Why are so many E-4 & E-5's so ill prepared for WLC?

2015-07-21T15:35:08-04:00

I've been an instructor for the past 4 years and have seen so many Soldier come through WLC ill prepared, I know that if they actually took the time to go through SSD 1 and take the information and apply it that they would be prepared for WLC, but I see too many just finger drill SSD 1 because their Squad Leader/Training NCO said to. What are your thoughts?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2015 3:40 PM

2015-07-21T15:40:01-04:00

You hit it. Someone told them to do it. If they did it own their own initiative or without the pretense of needing it to get promoted it would be a different story.

Response by SSG Izzy Abbass made Jul 21 at 2015 3:48 PM

2015-07-21T15:48:32-04:00

Out of curiosity, how do you see the preparedness out of the different MOS backgrounds? I do know that when I went through it (right after Custer lost it seems like), it wasn't tough for me but it was mostly 11B skills and I was an 11B.

Response by COL Mikel J. Burroughs made Jul 21 at 2015 3:56 PM

2015-07-21T15:56:53-04:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member I know that when I was Company Commander and Battalion Commander my 1SG and CSM was running into the same issue and I can tell you (in my opinion) its the unit's fault for not properly preparing them for WLC. We implemented programs within the various Platoons at the company level to ensure there was time allocated for WLC training for all future E4's preparing to go and E5's that needed to go because they were promoted down range. As a Battalion Commander I pushed that concept out with my CSM running the program. If you want your enlisted personnel prepared for schools then get your trainings involved (your NCO Corp). Get them to take ownership of what is rightfully theirs to own! Just an opinion from a former SSG/E-6 NCO.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2015 4:00 PM

2015-07-21T16:00:00-04:00

Ill prepared Soldiers are a sign of lack of proper mentorship.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2015 4:12 PM

2015-07-21T16:12:55-04:00

2 Reasons......
1. They are not ready to be NCO's.
2. Their NCO's dont care about them.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2015 4:18 PM

2015-07-21T16:18:33-04:00

You lost me at finger drill. Some soldiers don't really have the right mind set. Some don't even believe the information to be useful. These are the soldiers that should be phased out and not pushed through.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2015 4:19 PM

2015-07-21T16:19:01-04:00

I was a PLDC SGL when we started the pilot program for WLC. Even then, many potential NCO's showed up busting tape, failing APFT, can't march, can't study properly, can't read a map, couldnt extend a rectangular PT formation. I blame this on them and their NCO's. If they were not ready to attend and succeed at PLDC(WLC) then don't send them. Not everyone is cut out to lead. Take time and develop them with basic NCO's skills before you send them to the wolves. As a SGL, it was frustrating at times, but we had a job to do and our goal was to send them out the door as a better leader and with the tools and resources to help them develop.

Response by MSgt Chris Adams made Jul 21 at 2015 4:23 PM

2015-07-21T16:23:42-04:00

At one time, the Air Force only sent selected E-4s to NCO Leadership/Prep course. But the training was changed to require all E-4s to go, no matter what. I wonder if turning the training from "earning" a spot to "have to go" has changed preparation practices.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2015 4:39 PM

2015-07-21T16:39:29-04:00

Im in WLC RIGHT NOW! I can tell you its a couple of things... our unit failed to train us on the expectations set forth by the WLC regulation. Its also bc WLC in itself is failed. WLCs entire premise is regulation regulation regulation. Which is good. Ive learned ALOT! but I would argue over Half of the armys SOPs, tactics, and processes arent regulation... and its WAY better that way. The Army says do stuff this way but maybe there is another way to do it thats better and thats the way the unit does things. It becomes SOP. Therefore, "regulation" in the eyes of the soldiers from that unit. WLC can also become very insulting to many Soldiers intelligence, creating friction between the soldier and willingness to learn what WLC teaches

Response by SGT James Elphick made Jul 21 at 2015 4:40 PM

2015-07-21T16:40:33-04:00

Because from the end of AIT until they attend WLC they are likely to receive little to no training. The Army has moved towards a "schools mentality" as I call it in that training only happens at the various school houses and no longer happens at the unit level. As far as I know Sergeants time has virtually disappeared in the past 10-15 years (the 82nd had banned it while I was there because too many team leaders were using it as sham time). Too much of the old school leadership that took the time to work with and mentor soldiers faded away/retired/ets'd and that has been happening also for 10-15 years so that by the time we get to the point we are today no one has been taking the extra time to train and mentor soldiers.

