Why are so many young soldiers leaving the Army?

2015-03-13T10:34:10-04:00

In my limited Army experience I have noticed that many soldiers (mostly PFC or SPC) are getting out of the Army or are very unsure about reenlisting. I have also noticed many of the soldiers from that same demographic attempting to receive a medical discharge or are not concerned about being chartered for height and weight or failing their APFT. Is this normal? If not what are or should leaders be doing to fix this problem?

I personally believe that some of these soldiers do not realize all of the benefits that the Army provides for them and, despite some of the less desirable tasks, how good they have it. In many ways they are better taken care of in the Army than they would be in the civilian sector.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2015 10:14 PM

2015-03-13T22:14:59-04:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that some of these Soldiers don't realize all the benefits the Army provides and how good they have it. I saw that during my time on active duty. Was I going to get rich serving in the Army as an enlisted man and a warrant officer? Nope. But I was smart enough to take a hard look at my options and realize that the Army was a very good choice.

These days, I see more and more younger folks - not just in the military, but civilians as well - who think nothing of quitting a job and doing nothing. How they expect to live, I don't know. I guess their plan is to live "with" (or "off") Mom and Dad ... or on the dole.

For the military folks, we can all be retention specialists by reminding those who are considering leaving about the benefits of staying. The Army is not for everybody, but it's a great option for many.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2015 10:17 PM

2015-03-13T22:17:54-04:00

My wife did... That's why she married me...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2015 10:29 PM

2015-03-13T22:29:31-04:00

This isn't new. Many of these soldiers simply lack the initative to exceed the standard and establish goals that will profit them through military service.

As a former recruiter, I can certify that this is not simply an Army issue, but a generational issue. These young Soldiers often do not take pride in what they are doing, they feel like they are wasting their time, or feel like the economy is better so they can find a better job.

The problem is that they do not have a firm grasp on the economy, they dont understand how the benefits translate into compensation, and many of them figure they can just go back to living with mom and dad. The Army as a profession is not ingrained into these Soldiers at their inception in a way that they understand. A big problem in the example is that when they are chaptered for height and weight or APFT failure they are also separated with a separation bonus which surely doesn't serve as a deterrent.

What I can tell you is that, I cant tell you how many times on recruiting duty I had guys come in with their DD214 asking what I could do to get them back in.

The Solution is that our leaders Army wide need to take a direct interest in these young Soldiers the same way we were a decade ago during our development. That personal mentorship has the potential of showing them the light.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2015 10:37 PM

2015-03-13T22:37:40-04:00

Believe it or not Captain is actually the highest separation point in the Army, not junior enlisted completing their initial contract. I wish I could find the article I read about this, but on to the topic at hand. I can tell you my unit struggles with retention at the junior enlisted/NCO level as well. I've lost 3 E5 team leaders in the last 90 days due to ETS. I think in general the first enlistment contract is where Soldiers "feel out" whether Army life is for them or not. Military service is not for everyone.

Command climate and leadership also plays a big role in my opinion. I served in a unit where two E6s chose to ETS due to the Company Commander. A unit lacking Esprit de Corps and unit cohesion is not going to retain good Soldiers.

Finally, I think the drawdowns and transition back to a peacetime army play a role as well. I have had Soldiers flat out tell me during retention interviews that they're ETSing because there are no deployments on the horizon. I would imagine it's the same way for a lot of Soldiers on active duty. They joined during a time of war and are not able to participate. Couple that with the stigma of a slick right sleeve in our force right now and I understand why they choose to ETS.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2015 10:40 PM

2015-03-13T22:40:00-04:00

This is not just an Army question. It is a concern for all the services. My humble opinion is we have a crop of mid-career NCOs that are looking out for number 1 and not mentoring their subordinates appropriately. Some are too quick to the paperwork and not taking the time to know their troops. Or, when they see everyone gets top marks on their performance report (slug or high speed), they lose faith in the system. Just my nickel's worth.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Mar 13 at 2015 10:51 PM

2015-03-13T22:51:50-04:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member it happened in the 90's too. It is a fight to make the good Soldiers keep interest in the Army during a draw down filled with uncertainty. As a leader it is one of your jobs to get those Soldiers interested in continuing their service. If successful you can add "Local Level Marketing" to your resume when it is your turn to make that choice.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Mar 13 at 2015 10:55 PM

2015-03-13T22:55:24-04:00

Sir, I have led that horse all the way to the watering hole but that horse refuses to drink. There is only so much I can do and say.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2015 11:36 PM

2015-03-13T23:36:14-04:00

So as a soldier who came off active duty after 4 years on active duty, I realized that I had overly idealized civilian life. I went to college on the g.i. bill and lasted a year before returning to the active army. I have now been in for over 13 years total service and see a lot of what I had delt with when I was younger in these junior soldiers, a lack of understanding of the bigger picture of the army's benefits and future. Getting them to see the next move is difficult but not undo able.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2015 12:19 AM

2015-03-14T00:19:57-04:00

There is a lot that I believe goes into this, and I'm not going to hit every point, but I will hit one point that I believe is one of the biggest causes of what you are concerned about. To put it simply; it has become the "cool" thing to do to resent and spite the military. There is a social stigma that discourages E-1 through E-4 age group most specifically. The majority of that group now believes that staying in, enjoying the good times and brushing off the bad, and considering your future from a financial and professional aspect, is taboo. Generally your E-1 to E-4 age group is 18-23 (ish) statistically speaking this is a very impressionable and "like minded" age group. This is also where the bulk of your man power is in every branch. So consider what happens when you take the bulk of your military branch, at a very impressionable age, and add a wide spread idea in their heads that says the military is "bullshit" it's a waste of time, it isn't what they signed up for, college would have been way more "fun" they don't get paid enough, they don't get any respect, the list goes on. You now have a giant following of men and women the want OUT ASAP. I'm sure that most people notice that it is pretty heavily discouraged to be content or even happy and prideful with your active service because you'll get put on some stupid Fakebook page and slandered and insulted by 500 other military members because you wore your uniform at home on leave (just a loose example, but I'm sure most know what I'm talking about) hopefully this all came together well enough to make sense, I typed it out in kind of a rush.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2015 5:27 AM

2015-03-14T05:27:57-04:00

Sir - That is completely normal for that demographic. That demographic is the majority of the Army and one of the reasons we have recruiters. The height and weight/APFT is normal but a little more prevalent lately, due to leadership. Many junior NCOs haven't developed their leadership enough to try and rehabilitate those Soldiers and it is much easier to just separate them from the service.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. In the same regard you can tell a Soldier about all the benefits the Army provides but you can't make them reenlist. Do you have children sir? I remember my parents telling me what I should and shouldn't do, not necessarily right from wrong but more like recommendations on jobs, "friends" I hung out with or girlfriends that I thought I was going to marry, etc. I didn't realize until I was older and had my own children that it was experience my parents were sharing with me, been there done that kind of thing. When you are 18-25 years old you are in hurry to do a lot of things and the Army might not be for you, the Army gave you the college money it promised or, maybe it's time to take the skill the Army trained me on and apply it where I can make some real money, etc.

Officers have the same demographic only they are a little older, they're called Captains.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Mar 14 at 2015 5:56 AM

2015-03-14T05:56:30-04:00

There are a couple things going here CPT Private RallyPoint Member, some want a change of pace (my son was in this group after 21 months of deployments out of 4 years) and we are also able to be more selective in who we retain.

It is becoming much more competitive to stay in the Army, just because you want to stay does not mean you will get to stay. As a leader do you want the Soldier that embodies the Warrior Ethos or the one that takes the easy way out when things get tough?

You can already see a huge shift of combat experienced veterans leaving our force, across the formation our Soldiers with no SSI-FWS (combat patch) are becoming more common, and in most cases it is not their fault, those just graduating OSUT & AIT are taking the place of our combat experienced force which is cyclical and expected as this will happen after every major period of combat.

While we atrit ourselves to the right size, you have to lean on the right trainers and mentors to train the platoon and keep the lessons learned alive for those remaining in service.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Mar 14 at 2015 3:43 PM

2015-03-14T15:43:04-04:00

As others have mentioned, initial obligation is the major turnover.

The average age in service is only about 24-26~ (some are higher than others). When you account for how the number that stay in until retirement (17%~), it's something close to 65%~ attrition after first four years.

As leaders, we have to realize people stay in for a variety of reasons. And they get out for a variety of reasons. Many just don't enjoy it. Many do.

As you said, "despite some of the less desirable tasks" some people focus on those. I can rattle off DOZENS without thinking about it, and I reenlisted after my first 4. There are great benefits, but there are also a lot of downsides.

It's not our job to convince them to stay in. It is our job to make sure they have enough information to make an informed decision however. As part of an all volunteer force, people have to want to join, and they have to want to stay. They shouldn't be "coerced" to stay because of the benefits. They should be here because they enjoy what they do, understand the mission, and feel they are making a difference.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2015 3:50 PM

2015-03-14T15:50:40-04:00

Alot of people arent cut out for the military. Don't like the BS of the job, dont like "chain of command" authority and on and on. Some just want the 4 year experience and get out. Ya benefits are great but for some, a life without military hanging over your shoulders is more appealing. No deployments, no missed birthdays, holidays. How can you blame some one who doesn't want to miss things like that.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2015 6:38 PM

2015-03-14T18:38:49-04:00

in the PN ( Private's Network) , some reasons that i've heard are the typical
1) "i could be doing this/that"
2) "wrong perception of what the army experience would be "

and etc...

Response by SGT Joe Sabedra made Mar 14 at 2015 6:48 PM

2015-03-14T18:48:03-04:00

I am not in any more but I have a few possibilities.

They see Vets are not properly supported by the VA.

The government wants to charge them for medical and dental benefits.

They are getting pink slips.

How much battle can one person handle.
War is horrific and maybe some don't want any more of it.

While it's what we train for and we want to do our jobs no one really wants to go to war.

Just my brown opinion.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Mar 14 at 2015 9:35 PM

2015-03-14T21:35:13-04:00

The simple fact is we don't need every first term enlisted member or even officer after initial commitment to stay.

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2015 11:58 PM

2015-03-14T23:58:39-04:00

They always have bailed after one tour. What is first-term retention? 20% or so?? That's what it's ALWAYS been for the Army. Just a couple years ago the retention for first-termers skyrocketed up to 33% or so and the Army didn't know what to do with all the extra bodies. At that time, the Air Force was dealing with the same "problem" and had first term reenlistment rates as high as 46%.

It's been that way since there ever was an Army and will be for as long as there still needs to be an Army.

Response by MSG William Wold made Mar 15 at 2015 1:15 AM

2015-03-15T01:15:05-04:00

My oldest son, who was a great soldier but lacked I guess either the ability or willingness to be a leader, but was a loyal great follower, was removed after 11 years for failure to advance over SPC. Maxed APFT and then some (11:28 2 mile still at 30yo), within height/weight. He drives for an interstate truck company now. They are thrilled to have a clean dependable honest punctual employee. He would have stayed if the system would have let him.
My youngest son, has 8 years in; is E-5 Promotable and you'd best lead, follow or get out of his way. He too runs like the wind, though his best time has only been 12:08 Sometimes does off road mountain bike and Iron Man competition, in his spare time. You wouldn't know it, barely 5'8, 135 soaking wet.
He's frustrated with his leaders. I've told him, well get really good, advance up there and be the leader to the subordinates that you feel you should have now. SO that's his goal. But his father in law has also offered him into his electrical company as an apprentice, and they make some pretty good dollars. His wife says get your 20, then do that.. Which is only another 12..

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2015 1:43 AM

2015-03-15T01:43:25-04:00

Take a few civilian management classes. People don't quit organizations, people quit leaders. I did five years and got out. My first unit, while full of great people, had some toxic personnel. The first commander spent more time tdy then at the unit followed by A company commander more concerned with promotion and medals than with his soldiers and the ethics and morality of cheat. Karma caught up to him six years later when it was discovered he had two soldiers write one of his papers for the staff college. A few NCOs who didn't understand that the quarterly EO/SHARP classes were not how to guides. (One got kicked out of ANCOC for that). Finally one last NCO who always found a crap assignment for the three Hispanic soldiers in the unit. Mind you we weren't her soldiers, she'd just walk into the platoon areas when our NCOs were gone and detail us out, not tell our squad leaders and leave us with our a$$ hanging out. And if she had CQ on the weekends she'd come to our rooms and force us to take her shift.
After seeing nothing happen to change any of this for two years I had a bad taste in my mouth. My next unit (a detached company) was great, but eight months into it they shut the base down, moved us to San Antonio, and started turning us into a brigade. So far so good, until our first battalion commander was found embezzling funds and that was hushed up, until after I got out at least. And a few more NCOs who never learned the maxim "sometimes better is the enemy of good."
I saw some good people kicked out for what should of been a slap on the wrist, I saw political operators get by with things that should have been court martials.
I didn't quit the army though, I quit the leaders I had.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2015 12:00 PM

2015-03-16T12:00:55-04:00

There may be two factors contributing to this----1) How different is today's attrition rate from the average since the inception of the All Volunteer Force; 2) How does current HQDA retention and force-shaping policy contribute ? I think there are certainly isolated pieces of unit-centric shortfalls that generate a lack of will to stay in, but from a larger institutional perspective, the driver may be linked to a combination of factors.

Response by SSG Steven Borders made Mar 16 at 2015 12:19 PM

2015-03-16T12:19:05-04:00

For me I am ready to move on with my life. By the time of my ETS I will have served for 7 years. When I joined I wanted to better my life and I believe I have accomplished that goal. I have traveled the world, going back to school to get my degree, and my children are getting older now. Time to go back to being a Civilian and growing my beard.

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made Sep 1 at 2015 1:36 AM

2015-09-01T01:36:58-04:00

From experience, most causes by family hardship,finniancial, Or they just tire of drills and such.

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made Sep 1 at 2015 1:39 AM

2015-09-01T01:39:58-04:00

I think it better if we do a system like a job, If nco do something bad, either warning, disipline or termination.
Work better then report cards.

Response by SFC William Farrell made Dec 3 at 2015 5:47 PM

2015-12-03T17:47:42-05:00

Could it also be CPT Private RallyPoint Member that many of these soldiers are concerned about 12 years of war with possibly more to come? Personally I was GungHo and re-enlisted to go to Vietnam and even paid my own way over and tried to get activated for Desert Storm but it wasn't in the cards for me. I would suspect that after so many years of this, some people may be put off by it after enlisting in the first place. Hell, send my butt over now!

Response by SN Timothy Slazyk made Apr 3 at 2016 9:32 PM

2016-04-03T21:32:58-04:00

Those who are leaving have awakened to the truth that have been unknowingly serving the Satanic Talmudic Jew, Zionist, Luciferian and Jesuit globalists and assisting them in achieving a Luciferian New World Order. They are getting out of the military because they recognize the military is a ruse, disguised with "fake patriotism" and "mind-control" to mind control the troops into thinking they are defending the United States when in fact they are doing the exact opposite, and to never question authority. These globalist scumbags have used the U.S. military throughout the ages to achieve their New World Order agenda. This has always been their only goal and countries that have attacked the USA or been a threat to us in the past are the ones who oppose the New World Order and the United States shadow government's attempt to manipulate the world. The Military Industrial Complex is currently a corrupt SATANIC organization. These young troops should rightfully continue getting out of the military since a globalist Luciferian New World Order will result in the permanent enslavement of mankind, a rapid decline in living conditions, God-given rights, freedom and sovereignty and the inability to own property. If people don't know by now that "terrorism" was escalated as the main tool for world domination when the Saudi's and the USA worked together to sabotage (the clog in the JADE HELM logo means 'sabotage'), citizens of America with the carefully planned and cold calculated murder of Americans during the mini-nuke explosions of 9/11 and the other false flag explosions at the Pentagon (No Plane hit the Pentagon) and building 7. Americans need to wake up and realize that every time they hear the words "terrorists" or "terrorism" in the Zionist owned and controlled mainstream media they are being lied to, deceived and conditioned to willingly accept a Luciferian New World Order with open arms. The next major cataclysm, whatever that is, will result in Americans voluntarily fleeing to false safety within the FEMA deathcamps. This is the greatest American swindle ever next to the earth being a ball, since water does not curve. Eliminate George Soros, Rockefeller, Rothschild, and other Bilderberg members if your truly want world peace. Military officers are urged to wake the heck up! Stock up on weapons of all sorts and be prepared for an attack on America, planned by our very own puppet government, controlled by evil shadow government globalists, AS JFK and others have indicated in the past. This is not rocket-science. Put the pieces together and you'll notice the United States Government has been hijacked. AMERICA HAS BEEN HIJACKED and CIA Political Correctness is destroying AMERICA! These mind-controlled military troops are being conditioned to think it is their duty to protect government and attack Americans with guns, veterans, supporters of the Constitution/Bill of Rights, and Christians. Somebody better be tactfully planning the defense of Americans or they are going to roll over us with 383,000 UN troops and combat vehicles that ARE ALREADY HERE in the USA, inside more than 120 deep underground military bases. WAKE UP AMERICANS!

Response by SGT Alejandro Benavides made Mar 11 at 2017 6:15 PM

2017-03-11T18:15:22-05:00

This is a sore subject for me because I was injured and due to lack of care, my injuries got worse and injured other things as a result. Which led to me actually being medically discharged (I broke my ankle and it hasn't healed right, so I can't walk normally anymore).

But besides that, I felt a lot of unhappiness with super high promotion points, lack of disregard for family or personal time (it's expected, but I don't know if it's expected in a garrison environment without any mission, but simply because your boss didn't want you to leave), poor leadership, shitty assignments, ect. I joined because I wanted to deploy and help fight our wars. And I was happy while deployed, but the minute you come back to country, all the stupidness comes back. I honestly was probably going to reenlist for at least 2 more years if I could reclass, but seeing how bad things were my last year in, I was starting to change my mind. At the end, it wasn't even my choice to stay or leave, but my doctor's. I'm ok with that, although I'd probably be happier if it was up to me.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2017 7:24 PM

2017-03-11T19:24:05-05:00

I wanted to make the military a career choice for myself, but my leadership let me down. Starting with my squad leader all the way up to the Captain of our Company. I had no one to turn to when I became pregnant and couldn't lose the weight and pass the PT test running part in order to stay in. No one offered to help me train, I would try to approach certain NCOs only to get snubbed.

I found out that when I was pregnant that I had an issue with my left hip slipping in and out of socket for no reason. So when running the PT test it did that so I could no longer run but I continued to walk. I was told to just quit and to get ready to be chaptered out. Luckily my my ETS date came up first so I took that instead. I tried to tell them about my hip issue but without a doctor verifying it, I was wasting my breath.

I hated my unit. There were some really great people that were in my unit but the majority of them were complete and utter bitches and assholes

Response by SPC Angel Guma made Mar 11 at 2017 8:12 PM

2017-03-11T20:12:55-05:00

Everyone is different. Honestly if they don't want to be there, all the better they leave. Some people just can't take the BS and leave, others for perks of civilian life.

