Why are so many NCOs afraid to hold Soldiers to the standard?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Jan 2014 00:17:32 -0500

As an instructor at an NCOA I am constantly faced with soldiers and NCO's that apparently are not being held to the standard. Things like arms not at least parallel to the ground during the APFT, or ACU tops that don't come down past the bottom of the pocket opening. Hair cuts, nail length, make up, etc.... What are NCOs afraid of?

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Jan 19 at 2014 12:20 AM

SSG Robert Burns — Sun, 19 Jan 2014 00:20:24 -0500

Seems like everyone is scared to catch a case. If it's not that then seems like everyone is trying to be best friends.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jan 19 at 2014 12:27 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Sun, 19 Jan 2014 00:27:45 -0500

I don't know that anyone is scared... My guess would be that they are just sick of having to make corrections that shouldn't have to be made. The basics are so utterly lost... Especially when it comes to uniforms... I swear I have to make triple the amount of corrections on senior NCO's than I do Privates.. It can get really disheartening.

Response by CW2(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2014 12:30 AM

CW2(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Jan 2014 00:30:35 -0500

Well, I'm currently stationed on Fort Wainwright where I've been told by SFCs and even a 1SG that if you're giving a soldier on the spot corrective training: "physical conditioning", you have to get down with the soldier and if you refuse, you'll receive an Article 15.
At my previous duty station, Fort Hood, if a soldier needed to be corrected with physical conditioning, there was no problem with it being conducted. It's not that some NCOs are trying to be best friends with the junior soldiers, but it's exactly as SSG Robert Burns said, they're not trying to catch a case or get caught up while trying to enforce the standards.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2014 7:10 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Jan 2014 19:10:41 -0500

This is simple; the NCOs do not know the regulations well enough themselves to make the correction. Over the last 10 years the Army increased in size so quickly, many Soldiers (enlisted and officer) were promoted before they were ready. Standards from basic training on were relaxed and these Soldiers were not properly mentored; learning how to lead. An amazing leader during combat scenarios might not have a clue how to mentor a Soldier in garrison and a Soldier who is amazing at leadership and mentoring might be lost in combat. The Army as a whole has forgot what true standards are; instead believing a great leader is someone who preforms during deployments. Yes, I have deployed and I have served in leadership positions in many different units.

Response by SSG Benjamin Cho made Jan 19 at 2014 7:48 PM

SSG Benjamin Cho — Sun, 19 Jan 2014 19:48:22 -0500

I'm going to answer your question with another question.

Which standards are you talking about? seems like different ranks and commands had different ideas about standards. Leg army was all about uniforms and customs and really mundane paperwork. Airborne Army was all about physical fitness and high motivation and a "All the Way" attitude. Special Forces was all about PT studs who don't talk much and just do your job even when no ones there to help, and never ever argue with seniors and the 18z papa by the way I spent a lot of time at Fort Bragg and a smidget of time at the BRO and a little bit in Korea

uniform? haircut? PC talk? physical fitness? marksmanship? paperwork? customs and courtesies? proficiency at MOS? proficiency at basic tasks?

I remembered most seniors only cared about uniform and grooming (personal appearance) standards much more than they could care about accomplishing the missions and how to keep their Soldiers alive during actual combat

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2014 8:46 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Jan 2014 20:46:32 -0500

pretty simple i think, 1, they themselves got promoted too fast and do not know the standard. 2, they got promoted too fast and do not care about the standard, 3, its hard to enforce the standard and have your Soldiers "like you" so they dont do it. 4, our leaders above us fail to help us enforce discipline through UCMJ and tell us that our packets are insufficient, so when they do it repeatedly why keep trying if its pointless... but mostly i think its a combination of 3 of them, because they got promoted too fast and/ or just dont give a shizzle and would rather have their Soldiers like them so they can go drinking etc.. its rather quite annoying and im glad you posted the question. It will be interesting to see the various answers/ excuses. Ah,, and of course if you dare,, I mean DARE correct the opposite sex, you can only hope that god is on your defense team for the b.s. EO/ SHARP complaint you might get threatened with... I see that alot as well both first hand and second hand.

