noticed that after leaving basic and AIT no one really gets smoked as a punishment. I understand there are regulations that limit smokings i suppose, but why is it available in basic training and not in FORSCOM.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Jan 23 at 2020 10:42 PM

CSM Charles Hayden — Thu, 23 Jan 2020 22:42:31 -0500

Smoking Troops is an immediate corrective action. At that stage they are still in a ‘learning’ mode.

Response by MAJ Javier Rivera made Jan 23 at 2020 11:11 PM

MAJ Javier Rivera — Thu, 23 Jan 2020 23:11:57 -0500

Once at the unit I’ll rather do positive reinforcement by hitting their pockets and taking their personal time. It more memorable and functional. Smoking does to a point.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2020 11:28 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Jan 2020 23:28:17 -0500

Drill Sergeants do not use "smoke sessions" as punishment in the BCT/AIT environment. They simply provide initial entry trainees with positive reinforcement through methods of corrective training to ensure they are physically prepared to meet their future units mission.

CSM Charles Hayden and MAJ Javier Rivera hit the nail on the head for Soldiers in the operating force.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jan 23 at 2020 11:32 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Thu, 23 Jan 2020 23:32:01 -0500

Very common in 82nd/RGR- drop give me 25, push GA away till I get tired, for minor infractions. School of the Solider on weekend for slightly more serious, then UCMJ

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2020 12:14 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 00:14:04 -0500

Firstly....it’s not a smoke session. It’s corrective action. It sounds like a trivial technically but it really isn’t.

Basic training is meant to break recruits down and then rebuild them back up. We trust the drills to do their job and give us mostly quality soldiers. When you are a soldier, you’re expected to be a grown ass man. Corrective action is used to get a soldiers attention. It’s one of those first time offense, hey dummy, what did you do wrong types of things.

Usually, after continual screw ups, it will go on paper in. Some soldiers just need a good hard sweat session, but usually soldiers don’t change. If they always are messing up, they’ll usually remain that way. There are only special instances a soldier should really be “smoked”. The only one I full heartedly support is on deployments or TCS where you’re there for a long period of time and getting that soldier removed from service or punitively punished is not possible (usually due to manning issues). In this case you need to make it clear that there will be more pain if they continue to screw up. This should be done carefully and with a mutual understanding with the soldier. There are regulations to prevent excessive exercise due to injury, and it’s possible to get in trouble if the wrong person hears about it.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Jan 24 at 2020 12:18 AM

SSG Brian G. — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 00:18:55 -0500

Simple BCT and AIT the soldiers are constantly there. Soldier fails to salute, platoon screws up in a DNC maneuver or something else it is more beneficial to 1/2 right face them and drop them into the front leaning rest and have them knock out 25-50 push ups. They are in training mode.

They graduate and become full soldiers that are Q'ed in their job and now things become more complicated. Soldier gets dropped for hands in their pockets for example and told to knock out 25 now can go complain to you to the chaplain, to another NCO, to the IG or an officer. They have more avenues available.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2020 2:13 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 02:13:09 -0500

Because years ago, over zealous NCOs took things a bit too far, a few too many times and hurt subordinates. Here's a few examples:
Back when I was in 75th, a CPL took a guy into the laundry room, turned on all the dryers and smoked him till he had a heat stroke and had to be med boarded.
1SG pinned on E5 rank by womping him in the chest with a wooden mallet. Guy dropped dead from his heart stopping.
Marine Drill Instructor harrasses Muslim recruit and smokes him repeatedly until the recruit runs and jumps off a balcony in the middle of the smoke session, killing himself.
Back in the 90s a video of newbies in the 82nd getting their blood wings, showed NCOs pounding those wings in so hard the guys were crying.