Leadership or lack thereof finally pushed me over the edge. When I came back from Afghanistan, I had a whole slew of problems- although, they were mostly minor and treatable. I was on anti-depressants that unfortunately caused my heart to tick a little off beat and caused weight gain. I did forward this with my doctors medical evaluation to my NCOIC. But they were really trying hard to make me "soldier up" and kept PTing me and writing me counseling statements. I stress this was actually only temporary- they were in part to treat sleeping disorders that unfortunately followed me from Afghanistan. Had they not been too "Ranger Up" and just given me some leeway to get it under control I could have over come it since my doctor and sleep specialist were both in agreement that while deep my sleeping issues weren't permanent either. But they kept up their hard ass attitude anyways and my heart just wouldn't keep up the pace on those anti depressants, and yes the weight did creep on. No medical waivers whatsoever.

As a matter of fact I found out towards the end that my NCOIC and training NCO were not forwarding this up the chain of command and were painting me to my commander as a lackluster slacker that just didn't want to be there. This is after close to 10 years of service in both the Reserve and AD components. They kept telling me I was making excuses and berated me endlessly despite what some would consider a valid reason for at least a temporary medical profile.

Finally- when I had found out how extensively and systematically those two had lied to the commander and how they deliberately suppressed my doctors statements I lost it. One time they smoked me for a whole hour and berated me in front of my platoon for "making things up" and that I should always keep things in the "chain of command" when I began to suspect they were spreading malicious gossip about me. When this was confirmed after the platoon Sgt finally decided to investigate the matter, my faith and confidence in the NCO Corps was crushed. They preached and harassed me with their "chain of command" nonsense but themselves deliberately lied about the truth just to look good in front of the company commander. And that same Training NCO was also mired in his own scandals with female lower enlisted- there was always "something" with the dude, and himself was on a perpetual medical profile.

Between that and how they tried their best to paint me as a lackluster soldier in front of everyone, and I just decided that continuing on was not in my best interests.

Less than a year and a half after I separated, I have a good job at an IT startup, a Masters in Accounting, and a stellar and growing reputation in the community of nonprofits where I live. I kept up with and still speak conversational Farsi too- which I learned on my own by the way. Not bad for someone who after deployment was put into the Reserve component, came new to a city where I didn't know anyone, ended up stiffed by my ex fiancée and was literally left to starve with no roof over his head, with deployment related sleeping issues.

Everyone is different. I took immense pride in my uniform and oath despite what those two were saying. Going to Afghanistan and finally feeling like I gave back to this country, I still feel, was worth the effort. So I don't regret joining and if I could go back in time I would do it again. But there are far too my NCOs who knowingly abuse their special trust that comes with that E-5. And while it can be argued that the civilian world is just as rife with bad and hypocritical leadership, it just stung me more. Military service in my book is not just another job- it's a calling to something higher and a duty. So yes- just because it happens with shit hole employers as well doesn't make it right. The military was, is, and should always be that special segment of American society where honor is put forward over personal scruples. But that's not what I got after Afghanistan. In the end I'm just grateful I got that chance.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2017 11:54 PM

2017-03-11T23:54:12-05:00

First, I'm mostly commenting on garrison duty here. I propose people are leaving the military in droves is because unit commanders undervalue their soldiers. Force management and recruitment is decentralized so unit commanders aren't concerned with the costs of recruitment and retention. When you're not personally responsible for maintaining your formation it's easier to make those E-3s and E-4s conduct pt, work 14-18 hours a day/night, miss meals and expect them to be motivated. When these unmotivated and burnt out drones flee to other units or ETS, more magically appear.
Provide soldiers with excellent leaders (not bosses), reasonable work expectations/conditions, time for meals and a personal life, and just generally treat them as if they were not just a number. How many leaders have actually asked their soldier how working 14-18 hours a day is affecting their lives or their loved ones lives?
There's also this misconception on how bad civilian life is compared to the golden lifestyle of the military. I really don't think the military was much of an upgrade (financially) until I was E5 and married (BAH/BAS). All those poor single SGTs and below were stuck in the barracks.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2017 7:15 AM

2017-03-12T07:15:23-04:00

While I can not speak for how it is in the Army I can tell you it is not only an Army problem. I am hanging up my flight suit after a little more than nine years and I'll tell ya what I think. Yes there are a lot of benefits and incentives you won't find anywhere else but there is a lot more to life than that as you well know. For me, the pay could double and they give me 60 days of leave a year and I still wouldn't change my mind. The Air Force has grown managers instead of leaders. everyone knows people can not be managed. There is a PC culture being forced on everyone that is a direct threat to the ability of the armed forces to do their job because saying something in the most direct manner could hurt someones precious little feelings and next thing you know sitting at the EO office explaining why you said something like lets go men. Also for me personally the time gone is just to much of a burden to ask my daughter and wife to hold anymore. when I'm gone more than I'm home because of poor manning choices by big blue There is no point any more.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2017 7:00 PM

2017-03-12T19:00:18-04:00

My answer is simple: The military isn't easy and it's not for everyone. If it was, we would have 100% retention. This is nothing new. Maybe some people came in and decided that the lifestyle wasn't for them. Maybe they just joined for the college money or whatever, did a bang-up job while they were in, and got out on a good note. When I have a good Soldier coming up on ETS, I don't badger him about reenlisting as if it's his best option (it may not be) but I tell him that I'm proud of him for what he has done, and to keep his options and his mind open. Shaming Soldiers who ETS is the worst thing leaders can do

Response by Deborah Gregson made Mar 13 at 2017 6:22 AM

2017-03-13T06:22:06-04:00

After reading the most recent responses I'd like to throw in my opinion from a civilian's view having talked to a few close friends in the military who have chosen to stay, retired recently, decided to leave earlier than planned and from watching for years the military, political and cultural climate in our country. A very close friend who left the service after 12 years, and had planned to be in it as a career, did so two years ago after much agonizing thought. He was offered a sizable resigning bonus because he was in Special Forces, he recognized his value to the service, he loved the job he did and has a great love for our country. He wanted to stop terrorism before it came here and saw the incredible value in the benefits of being in the military, as he was the son of a legal immigrant from Mexico and had grown up picking fruit and vegetables in California. His only opportunity to get an education beyond high school and live in a place without gang violence was to stay in the military, and he valued that. He loved his team. But he was deployed over and over to Iraq and Afghanistan for 12 - 18 months with just 3 months in between which were used for intense training and hardly any time for family visits. He fell in love and married. Special Ops was moved to Eglin, his wife was new to military life and away from home, miscarried, not coping well with no family to support her. He was in South America for long periods of time, then rumors of going back to Afghanistan again. The political issues at home were getting really bad, and frankly we had many long discussions about the fact that the Administration was not supportive of the military or it's mission in the Middle East even though it kept sending troops back into harm's way.

It's too hard for troops to keep sacrificing time with family and friends, putting their lives and mental health at risk, losing their personal freedom and give up individual rights, while being deployed for long periods of time over and over by an Administration that doesn't believe in the cause they are sending the troops to fight for, then be told their service isn't going to be supported with an adequate budget or funding or administrative initiatives.

My friend's father was dying of cancer which further pushed his decision, we clued him into job offers in the area he had lived before near his family, so he decided to leave the service two years ago. It was a great decision for him. His dad died six months later, so he had time to spend with him before his passing, something he wouldn't have had if he had re-enlisted. He and his wife then had the time to successfully have a little boy, and now are expecting their second child; they bought a great home about 20 miles away from where he used to live; he has a terrific contracting job where he recently was allowed to go back and tie in his previous government benefits that were accumulate; and his salary is so much higher than he was getting while in the service.

Why are so many young soldiers leaving the army/service? There's not much incentive to stay in, because love of country and "good benefits" isn't enough when the country, Administration, media atmosphe, general public doesn't support you day after day.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Mar 13 at 2017 12:16 PM

2017-03-13T12:16:58-04:00

Because they thought they were just signing up for tuition reimbursement and never thought they would actually have to wear a uniform, represent their country or maybe even die for it. I saw this many times and this was after they tried to end their enlistment before it started.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2017 6:18 PM

2017-03-24T18:18:42-04:00

I can't speak for active duty. Being a high speed lower enlisted in the reserves is kinda like being a MLB player in little league were everyone gets participation trophies. CLI and the ease of promotions have created an extremely lazy and complacent nco corps. In most cases they absolutely love counseling soldiers negatively whenever they can but will seldom ever positively counsel them. Leadership on the company level is completely concerned with administrative problems and does not care at all about training or actual soldiering in general. I could go on and on. 90% of reservist soldiers hate the military except when on deployment. No idea what active is like.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Aug 1 at 2017 3:18 PM

2017-08-01T15:18:57-04:00

I honestly think it is the money!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2017 8:45 PM

2017-08-01T20:45:14-04:00

You may just need to do an AAR. Set it up so that it is anonymous and conducted by one of your junior leaders. Most of the time if a Soldier will take this opportunity to vent all of their frustration about whatever it is that is bothering them. Some of the responses are nothing more than casual "bitching" but most of the time you can see a pattern, whether its about the leadership, living conditions or even the training. This may, at the very least, give you a starting point to focus your attention.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2017 10:45 PM

2017-08-01T22:45:00-04:00

It's toxic leadership throughout. Officers and NCOs alike are getting fed up with political correctness, being a social experiment, micromanagement, not being allowed to do their jobs and senior members caring about their OERs more than soldiers.

Response by PO3 Peter Dobrotvorsky made Aug 2 at 2017 12:03 PM

2017-08-02T12:03:26-04:00

I actually made an account and verified it to answer this question. Not everyone is cut out for military life. I did one enlistment, and by the end of it, was ready to get out. I was good at my job, I made HM3 in four years, which is more than some others can say. But at the end of the day, there was no way I would re-up. I missed my family, and relations between my home country and the US were (and still are) deteriorating rapidly. I made a personal decision to not further associate myself with the government of the US, and nothing any leader I had could have done anything about it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2017 1:29 PM

2017-08-02T13:29:40-04:00

they are not willing to undertake a challenge and make it a career.

Response by SMSgt Thor Merich made Aug 2 at 2017 5:00 PM

2017-08-02T17:00:12-04:00

This could be outdated information, but I remember reading a report a few years ago about military retention. The vast majority of members of the Army, Navy, and Marines did one tour (4 years) and got out. In the Air Force, the majority of members left after 2 tours (8 years).

When I was in the Army (1981-1984), everyone I knew completed one (3 year) tour and got out.

I think what you are seeing is pretty normal, especially for the Army.

Response by SGM Vincent Fernandez made Aug 2 at 2017 5:27 PM

2017-08-02T17:27:43-04:00

Poor leadership Period .

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2017 5:32 PM

2017-08-02T17:32:36-04:00

Good observation. Like you said, our experiences are anecdotal but I feel a lot of young Soldiers have this idea in their heads that every leader in their chain of command is going to be Hal Moore. Sorry. For every stellar NCO there is a dud. For every great commander there is a self centered a-hole. I believe the so what in all of this is (in my opinion) a lack of selfless service. A lot of first term Soldiers are just not willing to endure a tough assignment or a bad leader (at any echelon). Call it entitlement if you want, but I see the same attitude in 2LTs and PFCs. What good leaders will do is try to teach all their subordinates that the Army is a big place, no two units are the same, and you can learn as much from bad leaders as good ones. The amount of actual toxic leaders I believe is pretty low and we should make sure to snuff that out wherever we find it. However, the amount of poor leaders is probably equal to the amount of poor subordinates which I'm sure is far too high.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2017 7:24 PM

2017-08-02T19:24:54-04:00

Sir a lot of new recruits join the military for the good benefits they hear. Once they are in they realize that the army was not for them and they get out. I have encountered multiple soldiers that did not want to stay in the army but after talking to them eye to eye or I would say heart to heart they have stayed in. Some of them contact me and thank me for the leadership and mentorship I have given them to this day.

Response by SFC Terrance Zamora made Aug 3 at 2017 12:09 PM

2017-08-03T12:09:03-04:00

I believe it's a generational problem. Current recruits aren't necessarily sub standard they are a victim of our current culture. Not all of them but many of them, most people now a days want to get as much as possible in the least amount of time and with the least amount of effort. Hard work and dedication aren't qualities that valued as much today as they used to be.

Response by SPC Frank Novosel made Aug 3 at 2017 3:11 PM

2017-08-03T15:11:10-04:00

The benifets of staying in the army is that a joke? There is no benefit to staying in if you truly want to have free will. There are benefits to going into the army for start up in life but staying in that dose not make no scene. I rather be able to chose what I want when I want the army is nothing but a bunch of babysitting smart people become their own person stupid people fall in.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2017 3:17 PM

2017-08-03T15:17:30-04:00

It starts from the top and the last regime had different priorities. Towards the end of G.W.'s term things starting going south. I feel the army no longer values the soldiers and has gone to lenient with new soldiers. When I joined there was order and discipline and one standard. Now if I want to be a different gender or follow my own rules I can do so or I'll cry and complain until I'm on TV forcing your hand. When I joined if you didn't adhere to the military standard you were booted but now we make so many exceptions. If you had a different religion you weren't allowed to dress different, you had to practice within the confines of AR's such as 670-1. Soldiers leaving IET feel they are entitled to the same privileges I have as middle management. Never mind I paid my dues to get where I'm at. We want smarter soldiers but at what price, now our units have 10 chiefs in every tribe. You want to fix it. Start kicking people out that do not adapt to the single army image. Unity and uniformity is strength not individualism. You have to also fix the numbers. There shouldn't be 1 officer for 3 soldiers. We are too top heavy. It used to be 1 LT for 15-20 people, a CPT for 30-40. Now we have so many people double slotted, triple slotted that the ranks are stagnant and there's no mobility. And lastly take care of the soldier. Mentor them teach and train them. If they fail to conform remove them. When I joined it was a career, 20 years and retire, now what ever you put into it is what you get from it.

Response by SPC Rob Culver made Aug 3 at 2017 6:04 PM

2017-08-03T18:04:26-04:00

In my humble opinion the NCO Corp has changed in a bad way. In the 90's during my service and when I went though PLDC the NCO's the surrounded me and my unit where concern more with the well being of soldiers today in my sons unit the NCO's only seem to be interested in their own well being and could care less about their subordinate soldiers.

Response by CPL Robert Wright made Aug 3 at 2017 11:46 PM

2017-08-03T23:46:54-04:00

Pay,endless wars that separate families and the failed leadership of this nation.
Take Iraq for example as far as I'm concerned most them solders died for nothing when we left and abandoned the Iraq people.i mean shit the judge who sentenced saddam was supposed to come here to the us,we left him there and he was murdered

Response by MSG Ronald Nakamoto made Aug 3 at 2017 11:52 PM

2017-08-03T23:52:30-04:00

Best retirement plan in usa

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Aug 4 at 2017 12:16 AM

2017-08-04T00:16:09-04:00

Because everyone in the barracks knows that when you leave the military, you immediately walk into a CEO job earning six figures, and are surrounded at all times by civilians who are in awe of you, your intellect, and your worldly wisdom bestowed upon you by four years of motor pool Mondays and maybe one deployment =o).

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2017 12:23 AM

2017-08-04T00:23:13-04:00

The army now expects soldiers and leaders to do more with less (training, money, etc), you can't. Deployments are almost nonexistent. Infantry soldiers are leaving because they joined to go to war, instead they sit in the motor pool and do stupid ethics classes. People are leaving cause the military is weak and boring

Response by SPC Janerio West made Aug 4 at 2017 12:14 PM

2017-08-04T12:14:48-04:00

Im so glad im out the army!!!!!! Fuck da army lol

Response by AA Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2017 11:22 PM

2017-08-04T23:22:46-04:00

I believe that it's a leadership problem. I think that if it's anything like the Navy, it's basically all of the dos and don't that SSG Palmer IV listed. Too many or at least enough leadership berate shortcomings and so on so forth. I do agree that holding hands and singing khumbaya but at the same time we are all working towards the same goal or at least should be. There's no need to treat lower ranking people like crap ALL the time.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2017 11:23 PM

2017-08-04T23:23:41-04:00

So I see this is a pretty old topic, but seeing as I recently ETS'd, I feel I can add my 2 cents as I fit the first termer demographic.
I used to love the Army. I had a great time through Basic and AIT, made a lot of good friends, skated under the radar in all the right places. My biggest struggle was always APFT; in both basic training and AIT I was flagged throughout, however I did not get held back from either, I passed the finals on the first try in both instances and was incredibly proud of myself for doing so. (I was never any kind of athletic person.) A part of me had first joined for 3 major reasons: 1. College money, which turned out to be ironic as I attended one semester and failed epically at balancing a civilian job, the reserves, and school. 2. To be a part of something much bigger than myself and to wear the uniform. and 3. To prove to myself and everyone else that I could do it.
That being said, I finished AIT with excellent scores in all the academic portions, even my final APFT was above a 250.
Then I got to my unit and at first everything was as I had expected upon coming into a new place. There was hazing and since I was still only an E-1 at the time, I didn't expect it to relent for a while. I jumped 2 ranks after the first APFT and I was still being treated like dirt, even though there were others coming in behind me. I persevered, got moved around within the unit. I think part of it was my unit still having trouble integrating females fully, not sure what to do with us or utilize us to our fullest extent (Hint: should probably just treat us like everyone else, seeing as in AIT that's exactly how we were treated even in that male-heavy environment). By my third year I was miserable, we were doing the same exact training every month of the year, with the same detachment leading the training. I always felt there was a lot to be learned from being on the other side of training, but seeing as only one of the 5 detachments in my company was doing so, the rest of us missed out greatly on that opportunity. Coming up on my fourth into the fifth year at this same unit, no deployments in sight, there wasn't a thing you could do or say to change my mind about re-enlisting. I felt the leadership could use a lot of work, about half our NCOs were under-qualified or toxic and abused their roles as NCOs. Being in a rather NCO heavy MOS (37F), this is a huge problem. There's only so many SPCs to pull their leaders' weight.
I'll be the first to admit I had started slacking badly in the APFT department, but a good part of it came from an AIT injury I got a profile for when I returned home. Literally the day after that profile expired they gave me an APFT, knowing full well I had been prohibited from any kind of running. Obviously I failed, and from then on, I was counseled negatively every single month because their idea of remedial PT is just administering an APFT, rather than any kind of actual remedial PT. My morale was shot, and when I finally managed to scrape a pass out of myself, I gained my final rank of SPC. I ETS'd in January and am currently finishing my final 2 years in the IRR.
All that being said, I really don't think it's a problem with it just being the younger generation not knowing how good they have it. I think it's majorly being treated like dirt, not being helped when you need it, poor leadership, and suffering morale overall. I truly think if I'd gone Active Duty, I may have had an entirely different experience, however I do know a lot of those who did go active duty, and they too are out now for similar reasons. No one tried to talk to me to get me to re-sign, not that I would have if they had, and that may be part of the reason no one did. I made it known I was mentally done with the Army for the time being. I am a tiny bit almost offended though, that no one really valued me enough to even give it a try.
All in all I greatly valued my experience in the army, and I truly do not like being on the civilian side with the even worse work ethic there. I do not make more money on this side, but I am happier overall to be treated and valued a little more. To be clear, I did hear from more than one NCO that I was not just a lazy female soldier, but one of the more hard working types they'd come across. I will say that toward the tail end of my 6th year in that unit, things were improving, the quality of training and also they began rotating who led the training and the places we went, scenarios were better etc.
Super long post, I apologize, but I'd held it in for a while, feels really good to let it out finally, even if no one reads it.