Response by SPC Dale St. Pierre made Jul 21 at 2015 4:49 PM

2015-07-21T16:49:56-04:00

Bottom line, took it passed it. DOES NOTHING TO TRAIN FOR LEADERSHIP. Grunt task are not leader development, proper 4187,how to teach task and skill, and looking for and understanding AR's would be, teaching take care of joe is top of priorities list is a good start.

Response by SGT(P) Bruce Van Havermaet made Jul 21 at 2015 5:51 PM

2015-07-21T17:51:53-04:00

Hi my thought is they should go back to 30 days of leadership school, take away the dam phones. No pain no gain. When I went back in 85 it was like basic, we worked and learned hard.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2015 5:56 PM

2015-07-21T17:56:28-04:00

BLUF: NCOs are not doing their job.

Part of this is attributable to most of our current batch of E5s & E6s enlisted and got promoted during the last 14 years (GWOT), where the sole focus in most units has been: can you shoot, move & communicate? If so, you can deploy. Unfortunately, that's not all that is required of an NCO (how about Soldier care?). Another part belongs at the feet of senior leaders that have let training opportunities slip by in the name of expediency or convenience. And perhaps lastly, the E-4 or E-5 that is eligible for WLC but not motivated. They will generally rise or fall to the expectations that are set for them. Those that shirk opportunities to attend NCOES or fail to properly prepare for school should be counseled and considered for a bar to re-enlistment.

Ultimately, commander's have to hold their 1SGs and CSMs accountable. With shrinking budgets limited school slots, they have to get out of the office and ensure training is being conducted to standard (along with advising the commander & seeing to Soldier welfare). This is a fairer expectation than holding them accountable for retention which is already in place.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2015 6:21 PM

2015-07-21T18:21:03-04:00

WLC is not hard, I did my SSD 1 in 2013 and didn't go to WLC until 2014. Do you think I really retained the literature I learned in SSD 1? Maybe. But more than likely not. When I went through WLC I relearned all the topics and put my time into learning, applying and then passing. In my opinion soldiers and NCOs attend WLC thinking its a cake walk cause everyone tells them it is. If you go in not knowing anything and you don't put the time and effort in. You will fail.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2015 7:20 PM

2015-07-21T19:20:53-04:00

I went to WLC as a brand new SPC expecting to learn a great deal of information, however I did not. The only thing I learned at the NCOA was to be patient and use tact with unprofessional SSGs who wanted to be there less than I did. Maybe my SGLs were a fluke maybe the NCOA was a fluke but I was highly unimpressed and felt that the majority of instructors there were NCOs in for 15+ years who couldn't get selected for SFC and no longer cared about their own careers let alone improving mine.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2015 8:20 PM

2015-07-21T20:20:16-04:00

My question is do you really think SSD 1 really prepares them for WLC? Hell, does it even prepare them to become a leader? Do you really think in today's Army that Soldiers have the integrity to sit down and actually read ever slide or watch ever video and actually learn? I think not.

The other side to this is do leaders actually teach, coach, and mentor these junior leaders into become good leaders? No, they tell them to go do SSD 1 and rely on that which in turn brings me to my points above.

Thoughts?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2015 8:49 PM

2015-07-21T20:49:01-04:00

I have alot of reasons why e4 and e5 are not ready for wlc. I graduate wlc back in January. And i had to work my way and learn almost evrything by myself and seek the answers. Here goes why i think their not ready.
1. Lack of motivation or not driven to succeed. (This is key to have in are army and to make it threw the ranks. )
2. Lack of proper mentorship and toxic leadership. (Most nco are looking out for themselves while others are trying to help their soldiers suceed.)
3. Some soldiers are pushed to go when they dont want to go or just dont care anymore.
4. Getting support from their chain of command.

Response by SPC Nathan Acreman made Jul 21 at 2015 9:01 PM

2015-07-21T21:01:19-04:00

I am not sure if anything has changed since 2010 when I went through WLC at Ft Campbell, but if someone wasn't ready they were sent back to their units. This is my guess, but I think units are now pushing soldiers through WLC as soon as slots are open to prepare soldiers for the next step. This may or may not be a good thing. On the one hand it prepares young soldiers for the future. On the other hand soldiers being pushed to the school are not ready yet for the school.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Jul 21 at 2015 9:03 PM