Response by SFC James Baber made Jan 19 at 2014 8:58 PM

SFC James Baber — Sun, 19 Jan 2014 20:58:17 -0500

I am going to reiterate and support many of the prior statements about people being afraid of "catching a case", part of that mentality is fault of senior leadership not currently but prior to OIF/OEF when they gave the power to the PVTs and took it from the NCOs to do their jobs. Next the friendship thing, that is the NCOs fault, when I 1st came in during the early 80s, my NCOs were on a friendly basis, not necessarily friends, but they took care of us and looked out for us as per our safety, ensuring we weren't abused by others and doing the right thing, but they also enforced the standards and made sure that as Soldiers we knew the difference between being friendly and doing what our NCOs conveyed per orders, taskings, etc. This leads into one of the problems with many NCOs today, a majority have been promoted too fast in the name of filling slots and trying to give incentive to retain, which is what has caused this issue, because most have not had proper mentoring, teaching or time to learn how to be an NCO like most of us old dogs from the pre-9/11 phase or even pre-Clinton phase, as I think it started to show itself as a result of the RIF of the mid-90s. We currently have many E6/E7s with less than 6-9 years, which less than 15 years ago was an anomaly, and we have E5s with barely 2-3 years in, with each of those ranks that type of timeframe is no where near enough for those positions as far and knowledge and military maturity no matter how much some on here may argue that they are mature enough for their rank, no you aren't not in reality for what many are doing regularly with standards and misdeeds being conducted.

A decade plus of two wars has also had a major effect on the standards as well, while I am not a big advocate of enforcing minimal grooming or uniform standards in a combat zone, the issue is that many of these Soldiers and the young NCOs have been to the combat zones more than they have been in garrison so that has not allowed them time enough to have the mindset of what is differential between combat and garrison, this is one of the big reasons to not have the accelerated promotions and fast track promotions of the past decade, not saying some of the 6/7/8/9 NCO rank promotions have not been warranted for actions during deployments and in performances while being forced into leadership positions from fatalities of comrades, but they have again not had the time experience or mentoring/training they needed for the rank and positions.

I want to re-hit another aspect of the "catching a case" issue, with the political environment currently from RIF and the media coverage of improper behavior, the environment has been created that you are guilty and have to prove your innocence instead of innocent until proven guilty as it should be, so all it takes is someone making a claim whether true or not and an NCO or Officer (yeh right) career could be over with, so many are staying clear of anything that could affect their career instead of doing the hard right over the ignoring easy wrong. And the young NCOs are not being mentored or trained to do the right thing or how to be a good NCO because many of those that should be doing the aforementioned duties are worried about losing their jobs so if they don't do what is right by their subordinates it sets everyone up for failure, 1st the junior by not receiving the proper mentoring and training that could cause them to be the one being cut by RIF to the senior who are not doing what they know to be right to keep them from being RIF'd and replaced by their younger counterparts, it is a double edged sword for everyone all the way around.

The whole system is broke right now and until we do some house cleaning in Congress and the senior leadership in DOD, and make the cuts at both those levels it is only going to continue to get worse in all aspects of what we have been discussing.

Thanks to all who have listened to my long and detailed rant and dissemination of and old Soldier with 27 years of seeing the system go through many changes in the last 3 decades.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2014 9:22 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Jan 2014 21:22:06 -0500

I believe it's mainly because NCOs are too laid back. I dont care what the rank is- CSM, SFC, LTC - I will tactfully & respectfully make a correction when I see it and I will respectfully correct myself if a Soldier corrected me no matter what their rank is. The problem I see mostly is like what others posted; too many friendships between Soldiers and NCOs. For example, I had an NCO in my platoon that got reduced in rank for many things but mainly because of fraternization i.e. encouraging Soldiers to not stand at parade rest when addressing NCOs, partying with them on weekends, and undermining other NCOs in front of his Soldiers. This lead to serious issues that had to be cleaned up and made my job harder on a daily basis when correcting Soldiers in my Platoon however caught up with this NCO quickly and cost him his Stripes.