Response by SPC Darin Story made Aug 4 at 2017 11:37 PM

2017-08-04T23:37:55-04:00

They've lost faith in the government that sold them out. Valerie jarrett, huma abedin; the whole insane DNC that is not worth fighting, killing, or dying over.
Hillary clinton? Another Clinton or Bush? The uniformed services appear to be saying hell, no.
These young men are not idiots; they are awesome people that this country should be striving to be deserved of, not vice-versa.

Response by SSG William Green made Aug 5 at 2017 10:11 AM

2017-08-05T10:11:31-04:00

These young people have been Globalized and have been captured by these smart tools !!

Response by Sgt DavidAlexandra HeltonWhitmill made Aug 5 at 2017 12:55 PM

2017-08-05T12:55:12-04:00

I'd say for me personally in my experience is the down time that really gets people and a lack of guidance from their leadership.
Often times due to paperwork or the bureaucratic process in things young military personnel will get left feeling that they are wasting their time.
Idle hands do nothing but cause trouble. On top of the much of the leadership has taken a stance of being quick to write paperwork instead of dealing with things in a more constructive way.

Response by LTC Larry Davis made Aug 5 at 2017 3:05 PM

2017-08-05T15:05:12-04:00

IMHO, retention is 50% good experience and 50% leadership. If Soldiers are treated like crap, they won't stay; likewise, they will not perform as they should. If treated well, they will re-up and be highly motivated. Now, this good treatment I'm talking about is not coddling them or catering to their every whim. It's treating them with respect, taking care of them, seeing to their needs, knowing what their job requires and being able to do at least some of it shoulder to shoulder with them. That's all part of good leadership. It builds trust, promotes their worth, creates units instead of clusters of Soldiers. Sadly, OBC courses don't teach this anymore. Junior officers need to learn from their plt. sgt. and squad leaders. Learn their jobs, their concerns, their experiences. Ask for and use their input. Trust them to build the teams and openly recognize their leadership and successes. The lower enlisted will want to remain a part of the good unit you're building and will follow such Leadership into the face of the Devil himself! Hooah! Infantry! Follow me!

Response by SrA Mark Shaffer made Aug 5 at 2017 4:06 PM

2017-08-05T16:06:13-04:00

I spent 8 years as an aircraft maintainer for the Air National Guard in my state. I loved my job and the fellow airman I served with. What I hated was the favoritism showed to those who would suck up to the flight chiefs. They could just flat out botch an inspection, miss something big, and not even get called into the flight chiefs office. Myself and most others would be thrown to the wolves for minor offenses.

Trips were also an issue. We would have short trips to support training missions and training drops and jumps. Those were always fun trips so naturally the suck ups went on those. I deployed to Bagram in 2010 and upon return there was a deployment to Puerto Rico for 30 days. The returning guys were supposed to have first choice to go to Puerto Rico. Me being 21 and single at the time jumped on the opportunity. I was chosen, then taken off my the same flight chief, and replaced with the suck up.

That's the stuff that drives guys out. Getting the shaft for our good work.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2017 5:44 PM

2017-08-05T17:44:43-04:00

Cause the leadership is trash on all levels of the army. Leaders just don't care about their soldiers anymore.

Response by MAJ Eric Greek made Aug 5 at 2017 5:53 PM

2017-08-05T17:53:29-04:00

I think you can see why many people are leaving just by looking at sites like this. When people ask questions and have a legitimate concern, many of the answers are shockingly inappropriate. I cannot count the number of, "You work for the Army, the Army does not work for you!," or, "Shut up and get out whiner!," comments. These are usually from some pretty senior people and display an attitude that would torpedo any business. When you have to recruit, train, and retain people, it is both shocking and counter-productive to see 'management' treat Soldiers like Serfs - forgetting entirely that they have families, questions, concerns and it takes just as long to say, "How can I help you?," as it does to say, "STFU, whiner and get out!"

... and then they get out and we wonder why? If there is a retention problem there is a leader problem (same thing in the business world).

Response by SPC Raymond Weinman made Aug 5 at 2017 6:05 PM

2017-08-05T18:05:39-04:00

I was fortunate to have good training from basic all the way through my active duty. Pretty good leadership as well. A sense of team and family was pushed. The Army had its bad moments as well but I feel the military helped make a man out of me. It gave me a sense of duty, honor and helped me understand how valuable our freedom really is. I only know what my daughter tells me now. She is a Captain in the Army Nursing Corp and a trauma nurse in the emergency room at Ft. Hood. There are a lot of people seeking medical discharges for a variety of reasons. She said a lot of it is B.S. but some legit. Morale is an issue. I wish all active duty and our veterans well.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 6 at 2017 9:16 AM

2017-08-06T09:16:19-04:00

The moment you guys stop treating privates like slave labor will probably start to want to stay in longer, everybody knows back in the day it was harder for you because of example A B or Cpt but Noone really cares about that, something I noticed as a private is that my leadership continuously failed to teach me anything all they wanted to do was drink or go on pass, they were too focused on anything but their job and teaching it to the younger generation! So now as a SPC through self learning I'm starting to figure it out on my own which sucks but I reenlisted because I want to be the change I'm looking for so.... yeah! Once people stop treating privates like slave labor and start treating them like subordinates I'm sure the army promotion will be busy improving and enhancing it's ranks !

Response by Sara Widomska made Aug 6 at 2017 10:44 AM

2017-08-06T10:44:54-04:00

Just like any career you move onward and upward. Some people leave because they get sick of administrative "mistakes". Others leave because they feel that their leadership has failed them as mentors/guardians. Some leave because they feel like "Uncle Sam" robbed them of various things (tangible and intangible). Some young soldiers just had no idea that higher ranking people in the army tell them what to do and how to act.. and either theyre brain dead or their recruiter told them that everyone owes them something. Meh, whatever it is, good luck to all of them.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 6 at 2017 11:19 AM

2017-08-06T11:19:46-04:00

This is a great share CPT Private RallyPoint Member, thou it seems like an older post I'll leave a comment anyway. A lot of what I have seen in both civilian and military leadership and grunts or civilian laborers depends on both. Learning your leaders personalities in my opinion is important. It will let you know if they are good or toxic leaders.
Those who hold grudges over the smallest thing will incourage other NCOs to follow in negative behavior. Most of us all started at lower pay grades so you would think we would all have a fair leadership.
In both civilian and military found people would work better for me then others. I couldn't understand why, I had a reputation for being a "bitch" if you will.
So when we had a new green AIT graduate and we at drill during down time. The PFC asked if we could tell him what to expect from all the NCO leaders so he didn't mess up and getbin trouble!?....
interesting question I though. After they all got done telling this kid what to expect and who to avoid hahahaha it came to my turn. So I waited. Only one was rave enough. And it still holds stead fast in heart to this day. The SPC went off about me. With no sincerity or laughter in his tone. Everyone froze waiting for me explode. But I waited because I was curious to see what my leadership looked like to them. Sure enough I was labeled the biggest bitch, mean as hell, scariest most unpredictable NCO at that unit. Then silence. He then looked at the kid and said BUT! She's the most fair of all the NCOs. If yourbdoing your job you'll never see her, if your not doing your job she's on your Ass no questions asked. And after she's done drilling you she will tell you why and give explination to why your in trouble. Most times if one person slacks off itbeffects everyone. There's no unit if one person is working for themselves. and putting someone in an area they don't do well at is asking for them to fail. Makingbeach person as valuable as possible makes for a stronger unit.
And for those I just could stand forbwhat ever reason! Didn't mean they were bad soldiers or workers. Just means our personalities clashed. So I sucked it up and dealt with the difference to insure everything ran smoothly. My thought at the end of the day was I wasn't living them, i didn't have to see them outside of duty so why make it harder and more work fighting with them just because they didn't click with me.
So maybe start off by asking your younger soldiers to describe each NCO without holding a grudge on their judgement. This will help you to find out how your leadership team is conducting business when your not around. No one soldier is to blame, but finding out who the problems are and fixing them is a lot less headache later.

Response by CPL Lisa Esquivel made Aug 6 at 2017 11:32 AM

2017-08-06T11:32:42-04:00

Well for one thing... if they got paid for what they are worth they wouldn't seek other employment... sports players get paid to play .. we get paid to protect... who gets paid more?? Well not the military... yes the benifits are great and it's hard to get fired but when your working and protecting for peanuts but you deserve caviar , it's hard to take care of your family and worry how they are gonna eat.. military make too much to receive government assistance but not enough to send their kids to school everyday with what they need to grow into another military personal ... give them the biggest raise they have ever had and you will see more of them stay !!!

Response by AA Joseph Moody made Aug 6 at 2017 12:58 PM

2017-08-06T12:58:35-04:00

That moment when you read a post and it is like someone was living your life for you.
One problem I've seen both in the navy and on the federal employee side is that there is a lack of natural selection when it comes to leadership and personal, although one thing did become clear to me when I was a WG working in an army depot, I was working at an army depot and talking with many of the old timers there about this or that toxic leader and one thing kept coming up time and time again.

So many of the worst leaders were actually alright workers, who had the normal mix of problems and perks, but once they became a leader they fully began to fail at their professional life. Which looking back on it, many of the worst leaders I had in the navy were actually 'alright' people, and most likely the navy would have had great benefit from their continued service of those people for their technical skills, but they were horrid personality matches for leadership positions.

Part of the reason why there is such a focus on moral character for leadership is because it is a good filter to prevent petty abuse of the subordinates and the system. and when you are in the service, enlisted or federal employee you are in a position where your supervision has a degree of power that is seldom found in the outside world. And this is why when people are 14 years in and decide to quit because of bad leadership it is not because they could not tough it out, it was because they understood that they were at risk. And unfortunately if you are in a toxic workplace one of the best things to do is to get out, and if you have to mitigate risk you could be far safer by choosing what your leader focuses on with you, rather than having them find something on their own. So yeah, I can see why someone would prt fail and GTH out as quick as they can. I got a story about that actually but that would involve a discussion without permanent records.

Response by SPC Casey Ashfield made Aug 6 at 2017 8:58 PM

2017-08-06T20:58:33-04:00

If I could only give one answer to this question, it would be toxic leadership. Leaders who care more about their own skin, careers, and awards than worrying about their soldiers. It is my firm belief that toxic leadership has always been a problem. We could go back to Rome and see bad leaders with way too much political ambition ignoring troop welfare. The change in the modern military is an abundance of civilian support to pull young service members from the military. This isn't Vietnam era anymore where if you wore a uniform you didn't have much chance of getting a civilian job after separation. This effect still reverberates in our military today. Retention NCOs try harder to get soldiers to stay career military like their Vietnam and Desert Storm era members.

A service member with less than 12 years of service can easily find a civilian or government job (many of which stack with military retirement) with better pay and benefits. Civilian employers are slowly learning the benefit of military experience in their employee backgrounds. And they are the ones benefiting from the military's failings at retention.

Speaking from personal experience I loved my time in the Army. But I served with some downright awful leaders. I had some great ones to spread around the bull so it would fall on the shoulders of the most junior soldiers. But eventually good leaders get moved as well as bad ones. I changed units a few times because of bad leaders and I eventually left because of bad leaders.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 6 at 2017 10:37 PM

2017-08-06T22:37:12-04:00

My second week in Active Duty my PLSGT tried to court marshall me because my wife is of asian ethnicity. He thought we were trying to take advantage of the BAH (convenience of marriage). He based all of his assumptions on racism alone. Want to know who was sitting beside hum during the whole process??? One of your peers...a 2LT...Thanks but no thanks. I'd rather take my chances in the civilian sector where Im not binded by a contract with my hands tied...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 6 at 2017 10:53 PM

2017-08-06T22:53:21-04:00

From what I see it all boils downs to the message the recruiters are promoting. Are they recruiting for what Army intent is or just meeting quotas. In low income areas bonuses are like hitting the lottery. A better pre system need to be administered to recruit those who want make a change in there life. I work in TRADOC and witness soldiers feel on purpose because the picture that was painted in the beginning turns out to be fake. I do my best motivated soldiers when there questioning the choice they made but some wounds can't be healed instantly.

Response by CPO Vince Brotherton made Aug 7 at 2017 12:19 AM

2017-08-07T00:19:53-04:00

Malingering has been around since Rome, no different today. Best if they just go as they are bad for unit cohesion.

Response by Tyler Preston made Aug 7 at 2017 3:21 AM

2017-08-07T03:21:16-04:00

Perhaps they feel that they were happier as a civilian. Before another war breaks out they can use the army as a reference.

Response by PO3 Don Svenson made Aug 7 at 2017 5:39 AM

2017-08-07T05:39:51-04:00

Thats because "kids" have everything handed to them now. They don't know what it means to have to work for it

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2017 7:34 AM

2017-08-07T07:34:36-04:00

Good Morning Sir,
I'll be honest on this. I'm in no way complaining but a vast majority of them either feel like their leadership is Toxic or feel like their leadership doesn't take care of them or like SSG James said Bad Experiences.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2017 10:58 AM

2017-08-07T10:58:58-04:00

What does the army advertise? Thats why many people join. Come to find you sit in a motorpool dry sweeping or just sitting waiting for 1700 90% of the time not being able to go home because even though there is no work to be done the sfc doesnt wasnt to look bad by releasing you early, and on the opposite he or whoever doesnt want to put in the time to arrange some sort of actuall training for you, not the "dont get raped and dont rape somebody else" trainings. Your mos training.

Face it soldiers will complain about everything, so might as well have them complain about training that will make them feel proud to be in their mos, not complain about doing nothing, "i feel like a civilian in a military uniform." I am literally doing nothing all day. Mopping the floor multiple times a day doesnt cut it.

This is not worth it.

Their has to be a reward for the bs that you put up with. The reward for many, would be the training/ the commercials or whatever the recruiter told them they would do when they joined! Soldiers will complain, but low key they will feel pretty dang proud about their MOS and if you do training that exerts them, actually helps them become an expert in their mos, they will be proud. and even if they still get out they will feel proud. The guys that really dont like the training dont belong so who cares about them.

I wonder who will re enlist, a soldier who is proud of his mos/ army or one who feels like a civilian in uniform? They joined the army. Time to do army things. Unless mp and sitting around really is the army then im totally wrong!

Response by SSgt John Littau made Aug 7 at 2017 11:02 AM

2017-08-07T11:02:12-04:00

Very tough recruiting from the current public. Planning for the future takes a determined and mature outlook.

Response by SPC Randle Jones made Aug 7 at 2017 12:29 PM

2017-08-07T12:29:22-04:00

I think those who fail weight and tape have lack of motivation but many service members have fallen under bad leadership and moany NCO's have been promoted just so the don't have to work the military has over looked many good leader's

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Aug 7 at 2017 12:37 PM

2017-08-07T12:37:46-04:00

I'm going out on a limb here, as I have been retired since 2006 but:
I think you will find the turn over is not much greater than it has been in the past. The reasons soldiers get out are as old as the Army itself - bad leaders, better pay in civilian world, deployments, over all hassles of Army life, no civilian life. Finally decided a career goal, doesn't want the BS, promotions, attitudes. The last I knew it was around 17% who make it to retirement (Jan's 2011). I don't think things have changed much, but I'm just an "old retired Grunt".

Response by PFC Mark Pickle made Aug 7 at 2017 3:56 PM

2017-08-07T15:56:34-04:00

They may be like I was when I got out. To young and dumb to know how good they have it. Or they may just be a bunch of snow flakes

Response by MGySgt Ronald Warfield made Aug 7 at 2017 4:26 PM

2017-08-07T16:26:51-04:00

I am retired and have been for about 20 years but people are people no matter what era. Treating your young Marines or Soldiers with respect and dignity goes a long way. I am not advocating that you become drinking buddies or socialize together. Complimenting a man or woman for a job well done is paramount. I also strongly feel that over the past 8 years there has been a declaration of war on the military. Having a commander in chief who hated the military did nothing for morale. I also believe that allowing transgenders to enlist was a major mistake. I can not imagine living in a space with a room mate who is neither male not female. I think with a commander in chief who is pro military things will improve.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2017 6:10 PM

2017-08-07T18:10:13-04:00

I was one of those who ETSd as an E-4. I honestly enjoyed my time, duty station, mos, and loved my deployment. That being said, I enlisted to do simply that, a combat tour and get out. I do wish I would have done more than just an OEF tour but at the same time I am happy that I got out with a positive experience. Numerous friends re-upped after reintegration and onlt 4 from my platoon are still in. Everyone else left citing inexperienced leadership, lack of deployments, and dwindling standards.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2017 7:19 PM

2017-08-07T19:19:10-04:00

Sir, for the reserves some of the AGRS need to stop telling the the tpu soldiers "you are just part time you dont care" and if you fail two other test we will give you the boot. So where is the leadership that a soldier wants to follow.

Response by SFC Christopher Taggart made Aug 7 at 2017 7:56 PM

2017-08-07T19:56:27-04:00

I’ve been looking at the comments, and some are valid, but we shouldn’t just blame the leadership over the loss of personnel. I think a lot of young soldiers have no vision or concept of what awaits them after leaving the military. Unless you have this great support system (mom & dad) back home, which I did not, you will feel the loss, no matter what your age is. Since leaving, seven years ago, I’ve been unemployed, on food stamps, employed at a job I disliked, lost that job for being hospitalized, gotten my Bachelor’s degree, and now working on finishing up for my Master’s degree…plus my stress level has gone thru the roof several times. I know the stress level is high in the military, but the bottom line is…YOU can’t get fired at the drop of a hat. How many times have you’ve seen a soldier get the “pink slip” on Friday and gone home that evening? I should admit, I stayed in for over 20+ years trying to avoid the inevitable, but it still happened. My advice, I wouldn’t be so quick in leaving the military. After a few years of being in, I began to like it.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2017 11:50 PM

2017-08-07T23:50:54-04:00

I just recently left the military myself. I wanted to be a career soldier. I spent 11 years in service in both the Marines and Army. I deployed 3 times to different theaters. I had outstanding NCOERs, and have worked hard and did everything I could for my soldiers. Shortly after getting a new leader my wife left me and took our new child with her to the other side of thr country out of reach of me. (It wasnt for any reason other then we couldn't stand each other, no abuse). I went through a hard depression and made a mistake and said I had a flat tire to get out of PT. Remember I've never done anything like this before or even think to do this if I was in my right mind. Then showed up for work at the standard time after PT and they told me they where giving me an artical 15. This I understood until they took my rank, money, and didn't understand that would RCP me out. It showed me that the Army never care about those 11 year of honorable service, outstanding performances, long hours, hard work, combat experience. They punished me to the max for my one any only offense because of my new leader felt hurt that I told him a little lie. So now I'm out and happy because I don't want to be a part of something that treats soldiers like that. So I can understand why people want out. They whole Army is flawed and crumbling because of bad leaders and a faulty promotion system.

