Why are so many people in the military have a disrespectful?

2019-07-06T12:57:58-04:00

A lot of people will take this as I am being disrespectful but I am sure you have herd it well to many times. I have been reading a lot of questions on here about how soliders have been getting treated and wanted to ask it just me or am I the only one who sees this. All I hear is UCMJ this and counseling that. I have seen someone the other day not having the trailer feet down while it was being pulled by a lmtv and I told the soliders why I stopped him and helped him correct it but thought if someone else saw that I wonder would they be getting their assed chewed.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Jul 6 at 2019 1:30 PM

2019-07-06T13:30:20-04:00

Problem is this. What you read on here has to be taken with a grain of salt and a deal of skepticism.
No one LIKES to have UCMJ action, either done to or done by them. UCMJ is not a goto but rather a forced to situation.
A member that relays a story here does so from a perspective. It however, does not relay the whole of the story or indeed all of the facts involved. This is typically the case where only one perspective is given.

The sm got a UCMJ action. They feel it was undeserved and lay out the reasons. They omit the fact that this was not the first time they had done something and had gotten off with warnings and stern counselings before, only this time it crossed a line and a clearer message needed to be sent to wake the SM up.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Jul 6 at 2019 1:43 PM

2019-07-06T13:43:01-04:00

I think more and more stress and frustration creeps in to our ranks. The best thing I did as a leader was decide to build others up when they made a mistake and save the ass chewing for rare occasions, making the impact of those much more effective.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jul 6 at 2019 1:51 PM

2019-07-06T13:51:22-04:00

Questions are not disrespectful, attitudes and an unwillingness to listen and learn are. UCMJ for a good leader is normally the last straw after trying other means, but with that said UCMJ is written so there is no excuses, 2nd tries, 2nd chances period, Read it yourself, Its like the 12 commandments- break 1 and you are guilty period and no migrating circumstances till time for punishment. That why to push on counseling, School of the Soldier and other programs NCO's have to correct failings without crucifixion on UCMJ.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Jul 6 at 2019 2:01 PM

2019-07-06T14:01:53-04:00

I think part of the problem is that our services have gotten away from the professionalism it once had. It's gotten lazy. Now before someone pulls out a soapbox, let me explain.

Used to be a troop messes up, say they accidentally brought a piece of brass or live ammo back from the range, they would be taken to the side and corrected. The NCO would dog the crap out of them and pound the point home that they screwed up, and that they need to pay attention, check and double check and not assume. Case closed, forward march, done. And that would be the end of it unless a repeat performance happened on that units watch by that same troop.

Today, that same situation results in at minimum a counseling statement and that is best case scenario. Common case is a summarized Article 15. Harsh but not career ending. If CoC are truly feeling it then they can press for a full on Article 15. The troop screwed up, granted, but was that necessary when an NCO could have stepped in, stepped up and mentored the troop. The lesson would still be learned.

I do see the military being quicker to jump to regs infractions on things and maybe that is a negative, or maybe it is an adjustment from decades prior of lax enforcement.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Jul 6 at 2019 3:25 PM

2019-07-06T15:25:46-04:00

SPC Private RallyPoint Member How about we use you personal antidote as an example." I have seen someone the other day not having the trailer feet down while it was being pulled by a lmtv and I told the soliders why I stopped him and helped him correct it but thought if someone else saw that I wonder would they be getting their assed chewed."

From your very limited perspective, a junior enlisted driving by, no prior knowledge of the SM, the unit, the equipment ... Your actions were personnel and on balance for the information you had. Well done for lending a hand.

Now, why might you have seen that same SM, truck and trailer getting his ass chewed on a different day?
Well perhaps because the NCO that stopped him, was his Section leader had just briefed the section that morning about ensuring the prime mover and trailer were ready for movement, a extra and specific briefing because the unit had just had a trailer damaged last week in a like failure to follow instructions , guidance and regulations.

Or Perhaps you see a CO grade Captain chewing that drivers ass and wounder why...not knowing that the unit is in deployment phase, that prime mover and its trailer are critical cargo in route to rail head, and the unit has a very small window to be at rail head, get equipment loaded that morning and any delays or equipment damage is mission critical.

Or you see a CO 1SG quitely , but firmly telling the driver and the TC, they needed to fix the issue, get the equipment into the closets parking lot and repot to his officer for counseling and part 1 of UCMJ....BECAUSE they had just damaged the company's trailer that morning when they failed to inspect prior to trying to depart the MP, the company XO had to go sign for another units trailer just so they could get ammo picked up on time...something that was now going to be late in any case as new driver and a TC had to be tasked due this dud pair screwing up again.

Perhaps you often see answers being given here by leaders with a wealth of knowledge and experience you don't yet have..or they are answering from a perspective of what can happen...based on policy, regulations or law.. Not the exceptions to those things a good leader might make when the SM standing in front of them is generally a good Soldier, made an honest mistake that is recoverable as no one was hurt, no damage to equipment, yet because the mistake could have caused both its worth a stern lecture, a general counseling statement to back up the conversation..where you the friendly and helpful SPC would have just handed them a lug wrench from your vehicle BII and watched as they tightened the remaining 3 of 8 lug nuts that had not yet fallen off.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Jul 6 at 2019 4:49 PM

2019-07-06T16:49:08-04:00

I understand your dilemma. A couple things to remember for as you grow in the Army:
1) For some Soldiers, a gentle correction doesn't stick, but a hardcore butt-chewing sinks in. Others are the exact opposite. Usually, an individual Soldier's leaders have a far better idea of what the Soldier responds to than an outsider.

1a) That in no way means you should stop helping out your peers.

2) In today's Army if it isn't on paper, it didn't happen. "I told PVT snuffy 17 times not to do that," doesn't fly if none of those 17 times is documented. A gentle correction may be all that is needed. But if the correction isn't documented and the deficiency occurs again, then you are starting from square one.

3) As others have mentioned, UCMJ is a last option. However many other options NCOs used to have (trip to the woodline, smoking, mild embarassment, etc.) have been removed from the arsenal (not saying that it is a bad thing - they were removed for a reason). This means that we get to the last option of UCMJ quicker.

You appear to already be doing the right thing. Your approach was spot on, especially when dealing with peers or even juniors who are not in you unit. Keep it up.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 7 at 2019 2:23 AM

2019-07-07T02:23:31-04:00

There are three sides to every story, what he said, what they said, and how it really is. Use that filter when reading the stories in Rally Point. When people post problems they will almost always leave out their own wrong doing because if that was exposed their leadership would be vindicated in their actions.