2015-07-21T21:03:19-04:00

Same old story, same old song and dance....there were a lot of Soldiers that were ill prepared when I was an SGL back in '00-'02, most of the issue is on Soldiers that have failed to prepare themselves properly and some of it I blame on the units for sending ill prepared, unqualified Soldiers in the first place. I was fortunate in a lot of ways as a young CPL, I had the chance to basically OJT for 7 months prior to attending PLDC (sorry, I still can't refer to it as WLC, lol) so I had an understanding of what Leadership was as well as having led Soldiers in PT and D&C and many of the other tasks I was taught when I finally went to PLDC. A lot of it I will put down today as a lack of mentoring by Sr NCOs of their subordinate NCOs and those junior NCOs not properly mentoring their Soldiers. Hopefully the Army will be able to return to a more positive mentoring footprint now that we are returning to a more garrison type Army, although the Army today is looking at more small-scale deployments to Korea, Europe, Africa and the Middle East.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2015 9:52 PM

2015-07-21T21:52:29-04:00

Having just graduated last month and given the soldiers I was in class with I could contribute it to a failure in their leadership. Not ensuring they relearned or rembered basic soldier task like land nav or their battle drills. Yes the soldier can take it upon themselves to study it which they should. But the nco putting them in wlc should ensure they know the basics before they send the soldier.

Response by SFC Wesley Arnold, Jr made Jul 21 at 2015 11:36 PM

2015-07-21T23:36:57-04:00

Here's my two cents ... if it's even worth that anymore.

Most of you have all touched on some or one of the issues, so I can't replay directly to all of you.
Not only are they just checking the box, but most of the first line supervisors are only concerned with weight and APFT ... they all know everything else I showed them. Everyone want's to rely on everything electronic, "only crusty old timers still do it the old way.
"Hey this trooper has spent the last 4 or 5 rotation down range, they know what they are doing." That same trooper has never been in garrison for more than 30 days permanent party.

What's going to happen when we wind up toe to toe with Russia or China ... battlefield is hit by a EMP blast and all we have is the "old ways". Will our future leaders be ready?

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2015 11:57 PM

2015-07-21T23:57:53-04:00

In my opinion, it's both the soldiers and the leadership's fault. The soldier is given the standards and requirements. They should prepare themselves and ensure that they meet standards and have everything they're required to take with them. Their leadership should follow up with them to ensure that they do have everything and meet standards. ATTRS is available for anyone in the military to see and access for available classes/schools and it explains in detail what the course entails, plus the requirements and packing list. Plus once they are enrolled they receive a confirmation from the school with all the information.
Some go and don't want to be there or care if they pass. Some are forced to go at the last minute and unable to prepare. Leadership should ensure the SM is ready to go before sending SM regardless though.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Jul 22 at 2015 12:13 AM

2015-07-22T00:13:59-04:00

SSG Montgomery Panui, Simple, as I told my 53 year old son a few hours ago. I was fat, dumb and happy being an E-2/3 at Ft. Knox when I was 20 years old! No one in the Army/Company got me excited about going Airborne! 10 years later, I would have missed his b/day party to go to jump school.
Young men are immature; environment, mentors and leaders that create interest/excitement/
commitment are needed to help these youngsters develop into men!

Response by 1SG Dustin Springer made Jul 22 at 2015 5:25 AM

2015-07-22T05:25:19-04:00

SSG Panui as an ex SGL and now the Chief of Training, I have come to believe that SSD-1 will not solely prepare them for this course. PRT has been out since 2011 but yet we still have Soldiers and Sergeants that cannot execute it properly or know the commands. Some have no idea about Land Navigation, this is a direct reflection of that Soldiers leadership. NCO's today do not take pride in their responsibilities one of which is to teach, coach, and mentor these young NCO's to be successful.

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Jul 22 at 2015 5:47 AM

2015-07-22T05:47:32-04:00

Their NCOs are not training them to be NCOs.

Response by SSG Justin McCarrell made Jul 22 at 2015 5:59 AM

2015-07-22T05:59:32-04:00

I blame the soldier's leadership. If they aren't doing their part to prepare their soldiers for WLC, it was PLDC for me, then that soldier isn't going to have a real clue when it comes time to put those skills to the test. It's all too easy to pass a test on a computer but to apply things in the real world is another ball game. I've been retired since 2006 so I'm sure a lot has changed since then. Even when I was coming up in the ranks I noticed certain soldiers being promoted were nowhere near ready but because they were in the "good ole boy" league they got their rank. I had to work for mine because I went against the grain on a lot of things I felt were wrong but when my time came I was prepared because I took the time to learn those skills from my leaders. I was in the Field Artillery so knowing how to read a map was pretty important in my MOS. I found when I went to PLDC it was the non combat arms guys and gals that were having issues on basic skills. Combat Arms units are harder on their soldiers than their counterparts which is a weakness being the standard isn't the same across the board. It becomes very apparent when we get grouped in certain leadership courses that aren't specific to your everyday job as a soldier. The "I don't care" attitude infects the entire unit if the leadership shares that same sentiment.