Response by SPC Raven Alonso made Aug 8 at 2017 12:15 AM

2017-08-08T00:15:01-04:00

Spent 6 years in the Army. I got out simply due to all of the autrocious leadership I encountered, I lost faith in the Army as an organization. We don't need to be kinder to soldiers, they're war fighters and should be tough. But war fighters should not be treated like children. All of the most capable soldiers I served with got out because they knew they could find a place where they would be valued more. It's sad and it's a shame that so many of the Army's best leave the Army because they get treated like crap, because they are tired of the dog and pony show, and they are tired of constantly being misused. Young men join the military to become part of a distinguished brotherhood of warriors, not to endure the BS being thrown at them from unconnected leaders from above. Most Army leaders (at least from what I have experienced) are not real leaders at all, they're managers. The Army needs to up their standards in all aspects. They might lose some numbers, but they'll hold onto the ones who will make up for it. On a final note, I have had some excellent leaders, leaders who would do anything for their men, but they're are few among many in the Army.

Response by CPT Paul S Guglietta made Aug 8 at 2017 10:48 AM

2017-08-08T10:48:11-04:00

Why,are so many soldiers leaving the Army? That not a easy question to answer. I am retired after 20 years service with 3 tours in Vietnam ( 3 Purple Hearts) I was a senior NCO (E-7) before I was commissioned. So, I know how it is to be enlisted and commissioned. I was Ranger, Airborne, Pathfinder, Air Assault (11th Air Assault Div/ 1st Cav) , I was Infantry my whole career, you name it I did it. My base pay was $68.00 (E-1). Why did I stay in? Cold War, Vietnam, etc. because I had excellent Leaders that took care for us, I took advantage of the opportunities the Army Offered at that time.I was a Leader of men at 21 yrs old (a manger). Where else could happen? That training, experience help me when I retired, I got good high paying jobs. In the civilian world (business) when a employee leaves they usually are asked to fill out a questionnaire voluntarily! These questionnaires were read by management to see what we needed to do to retain these employees, we trained them and they were skilled workers, we the company had to invest time and money training the new replacement. That not good for the bottom line.....
True military life is not for ever one, but the all volunteer military is currently to small, to do the many jobs effectively, to many tours of combat duty, this is destroying the troops moral and for our soldier and their family life. I served with draftee for almost all my career, they for the most part were good soldiers and many I served with made the Army a career. We need to bring the draft back? The National Guard and Reserves are also carrying a heavy burden.
Their is no easy answers, One,, is Leadership two Is Leadership,

Response by CPT Sean McCoy made Aug 8 at 2017 1:07 PM

2017-08-08T13:07:58-04:00

In my time in the military (2000-2008) I saw some things that I feel impacted how we retain troops. First, deployment tempo greatly increased during my stretch. Where once there were very few people outside of the XVIIIth Airborne Corps who had regularly deployed to operational deployments, by the time I left the military deployment tempo was such that I had never been home for more than 10 months between overseas deployments. I am not sure what the current tempo is, but with the downsizing that has occurred since 2008 I can't imagine its much better. Soldiers want to deploy and do their jobs, they want a sense of mission. But it is also very demanding on families. If we as a nation want our forces to be involved in every squabble we have to be willing to foot the bill for the men, training, and equipment needed to do so for an extended period. So either we need to look at our foreign policy or our budget.

I agree with some of the sentiments regarding leadership. We get on average four years to do things right by our men. One bad commander, PL, PSG, or SL can ruin that. I disagree that we should imitate civilian leadership styles, we have a different mission, and much more urgent needs, but we do need competent, professional, moral (this can't be understated) leaders.

During my time I also saw my last brigade stood up from the ground up. Unfortunately they didn't have a leadership structure in place to ensure enough supervision to instill discipline from the beginning. As a result we had an atrocious amount of attrition due to serious discipline issues and substance abuse. Don't know if that is still an issue or not, but units should be formed by bringing the right leadership enough of them to give them a 3-5 person span of responsibility the way our doctrine dictates.

The Army isn't a social experiment and people don't have an absolute right to military service. The military is not about the unit acquiescing to the needs of every individual. It is about the individual assimilating the culture and values of the unit. This is where the professional, moral leadership comes in. We have to teach these values in a dignified way that engenders the trust of our soldiers. Some people should not be encouraged to stay in, the right people though have to be retained. Part of that is maintaining the integrity of our mission and core values by not getting caught up in the social justice flavor of the day.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2017 4:34 PM

2017-08-08T16:34:26-04:00

I fall in the category of not wanting to reenlist. Simply because of poor leadship. Leaders don't care. As long as they are getting paid on the 1 st and 15th they could care less. I joined because I had family members that were great leaders. They made sure that soldiers were successful in all ways. This included PT, Family and being successful in your MOS. And the army is now more focused on pushing paperwork instead of creating better soldiers.

Response by CPL Earl Kochis made Aug 8 at 2017 4:38 PM

2017-08-08T16:38:27-04:00

One you have to look at the reason they joined in the first place. I myself when I joined, I wanted to be an airborne soldier. I am also and always have loved my country and being able to serve was is and always will be an honor. Now back to these new soldiers one a lot of them do not take the oath seriously and wanted the sign up bonuses that are being publicized. Two basic training is not the same as it used to be it needs to be toughened back up. Political correctness needs to be thrown out the window. Morale needs to be reassessed and these young boys need to be trained into men. Military life is mentally hard sand these young men need to be taught ways to deal with stress without being coddling them.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2017 4:48 PM

2017-08-08T16:48:34-04:00

I believe that most of the Soldiers that decide the military is because they dont get to do the jobs they thought they would be doing when they signed up to serve in the military. For instance, a Soldier who went to school for several months in a technical field such s communications, aviation filed or military intelligence is now doing some sort of additional duty or driving for one or being an escort for workers, not to mention that in most cases they cant do their job because a "contractor" need to perform their duties. I believe that after a while of doing this it makes them leave the military because they fell under appreciated and not serving a purpose.

Response by Cpl Mike Rupke made Aug 8 at 2017 8:22 PM

2017-08-08T20:22:34-04:00

As for me it took getting out of the military to realize how great the benefits really were. I hit my EAS Feb. of 2016 and after about a year of being out I'm trying to get back in. Simply put it isn't for everyone, and sadly like previously said it all depends on the leaders you encounter while your in. I was lucky to have some extraordinary leaders that inspired me to finish school and get back in with a commission.

Response by SPC Jason Sims made Aug 9 at 2017 12:17 AM

2017-08-09T00:17:56-04:00

I got out after 5 years because my CSM refused to allow me to go to the Sergeant's board. I was going through physical therapy after 2 IEDs in a 3 week period, and CSM denied the waiver my PSG, PL, 1SG, and CO signed. They also went to bat for me and repeatedly asked him to reconsider. After denying my chances for promotion, CSM required me to miss leave in order to attend WLC, even though I was a SPC at the time and preparing for my 3rd deployment. That was when I decided that I was done with the military and chose to ETS.

Response by A1C Matt Zimmerman made Aug 9 at 2017 1:27 AM

2017-08-09T01:27:59-04:00

I know for me it was the lack of care from the higher ups. Contants 12 hour shifts and 7 days a week at home. Even when we finished every thing still 12 hour shifts kept and kept. And for that reason aircraft maintainers have the lowest retention rate. Because to the base only rhing that matters are stats nothing more.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2017 4:26 AM

2017-08-09T04:26:13-04:00

Only been in for a few months and I already wanna get out, doesn't have anything to do with my leadership yet. Just the army isn't what most people think it is so most get out when they see what it mostly is.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2017 10:23 AM

2017-08-09T10:23:47-04:00

As a Marine,All I can make is assumptions. But I know this, the gareison sucks. No body signed up to be there or expected to be there. And with every Random Closet inspection, BS 2 hour -Insert commands concern that talking about will only frustrate their subordinates- formation. Every time some one makes a mechanic blouse his boots in coveralls. They inch closer and closer to not re-enlisting or finding a way out.

Response by SSG Jimmy Cernich made Aug 9 at 2017 10:59 AM

2017-08-09T10:59:52-04:00

I have seen this happening with deployments going on in the Iraq and afghan era.Some are just scared others just can't live up to the discipline it takes.Don't know about today's military its been about 12 yrs I've been out.All you hear about today is gay and transgenders.No matter who you are,you have the obligation to train,stay in shape,be willing to lay your life down for your brother and sisters in arms.You have a duty to protect this country.If you can't figure out who you are you have no business,you have to know who you are and what you are about to live up to military standards.Do you have the best looking uniform,spit shine boots,are you ready and prepared to have the highest pt score,are you practicing enough to qualify expert on pistol,rifle,grenade,and gunnery ranges.Parades and changes of command,funeral details.The military demands the best of you,110 percent.Was I the perfect soldier?No but I expected my squad or platoon to look sharp,shoot sharp,stay in shape and be ready.

Response by PO1 Christine Bilyeu made Aug 9 at 2017 11:46 AM

2017-08-09T11:46:53-04:00

My Army in the early 70s in Germany was toxic, filled with rampant drug use, strong racial unrest and weak apathetic leadership. My b introdunction to my 1st command was stepping into the Orderly Rm with another troop to report in. The 1st Sgt. grabbed a bat and chased us outside yelling at the top of his voice. Things went downhill from there. It's no wonder I didn't re-enlist and stayed out for 6 years before joining the Navy.

Response by LCpl Jeremy Mayeux made Aug 9 at 2017 12:16 PM

2017-08-09T12:16:05-04:00

Idk about the Army but I know the Marine Corps beat the hell outta my body some days I wake up and snap crackle and pop more than my bowl of cereal lol

Response by PVT Jeff Biele made Aug 9 at 2017 12:31 PM

2017-08-09T12:31:50-04:00

I think another problem we have is those who do not complete basic and how we deal with them. Today, the preparation is better, but the screening process has some catching up to do.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2017 1:59 PM

2017-08-09T13:59:05-04:00

The reason many of us are fleeing is simple. I grew up in a military family and surrounded by military members and grew up on their stories. I LOVED hearing about the things they did and the amazing brotherhood that they had and have. But then upon joining we discover the dog and pony show that is peacetime. Useless trainings to appease civilians and make everything look good, mindless hours of "motivational" b.s. about the heroes of the past, and knowing that until a war finally breaks out none of that kinda stuff, and not wanting to reenlist to find out if we can do what we signed on to do. That's my personal view on things and everyone has a different story, but as for myself and and many others this is the case.

Response by SSG P Mendiola made Aug 9 at 2017 2:17 PM

2017-08-09T14:17:11-04:00

I don't blame the army, I blame their leadership.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2017 5:59 PM

2017-08-09T17:59:36-04:00

I mean yes a roof over your head and hot food always good. However underpaid, poor living conditions (depending on posts) , and bad good at defacs or not even open (ex:fort hood). I was tired of it myself, got out never did my actual job and make almost a 100k as a civilian... Jobs pay more outside as a gov contractor then a mil personnel

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2017 7:38 PM

2017-08-09T19:38:12-04:00

I cannot speak for active duty, but the reserves are a trial for motivation. I am out in february, after 8 years. Quite simply put, I joined the reserves to get a jump start on a career change and I have accomplished that. I have used my VA loan, and several other miscellaneous benefits but what it comes down to is money. My civilian job as a system administrator for DOD as a contractor pays immensly, the motivation to take personal leave for BLC isn't there. AT does not cover it, and the 100 bucks a weekend I would make is less than desirable. We get 25% at 20 with no deployments, though this is for life. I know many soldiers who stay in for the Healthcare or extra retirement, it comes down to external requirements and needs outside in the civilian time. It is hard to focus on the ARMY while being a civilian 28 days a month, quite honestly, when I have been on active, it is far better. Stable pay, BAH, free medical. There is shit with every job, I think the active soldiers are just perhaps younger and don't realize that it isn't better in the civilian life. The reserves though is another matter entirely

Response by SGT David Shanley Jr. made Aug 9 at 2017 8:33 PM

2017-08-09T20:33:21-04:00

Half the time the benefits arent that motivating its often the toxic work climate aka toxic leadership.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Aug 9 at 2017 10:46 PM

2017-08-09T22:46:51-04:00

TRUST--the largest numbers of servicemembers leaving service have under 6 years. Over the past 6 years our Nation's leaders have been 'downsizing' or 'right-sizing' and gutting our military and servicemembers feel a lack of worth and service to Nation. All these servicemembers know is downsizing--trust will need to be rebuilt and earned.

Response by SSG Nate Fel made Aug 10 at 2017 10:50 AM

2017-08-10T10:50:07-04:00

Army is selective yet begging for recruits, this has nothing to do with selective , this has to do with downsizing to save money which will lead to implementation of automation . This is not only happening in the military it is happening world wide . There will be less and less of a need for human labor point blank. The move is political based on business strategies . The less need for humans the less insurance , pay etc has to be paid out. It is business move. When the time comes again when our numbers are low and we do have the machines online as anticipated we will force to people to come back in.
As far soldiers getting out . Some are realizing that its great serve the country do your part and then leave to bigger betting things. The dynamics of the old stay at job for hundred years in hopes of retirement check has change across the board . Many are realizing that it is not guaranteed anymore as political and economical aspect change therefore it is smart to take the chance now and do something you really love doing . I say service to the country is great but some have been around too long hence the increase in nepotism , people just there for that retirement check without true love of the job are the ones damaging the force.

Response by SGT Mathew Norman made Aug 10 at 2017 10:59 AM

2017-08-10T10:59:21-04:00

Everyone's experience is different, pfc / spc definitely doesnt have the same quality of life or pay as an LT

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2017 12:04 PM

2017-08-10T12:04:48-04:00

Soldiers only really need 2 things to boost their morale, time and money, make sure they are getting paid and do everything you can to make sure they get free time and encourage talking to retention and career counselors often, I like to emphasize that the military will use you so you might as well use everything it has to offer

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2017 1:34 PM

2017-08-10T13:34:42-04:00

TLDR
This article popped up and I found it so intriguing that I've been reading the responses for half an hour almost.
I can only speak to my own limited experience as an E4 SPC (straight from OSUT into the Army Reserve). I was older when I enlisted at 25. I just wanted to serve and gain the experience of being a soldier. I had no idea what I was in for. All I hear NOW from NCOs is "taking care of soldiers". The first NCOs I met were Drill Sergeants! Whew. Wait a minute... didn't I volunteer for this? If this is any indicator of how the Army values its soldiers, maybe I made a mistake.
That feeling started in the recruiting office, but I didn't listen to it at first. I was bound and determined to prove I could do it. -Now I'm not trying to sound like an elitist here but bare with me- I made a 95 on the ASVAB in HS and when I took it again after college I made a 97. I would hear the recruiters talking about other recruits scores and go huh? Or when they would ask about jail time, crimes, drugs, etc. I just had to shake my head. Are these the people I want to serve with? Join the Army or go to jail? I haven't had so much as a speeding ticket! And from the PT side, I was in very good shape going into OSUT. I trained for it! Did that matter one bit? Hell no! It has been nice at my unit now because I am one of the best in shape and I'm pretty much left alone in that regard. I hope I'm making my point. From my experience (again limited) the mind set, morals, and values I've found in the Army starkly contrast my own.
When I'm in uniform, I'm there, I'll do my job and do it well. And if there's something I need to work on I'll do it without complaining.
I am 3 years into a 6/2 Active Reserve and IRR contract. I will not be re-enlisting.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2017 5:17 PM

2017-08-10T17:17:07-04:00

Medical is the best way to get discharged. Better benefits than just regular ol' retirement.

Response by MAJ Daniel Flynn made Aug 10 at 2017 5:26 PM

2017-08-10T17:26:48-04:00

Leadership is by example and possibly, enough soldiers were betrayed by their command that a tipping point has been reached?

Response by MSgt Michael Isenhour made Aug 10 at 2017 5:32 PM

2017-08-10T17:32:51-04:00

I would have to agree. My last unit developed toxic leadership that made excessive bad decisions. I quite the leadership. It's a shame this is what is happening in our military.

Response by SPC Craig Brickel made Aug 10 at 2017 6:29 PM

2017-08-10T18:29:25-04:00

There is a huge difference between soldiers of lower ranks and NCO'S and officers. The pay and benefits are much lower, they do most of the manual labor, are frequently assigned extra duties and must also do their regular duties. I personally was discouraged by lack of mentorship and despite my trying to improve myself received no direction. Many never meant to join as a career and it's not hard to let things slip when you make the decision to get out. Lastly a medical discharge has a much better future than a standard discharge even shortening your enlistment and giving VA benefits to someone who otherwise has none. Many people thought that they could do 20 years then retire, now that is much more unlikely. In short being a Spc generally sucks.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2017 6:49 PM

2017-08-10T18:49:58-04:00

So, I'm only a SPC but I've been a TL and a SL so that's my qualification. There is a generational gap in the military right now. The millennial generation needs feesback and they need to be involved, what they're doing right and what they're doing wrong and they need to be included in that process. This generation also values fairness and honesty over everything else, you can look at the Social Justice movement and the Free Speech/Transparency movement for examples of that. The problem is that the military currently doesn't do any of that. Looking at feedback, for the most part you won't get an award for doing the right thing. That comes when you're about to leave your current duty station for another one. You won't be told when you're doing something right. There's no "good jobs" or "attaboys" for the most part. But if you fuck up even a little bit there's 3 or 4 NCOs there to tell you what you did wrong and punish you for it.

That moves us into fairness, how is it fair to give someone a negative counselling, a smoke session, and bring up their failure in their monthly counselling but never recognize or reward them when they do something right? How is it fair for an NCO to skip CDR's call because he doesn't want to go but a PFC can't even bring it up? If its by rank then how come that SGT gets scrapped on for doing the same thing? If its because the other NCO is hard worker the why don't hard working SPCs get privileges? The standard isn't the same.

Then when it comes to transparency it seems like the Army is violently opposed to the idea at a fundamental level. Rewards are not based on rank but Command Teams downgrade ARCOMs because "A Private doesn't even rate an AAM!" NCOs will be fair and impartial in recommending both reward and punishment but their favorites are untouchable and the ones they dislike are always either on a bullshit detail or in the leaning rest.

You can say what you want about new Soldiers not knowing their benefits but that comes across as incredibly disingenuous when it comes from an LT. And an NCO that has been in the Army for 16 years telling a SPC that left his job as an accountant 3 years ago that there are no civilian jobs and he won't be able to handle his expenses on the outside is laughable.

When I was leading Soldiers, I made sure that any detail they were on, I was on. And I wasn't "supervising" I was edging the sidewalk or mopping the supply room with them. I made sure that if something was coming down the pipe then they knew about it. If I was counselling them on something they messed up then I made sure they had the opportunity to explain themselves. If I had to escalate it I made sure they understood and if I had to get in their face they didn't hold it against me because I took the time to listen to them. Any punishment I gave to the dirtbags in my squad I gave to the high speeds when they made the same mistake. If they did something good, I would let them know. If they were knocking it out of the park I gave them a positive event oriented counselling and I made sure their monthly counselling reflected the good and bad of what they did that month. That's the way to lead now. You can't expect blind obedience or respect just because of your stop red or bars. You have to earn your Soldiers' respect and confidence and take the time to mentor them. Otherwise, you're just gonna keep seeing Soldiers leave and they're gonna keep ignoring you when you patronizingly tell them how great a deal the Army is.