I correct Soldiers everywhere that I see wrong and it's a shame that the ones that are the biggest problem is other E-5 sergeants or NCOs that outrank me and tell me to "Stay in my Place"- This is something I just take to my 1SG with their Rank and name. I even had a PSG seriously tell me I need to stop correcting Soldiers that aren't mine because it could lead to problems if their NCOs find out! I feel if an NCO is not willing to make a correction when it is needed, whether it's because he's "too busy" or he's afraid of the feedback or because he simple doesn't care, then that NCO is demonstrating toxic leadership and setting himself and his Soldiers up for failure. As leaders you can't expect what you don't inspect.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2014 10:01 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Jan 2014 22:01:09 -0500

In my opinion,many NCOs would rather seem like the "cool" or "laid back" sergeant, rather than the hardcore "super hooah" type. In the end when we NCOs fail to uphold the standards and enforce discipline we are not only hurting ourselves, but our soldiers as future leaders, and really the army as a whole.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2014 12:41 AM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Jan 2014 00:41:36 -0500

Not sure of afraid, more like uncaring is what is happening. Reading some of the comments here, you may get a kick out of this. White socks in boots, never in garrison but often seen in combat for many standards are lessened. During one engagement at a FOB in Sangin, Afghanistan, I was standing on HESCO barriers engaging the enemy on line with many other Marines. The battalion SgtMaj was walking up and down the perimeter checking Marine's socks during the firefight and questioning Marines who were caught wearing white socks if that helped them shoot better then proceeded to tell them to fix themselves, which the Marines responded and complied after the engagement. That's good shit!

Response by SFC Paul Garza made Jan 20 at 2014 5:13 AM

SFC Paul Garza — Mon, 20 Jan 2014 05:13:34 -0500

SFC,

My first duty station was with the 101st Airborne Division. I often tell Soldiers that I was born in San Antonio but I grew up at Fort Campbell. The standard is the standard. One 1SG I use to have would always say, "Don't take things personal, It's not personal, It's business". I hold that to close to my heart. There are times when I am corrected by Soldiers when my boot lace comes out or there may be a string hanging off my uniform. I applaud those Soldiers for having the courage to say something.

"Hold me to the Standard", I say to them. If I am wrong then I am wrong. I think that as NCOs we need to remember that there is nothing wrong with a little professional tough love. Some don't want to be the one to toss a stone in a pond and make waves but regulations don't change. The change is in those that hold the standard or do not hold the standard.

I just think that somewhere along the lines friendships have clouded better judgement. I don't want friends, I want someone to ensure that I am a Noncommissioned Offer and keep the Corps the Backbone.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2014 10:43 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Jan 2014 22:43:26 -0500

I understand that standards have to be met but I want to believe that we all have a job to do while at work and I think nco's focus on job training and job standards more than if my nails are a little to long that day. Does it really matter! I think they need to revamp some of these ridiculous standards anyway

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Jan 22 at 2014 7:49 AM

1SG Michael Blount — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 07:49:57 -0500

Like you, SFC, I feel like I'm bailing against the tide of slack NCOs not holding Soldiers to standard. I remember walking out of the PX one day past a SPC and PFC, neither one of whom even said as much as a "good morning 1SG". Perhaps they were misinformed that the PX is some sort of safety zone. Somebody forgot to tell them it was me they dissed. I believe I got my point across after some well chosen words of counsel and advice and don't think those two Soldiers will repeat that stunt ever again.

Response by CPT Mike M. made Jan 22 at 2014 8:04 AM

CPT Mike M. — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:04:53 -0500

At risk of getting up on a political soap box, I'd have to chalk it up to Hollywood and politics and liberal agendas making us so much more of a peaceful, politically correct, non-confrontational country that people are afraid of that confrontation that happens when one person has to call another out on something wrong.

Response by SGT John Rice made Jan 22 at 2014 10:14 AM

SGT John Rice — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:14:53 -0500

As far as I can see it, most of the problems holding NCOs to standards could be traced back to one person. That is the CO of the unit. I was stationed in a MP unit, that certain NCOs and/or enlisted were the CO's favorites, and to do anything to those people was professional suicide even for the First Sergeant. I had a E4 that was extremely disobedient, and disrespectful but since he was one of the CO's favorites, he was untouchable. The CO wanted to rewrite the E4's performance Eval because it was unfavorable. I respectfully refused. I seriously doubt that the eval ever left the CO's office though.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2014 2:12 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 14:12:17 -0500

Well, that's easy females and Privates rule the Army... I say this because, try correcting most females and you as the NCO may be standing on the carpet for harrassment or my favorite, an EO complaint. As an NCO I feel females should have an appearance of a female, so there is no confusion of the gender... That's just one thing, there are more issues with that but its too much to discuss so moving on... Why is it you can't call a private by his rank? How sensitive is the Army going to be? We are the Army not the boyscouts. Man up!! As far as I know it is still a volunteer Army and if its too hard then don't join. Nonetheless, If we as NCOs cannot discipline Soldiers without standing on the carpet ourselves then this is what happens... No discipline given and No discipline recieved.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2014 2:24 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 14:24:31 -0500

When I was recently at ALC at an installation where AIT was being held in the same area. We were warned to be very careful when addressing or correcting the PVTs because many NCOs had been reprimanded in the past. It becomes a CYA thing rather than maintaining the standard, which only enforces them doing the wrong thing.