Now as a commander and as a leader, when something like this happens and comes to public in the light of day, you have to take a stance on it. You have to declare if you are for or against this kind of action. We on the ground know that a good bit of sweat, blood and tears make stronger Soldiers. But, that mom who is considering letting her baby join the military doesn't understand that. So, in order to survive as an organization that is representative of the nation we are formed from, we have to adapt to the highest values of that nation. If we blow off that mom, all the mothers will stop letting their kids join and the military will dwindle and die. Sure, there will be a few really tough people, but it would be a very small and ineffective military. So, we adapt. The leadership publicly declares that hazing is bad and anything that ostracizes a member of the group is bad, because that's not what the best values of America are about.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jan 24 at 2020 7:03 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 07:03:23 -0500

I think you have a misguided view of how to motivate and correct behavior. If you are referencing using fit components to help a Soldier remember, the golden rule applies. Do it with them. However you better damn well know the policies and rules associated with such activity, is it authorized at all. I assure you that “smoking” is not taught in NCO Academies.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2020 8:30 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 08:30:45 -0500

The biggest reason we used to smoke our Soldiers as Drill Sergeants was to give them extra PT so they could pass the PT test at the end of BCT. If we just used the daily PT and adhered to all of the handcuffs in TRADOC REG 350-6 the majority of new recruits would not pass the PT Test. We tried this one cycle, where we would not "smoke" any Soldier or our PLT as a whole the entire cycle and only did the scheduled PT. We had a 70% PT failure at the end of the cycle. Our leadership lost their mind. We showed them that we needed to provide the extra PT in order for the Soldiers to pass the PT Test. We were never questioned after that again. The next cycle the "smoke" sessions resumed and we had a 90% pass rate. You just cant get civilians into shape without the extra PT provided by your loving Drill Sergeants.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2020 9:47 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 09:47:41 -0500

At basic and AIT you have no "free time" in the sense that you do in a unit.
Once assigned to a unit, there is an end to a duty day, usually 1630.
Taking Joe's time at the end of the duty is much more effective as a corrective action than any length of smoke session during the duty day.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Jan 24 at 2020 10:09 AM

CSM Richard StCyr — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 10:09:49 -0500

It's not totally limited to TRADOC, however it's a lot easier to link the corrective action to training and conditioning in a training environment then in an operational environment.

We used to do pushups for minor uniform infractions like unfastened pockets , crooked gig lines, dull boots at formation, unsubdued rank or badges ,or repelling lines on our uniforms. It slacked off in the mid to late 90's when folks first became concerned with hazing and that's pretty much why you don't see it as often outside TRADOC.

Like anything that gets over regulated it results from some dipshit taking things way past what would be considered appropriate. For instance at Fort Benning in a FORSCOM line unit around 1989 or so a Squad Leader smoked a Soldier until they had a heat injury. Heat injuries used to be a death sentence for leaders.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2020 2:14 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 14:14:34 -0500

I knew of guys getting there legs broken when getting blood stripes. I remember getting E-3, my arms were black and blue from the top of my shoulder to my elbows.

The real problem wasn't getting a hazed, it was... "payback is a bitch." You may not get the guys who got you, but you were definitely going to get the new juniors.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2020 3:39 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 15:39:11 -0500

When I arrived to my first unit at Bragg. In August 2016, smoke sessions where the go to for even the smallest screw up. I don’t know when it changed, but when it did. I lost motivation, and morale was affected I’ll admit. Smoke sessions build the soldier, and if you’re getting smoked with your Teammate or platoon. That builds comradery within. There’s time when things can be taking to the extreme I agree. A smoke session, shouldn’t be looked at as a smoke session. But as a “Free Workout”

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2020 3:49 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 31 Jan 2020 03:49:44 -0500

From everything I've learned, smoke sessions are used to mainly build discipline, and get the soldier ready for the PT test at the end of basic. In basic, you are supposed to be broken down and rebuilt, becoming a soldier not a civilian. This comes from strict PT, smoking and D&C. Even after basic, most of the time you are getting smoked is because someone messed up. AIT is more for you to learn, not for you to get smoked so you shouldn't get smoked as much in AIT unless you are undisciplined (at least that's how it was in FT Gordon). In the actual military, not everyone is looking to smoke you because you are already expected to be disciplined and ready for a PT, and you probably have a job to do, which a smoke session would just waste your time and effect the mission. This is all purely out of personal experience and how my NCO's and warrants described it, so take it with a grain of salt.