Response by LTC Silviu Bora made Aug 10 at 2017 6:51 PM

2017-08-10T18:51:31-04:00

People Quit People

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Aug 10 at 2017 7:22 PM

2017-08-10T19:22:24-04:00

Because someone didn't shut the door! Honestly if you paid them what they are worth you couldn't afford a standing Army in this country. The long separations, low pay, what would make you want to stay outside of a burning desire to fulfill your patriotic duty to your country. I have no idea? I know I respect the heck out of all our military veterans and ask that God Bless them and keep them safe while the are in the service to their country.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2017 7:27 PM

2017-08-10T19:27:13-04:00

As a Sgt in the guard, I'm looking to get out myself. I have 12 years in and I wanna call it quits. There's always admin stuff to take care of, and no time for training. I only get to do my MOS during my AT and that's even half assed because of the chemicals we use. I'd rather train no matter what the task is. I can't even do driver training with my troops. On top of all that, the last 2 squad leaders plus the last 2 platoon sgt's don't really care. They're just holding slots till they're done. With no support from good leadership what else is there to do?

Response by SGT Chris McDonald made Aug 10 at 2017 7:28 PM

2017-08-10T19:28:24-04:00

I don't believe this is anything new. It happened when I was in. Although it may be a grander scale now, it has been going on for a long time. Maybe since alot if the combat operations are slowing down, they are figuring out that there is more to the Military than combat.

Response by CPL Anthony Jones made Aug 10 at 2017 9:11 PM

2017-08-10T21:11:44-04:00

Hahaha look at the leadership and you'll understand why e4 and below with 5 years or more leave. Politics has destroyed the military.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2017 9:37 PM

2017-08-10T21:37:23-04:00

I've seen what could be the APFT/ABCP loophole being used a lot more frequently too. To tell you the truth, it's because we as leaders are enforcing the standard. Look soldiers of all ranks will decide enough is enough and move on. That's just life. I agree toxic leaders will cause mass exodus in some units. To try and put one cause of service members leaving the military is narrow minded. There isn't one cause or another that is the single reason people leave the service. I counsel my soldiers good or "needs improvement" when they state they are not re-enlisting. I ask them to spell out a 5 year plan to me. Just to see if they thought that far ahead. Then layout where they could be in the same 5 year span, if they stayed. Either way it's their choice. Good discussion point though. Got me thinking.

Response by SPC Ronald Vera made Aug 10 at 2017 9:44 PM

2017-08-10T21:44:12-04:00

I reenlisted and finished my second. I had a terrible leader my last two years in whp made it his mission to find everything I did wrong. I wasnt a perfect soldier, but I wasnt the worst. Other soldiers were favored and werent discharged for things ojr command was adamant would get us booted. It caused me to lose my passion to be a leader in the Army, soldiers need motivation, they look to leadership to make them WANT to work for them.

Response by SSG Kasius McCall made Aug 10 at 2017 9:55 PM

2017-08-10T21:55:53-04:00

We have a serious problem with this in my unit. First term soldiers getting out and there is no talking them out of it. It's all based on bad experiences and bad leadership at the top. You can only do so much as a section chief to hold things together.

Response by SPC Cynthia Silvis made Aug 10 at 2017 9:58 PM

2017-08-10T21:58:01-04:00

There are many that want to do something else, life gets in the way, poor leadership etc, but there are those that (IMO) have the "entitled" mind set and learned that the military doesn't catered to them.

Response by PO2 Sherman Smith made Aug 10 at 2017 10:04 PM

2017-08-10T22:04:03-04:00

For most, this is the first job they have had. Most people don't make a career of their first job. Many join because of a sense of patriotic duty. As time goes on the ones who should leave stay and push the juniors who pose a threat out.
Because most service members are young, they resent being bossed around by peers. The E5 is only 4 years older than the E1. If someone in the civilian world bossed me around like they do in the service. Well, I would kick the crap out of him.
This is the War business, being physical is a great way to settle issues. Respect would rise and the bully would get out.
I am against this idea that we should all act like professionals this is combat, " play hard. Kill the enemy. " if a couple of eyes are blackend and a nose or two get broken. We will be better off for it.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2017 10:19 PM

2017-08-10T22:19:58-04:00

This is just the way it always has been. Many join for benefits and just get out. You can't have everyone stay in. You would clog up the promotion system.

Response by SSG(P) Brian Kliesen made Aug 10 at 2017 10:27 PM

2017-08-10T22:27:08-04:00

In the reserves we are so overwhelmed with required training that has to be completed immediately, that we rarely have time for real training. EO, SHARP, Army Accident Avoidance, TRIPS, Resiliency, Suicide Prevention, Medpros, LHI, etc., that the average soldier does not want to come to drill anymore. And the training is repeated over and over and over. Higher always has a way of taking our training schedule and trashing it by mandating that some sort of online training has to be completed, and we have exactly 3 working computers for the entire unit. I can keep my medics busy with training, but many others just hang out and do nothing. Benefits? A young married soldier with kids barely makes enough to survive. Myself and many of my soldiers that were activated from the reserves took a huge pay cut from our civilian jobs. How Active Duty soldiers do it is beyond me. Many of us qualified for food stamps, or assistance in order to make ends meet. As for Medical discharge, some soldiers get in to the Army, don't like the discipline and working conditions and feel that it's the easy way out. The Army is also very good at breaking soldiers, particularly in those especially physical and high tempo operations that some MOS's have to deal with.

Response by PFC Charles Sanders made Aug 10 at 2017 11:21 PM

2017-08-10T23:21:10-04:00

Most people, at least when I was in, didn't worry about the less desirable tasks. While they suck you're gonna have those at any job. What I witnessed people really complain about was the BS crap and lack of respect for the enlisted soldier. I worked at a 24/7 facility where we worked 12 hour shifts (9-9). There were countless times the night shift would be called into the company on their day off and/or what amounted to the middle of their night for BS "training" that amounted to flipping through a printed PowerPoint presentation and signing the roster. It was usually things like EO trainings (SHARPS now?) and crap like that. The CO and 1SG had no respect for us or our time. Yes, there are some things you just need to suck it up and drive on, but some things you shouldn't have to. That's just one example, I could go on. You want a higher retention in your command? Treat your soldiers like people and not equipment. It'll boost morale and people will want to stay. Also realize that while serving in combat arms may be fun and cool, it doesn't teach you a marketable trade. A lot of guys in infantry, artillery, etc... are completing that chapter of their life, taking the many lessons they did learn, and heading back to school or into a trade where they can make a lot more cash than the enlisted ranks pay. Can't fault them for that either.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2017 12:08 AM

2017-08-11T00:08:12-04:00

What, pray tell, do you know about the "civilian sector?" I feel like I just read the contemptuous lament of a patrician who cannot, for the life of him, fathom why his ubderpaid, overworked, and overqualified servants could have the nerve to leave and seek an alternate livelihood. Ever looked at the LES of a single PFC or SPC? The "civilian sector" also has this wonderful thing - should be familiar to you - called college. If they make the conscious decision to ETS and have the GI Bill, I would encourage them to take advantage of that opportunity and wish them success on their journey. Furthermore, if you think guys are getting out simply because "they don't realize how good they have it," maybe you should start looking for a new career as well.

Response by SGT Andrew Van Donselaar made Aug 11 at 2017 7:26 AM

2017-08-11T07:26:32-04:00

It's this generation that wants everything handed to them and not work for it. I put in 17+ got broke along the way. I'm fighting to get the disability. These kids want it handed to them on a plater and get it for free. And not be yelled at.

Response by SPC Christopher McMahon made Aug 11 at 2017 7:49 AM

2017-08-11T07:49:49-04:00

The overwhelming majority of soldiers, only do one enlistment. That is how it's always been. Why are you even asking this question? I don't disagree with some of your points (I re-enlisted once), but for most the Army is not a career.

Response by MAJ Luca Luca made Aug 11 at 2017 9:14 AM

2017-08-11T09:14:11-04:00

Although it seems like there has been a high attrition rate in recent years, in the past, it was worse. There care stressors that recruiters don't tell you and the basics of Military training can not prepare you for.
There will be a lot who say it is toxic leadership, the breakdown of the leadership chain to proactively do their mission and provide motivation, direction and discipline within their area of responsibility. They are correct, but not wholly.
There are many factors, such as the job sucks. Mentally, a generation of troops are unprepared for bordom. Even in areas of imminent danger, there is not a "Call of Duty" scenario every moment. Old soldiers know if you experience that moment, you don't want another, young troops expect Halo, every minute, until they get it. You have a generation of soldiers who expect that they receive awards for showing up and get promoted when they do something right. You have leadership that is busy fluffing their resumé and which government contractor they will work for as soon as they get out, to worry about guiding and directing young troops to be better and to think better. Then you have the shortage of resources and the stretching of human assets. In the smaller, more mobile military, you have guys who have been deployed 50% of their 4 year enlistment. Guys with 5 to 6 deployments before reaching E-5. This is tiring and doesn't show any signs of letting up, unless you are back on the block as a civilian. Then there is the pay. Which personally, I feel is the bottom line. How are going to tell a 21 year old SPC that Army life is good when he could just as well get out, make $18 at the Target Distribution Center or $25 working for Daikin, under the union and get health benefits which are covered as well. If he lived off post, he still would have made less in the Military, cash wise. These things add up in the mind of a mint troop. Very few of them are under our direct control. In the end, not everyone can be a soldier, not everyone has that ethos. You don't want them. Concentrate on the troops that want to be there. You also don't want them to poison the environment. A troop with a bad attitude can do more damage than all the other crap above put together.
If it truly concerns you, maintain your leadership role and take guidance from your NCO support. They are the ones that should have a finger on the unit pulse. They will make you a better officer and will help you get the things you need sqaured away. If they don't then it may be time to look for a powwow with a bigger link in the chain.

Response by PO2 Stephanie Coons made Aug 11 at 2017 9:41 AM

2017-08-11T09:41:52-04:00

The military is probably not the lifestyle they expected. It's not as militant as it could be, and their superiors probably have major character flaws.

Response by SPC Jonathan Scott made Aug 11 at 2017 9:53 AM

2017-08-11T09:53:16-04:00

All I got to say is some units have fuck up move up. Sadly many mos that are highly technical pay more in civilian side. My mos being one. So basically most unless you just did not learn troubleshooting and tech aspects you would leave why. Most of our nco came from other parts of army because again most would leave for AT&T or other tech company or even come back as contracterto the government. to serve as network admins 100k plus. So you have folks in charge yelling at you to make it work because they have no clue and are in charge basically time in service from another mos or you have nco with no mos back ground who under stood that one we know our jobs know we going to leave after four years and just would say you make me look good I won't bother you. Seriously I made 50k the four year I served my first contract my bonus was 50 up front and my quartly bonus were from5k to 30k yet my yearly salary was 110k out of the army doing same job my leadership team thought was profile bitch and fuck up. Never mind my leadership had no clue I had scored 91 out 99 my gt score was 160. My lowest score was 130 as far as what the military look at. Even before my ICU stay of 6 month and permenant profile I had been e4 in 18 months was e4p 20 months but never made e5 because of getting injured. NY leadership team did not even come visit me once during the 6 months I was in ICU. Instead they kept calling at first is he faking it even with doctor saying he has 90% chance of dieing. Instead more worried about me faking it they were more worried about not having 100% soldier capabilities.

Response by SSG John Jennett made Aug 11 at 2017 11:36 AM

2017-08-11T11:36:10-04:00

When I was a retention NCO, a large portion of my success was due to breaking it down to the Soldiers what benefits they receive that they wouldn't get in the civilian job market. This was more compounded for those Soldiers that had families to take care of.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2017 11:56 AM

2017-08-11T11:56:24-04:00

I can't speak for anyone but from what I can see many joined during war. They didn't experience the strict side of the military before war. The rules during war were very relaxed and many punishments were pushed to the wayside. Now that army is moving back to no war machine the rules are starting to become stricter. My brother is one of these that joined during war and couldn't stand how strict the army was getting after war. I joined before war and knew what was expected when the war was coming to a close and that the rules would become strict again. I was prepared whereas many of these soldiers are/were not prepared so when the clamps starting coming down they didn't/don't want to deal with it.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2017 12:19 PM

2017-08-11T12:19:50-04:00

My experiences have led me to this: in the incessant push for a fully college educated Army, you have an environment where thr Average Soldier is much smarter than the 20+year Senior NCO's. Commanders and NCO's who are incredibly reckless with their Soldier's time; a 0600 formation for a layout only to be actually inspected at 1900. How is that , in ANY WAY, a sufficient use of time?

My favorite is the : The outside world is full of unemployment and youll never make it. ( coming from those who havent been on the outside in 15+ years.) Or the Age old 1SG favorite: a promotion board is just like a job interview. What a load of shit. How the hell would you know? Youre a 1SG, which means time invested in the Army. Or the useless Soldier for life class requiring you to write a budget for them. Fuck off much? The second the Soldier leaves the Army, all "care" for them ceases to be.

I realize I pontificated there for a minute, but it boils down to this : Senior NCO's and officers are toxic and ineffective when dealing with the development of Soldiers.

Theres a reason why US Army WTF moments exists.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2017 12:48 PM

2017-08-11T12:48:32-04:00

I can only speak from my reserves side... the problem I found was it was hard for me to balance civilian life with my Army life. I would work all week then do the weekend warrior thing on my weekend and PT became the big issue. You could be a s***bag soldier and no one cares but fail a PT test or height and weight and start chaptering you out. Now I agree PT is important, and part of staying army ready, but it takes more then that to make a great soldier. Also my unit would treat every drill like mini basic training. A lot of the NCOs were power hungry and would constantly set up the soldiers who they knew would mess up just for an excuse to mass punish all of us. Like I said I did 6 years Reserves and got out for 3 year. I've just recently reenlisted active this time hoping for a complete different experience, better leaders, and a better life.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2017 12:57 PM

2017-08-11T12:57:26-04:00

The time and experience will change a person. Self confident prick I was, I chose to ignore bad leaders and do what I like most of the time. You don't care? I double don't car

Response by MSG Dale Lee made Aug 11 at 2017 1:58 PM

2017-08-11T13:58:12-04:00

I have found leaders make the unit. In 24 years I've had good and bad units, and watched and learned. I tried to instill and put to use the leadership I was taught. Senior NCOs are what build and keep the working NCOs in line. An officer corp is stronger if they stick to business and stay out of NCOs business. If the NCO corp is broke it will be A lot of grumbling troops. A soldier joins for many reasons but if they understand their function is to be a soldier, a part of the team, just take care of them by training them to be that. Reward and discipline equal, and some rewards might be saying good job when they are beat. You can't be a pleaser to everyone but as professionals we can act it, and follow sound doctrine. The best advice I can tell an unhappy troop is try a different command, put in for a transfer.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2017 2:01 PM

2017-08-11T14:01:41-04:00

I do not post a lot. But I have to drop a line. I speak for me self here. There is a general feeling of not reaching your potential which is tantalizingly close and yet so far away.
Take me for example. I started as a 91J and the units I got assigned to did not have equipment for me to fix. So naturally I was stuck in the motor pool doing other 91 series related stuff, but because I have experience in Elwctronics due to my Avionics background I worked in anything with an electric circuit. Was it great? Yes!! Did I feel useful? Yes! But as more was demanded from me where I could not deliver due to not having the proper tools (a mechanic tool box does not have the tools to troubleshoot the new digital touch control on the generator) I found me self on a shit list. When I asked for proper tools I was told I simply do not need them because it is not my MOS.
Then one day we (my platoon) have a recruiting meeting with the MI guys and they painted this awsome picture.
So I go for it. I work out. Loose weight do 270 and above on my PT. Improve on my language I have and add two more (Russian 3/3/4, Ukrainian 2/2+ and Kiswahili 3/3/3) get MOS qualified and get noticed. The doors just opened to do some cool stuff. Then it all fizzles down and when I asked for some opportunities I was told to check out Tour of Duty website where there is nothing pertaining to my MOS. So now you are back to square 1 where you just come, maintain your standards so as not to get into trouble and chug along. All the wind is out of my sails. How do you come back from that? Everything was soo close and yet where did I take the wrong turn?
So when the retention NCO comes about and starts talking to me about staying he has nothing to sell. Education package-got that, benefits-have better at my job, pay?- I make twice as much in a day at work than when I do my weekend drills. What is there to keep me. I my case I looked forward to do some cool stuff. Now I know that ain't happening any time soon.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2017 3:01 PM

2017-08-11T15:01:00-04:00

Something we need to realize is the juice is not always worth the squeeze. Soldiers pay for their leaders decisions. If just one leader a day screws up, the Soldiers will be screwed every day. Something to think about when a Soldiers wife leaves him because there is always some leader somewhere has a last minute 3 hour task to announce at 1800 when Soldiers been in formation waiting to go home since 1645. I've said since I was a PFC leaders will not become responsible or efficient until they have to start paying overtime or be held responsible for breaking someone off doing stupid shit. I got an ex11B who is now medical MOS because of leaders not allowing him the opportunity to heal. It's disgraceful. He could MEB right now and get his 50%. Fortunately his doc convinced him to reclass. Thank God because dude is smart as hell. He probably better leader than me once he gets promoted and moves up a position.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2017 3:17 PM

2017-08-11T15:17:05-04:00

It's the online training...

Response by SPC Dave Behrens made Aug 11 at 2017 4:15 PM

2017-08-11T16:15:14-04:00

I don't think 100% retention is really a goal, or should be. Guys join for a variety of reasons, and many never planned to do more than the minimum requirement to get that goal. At the same time the military needs turnover. Only so many can get promoted to fill slots and the rest RCP'd out or you'd have a military full of career CSM's and no one to clean the toilets.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2017 4:52 PM

2017-08-11T16:52:31-04:00

Sir, based on my experiences as an e4. I think a lot of it has to do with leadership. I was very hesitant to reenlist due to the lack of leadership i have had. I can show you a counciling packet an inch thick. Its all initials because so many ncos refused to take responsibility of me, none for negative reasons. Here lately ive realised that favoritism, personal liking, and who you hang out with off duty matter when youre on duty. We have so many e5, e6, e7s who are still only 20 something years old and dont know how to lead. Or are affraid of responsibility. I as an e4 had a ssg, plus 2 e5s over me. Yet i had the sections hand reciept. My ncos were afraid of the responsibility. But also some of the retention problems fall on junior enlisted to. They fail to respect leadership. Complain when its to easy and to hard. They think its just a job but its a life style thats always evolving. Not to mention soldiers are getting lazier and always wanting to pass the buck and accept no blame. I reenlisted and reclassed with the intent to make my nco ranks and try to drive and change that. Hopefully some of my battle buddies will do the same.

Response by PFC David McLeod made Aug 11 at 2017 5:35 PM

2017-08-11T17:35:00-04:00

As one of those PFCs all I can say is if it concerns you that much care more for your troops than your career.
Yes, the army ain't for everyone and there is a somewhat natural weeding of the ranks at the end of the first enlistment there are many like myself who weighed the decision heavily. In my case I don't play well with ticket punchers.
I passed any board threw at me always finishing first, scored the highest in my MOS battalion wide but at the end of the day I'd rather being doing my job rather than worrying about how to make my LT look good.