I do not see any issue with on the spot corrections. If you see something that I am doing or about my uniform that is not in compliance... Please correct me!! Unfortunately, a lot of people get their feelings hurt. I have gotten in verbal disagreements over silly things like hair style or nail polish. It is just stupid if you ask me. Take the correction, look it up and if I was wrong to correct you than tell me and we can both learn from it. I see it as looking out for each more than negative criticism.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2014 9:57 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 21:57:19 -0500

When I was a Drill Sergeant a couple years ago, I was often on my toes. While I made numerous corrections on a daily basis, my career was always on the line. I chewed butt, but boy, one private made a complaint, and their you are on the carpet trying to explain why you made a statement such as female come here, private go get a battle buddy. Two words that could gravely affect your career if the chain of command caught wind of it. When you arrive you are told be careful where you corrected Soldiers because you may get in trouble. Or, DS getting offended because you are yelling at their Soldier. I'm not about coddling and I have never understood that. But, if you asked my Soldiers, boy o boy were they disciplined( but so did every other DS that you wanted to choke sometimes because you couldn't understand why they were not at parade rest, or parade pretty, or crazy female hair styles). I realized that their are just some chains of command, that look at numbers, and fear for their careers (understandably so as I did) but I did them anyway. In my current battalion, so many people know me because I am such a standard enforcer. Do I worry as much? NO. Location of duty station is everything. And a chain of command that supports you. That their is KEY-- ESSENTIAL to good order and discipline. And if you are top of that chain, don't just talk about it, be about it. BE KNOW DO.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2014 10:27 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 22:27:31 -0500

I normally make corrections when I spot a soldier not meeting the standard, but sometimes I feel like its a losing battle.

Example: I correct a soldier for having his hands in his pockets. The soldier gives me attitude and I feel some PT is in order. Then his squad leader walks by wondering what is going on (as he should). The squad leader tells his soldier to move out and tells me that he will handle it. Later that day, I see the same soldier with his hands in his pockets.

At that point, there is nothing I can say to that soldier because his squad leader took that respect/authority away from me.

What happened to NCOs sticking together and, if they have a problem with what another NCO is doing, pulling them to the side at a later time?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2014 11:56 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 23:56:35 -0500

As NCOs, some of us need to stop being buddy buddy with our Soldiers and start being leaders and mentors and set the proper example based on the regulations.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2014 10:51 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jan 2014 10:51:07 -0500

Easy, they don't even hold themselves to those standards so how can they hold others to them. As an NCO they should be leading and setting the example, you can't expect someone to do something that you yourself are not doing .

Response by SGT(P) Kenneth Jones made Jan 25 at 2014 11:20 AM

SGT(P) Kenneth Jones — Sat, 25 Jan 2014 11:20:40 -0500

Its not that they are afraid to hold soldier to standards more like how can I hold them to standards when I cant even hold my self to standards. I have seen alot of soldiers get thier e5 and e6 and dawn this new attitude "I do as I please and I do as I want". So when it actually comes down to dress right dress now a days there is no more. Unlike what the nco creed states I put my soldiers needs before mine seldome will you see this the nco of today is not the same nco that it once was. I may not be an nco but I am of old school and was ashamed of how bct became no more then summer camp. Granted we were pushed but not to the point where we knew we had given the last ounce we had and then some. They relied on ones own self to push. But todays ncos learn the creed but when they get tne rank of an nco the creed goes out the window. So its not fear they have its I dont care about its about me attitude. And yes some that read this may say bs because I am not an nco but if you saw me on a day today you would think other wise I am always first in last out I make sure my ncos have ample time to finish thier task so they dont have to do mine. I put all others before my own personal needs. I do what is fair by the soldier and what the army expects.. so lets see what other nco's have to think and have them watch other nco's as well as their own and see how many actually go by what they had sworn too when they took the rank.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2014 3:49 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:49:29 -0500

Good Afternoon SFC Grudzinski:

I believe the answer to that question is because there are so many NCOs that are not living the Army standards themselves, so you can't help others with on the spot corrections if you are not setting the example yourself.