Response by SGT Roberto Mendoza-Diaz made Jul 22 at 2015 6:33 AM

2015-07-22T06:33:36-04:00

What's SSD1?

Response by SSG Tim Ingle made Jul 22 at 2015 7:49 AM

2015-07-22T07:49:35-04:00

I went through PLDC...as An E-4.. My SGM ensured that my first line NCO made it his mission to ensure I was prepared for this school. Whether you liked it or not. If I would have failed it would reflect not only on me but partially on my NCO. Our NCO Corp. Needs to understand you are training your replacement...do you think they can handle it? Make them give classes, lead teams, give PT. Evaluate them and teach them.

Response by SGT William Howell made Jul 22 at 2015 8:15 AM

2015-07-22T08:15:40-04:00

So here is how it went down when I went to WLC. Our 1SG had 3 slots and 7 people promotable. The people that were not ready to go, didn't go. We had a million NCODPs and read the NCO handbook from one end to the other. We did battle drills and were shown how to look up stuff in FMs and ARs. So when the 3 of us got to WLC we were actually ready. There were only another 3 that that were prepared besides us out of 40 or so. The rest looked like a soup sandwich. None were ready and had no clue what they were even doing there. It made it bad for the 6 of us that were ready. We had to go at retard speed so the others could keep up. I really did not learn a single thing in WLC. The potential is there to have a outstanding class, but it just did not happen.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2015 8:34 AM

2015-07-22T08:34:06-04:00

The most frustrating thing I see is that WLC isn't as strict in certain places. Germany WLC was strict but I have to send these soldiers to a reserve WLC that is slightly different. My soldiers are prepared for how was in GE, in the end it helps them.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2015 8:57 AM

2015-07-22T08:57:58-04:00

Well SSD1, is just book knowledge; it's one thing too be told how to orient a compass but to do it practically is completely different for a lot of people.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Jul 22 at 2015 9:10 AM

2015-07-22T09:10:01-04:00

Mostly I think it's just another Check in the box and they don't really care. I have tried to tell my guys the importance of the SSD 1 but they just don't care. They want SGT stripes for the pay. When the responsibility hits when they get it. they have a culture shock and now become bad leaders because they don't want to make their buddies dislike them.

Response by SSG Keith Roberson made Jul 22 at 2015 9:48 AM

2015-07-22T09:48:56-04:00

I'm speaking solely from what my son tells me about Jr Nco's in his unit. He is an 88M stationed in Baumholder, and he tells me everyday that there are so many SP4's that constantly ride the "sickcall" train and get those profiles updated so they don't have to do PT or go on marches. To me, this is a direct lack of Sr leadership to weed these check collectors out of the Army and let the PVT's and PFC's step up and show what they can do. My son is a PFC, and he has just a little over a year in service, and just about a year on station. Not just because he's my son, but I would give him a waiver for both TIS and TIG because he can soldier better than 3/4 of the soldiers there and the NCO's continue to show favoritism to the slackers. I just try to keep him encouraged, but silently shaking my head. These SP4's do not want to take the next step, therefore are not motivated to go to any type of leadership school.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2015 10:27 AM

2015-07-22T10:27:15-04:00

I guess I need to disagree with some people here. Yes, the soldiers that fail.. should probably not have been sent my their leadership, and the fact that they were sent is a failure on the leaderships behalf.

With that being said, I felt that you need to have no knowledge attending WLC. They teach you all you need to know there. If you pay attention, you will pass. Yes, it will take some training but if you cannot pass - then I am sorry but maybe you are not retaining information in the fashion that a good leader needs to. WLC was long hours and homework, but it wasn't hard.

Response by MSG Michael Caldwell made Jul 22 at 2015 5:19 PM

2015-07-22T17:19:49-04:00

Because the NCO's have not been mentored themselves on how to prepare their soldiers on the next steps of leadership, before I retired I would talk to soldiers and was told that from their first line up weren't passing information on or setting them up for mentor ship in SSD. In some cases this was true

Response by SGT Christopher Berger made Jul 22 at 2015 7:44 PM

2015-07-22T19:44:48-04:00

So I went through WLC made Commandant's List went to ALC made Honor Graduate. To make this happen I fell back on how I felt as a Private. Humble, and a sense of purpose, all I had to do was apply myself. I found that attitude had a big part of it and some soldiers just wanted to gossip instead of focusing on the task. As for SSD 1 I could of done without it. Every course or school I have done in the ARMY gives you everything you need to succeed. Finally, I have been blessed to have outstanding leaders.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2015 8:04 PM