Response by PV2 Michael Whiddon made Aug 11 at 2017 5:59 PM

2017-08-11T17:59:00-04:00

Based on my personal experience, it's because their Chain of command and NCO support channel failed them spectacularly.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2017 6:20 PM

2017-08-11T18:20:45-04:00

Your out of yoir mind dude. The army shots on people left and right. I did 10 years an wish it had only been two after seeing how good civilian job treat employees. You do t get talked to like a damn dog. Treated like a prisoner or a 3 year old child by people half your age and most of whom have never in their life had any real responsibility, such as raising kids, or paying bills, or meeting quotas. Just promote the imbeciles who can run really fast. That's why everyone with half a brain is getting out of the army!

Response by SGT William Goble made Aug 11 at 2017 6:49 PM

2017-08-11T18:49:28-04:00

Most of my NCO's reclassed for the bonus as an 88m having to show your superior how to properly pmcs a vehicle or drive it will only make it worse

Response by MSgt Mike Horn made Aug 11 at 2017 7:17 PM

2017-08-11T19:17:31-04:00

Send them on their way as soon as you can. You will rid yourself of the 10 percent non hackers that way. If you hold on to them ...YOU...are the problem and need to go home yourself for not doing your job as a NCO

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2017 7:52 PM

2017-08-11T19:52:21-04:00

The military left me to rot...I should have been a troop to leave but I had reenlisted only to be discharged with a general instead of walking away with an honorable discharge. The reason I should have not reenlisted is because we were 40% manned and nobody would train us. The supervisor verbally banged me for things I did wrong and if nothing was wrong he would bring up things from months before... that is my views on it and why many want to leave. The system is broken.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2017 9:12 PM

2017-08-11T21:12:56-04:00

I came out of active duty Air Force back in 2005 with the inforced attitude of lead, follow or get the hell out of the way. I got into the Army and got a huge wake up call to what things are really about. I was in Combat Arms. I sucked it up and didn't whine. I reenlisted into a medical unit where I got to see things from a different perspective. Then I got my second wake up call. My 2nd deployment to Iraq. I got hurt pretty bad and heard every name in the book for the amount of times I visited the TMC. It hasn't stopped me from reenlisting another time in the same unit. What I see coming into the reserves are people looking a college, bonuses and not realizing you have to pass hight and weight along with PT to maintain anything close to what the requirement. I'm used to the excuses for why when I file a DA Form 268 for a flag but not the tears when reality sets in that they might have to pay back the money. If recruitment goals want these people to stay in, making sure some items sink in might be a better goal.

Response by SFC Keith Kingsley made Aug 11 at 2017 9:27 PM

2017-08-11T21:27:09-04:00

Either they want to get back to their old jobs, or feel that school will make them better. Also some of them would stay in if there was a chance to get promoted in the near future.

Response by SPC Tim Fox made Aug 11 at 2017 10:28 PM

2017-08-11T22:28:37-04:00

For me, the emphasis on form over function convinced me to get out. Nobody seemed to care about getting things done well, but only going through the motions. Painting rocks to make an area pretty is not an adequate use of time. The lack of mental challenge was also a huge issue. To run fast, polish your boots, and buddy up with e6 and above is the focus, why would anyone wish to stay? Have goals and seek greatness.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2017 10:58 PM

2017-08-11T22:58:24-04:00

Failing NCOs. I have been trying to get out for injuries sustained while deployed. It has take no short of two and half years because the company readiness NCO was about to reiterate and messed up all th paperwork. After pointing this out no one cared because he was protected in this company ( I was transferred here after promotion). This company has always been on non combat related deployments and lives in the rear. The duction strictly to protect themselves instead of training soldiers for combat and the skills that they should know when it comes time to deploy to a combat zone. Let alone the things they should know for when they become NCOs.

Response by SGT Sean Hale made Aug 11 at 2017 11:15 PM

2017-08-11T23:15:27-04:00

Let them leave so someone who really wants the benefits and deserves promotion can get it screw these deadbeats and as far as any soldier trying for a medical discharge you as a leader should council them about this and not that they make mention of it so that maybe the MEB might get a hold of this and deny their claims or at least look further into them to make sure they are not trying to make a false claim.

Response by SFC Ron Snow made Aug 12 at 2017 12:08 AM

2017-08-12T00:08:40-04:00

As a senior leader I would sit and talk with these soldiers I would make them right out the pros and cons of the military the pros and the cons of getting out and then have them do a detailed list of what their plan was and to show me what they were doing to be successful if they decided to leave the military it always pain me to see good soldiers leave especially if I felt they would become good noncommissioned officers but as one of the post said the Army is not for everyone I kept pamphlets from JAG in my office to show the soldiers what benefits they would be missing out on should they get anything then an honorable discharge that helped to open a few of their eyes and they stayed and performed until it was their normal UTSA I agree you do not banter or try to force a soldier to stay in if they truly want out as a leader it is our job to ensure at the decision that they make is best for them and they have all the tools they need to be successful either in the army or in the civilian life I hope this helps you cuz at first glance it appears that you are a leader that cares about their men and the future of our army

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2017 1:02 AM

2017-08-12T01:02:19-04:00

Many just don't want to do the dirty work and want to be management right away. They complain and do little, and quit before they give his unit and himself a chance. I see young captains with ranger tab quit; cannot get along with 1SG during command, quit; I just laugh at others and did not quit.

Response by SSG Robert Cosper made Aug 12 at 2017 1:50 AM

2017-08-12T01:50:52-04:00

They are tired of the b.s. this current President is trying to pull.

Response by Cpl Greggory Allen made Aug 12 at 2017 1:54 AM

2017-08-12T01:54:03-04:00

Only a shot here but do a little research and see what the current retention rate is for soldiers at the end of their first enlistment. Compare that to the number of soldiers you're seeing have these few problems.

We had just as many ultra motivated Marines as we did slackers. I would wager that's true on your end too. But we see the ones needing help more than the rock stars.

As for what to do.... That's a rough one. But a simple talk and question will usually answer it. Ask them like men/women they are if they WANT it. Their face will tell you long before their words will. The ones that you believe want it are where you have to focus your efforts.

Response by SPC Warren Capps made Aug 12 at 2017 4:48 AM

2017-08-12T04:48:41-04:00

I was medically discharged against my will due to poor leadership. Many with the same injury stayed in. Abusive nco's and a command that looked the other way. Too stuck in garrison mindset. 2005ish

Response by SGT Jimmy Howard made Aug 12 at 2017 8:31 AM

2017-08-12T08:31:16-04:00

Another thing that doesn't help is the Army has gotten really politically correct over the years. As it becomes more of a social experiment and Sgts lose their authority to tell a chewed up soldier to do lil corrective training excercises the morale of E6 and below goes down. Nothing worse than a Pvt in formation telling a Staff Sgt what he aint gonna do, I seen it at Ft Bliss as I was on my way out courtesy MEB.

Response by SPC Chris Privateer made Aug 12 at 2017 8:45 AM

2017-08-12T08:45:43-04:00

Many people do not enjoy leaving their family for weeks or more. Many people would like to be able to call their boss and say "I'm sick, I can't cone in today" rather than, while trying not to throw up, go to sick call and wait for a doctor to agree... or even disregard their discomfort and tell them to just eat bread and rice, but going to work is still required. Getting up every morning for mandatory PT can become irritating. Sometimes you just don't want to run, especially in a formation.

Some people think they can manage their own living space without their boss occasionally visiting it to make sure it's clean. Maybe a bunch of people would like to make the decision about where they live. Perhaps a few people would like to take college courses without the risk of failing due to going to pretend they're in a war zone, when they clearly are not, but they still don't have internet anyway.

How about that hot chow, which is actually cold and rubbery by the time you get to it? How about those times you go to a foreign country where there are people actively trying to kill you, the politics of doing which you may or may not personally agree with?

There are times you plan on going to the park with your beautiful, smart children, but somebody in your unit did something wrong, so now you get to spend the next four hours at your company instead. I could keep going.

The military does, in fact, provide significant, meaningful benefits... but what's the point if it makes you unhappy? I, personally, wouldn't trade my experiences in the military, because it was a major stepping stone of my life, and allowed me to get where I am now... but I defenitely prefer where I am now to it. Simply put, the military life isn't for everyone, regardless how otherwise beneficial it may truly be.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2017 8:55 AM

2017-08-12T08:55:17-04:00

"People don't quit organizations, people quit leaders." Love that quote.

Response by SPC Chris Privateer made Aug 12 at 2017 9:19 AM

2017-08-12T09:19:11-04:00

I have one more example: I'm a civilian now. When I need to go to the bathroom, I walk to it.

In the military, in the field or deployed, you have put on your uniform, your battle rattle, make sure you have your inspectable items, ensure that weapon's in your hand, go to the porta-potty, maneuver all of your gear out of the way, use the stink-hole, clean up, reposition everything, then go back to what you were doing.

Just to use the restroom.

And now? Now I don't have to worry about any of that.

This isn't a specific example so much as an analogy. Civilians just go to the bathroom... because they want to. No red tape, no hassle. They need to do something, so they just do it.

Response by CW4 Angel C. made Aug 12 at 2017 11:47 AM

2017-08-12T11:47:23-04:00

Young Soldiers and Officers have always been getting out sooner than hoped for. Some come in so they can get the GI Bill and get out and go to college, others fulfilled their personal obligation to serve their nation, others get tired of the BS (low morale), others are stuck in an MOS they don't like, etc etc. It's part of the military. Ensure that your unit is not part of a low morale issue, thank them for their service, and drive on!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2017 6:09 PM

2017-08-12T18:09:30-04:00

While the military as a whole thrives on your one term and out population, honestly if you make it past the first enlistment you generally aren't a worker bee anymore but in some kind of management position. When did it become OK to get separated early? What happened to honoring your end of the agreement?

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Aug 12 at 2017 11:06 PM

2017-08-12T23:06:33-04:00

LT, have you done any research on answers to your query?

I would be curious if the re-up % has varied / diminished in the last ? generation of Service persons?

Response by SSG Mike Stewart made Aug 13 at 2017 7:49 AM

2017-08-13T07:49:44-04:00

Attitude reflects leadership!!!
Get rid of bad leadership!!!

Response by SGT Jay Raquidan made Aug 13 at 2017 11:16 AM

2017-08-13T11:16:54-04:00

When I was in the Army as a leader if I had a soldier that wanted to get out I would sit down with that soldier and ensure that he is ready for life outside of the Army I always kept my phone line open in case he or she ever needed anything it's not just about caring about your soldiers it's also about caring about another human being and their life.

Response by SPC Craig Miller made Aug 13 at 2017 1:42 PM

2017-08-13T13:42:45-04:00

The military needs to start treating its members like adults.

Response by SGT Felicia King made Aug 13 at 2017 5:02 PM

2017-08-13T17:02:59-04:00

All they need is 3 years to get the college money. Senator McCain tried to make it a minimum of six years but to no avail. Would have been better as six. One of my soldiers wanted to get out after just her first unit. Let her know not all units were as shitty as her first, she stayed and now outranks me (seeing as how I got out).

Response by SPC Todd Hanson made Aug 13 at 2017 5:07 PM

2017-08-13T17:07:32-04:00

Sir,

I did on re-enlistment and said to my self the army can't be this bad. So I PCS from Ft wainwright to FT Jackson. Had good letership to start actually the best ever then change of command and change of responsibility happened and I saw even far worse leadership and got hurt in the meantime and MEB'ed and accepted what they offered and a year later I am glad I got out and now work as a GS for DFAS.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2017 7:21 PM

2017-08-13T19:21:32-04:00

As lower enlisted, here's my POV.
Background: Indiana National Guard.

Most of my friends who are getting out are doing so because of all the time waste, unnecessary tasks we have to complete. Now to be fair, we don't have to do these things every day, only on a drill weekend. And it still drives everyone nuts. Soldiers love to be useful. To do their jobs. My squad leader would find things that were out of our normal jobs (recovery training, for example.) just to make us more rounded soldiers. He's the exception to the rule. I can't imagine what it's like performing menial tasks EVERY DAY for my AD brothers and sisters. Layouts, sharp briefings, PowerPoint. SSD 1 was the biggest waste of time in my military career. Every drill weekend starts with, "it all depends on you. You get the work done, you can go home." We know it's a lie. We're usually done by about 1300, and sit around until final formation at 1700. I'm not remotely saying we have it worse than AD, I'm saying in the short time we're in uniform every month, soldiers are driven crazy enough to want to leave. I can't imagine it on the AD side.

Someone suggested getting advice from civilian leadership trainers. I couldn't agree more. When soldiers feel like what they're doing makes a difference or means something, I believer they'll want to stick around a bit longer.

One final example. It was recently out out by our command that my first line and squad leader have to once a week contact me by phone call and document when and what was said. I'm 28 years old. 3 kids and been married for almost 7 years. 401 k, savings account, insurance. What I'm getting at is, I'm an adult. I do adult things. I don't need someone only 3 years older than me calling every week to check on me. If I need something, I'll call him. Why, because I'm an adult. I could almost understand if I have been a troubled soldier, but I do my job, show up on time and in the right uniform, etc. This applies to the entire company. Most of our lower enlisted are over 25. Most have families and full time jobs. It's time the Army (and military on general) treats its soldiers like adults until they prove otherwise.

Response by PO1 J Lewis made Aug 13 at 2017 7:58 PM

2017-08-13T19:58:33-04:00

Many leave because they want to pursue their education. I worked with an E4 who was great, but he knew he was getting out. He went to college, got his degree and a PhD. Now he is a department head at a college. But he has his shellback certificate on the wall behind his desk.

Response by SSG Jim Byrd made Aug 13 at 2017 10:19 PM

2017-08-13T22:19:17-04:00

There is an old saying, "Joe votes with his feet." Once the value proposition slants to a point where they do not see the value in staying in, its over. Granted, these are people whowant to be challenged and pushed.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2017 10:36 PM

2017-08-13T22:36:04-04:00

A good start would be to crackdown on the rampant abuse of power by leadership, and hold marksmanship on the same level as the apft. My last 1st sergeant was ridiculously anal retentive about pt, but couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with a nuke. I also witnessed multiple occasions where upper enlisted and officers forced lower enlisted to do unsupervised tasks that they weren't qualified for while the upper enlisted and officers left to go get coffee. So maybe fix that crap, and the retention numbers will get better

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2017 11:05 PM

2017-08-13T23:05:03-04:00

It's a different mentality now. For a generation of soldiers who grew up in an expeditionary force the thought of an all garrison army is an evil we wouldn't wish on our worst enemies. For a lot of guys, when the war ended the sense of purpose went with it. Just my two cents.

Response by SSG Ken Gilder made Aug 14 at 2017 1:21 AM

2017-08-14T01:21:10-04:00

I know one thing that soured a lot of troops, and that was "makework." Insignificant details, such as painting rocks. When I was in Korea, I heard a lot of grumbling about petty stuff. The troops had another name for it: Chicken****.

If something needs to be done, do it during duty hours. Assigning troops to petty details after duty hours, is, quite often, not well received.

Attitude plays a role. If a soldier likes what he's doing, he could make the service a career. If he hates what he's doing, he'll be gone as soon as his enlistment is up.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2017 2:35 AM

2017-08-14T02:35:28-04:00

Benefits don't out weight toxic leadership. Simple as that. They see so much bad leadership. Or NCOs or officers that are not concerned with the JR enlisted because they are expendable. They can kick one out and there will always be one to replace them.

Response by SFC Ken Reynolds made Aug 14 at 2017 3:47 AM

2017-08-14T03:47:06-04:00

I believe it stems from multiple deployments to combat zones in a no win situation with no relief in sight for many of these young soldiers. Couple that with toxic leadership then you have the reason for low retention in ranks.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2017 8:24 AM

2017-08-14T08:24:28-04:00

The navy is the same way. It's true about leaders as I am currently undecided on reenlisting but have planned several paths in or out of the navy for myself.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2017 9:41 AM

2017-08-14T09:41:54-04:00

I can’t speak for active duty army but I’ve personally seen guys in my guard unit fail pt and get promoted the next drill. I know of others who’ve gone through a whole enlistment and the only pt test they passed was to graduate AIT. There’s NCOs who can’t pass weapons qual so they cheat the system and either have someone shoot for them or poke holes in the paper. I’ve had an LT get an entire convoy lost on purpose because he thought if he messed up bad enough, leadership wouldn’t ask him to do it again. I came out of AIT motivated and quickly realized, that in my unit we do everything but 12N tasks. If anything my unit of 12Ns act more like paperpushers and 88Ms. Our leadership would rather have us sit around instead of going out and operating equipment.

Response by LCpl Juan Rives made Aug 14 at 2017 10:08 AM

2017-08-14T10:08:08-04:00

I disagree with all of you.

Let's be real. A lot of those looking to get out now went in during the Obama Administration. They knew With him as commander in chief they may not go anywhere. With Trump in command and the right people running out military, a lot of the snowflakes that enlisted are looking for a way out.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2017 11:00 AM

2017-08-14T11:00:14-04:00

I agree, despite all the headaches I had to deal with when I was in, it was far better in the Army then in the civilian sector. I wish I had known what I do now and I would have surely elected to stay in.

Response by SPC John Wear made Aug 14 at 2017 12:33 PM

2017-08-14T12:33:53-04:00

I left because of opportunities. I was stationed at Ft. Irwin for 3.5 years. I wanted to go see and do more. My reenlistment option was same rank, duty station and MOS, despite being promotable and having completed my 14 months at my station. I left for more opportunity and found it.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2017 1:05 PM

2017-08-14T13:05:17-04:00

Sir,

I can only speak from a National Guard perspective, but the young soldiers I've seen leave after only their first contract is because they are moving on to other things in their life and realized the military is not for them any longer. Others who have left after quite some time can be because of the pressure of having to balance military requirements and civilian career/life.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2017 2:30 PM

2017-08-14T14:30:32-04:00

They reach their EAS, and decide to move on, maybe? OpTempo, PersTempo can add up and if they have dependents they are sometimes told to make a choice of stay in and become single or get out and remain married. I've seen it. Good SNCO's at the 10 year mark, whose wife told them reenlist and they're gone. Depending on their MOS they might be able to make double or triple the pay elsewhere. Maybe their knees and back aren't feeling twenty-something anymore. Maybe they are in a bad command and can't see the light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe their next assignment is going to be in the anus of the World, for the next three years. Maybe kids have moved around enough or kids are on the way and they don't want them to have to move every 3 years. Maybe just sick of all the changes from the way things were when they came in. Some or all of the above and more?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2017 8:44 PM

2017-08-14T20:44:21-04:00

Better taken care of? Onky job I've ever had that I was never sure if I was going to get paid on time or paid at all. The US Army is the biggest joke I've ever worked at, no one care about any junior enlisted.
-a pissed off specialist

Response by CPL James Hite made Aug 14 at 2017 9:52 PM

2017-08-14T21:52:32-04:00

I loved my years in the army. I did a tour in Korea and then served at Ft. Polk. I'm still friends with some of the people I met. That's been 30 years ago. I got out as an E4. At the time, I was pressured to reclassify outside of the aviation fields, for classifications I had no interest in, so I left.