You have to live the code in uniform and out and doing that requires courage to do the right thing always, being an example and leading by example has fallen to just doing enough to get paid and stay out of trouble. The pride is gone and those of us that have made so many corrections and stood proudly have retired are now retiring!

Warmest regards,

MSG Baisden

A Loving, Praying Mother & Heartbroken Grandmother

http://www.facebook.com/BaisdensHealthzone

Baisden's Healthzone

Baisden's Healthzone mission is stopping OBESITY in children and young adults and with your support...

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2014 9:48 AM

1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jan 2014 09:48:43 -0500

I feel some NCO's are slacking in their duties to uphold the standard, because this new Army NCO core that we have now didn't come through the era of inspections at formation, PLDC for us older Soldiers that actually gave you a great foundation of what be...know...and do really means, basic training that instilled a little fear of knowing if I don't get it right my SGT wasn't going to be as pleasant acting towards me.

If they don't know how to enforce standards is one thing but just passing them by when you know it's wrong is just being lazy or they don't think it worth their time to correct it.

A CSM told me "it's not you against the Soldier, it's the Soldier against the standard"...Soldiers now seem to think we are harrasing them when we correct them.

Soldiers aren't afraid of UCMJ actions unless you send the message that we won't tolerate their mess hard and consistently.

We have a sensitive Army now and it's making us older Soldiers do one of two things.

1. Retire

2. Adapt our approach to meet the current climate we now operate within, then retire

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2014 8:53 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 27 Jan 2014 08:53:02 -0500

In a nutshell, they are afraid of reported for harassment by the soldiers. They take advantage of programs like EO, and the Command Open Door policy. We have lost our power it feels like

Response by SFC Rich Carey made Jan 27 at 2014 9:23 AM

SFC Rich Carey — Mon, 27 Jan 2014 09:23:57 -0500

The reason I think you find NCOs walk on by and not make corrections, or
hold their Soldiers to standards is most people don't like confrontation.
(Although some thrive on it)

Think about a time when you made a correction, how were
you feeling prior, during, and after? Your heart pumps a little faster, your
muscles become tense, you restricted your breathing, and so on. And when we
make the correction we go into defense mode.

We don't like challenging someone because:

1. You might become the bad guy

2. You may not know the standards completely

3. You want to be the friend

4. You fear the retaliation making the correction

5. You may not have the tools to effectively convey
your message

This is a topic that always plagues the military.
Regardless when you were in the military, you could/can always find examples
personnel not being held to standards. (This isn't only in the military it happens in the civilian world too)

Response by CSM Michael Poll made Feb 14 at 2014 5:20 PM

CSM Michael Poll — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 17:20:14 -0500

THis is an easy answer, THere are LEADERS and there are LIKERS. The LIKER is the guy or girl who wants to be the "cool" NCO. THey want the rank but do not want to be the leader to set and enforce the standards. SImple difference. We need to get back to LEADERSHIP, the Soldiers, may bitch, but we all joined the Military because of the structure, the discipline. SOldiers appreciate GOOD leadership, fair and just. If you can be fair and uphld standards across the board you will be respected. THis is more important than being one of the guys.

Response by SSgt George Brown made Feb 15 at 2014 9:25 PM

SSgt George Brown — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 21:25:19 -0500

They have not been properly trained.

Response by SSG Jason Greene made Feb 20 at 2014 1:39 AM

SSG Jason Greene — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 01:39:56 -0500

I just think soldiers just get out of hand. By no means am I perfect, but I make corrections when needed. Im a SSG currently deployed, and I can't tell you how many times I go to make a correction to one of these jokers with his hands in his pockets, and he's talking to another SSG, and SFC who all have their hands in their pockets looking crazy. This is just one example of many, but I just think we need to get back to basics on this. If you wanna look like a douche, go join the Air Force.