2015-07-22T20:04:58-04:00

Units are demanded to send soldiers to WLC every month and they must comply. Some of those soldiers are told sometimes 3 weeks before they ship out. Others because of favoritism or they can deceive their leaders into believing that they are ready. I didn't want to go to WLC in the beginning, but my experience contributed in bettering me as a soldier and a leader. Trust me, SSG, what I wasn't prepared for was caught and corrected.
Another thing I noticed is that many soldiers who are not necessarily proficient at their tasks or knowledgeable of their military occupational specialty, but good at narcissism that is so often called playing politics, are the one who are said to be future good leaders.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2015 8:00 AM

2015-07-23T08:00:04-04:00

I really wish the Army would bring back the old SP5 to SP9 system. The truth is that the Army expects leadership from every Soldier and not all Soldiers have the character to lead.

Another issue is that the Army treats NCO development as a academic matter... school is important but experience is far more important.

Response by 1SG Scott MacGregor made Jul 23 at 2015 8:40 AM

2015-07-23T08:40:36-04:00

Some of it could be the unit's mission set, or maybe it could be a lack of interest by the command to emphasize the importance of it.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2015 8:56 AM

2015-07-23T08:56:01-04:00

Because the higher-ups in their fashion of getting things done in training ultimately overlook the needs of the lower ranking office because the higher-ups in their fashion getting things done in training ultimately overlook the needs of the lower ranking individuals it seems as though they have their own agendas they only seem to want to satisfy the upper echelon so the lower ranking individuals suffer the emphasis should be on training not whether you fail or not but the core part of the training we taking seriously allowing all individuals to be able to be trained before they even hit WLC I believe it's the job of a high-ranking and Seo to train his men and women to the extent where they are qualified and sit to go to WLC not worry about his logistics his job is to train these people so they will exceed in WLC they are not there to make him look good or not He's training and utilization of his team should not be solely there to make him look good if he or she is leaving their people and training them to standard or two exceeds standards they should not worry whether or not they look good or not and that is the problem they worry about themselves looking well to their superiors even if it's hurting the training of the lower ranking individuals

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Jul 23 at 2015 9:20 AM

2015-07-23T09:20:06-04:00

BRING BACK PLDC! and make it resident like before!

Response by SGT Frank Leonardo made Jul 23 at 2015 6:39 PM

2015-07-23T18:39:57-04:00

They don't take the time to prep and they must not care. Also they can't be a good NOV without it I think but I could be wrong. Maybe they also could have poor leadership also not helping them out or letting them know what they need to do to prep. In had good leaders point me to what I needed and went through PLDC with no issues but I also took the time to ask for help and make sure On was ready to become a leader and be a good NCO

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made Jul 23 at 2015 10:44 PM

2015-07-23T22:44:12-04:00

I would agree with you SSG Montgomery, the modern Army has become a lax job and not much more. In Germany the Army is allowed to decide if they want to come to work on any given day, deploy or not and it seems that the U.S Army has started taking this approach more or less, I believe it all started when soldiers were given more rights and now its not about pride and being all you can be, but more on the lines of what can and are you willing to give me if I do this or do that. sad sad sad.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2015 11:04 PM

2015-07-23T23:04:03-04:00

It comes down to leadership and training your Joes.....However, I wholeheartedly disagree about the importance of SSD 1. It's a hands off, cop out to train your Soldiers and in my opinion, it's a waste of time. I learn best by hands on training and if it wasn't a proven method, we wouldn't do it at all. Just my .02.

Response by SSG Michael Primm made Jul 24 at 2015 8:50 AM

2015-07-24T08:50:57-04:00

NCOs not preparing them for attend school plus we have a kindler gentler Army now.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Jul 24 at 2015 9:42 PM

2015-07-24T21:42:27-04:00

WLC was the easiest school I have ever attended...well, except for a unsecured phone charger that is...

SSD1 was pretty easy as well. I always made sure my Soldiers were ready to go to ANY school (though I couldn't be a sponsor because I wasn't an NCO yet). Leadership failures should never be acceptable, that is our job is it not?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2015 8:34 AM

2015-12-08T08:34:36-05:00

Its not just WLC, you can take this all the way to ALC and SLC. Ill prepared soldiers and ill prepared leaders. The whole system needs to be revamped. Starting out with the standards of promotion and class attendance. Once people have to put their careers on hold they may have to start paying attention.Ya know just saying..

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2016 9:58 PM

2016-08-30T21:58:06-04:00

Maybe if more Soldiers were actually failed out of these courses and the chain was held accountable for it things would change. The best lessons I've learned in my life came from my most embarrassing, shameful failures.