Response by CPT Telford Simpson made Aug 14 at 2017 10:43 PM

2017-08-14T22:43:27-04:00

I think that many of them are witnessing the return of other service members, some that they have served with suffering from post pneumatic stress disorders and noticing the lack of help they're receiving from the people who sent them in harm's way.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Aug 15 at 2017 1:57 AM

2017-08-15T01:57:39-04:00

1) The former administration cut the force while not cutting the mission.
2) Not a real pay raise in several years
3) Tired of being a laboratory for social experimentation
4) Tired of politicians pandering to special interests while sacrificing readiness and modernization
AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST
5) Leadership that has lost sight of the REAL mission...To defend the country, to close with and destroy the enemy by use of fire and maneuver, and to kick ass and take names.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 15 at 2017 7:13 AM

2017-08-15T07:13:33-04:00

It's all the extra BS they aren't used to it. They get babies through basic and AIT. And when the get drilled in active duty the onset of butthurt sets in and they go all weak and

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 15 at 2017 8:05 AM

2017-08-15T08:05:31-04:00

I finished after my 6 years active contract was done. I left as an E-5 a month after I requested the paperwork to re-up another 6 years. I left because I felt like my hard work and dedication to being a good honest soldier was being taken advantage of. the slackers got away with being awol for formation or were allowed a lot more leniency than I was.

That being said, I would have never tried to leave on medical reasons, I was taught as a kid to always give 100% and leave people admiring your work. I think there is a generational issue in today's society where this generation expect fulfillment out of everything, and don't understand the concept of hard work. Most people in this latest generation don't understand the concept of losing, or working hard to win.

I now work in finance and joined when a thick skin was appreciated. This Turkish, old school bond trader said it best to me. He goes, 'I hate getting a new analyst to train now. When I started in this business we yelled at the analysts and they'd suck it up and get our coffee fast hoping to learn as much as they could from us and to get an opportunity on the desk. Now I yell at an analyst and these kids now cry and contact Human Resources, or They quit.'

Response by SFC James William Bolt [ 40 Yards ] made Aug 15 at 2017 12:57 PM

2017-08-15T12:57:54-04:00

To me a number of them reflect the environment they were raised in . Where they lives was lived in the path of least resistance . sign 40 yards

Response by Jessica Luebke made Aug 17 at 2017 6:56 PM

2017-08-17T18:56:02-04:00

I can't speak on behalf of all Army soldiers or their units; however, my husband attended basic training and almost immediately thereafter, deployed (OIF/OEF). Upon return, he was added to a local drill (Reservist) unit that was the most dysfunctional demonstration of the military I have ever seen. The members of that unit were causing more trouble than doing anything constructive and I don't think the leaders took any of it seriously. Just my observation of a single group that I realize is a tiny representation of the greater Army population - but if it represents anything similar to what most experience, I am not surprised they would exit in effort to find a foothold as civilian careerists instead. For what it's worth, my husband's feedback is that there was seldom a mission assigned or when there was, it was too simple, so the leader's were too comfortable, the unit fell unmotivated, and simply did not take their work or long term opportunity seriously.

Response by SSG Lloyd Becker BSBA-HCM, MBA made Aug 18 at 2017 2:06 AM

2017-08-18T02:06:12-04:00

MOS overload for promotion is another factor. My son left as a SPC (P). He has been on the list for 4 years. That in itself, is problematic. He used to be 13M then became 26U. Being an SPC (P) for that long is unacceptable.

While I agree with the others, this only adds into the story of why they are leaving so early.

Response by SGT Charles Ficklin made Aug 21 at 2017 7:57 AM

2017-08-21T07:57:09-04:00

I believe that one of the biggest reasons for this is that we are not being selective when it comes o enlistment. I have seen the Army open the gates for soldiers who have a very low GT score and who frequently refuse to accept the fact that they are expected to obey the orders given by superiors. The game in their mind is get a single enlistment out of the way and claim benefits. Even chapters for weight and APFT receive honorable discharges which makes education benefits available. Furthermore, I have seen so many soldiers claim disability for nothing. I have even had senior leadership try to convince me that I should have a sleep study done prior to my separation so I could get "free money" I found this pitch disgusting because I do not have any issues and will not make a false claim. The toxic experience's mentioned in other posts may have happened, but ask yourself why did it happen. Was it because the leadership failed or was it because the soldier in question never accepted the fact they are no longer on the block. I have also noticed that promotions are not based on ability or accomplishment, it is based on an APFT. This can be a discouragement to some because we place too much emphasis on the wrong things. APFT is an important part of military service but it should not be he measure of a soldier's worth. I would rather have a soldier who is weaker in PT but dedicated to his job and does what is required to accomplish the task at hand than an entire squad of strong PT soldiers who have no respect for themselves, no obligation to perform the mission and seek only to take care of themselves.

Response by SSG Stephan Pendarvis made Aug 25 at 2017 4:01 PM

2017-08-25T16:01:38-04:00

Lack of motivation and will. Wanting instant gratification instead of staying the course and developing character. Remember....most of these youngsters are from the "Everyone gets a trophy" Generation.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2017 4:22 PM

2017-08-25T16:22:42-04:00

in the military as well as civilillian life I have found that there are many individuals who would rather collect something for nothing, and have no regrets for it

Response by SPC(P) Mike Conley Jr. made Aug 25 at 2017 4:27 PM

2017-08-25T16:27:39-04:00

I get out next year. I don't like dealing with stupidity. I don't like the embrace the suck attitude when there's a better solution. Sometimes , yeah, you have to drive on but if there is a better way for the team as a whole that needs to come over suck it up and deal with it. I don't like not having a voice as junior enlisted. I don't like that junior enlisted aren't valued. There's been times my ideas have been blown off then somebody that out ranks me says the same thing I said 20 minutes before hand. I've made a list of reasons to stay in and a list to get out. My get out list is probably 4-5 times as long as my reasons to stay in. The only way I will stay in is if I'm given my E5. I can be an E5 in an E4 slot. I can hold that E5 for a year before BLC. The only reason I want to stay in is to take care of others. Maybe with that NCO title maybe I can make a positive difference in my organization.

Response by CPT John Sheridan made Aug 26 at 2017 5:37 PM

2017-08-26T17:37:13-04:00

Not to take away from the premise, but it's a numbers game. It's up or out. There's not a SSG position for every junior enlisted soldier, nor is there a field grade position for every company grade officer. One must move up or out. There is no normal career path for one to serve 20 years as a SP4 or 1LT.

While the military is an easy place to find discontent, that's not the reason that many leave. Some enlist/take a commission with a destination beyond the military. GI Bill, skill training, relief of debt from professional education, in exchange for benefits received. Some join with the idea that they will serve their nation, not necessarily a career. One term and out was always their intent. Many simply mature and find that they want something different or don't fit the culture well enough to go further.

Response by PO3 B Al Eisen made Aug 27 at 2017 6:54 PM

2017-08-27T18:54:53-04:00

I can only assume that the reasons are similar to those that chase men out of the Navy. I happily medicalled out when I received very poor medical treatment. I would not have stayed anyway past my 1st enlistment because of a few reasons.
1. There wasn't enough for me to do. I was a tech, not a janitor. When I ran out of repair work I was told to either slow down, take more breaks, or, field day the hallways.
2. Losers got paid the same as I did but did much less work. It was common for losers to be let go hour early because we got much more done without their presence. But, they were going to be advanced anyway because the government cared more about stats than reality.
3. Females got away with just about everything. They never got called on disappearing instead of doing their work, not knowing how to do their work, nor, ignoring orders. The comment, "I'll just blow the chief and we will see who gets in trouble" was way too common. The special favors that they got really pissed off most males. We knew why they got them. See above.
4. The pay was insulting. Very insulting. I was E4 over 2, and was less than $50/year too much to get public assistance. We had no GI Bill either. That 3 for 1 college deal was no deal at all. None of us could afford it.
5. My chief told me that the Navy was changing and it wasn't for the better.
We both left about the same time. Neither of us really wanted to, but, the navy that I found myself in wasn't the Navy that I had joined.
I'm sorry that this isn't more positive, but, using the Navy for social experiments really rubbed me the wrong way.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Aug 29 at 2017 10:10 PM

2017-08-29T22:10:08-04:00

What numbers are you looking at to make this assessment? Have you looked year on year to see if there is a trend? There are always a group of soldiers waiting for their off ramp. Kids who eat their way to freedom etc. specialist is the most populated rank in the Army. It also marks the end of an enlistment. It is a naturally breakpoint between committing to the next step or bailing out.

At the time you initially posted this, the Army had just rolled out reenlisting the very best, vice making reenlisment missions.

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made Aug 30 at 2017 12:27 PM

2017-08-30T12:27:54-04:00

I do not have the statistics to compare from various eras. That is the first important step. I was in during and after Viet Nam. A lot of officers and NCO's were riffed which created a huge morale issue. That was on top of everyone contemplating how futile our time in Viet Nam turned out to be. New officers informed us we lost the war because we did not how to fight. These same officers failed their ARTEPs, however. When Article 15 contests proliferated and our young people were being hurt unnecessarily there was little incentive to reenlist. Without getting into racial overtones, a major concern was the fact that only 5% of white nco's were reenlisting. I was only the young grunt NCO - I had no insight as to the nature of the DA observations.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 31 at 2017 12:23 PM

2017-08-31T12:23:28-04:00

Sir, I honestly believe the lifestyle is not for everyone. I had a soldier in an infantry unit years back who was a really hardworking Christian guy. I remember one day he was speaking with me about being surrounded by the party / drinking / casual dating / general irresponsibility among certain lower-enlisted people and saying "I want to be so different." That really stuck out to me.

Also, try to look at it from the perspective of soldiers who are getting out after a few years in their MOS. They have some job experience, a military background, and a free education. Those all sound like wins to me.

To summarize, I think we need to:
1) Deglamorize irresponsible behaviors
2) Treat everyone with dignity and respect
3) Carefully counsel our soldiers on what is expected of them as part of our team, and furiously chapter out those who repeatedly demonstrate that they cannot meet our standards. Some of these people that we keep around out of the inconvenience of doing paperwork are driving good soldiers out.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2017 9:22 AM

2017-09-02T09:22:21-04:00

When the economy is strong there is a false premise of security and opportunity. So many younger less experienced citizens or soldiers see others "succeeding" and feel as if they are losing out. They make a decision and enter the private sector. I personally think one should transition with the National Gaurd of Reserves as you can pursue multiple careers and develop into a more rounded leader.

Now my military career started in the Air Force, which is very different culture then Active Army or Marines.

I would also mention that nearly every decade including in 2014/15 the military downsizes abruptly. It's the post war draw down. So sometimes, soldiers leave on their own and sometimes they are pushed out.

Response by LTC John Wilson made Sep 2 at 2017 1:49 PM

2017-09-02T13:49:55-04:00

We must try in every instance to recruit the finest young men and women to serve in our armed forces. then, we must give them the necessary training to not only do their mos. proficiently, but to enjoy the Army life they chose.
Serving in the Army is more disciplined than serving in civilian life. You can't quit and go home when you want and you can only slack for so long before you are called to account for your actions. Early intervention will save a lot of soldiers and enable them to realize they are special to this country and are appreciated by their superiors.
Give praise when praise is due, show opportunities when they arrive, and share all the knowledge you have with your subordinates to show your confidence in their future.
Stay positive and don't just talk to the soldier about reenlistment when he or he is short, explain the good things that could happen and the benefits that his or her civilian peers don't get. Allow them to grow with strong support from you and others in the command. "Army, we're Family." God bless America, our troops in harms way, and give all the aid we can give to the neighbors in Texas. We are united!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2017 2:19 PM

2017-09-04T14:19:36-04:00

I think the "new" morality has something to do with it also. Back in the 70s if you had a known gay in uniform he was quickly shown the door forcibly if need be. He was peered out.
Now, times have changed but some people haven't come to accept it and I think this is a reason for some to leave. A lot has happened during the last administration to further dampen enthusiasm towards remaining in the military.
I was in 22 years from '74 to '96. I don't know if I could handle it today or not. We had some racial incidents but nothing that couldn't be worked out.
I'm not even going to get started on the whole transgender thing. Maybe I'm an old dinosaur; I don't know.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Sep 4 at 2017 5:32 PM

2017-09-04T17:32:14-04:00

Historically, only about 20% of personnel stay in for a career. This isn't new or anomalous. It's normal.

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Sep 4 at 2017 10:10 PM

2017-09-04T22:10:27-04:00

Because the Army didn't coddle them and give them a Participation Award for getting dressed properly?

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2017 3:09 PM

2017-09-06T15:09:04-04:00

The Army use to be a means of providing for your family, obtaining an education, and traveling during the early 80's - 2000's but recently there are more conflicts with Iraq, Afghanistan, and now possibly N. Korea that the younger generation doesn't have the mental fortitude or willingness to be apart of those conflicts; along with GI Bill not really being the money it use to be for soldiers the Army outside of the bonus (which is given only to infantry, medics and intelligence mostly) isn't an attractive market for them.

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2017 3:02 PM

2017-09-08T15:02:17-04:00

I am 31 years Air Force but my son has recently joined the Army. He is already talking about not reenlisting, or if fortunate enough; leave before. The reason...not doing the job he was trained to do. While he understands the importance of doing what's required, he also understands diminishing skills...if you don't use it you lose it. He is a 15R and left AIT in May 2017 and has yet to put his has on the craft he was trained to fix. He only sees it siting on the flight line and wishes he was doing his job and getting proficient at it. He has been in the tool room and sometimes motor pool. Why would the Army invest so much and do so little to retain and maintain soldiers skills, commitment and enthusiasm? This could very much be a contributing factor to their inability to retain..

Response by MSgt John McGowan made Jan 5 at 2018 5:55 AM

2018-01-05T05:55:37-05:00

My question would be does deployments have anything to do with it. what it been approx. 14 years and several thousand have more than 1 or 2 tours. Leaders not doing their jobs but I understand that manageing your career is a lot of work. They want ollege degress, this and that and everything else. Just when is there time for OJT and shop chiefs to become experts in their field. You have to have experts in all fields to cover the bases. But what price does the expert pay in promotions and getting ahead.

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made Mar 10 at 2018 11:29 AM

2018-03-10T11:29:41-05:00

If you study the history of the Army you will find that retention has always been a issue. Prior the end of the draft in 1973 the Army "needed" the draft to maintain its numbers. While the draft did bring in a cross section of the country as a whole it also brought in a lot of troops who didn't really want to be there.
After the end of the draft the Army hit a low point from about 1973 to 1982 with an all volunteer force but no significant improvements in pay and benefits. The result was that the Army was recruiting a lot of soldiers in Mental Category 4 (below average intelligence), high school dropouts and, frankly, criminals. In the early 1980s the Army wised up and started paying soldiers more, improving living conditions, offering enlistment and re-enlistment bonuses and having higher standards for recruitment.
When I hear people who have come into the Army in the last 30 years complain about the quality of today's soldiers, I laugh to myself because they don't know how far the Army has come.
Back to your point -
Yes, the military has much to offer young people today. (Quite frankly, more than anywhere else.) The problem with young soldiers is that don't know how good they have it. They don't appreciate the fact they are probably making twice what a 20 year old high school graduate makes even if they are "only" a specialist. Another problem is that millennials are, basically, a bunch of spoiled brats who expect everything to be given to them. They see the downsides of military service but don't see the advantages.
The best thing to do is to point out how much life sucks as a civilian. No job security, low pay and uncertainty for the future. The military is not for everyone but for others leaving the military is the biggest mistake they will ever make.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Mar 10 at 2018 5:27 PM

2018-03-10T17:27:58-05:00

You live in a up or out state- add constant deployments, getting paid to set on your ass in the civie world. It has always been this way- E1-E4- come in work hard, realize that they don't want to lead or can't- their friends aren't worrying about bullets, bombs, getting shot in the back- so "Hey I did my service, lived up to my end of the bargain- now it's time to get out find be a Postman at $13/hr of work for 2-3 yrs and be a Master Plumber making $22/hr. As for the other part- there has always been what we called ROADs- Retired On Active Duty- I'm a short timer, what the hell, do the minimum, no one at home care what kind of discharge I'll get, I can go on welfare in the hood., etc.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2018 10:16 AM

2018-04-07T10:16:48-04:00

I’d say certain branches and units see different challenges here. When you see retention issues in the command and staff it’s a culture issue.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2018 8:46 PM

2018-05-26T20:46:33-04:00

Because the Army is dumb. I don't feel fulfilled. I find it ridiculous that it's more important to be promoted to sergeant than be competent in my job (which I rarely do, btw the Air Force equivalent would have prepared me to be a junior instructor at my pay grade). It's ok to continue on with field problems despite equipment shortages or deaths that occur in those excercises. It's more important to have numbers than people taking college classes. Prevent non-deployable soldiers from receiving tuition assistance while complaining not enough soldiers take classes. Not ensuring people get paid their benefits on time, but yet make soldiers struggle to survive on their own and some how not aquire a red flag for their clearance. Allowing dirt bags to get what they want, but if the hard working soldiers slack off they get sacked and/or get punished. I didn't do the most pleasant civilian jobs, a couple which were more stressful than the army. However, I never had to put up with as much idiotic bs, criminality, or incompetence than when I became a soldier. The only reason I am going to re-up is so I can prove to ICE I can provide for my wife. Can't wait to move on to better things.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 10 at 2018 2:34 PM

2018-08-10T14:34:27-04:00

A moderating variable is how they are treated.

Response by SPC Nicholas Seay made Mar 24 at 2019 11:21 AM

2019-03-24T11:21:28-04:00

They're finding that the civilian sector pays better and that there’s more opertunities for advancement without the hassle.

Response by SPC Greg Barnett made Mar 24 at 2019 11:22 AM

2019-03-24T11:22:19-04:00

I was in a toxic unit with toxic leadership. That ended in a congressional investigation and the 1st sgt was forced to retire and the CPT was demoted and sent somewhere else. I left with a bad taste for the army. My sgt major was in 26 years and was on his first deployment with me and I was in less then 2 years when I deployed. He brought his drill sgt crap to Iraq.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2019 11:34 AM

2019-03-24T11:34:47-04:00

Well sir. We're tired of being treated like the shit beneath your fucking boots.

Response by Cpl Ed Hines made Mar 24 at 2019 11:46 AM

2019-03-24T11:46:39-04:00

Have you tried treating them like crap?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2019 11:54 AM

2019-03-24T11:54:13-04:00

Better question, if not already asked, what was the command climate like? Toxic leaders lwad to toxic environment.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2019 12:33 PM

2019-03-24T12:33:14-04:00

Honestly sir theres so many reasons why lower enlisted are getting out and just not caring if they get discharged. I could probably go on for an hour as to why I'm getting out, and why I am not even considering reenlisting. But to just highlight a few of them: I was knocked unconscious on a jump once, and still had chute shakeout afterwards instead of letting me get checked out, I injured my shoulder almost a year ago and it took me 2 months to finally get an appointment, after I got checked out the only thing the physical therapist chose to do was dry needling (which hasn't helped), I've asked for an MRI and I continuously get told no, I had to have my wife take an uber to the hospital for her back surgery on 2 separate occasions because my command refused to let me go (I literally sat in the cof doing nothing because nothing was even going on), if your not one of "the boys" that go out drinking with the NCO's and play xbox with them you will never be promoted in my unit even though the people getting promoted before you fail the job certification tests we take over and over, and a lot of NCO's talk to the people they outrank any kind of way they want just because they can. And in the civilian world I wont have those issues.