Response by SFC Christopher Walker, MAOM, DSL made Apr 15 at 2014 2:11 PM

SFC Christopher Walker, MAOM, DSL — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 14:11:17 -0400

It's plain and simple. Some NCOs are afraid of being NCOs. They want the pay but not the additional responsibility. NCOs set and enforce standards. PERIOD! Every on-the-spot correction should be made and standards should be enforced without question.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2014 1:40 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Jul 2014 13:40:15 -0400

Too MANY soldiers are being promoted into the ranks of NCOs that don't deserve it. There are plenty of them that are promoted based on an education outside of the military that has no bearing on their performance as a leader of soldiers. This is where it starts. They don't have experience dealing with others as a leader, so they don't understand what their responsibilities are. I've seen a few newly promoted NCO's still hanging out with their buddies during work hours, acting the same as before. Then when it comes time to discipline them, this NCO doesn't have it in them, nor will the soldier take it seriously. On top of that, soldiers are given the benefit of the doubt over the word of an NCO. Ran into this a few times with my soldiers. They are willing to do the wrong thing no matter what you tell them, but when it comes time to take responsibility, they blame it on their NCO. So a multitude of problems have been pointed out. Can anything be done about it? That is the question that we should be asking.

Response by SSG Ed Mikus made Jul 17 at 2014 6:52 PM

SSG Ed Mikus — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 18:52:13 -0400

there are 2 reasons form my experience:

1. If the solider complains no one has the NCO's back.

2. no one showed or taught the NCO how to properly make corrections.

I have had many conversations with peers about this topic, mostly when it comes to correcting seniors, but those same NCO's either do not correct juniors or do so in a disrespectful way no matter the circumstance.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2014 9:39 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 21:39:57 -0400

I think that in some cases it's a matter of people being accustom to a more lax environment overseas where standards aren't quite so strictly enforced. In other cases I think it has to do with being afraid of hurting someone's poor little feels and getting slapped by the mighty hand of EO.

Also, I've seen a number of cases where a lower enlisted screws up and gets verbally corrected and then said lower enlisted goes and cries to the 1SG or CO and the correcting NCO gets his/her butt handed to them and the lower enlisted in the wrong walks free and clear.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2014 11:10 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 23:10:20 -0400

I have a few responses:

1. They were not held to that standard or worse yet they do not hold themselves to that standard and often fail that standard (ie: ht/wt, regulation boots, etc.).

2. They do not read and therefore do not know the regulations.

3. They have no backing from higher to enforce the standard and are sometimes cut at the knees when higher allows the Soldiers to not perform to standard, higher does not support them when they try to enforce (ie: they do not take rank away or article 15, etc. for failure to obey order etc.).

4. Nobody else is doing it so why should I?

5. How can I enforce it if the 1SG or CSM or ..... does not meet the standards. How many leaders do you know that do not meet ht/wt or pass an APFT? We have all had a bad day or a bad tape/height where we were shorted an inch or something of the sort. However, there are leaders who never passed in years and yet are allowed to be in leadership roles. It is hard to enforce ht/wt when your 1SG or CSM is 100 lbs overweight. Try explaining that to Joe.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 18 at 2014 3:06 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 15:06:12 -0400

I think its partially a failure as senior NCO's to mentor our junior NCO's on how to properly hold Soldiers to the standard. What I mean by this is that we need to teach them to not be afraid of the confrontation that on the spot corrections can cause and further more how to communicate those corrections when enforcing the standard. I have been there myself when I was fresh promoted E-5, I didnt want to make my friends who I was now in charge of or create tention right away. The best ways to change this is my mind is to educate our new NCO's right away on what the standard is, make sure we (senior leaders) are enforcing those standards as well and educate our NCO's on how/when to make the corrections based on the scenario or situation. Whether you agree with all the standards or not it is still our duty to enforce those standards, they are there for a reason.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2014 10:21 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Jul 2014 22:21:23 -0400

1. EO/Descrimination complaint

2. SHARP

3. Hurt feelings complaint

4. No support for the NCO from his/her superiors or peers

Not necessarily in that order...

Response by MSG Robert James made Jul 25 at 2014 2:52 PM

MSG Robert James — Fri, 25 Jul 2014 14:52:00 -0400

why would you not feel the sodiers comeing from a long mission take care of you back leaders , there your life line and willl follow you any were because you care for the welfair and it will show

Response by SGT(P) Oliver Freeman III made Sep 1 at 2014 10:40 PM

SGT(P) Oliver Freeman III — Mon, 01 Sep 2014 22:40:20 -0400

In no way I feel like I'm afraid of being a leader. I think I do more than my share of being a Non-Comm before my job as a Chaplain Assistant. For those who know me I don't have any Soldiers, but my point of view is that all the Soldiers are Mine. I do my best to take care of all of them. When they need to be straightened out they listen because I lead by example. If a Soldier gives me an excuse about civilian ed, doesn't work, I did it it's called not sleeping. Military Education is no excuse as well, I did it , proving myself in MANY boards. PT (300 Here) all around ok Soldier.