Response by SSG Darrell Peters made Mar 24 at 2019 12:36 PM

2019-03-24T12:36:09-04:00

I will say this if I had the Leadership when I Retired from the Army when I went in. I doubt seriously if I would have retired. Toward the end of my career I saw to many GFI's come down from higher Commands only to fall flat. Are the plans instituted in todays army, instituted for the Institution of the Army or the betterment of Soldiers? One would hope both but as time has gone by i seen where good soldiers simply get screwed over.

Response by SSG Mark Matteson made Mar 24 at 2019 12:40 PM

2019-03-24T12:40:15-04:00

Seriously Toxic Leadership can destroy the morale of most

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2019 12:42 PM

2019-03-24T12:42:50-04:00

The problem is, in my vast experience in the military, is that those who are in the "know", the "group" will get complete attention in all matters, yet those in deficiencies are not afforded true help. They are look at negatively, communicated negatively, and treated negatively. As NCO and Officers it is our duty to help, in a positive way, to reeducate these soldiers, correct their deficiencies, and look at beyond what can be done to fix the situation. No one can state that the above is a problem in the military. BUT the onus is also on the soldier to self correct also through he positive avenues given by staff. We are scrapping the bottom of the barrel. A new generation. But, nontheless, we can positively mold the individual into a fighting member. In the case of the APFT you will have those that are against. You will have problems with the course not because of the course itself. But taxing this new generation and beyond to be the best fit for the military. Dont give up on those who fail, but dont single them out within the staff. Positive forward momentum is the key.

Response by SPC Randy Rosenberger made Mar 24 at 2019 2:09 PM

2019-03-24T14:09:28-04:00

Crappy duty assignments, barracks that were very sub-par (work orders on them over 4 years old), and too much toxic leadership did it for me. I knew it wasn't going to be easy by any means but living in shit barracks and being treated like a child by bullies with stripes quickly got me looking forward to my ETS. It was a shame, really. I was a good soldier, received 4 AAMs and numerous certificates of achievement during my 4 years ('89-'93) and I always looked professional and was motivated. It was the Vietnam era NCOs who had been E5s and E6s for 15 years who ran me out, so to speak. The Army took measures after I got out, I'm told, with the BOSS (Better Opportunities for Single Soldiers) and QMP (Qualitative Management Program) to try and get rid of dead weight in the ranks and try to retain good, single soldiers but even though it was too late to keep me in, I sure hope it kept others in that should have stayed in.

Response by SPC Jeffrey Stone made Mar 24 at 2019 2:18 PM

2019-03-24T14:18:31-04:00

Low pay and PC bullshit. Is my bet. What do I know? I got the hell out in 92.

Response by SGT Ken R made Mar 24 at 2019 2:18 PM

2019-03-24T14:18:57-04:00

Many young soldiers are beginning to see that their time is valuable and they are tired of wasting it on meaningless tasks. I think of the years I spent picking grass out of cracks, picking up cigarette butts, cleaning areas that were already spotless, and other "make work" details. The pointnif working hard is not to find more hard work to do. The point is to be productive and successful. I am 50 years old now and I will be damned if someone is going to waste a minute of my time. Last few years in the army I had about 20 hours of honest work to do every week. 1st Sgt made sure we stretched it out to at least 60 hours just so we would "look busy". If a soldier has completed his tasks for the day, let him go home.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2019 4:18 PM

2019-03-24T16:18:26-04:00

I know that this a question that was asked 4 years ago but it deserves an answer that is still relevant today. In my opinion I would have to say that a majority (some soldiers are past redemption sadly) have these feelings of urgency to become a civilian again because they had leaders at the lowest level that failed them in the beginning. It only takes 1 toxic leader or organization that allows this toxicity to negatively impact many young enlisted soldiers to think they were wrong about wanting the Army life.

Response by Sgt William Margeson made Mar 24 at 2019 4:57 PM

2019-03-24T16:57:43-04:00

My personal opinion, is that today young people are not taught what their responsibilities are to society. They are being indoctrinated they have all the rights, but no responsibility, to their country. When they enter military service, they expect to diddy bop and do what they want.Discipline and a structured environment are contrary to everything they were indoctinated to believe.

Response by MSG Chris Clanton made Mar 24 at 2019 8:15 PM

2019-03-24T20:15:52-04:00

Lack of leadership. Treat them with respect. Train the hell out of them. You are not and cannot do your job if they cannot do theirs. My troops were too damned valuable to make police call, cutting grass and painting rocks and other assorted bullshit things. We spent 3-4 days a week in the field honing and/or learing infantry skills. Treat them like men. If there were no private’s and Sp4’s there would be no need for SGT’s

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2019 12:40 AM

2019-03-25T00:40:14-04:00

I’m currently serving active duty in the Marine Corps. I feel I have a slightly different perspective on this than the average E-3. I enlisted at 26 and am currently 28. I worked in a variety of different fields, went to college, went through my “midlife crisis” and lost my identity, found it, watched some businesses I had a hand in starting succeed and saw some fail. While I’m not asking for special treatment because of those things, I believe that these experiences do separate me from the average 18 year old lance corporal. Rather than being given additional responsibility and trust, despite showing understanding and proficiency in my field, I was given very meaniale tasks. I witnessed leadership to be more of a “good ole’ boys club” and those same individuals were the ones actually getting to do their jobs. Leadership should be grooming their junior enlisted to replace them rather than treating them as a burden. I understand not extending this opportunity to those that do not want it, but as someone that wanted the responsibility and trust of my seniors, I wish I would have been afforded it.

Leadership too often seemed more interested in physical appearance and physical performance than job proficiency as well. I understand that I signed up for the Marine Corps and all the standards that come with it. However, as someone that joined considerably later than his peers, did not take care of his body prior to joining, has developed actual knee injuries, and has a medical condition making it difficult for him to maintain height and weight standards, I have seen other lance corporals receive favoritism because they run a high 1st class PFT/CFT and look good in uniform. I’ve also been refused opportunities to serve in ways that I wanted simply because I was on a limited duty status. Base orders explicitly stated that the Marine does not have to be full duty, more specifically that LIMDU status is not a disqualifier, to serve in the roles I wanted. However, I was repeatedly denied these opportunities despite multiple requests to take advantage of them. I’ve been notified of and wittnessed leadership shit talk me and my performance as a Marine simply because of my physical appearance or perceived lack of dedication. This leadership had no daily contact or relationship with me and simply saw me pass by in the hall ways. This leadership took hearsay as fact and rather than take on the role of leader and mentor chose to encourage their junior Marines to stay away from me rather than offer direction or correction in a professional or personal setting. Identifying a problem and ignoring it was never taught to me in boot camp or taught as a leadership trait or principle.

I’ve witnessed hypocrisy and abuse of power within higher enlisted ranks. Prior to joining I’d always heard that the black defended junior enlisted from officers. I’ve experienced the opposite. I’ve had staff NCOs tell me personally that they were going to medical because they didn’t want to go back to work. I’ve seen staff NCOs take a day off work because they weren’t feeling well and not produce an SIQ chit. When I’ve notified my chain of command that I was sick they expected me to report to them, go to medical, and continue working the day out just because medical didn’t have the staff available that day to evaluate me and get me a chit. I’ve never been a poor worker and have always gone above and beyond with whatever I can. I’ve created briefs with dozens of slides that timed to close to an hour of content to ensure all the material requested was provided. I’ve worked past COB without being asked. I’m still held to the “lance corporal standard” and not the Marine Corps standard. I’ve wittnessed leadership jump chain of command in order to assert control over me simply because they did not like me while expecting their junior Marines to never jump chain of command with something as simple as a question if other Corporal’s were busy.

I’m already facing the possibility of a medical board. I may be out in as little as a year, 2 years short of my 5 year contact. Even if I’m not medically separated I still do not intend to re-enlist because I do not have faith in the opportunities I have inside the Corps to hone my skills, grow professionally, and prepare myself for a post-retirement career. I have faith that leadership will continue to put unnecessary road blocks and red tape in front of me that will hinder my growth and development. I’m not under any delusion that the civilian sector is the paradise some think it to be. See above, I already lived in it. I know there will still be hypocrisy and assholes there to try and use you as a stepping stone rather than helping you develop, but at least I won’t have to kiss their ass while they’re doing it. At least I won’t have a 19 year old kid climbing up my ass over a disagreement on interpretation of a uniform order. At least if I’m not spoken to professionally and as an adult I can tell the person where they can shove it and keep proving myself through my work ethic. I have considered enlisting to help groom the future of the Corps. I love the Marine Corps and do not want to see it go down hill. However, I’m not so arrogant to think that I could be the savior of the Marines or that it even needs one. The Marine Corps was there before me and will live on after. Other more physically able Marines are ready and willing to continue to serve their country in uniform. I choose to serve my nation in the federal or private sector upon seperation and completion of my degree. I am extremely grateful for what the Marine Corps has taught me and will continue to teach me. It has made me a better man and citizen. It truly is an excellent organization. There are a lot of benefits available within it. The problem is there are just as many, albeit different ones, in the civilian side. Those benefits are more enticing to many people than the struggles they experience in the military organization.

Response by CMSgt Peter McDermott made Mar 25 at 2019 1:24 AM

2019-03-25T01:24:36-04:00

In my 32years if service I am glad to say I never even came close to failing a PT test. Did I worry about it “Sure”, but this was because I wanted to do good. Mandatory PT should be brought back to all the services and every career field in these services. We are not making a physically stronger force by allowing our military personnel the freedom to do it on their own.

Response by CMSgt Peter McDermott made Mar 25 at 2019 2:10 AM

2019-03-25T02:10:30-04:00

Find a way to lead. Find a way to motivate them back into taking care of themselves build their confidence by PTing with them. Bringing back mandatory PT would work for everyone but goes against the political correctness of today’s military services. Leaders themselves are falling into this so why wouldn’t our younger troops? I believe in making the service more attractive to our up and coming recruits, but to much freedom of choice once in such as leaving their physical fitness totally up to them does not work for most. Leadership, Tact, Honor, Integrity and pride are not present in many of our new recruits, it has to be taught, learned, encouraged, and come back to step one. Lead By Example!!

Response by SPC Rob Lewis made Mar 25 at 2019 7:02 AM

2019-03-25T07:02:19-04:00

Short answer : toxic leadership. My second unit was golden. My first was a total shit show, and that stuck with me.

Response by SFC Francisco Rosario made Mar 25 at 2019 4:43 PM

2019-03-25T16:43:10-04:00

I remember reading an article which stated that a very high percentage of the younger population of the our great country is not fit for military service. That means physically, mentally, and emotionally, this could be a generational problem.

Response by MSG Mamerto Perez made Apr 10 at 2019 7:13 AM

2019-04-10T07:13:47-04:00

It has always been that way in the military. It donesn't matter on the age or rank.

Response by SGM Thomas Terebesi Sr made Apr 18 at 2019 12:36 PM

2019-04-18T12:36:29-04:00

No matter what you do in life you will have leadership to deal with. Military or civilian life, both have good and bad leadership to deal with. My recomendation is to be the best you can be at your MOS. You will find the leadership will lean on you more to achieve the units mission, not menial tasks. Stay with it. Reenlist. You will be glad you did. It was the best 36 years of my life.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2019 11:45 PM

2019-04-23T23:45:46-04:00

I think one key element is simply that the economy is stronger, the military has historically had retention issues during strong economies.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2019 10:28 AM

2019-04-26T10:28:29-04:00

There are a lot of benefits, and I would never deny that. What I also won't deny though, is that morale is at an all-time low. On the combat MOS side of things, we're bored. There is no real war going on, so what's happening is we struggle to see the point in what we're doing. Why do junior soldiers have a hard time seeing a purpose in their training? The leaders above them aren't giving them one. We know the definition of a leader is one that provides purpose, direction, and motivation to his/her subordinates, so when and why did that stop happening? The common response we get nowadays is "do it because I said so," and these same senior ranking members are also the ones tell them "do as I say, not as I do." This isn't the army for which we signed up. I had a phenomenal leadership group when I got to my first unit, but one thing that stuck with me forever was when my squad leader told me that I would learn a lot more from the bad leaders than I do the good ones. Nothing has ever proven more true. Unfortunately the NCO corps just isn't what it used to be, and it's only getting worse. We have a severe lack of discipline across the board. No one is having fun anymore. You join with a vision, and it seems like we don't have one anymore. It's rotation after rotation with no end in sight, and all we hear about is a war that isn't coming. Yes, we need to always be prepared, and I will never deny that. I do my best to give my soldiers some perspective because you never know when something is going to pop off, but if I hear "do it because I said so" one more time as if I don't deserve any respect as an NCO and a man, I'm probably going to be the next one out the door. I deserve a better quality of leader, and my soldiers deserve the same. It's my responsibility to be that leader, as emphasized in the Creed of the Non-Commissioned Officer.

Response by SGT Joseph Alanzo made May 2 at 2019 3:06 AM

2019-05-02T03:06:16-04:00

it maybe there is someone in the whit house don't care of the u.s.constitution and most of all the g.i.s and we the veterans and ret.military

Response by SFC Craig Vaughn made May 3 at 2019 6:28 AM

2019-05-03T06:28:15-04:00

Soldiers are leaving the Army because there is no incentive to stay. Under the new retirement system there is no benefit to staying in for 20 years but many benefits to leaving. Once a soldier receives his/her training and receives some experience in their field they are highly employable in the civilian world. Civilian pay is much better than the pay in the Army, Civilian jobs have little to no risk to life and limb and you can take your 401k from the Army with you so you lose nothing if you go.
Retired benefits have been eroded so much that the only real benefit left is the retirement pay, receiving it as soon as you retire is a big plus....that has been removed. Why else would they stay? In the civilian world your retirement pay increases at a much higher rate than if you stayed in the Army. You can move jobs if you don't like your job or supervisor. You can buy a house and stay in one location for the rest of your life if you want. Military retirees are no longer seen at Military treatment facilities (local commanders determine the policy) because there are not enough resources for them to be seen. We must have private insurance to pay for everything Tricare/CHAMPUS/FEDBEN won't pay for. The free health care for life is now a lie, it costs us a lot for health insurance.
So the problem comes down to this....THERE IS NO LONGER ANY REASON TO STAY IN and many reasons to leave.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2019 9:45 PM

2019-05-03T21:45:02-04:00

Theres a bunch of reasons for this. If I had a dollar for every private that said they were supposed to be another MOS than the one their in. Another reason is units. I've seen units drive their Soldiers into the ground with training event after events where they barely have personal time and mess up marriages and relationships. Other reasons are that Soldiers tried it out, didnt like it and are moving on with lives.

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made May 13 at 2019 5:44 AM

2019-05-13T05:44:36-04:00

Get their GI bill and go back to school

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2019 4:34 AM

2019-07-22T04:34:23-04:00

Because they got stationed at Polk lol...

All joking aside sir

1. some people weren't meant for it, just because you meet the standard doesn't mean you belong there

2. Some people experience something pivotal that makes reenlistment unpalatable; seeing a friend die, SHARP, toxic leadership, and personal failures

3. Some people are Shitbags, sometimes it's that simple and if it is the ARMY loses nothing from them leaving

4. Not deploying, yeah a Wierd one I know, so I've never been deployed anywhere other than the southern border and that's a "deployment", Soldiers want to do Soldier shit, we may complain about it in the moment but focus and clarity come from performing your task and performing it well for that moment you are the chosen one and if not you then who, somewhere there's an infantryman who's never fought anyone, a Combat Medic who's never saved a life, and a Fister who's never marked a real target, it's rough you don't feel like you matter if you don't ever do what you were trained to do, imagine spending your whole career at a MEPS and never working with Artillery

5. They're convinced their unit doesn't care about them

6. They feel like they've been given a raw deal in someway, I got sent to Polk, and it took me a few months to stop feeling sorry for myself, some people never get over it, think the whole army is like Fort Polk

7. Can't get the reenlistment deal they wanted

8. Never liked their MOS or something

That's my observation sir, I am but a humble 68W, #4 is one I struggle with although I will be reenlisting the ARMY for as much as it frustrates me is the place for me

Response by CPL Sarah Stilwell made Apr 8 at 2020 1:05 PM

2020-04-08T13:05:04-04:00

Its because they will make more money from the post 9/11 gibill having fun at college and progress in their careers more than if they chose to remain in the military. My brother got out after 7 years as a specialist because his command wasn't promoting anyone. He said to heck with this and got out and collected on his post 9/11 gibill plus his housing allowance plus his pell grant plus his VA check plus various other scholarship checks from our home state (Florida Bright futures scholarship he earned in high school = $10k/ year on its own). He was pulling it about $90k a year in cash benefits while going to college. He had VA for 5 years after getting out to cover all his medical. He bought a house with the 300k leftover scholarship money after he graduated and became an accountant for our city government making 85k a year not to mention having a mortgage free home and VA checks on the side. Why would he have stayed in the Army as an E4 forever making less than 30k and being treated so terribly? It didn't make sense to him just like it didn't make sense to any other junior enlisted who has been repeatedly passed over for promotion and realize staying in the military is more of a loss than an investment and know there is a better life waiting for them. The benefits the military provides them are simply a fraction of what they know they will receive once they choose to leave. When a service member leaves, this is typically a plan that is years in the making. I stayed in the Army for two years and got my GiBill. I look at my brother's situation knowing that if I had stayed, I would have been stuck in the same 'dead end rank' for as long as he was. I'm glad we both jumped ship. If the Army was interested in making us career soldiers (which they clearly weren't) I probably would have stayed. But when I was out and my little brother saw how great my life was and the benefits I had cashed in on, he looked at the $5 reenlistment bonus and it didn't take much convincing for him to follow me out (just like he had followed me in) so I would figure than when the Army fails to retain a soldier, they also are failing to retain their siblings. The Army didn't loose one soldier when I left, in the end they lost two. So If your trying to retain soldiers, consider the phenomenon that when the oldest sibling jumps ship, the younger siblings aren't far behind. Siblings nearly always stay together. If you convince the oldest to stay, more than likely the younger siblings will stay too. The Army doesn't seem to pick up on this much.

Response by CPL Sarah Stilwell made Apr 8 at 2020 1:44 PM

2020-04-08T13:44:45-04:00

One word: Siblings. They join together and they serve together and they leave together. if one is treated badly and leaves, the others will leave out of resentment for the army having treated that sibling poorly. My brother was happy to follow me in and he was happy to follow me out. If you manage to retain the oldest sibling, then you will be more successful retaining the others. Fail to retain the oldest and you risk loosing all of them

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2020 6:36 AM

2020-08-03T06:36:30-04:00

It is definitely a Leadership issue...Young soldiers come in and don't know dogshit about the military, and their first experience is a leader who either

A. Had bad leadership to be passionate about their job or the army so they pass it down to their subordinates

Or

B.Just toxic leaders who just don't 1