Living the NCO creed is the beginning, but a problem is not that all NCO's can't do that, some have different reasons, but repercussions from doing the job is sometimes not worth the breath. I tell Soldiers if this is not your way (Military) Get out on your own terms and do better with your life. Not everyone is cut out to be in the military, for those who want to stay in you have 3 ways: 1 Winning, doing what your supposed to do. 2 Lose the game and lose rank, get kicked out for whatever reason or 3 Quit on your own terms, BUT doing the right things to be a better person than they were before coming in.

Response by PO2 Tony Casler made Sep 2 at 2014 8:45 AM

PO2 Tony Casler — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 08:45:01 -0400

Retaliation. Toward the end of my enlistment back in 2006 I had two of my junior PO2 approach me and ask me to deal with a situation in which one of our PO3 had been coming back from liberty drunk and touching them inappropriately, sitting in their laps, etc. This was obviously unacceptable so I called him in for a counseling session. DADT was still in effect and I didn't want to go too far down that road without giving him a chance to correct himself so I wrote up the counseling as inappropriate behavior toward superior POs without detailing the sexual nature and advised him to cut back on the drinking.

That should have been the end of it, but instead he went to our PO1 and filed an EO complaint against me claiming that I was targeting him because he is Hispanic. That complaint didn't get far, so he filed another claiming that I sexually harassed him. During the course of that investigation I got into some heated private discussions with out PO1 who hit me with charges of insubordination, the PO2s who asked me to help them claimed no knowledge of anything so I got hit with false official statements for the counseling as well.

A clear case of misconduct by a subordinate ended with me standing in front of the Captain getting my name run through the dirt, losing a month's pay and having my ability to lead undermined to the point where I had to turn over all of my responsibilities to the junior PO2s and essentially do nothing for the remaining 8 months of my enlistment.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Sep 2 at 2014 3:14 PM

SGT Bryon Sergent — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 15:14:49 -0400

Well, I have seen in the National Guard that when you do correct someone and then they get butt hurt and go to there squad leader or team leader they tell you to mind you own business, or why are you tell my troop what to do. I have also seen that when you do say or do something that the soldier goes to their buddy that they work with which might be there platoon sergeant or there LT and it goes away. Even if it is a actual AR-15 offense they do nothing to retain the "number" so that they can keep the soldier in. I have noticed that a lot of the authority has been taken away from the NCO. If I tell a soldier to get a haircut and he says roger and then he doesn't I go to the team leader in charge and says that he's mine and Ill take care of it and nothing is ever said to the soldier after that. I am called an ass$$ because I try and keep them in the standard but never them wanting to do the right thing and following the regs.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 4:53 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 16:53:41 -0400

It has a lot to do with leaders just wanting to make as many friends as possible, kind of like Facebook. If everybody loves you, then you're probably not pushing your people hard enough. It's not a popularity contest.

Response by SSG Ronald Rollins made Sep 15 at 2015 7:41 PM

SSG Ronald Rollins — Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:41:44 -0400

They are afraid of losing friends or getting them mad at them. Before I retired I seen many NCOs more concerned about friendship then anything else. They gave up their morals, integrity, self respect, and so much more. I could not understand it. They did things that higher up seen and knew were wrong. They said nothing. Case in point. Unit PT test. Had a so called high speed NCO doing push ups. Incorrectly. No one said a word. I spoke up. He was paast 10 so it all counts. By my count he failed. It was for promotion. If he passed he would get promoted. I talked to the SFC in charge and told them he failed. I was told to shut the f*&k up. I then went to the 1SG and CSM. I finally had to go the the BN XO. I was not very well liked but did hat I thought was right. Caught hell for the next 6 months.

Response by SFC Wayne Robinson made Sep 15 at 2015 11:44 PM

SFC Wayne Robinson — Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:44:25 -0400

the reason for this lack of standards can be attributed to the lack of discipline in society.
Young people tend to bring in things from the outside and if not corrected by a professional will continue on with the society traits they are used to.
The services should not be aligned with the civilian sector but must be aligned with discipline from within.
When you enter the Military the society stays out and military begins. sadly though what a young person does on their off time often influences what they do during duty. they have to learn to separate the two. leave society out of the picture while in uniform.