Why are Soldiers dodging the flag at 1700?

2015-05-15T10:45:51-04:00

Every afternoon at 1700, Retreat sounds followed by To The Colors prompting us to stand at attention then salute the flag once To The Colors sounds. I'm sure it's not just me, but I've been noticing more and more Soldiers dodging this, I.e. Running indoors or jumping in a vehicle, then taking off directly after it's over. Of course, I address it afterwards with either the Soldier or their superior, but as of lately it's becoming more and more common within our ranks, from subordinates to even senior personnel. This is unacceptable, however I cannot obviously fix the issue across the Army team. Thoughts?

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made May 15 at 2015 10:51 AM

2015-05-15T10:51:38-04:00

May be unacceptable but it is a time honored tradition.
Nothing new here .. first time I say it was 1st week in BCT in '67
Last time I saw it was day before ETS in '70

Shun and Shame .. they are obviously not the troopers to emulate!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2015 10:53 AM

2015-05-15T10:53:07-04:00

I always considered it an honor to salute the colors at retreat. It also meant that I happened to be having a (rare) day where I was outside the office at 1700. A small price to pay for a shorter than normal day.

Running and hiding is the sort of bullshit that would earn a sharp rebuke from me, a phone call to the Garrison CSM, and a month on the post flag detail for the offending Soldier.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2015 10:52 AM

2015-05-15T10:52:49-04:00

To some extent I think it is a game. Always fun to get out of something.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2015 10:56 AM

2015-05-15T10:56:24-04:00

I believe we need to educate Soldiers about the importance of the bugle calls. There are more bugle calls than just reville, retreat, and taps. If Soldiers can be taught the history of why we have the bugle calls then more would appreciate and render honors.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2015 11:11 AM

2015-05-15T11:11:18-04:00

This behavior is appalling to me. There should be no greater honor than to salute the flag under which you serve, at any chance you get.

It's already been said though, unfortunately this is nothing new. Teaching SMs about the why of rendering this simple courtesy is a start to fixing the problem. Getting leadership to stop dodging it would be another logical step.

When I see other SMs dodging the flag, I ensure to find them at the next possible moment and give them a piece of my mind on their lack of respect. And if it's in the purview of my duties, I will make sure they stand and render the honors until their stupid little arm is shaking. While on the trail I tried to instill the customs and courtesies to my trainees, and maybe a small dose of the fear of God if they should ever be caught dodging the flag.

Response by CH (MAJ) William Beaver made May 15 at 2015 11:11 AM

2015-05-15T11:11:38-04:00

Two words: ZERO CLASS

Response by SSG Alleria Stanley made May 15 at 2015 11:12 AM

2015-05-15T11:12:00-04:00

I've always liked the tradition of Reveille and To the Colors. At the post I'm at now, we don't do it (the official response I received when I inquired as to why not was that we were trying to not disturb the neighbors), and I miss it.
It was a moment of pause in an otherwise busy hectic day. For those 30 seconds or so, everything and everyone stopped. It gave me a chance to reflect, relax, contemplate the Colors, etc.
Those few moments of peace before the world started up again (whether PT in the morning, or rush hour hecticness in the evening).

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2015 11:13 AM

2015-05-15T11:13:08-04:00

This is a time honored military tradition that no doubt dates back to the late 1700. It is called human nature, the law of following the path of lease resistance, whatever you want to call it but it is nothing more. I would not lose too much sleep over it we have a lot bigger issues in our country to worry about.

Response by SMSgt David Zobel made May 15 at 2015 11:14 AM

2015-05-15T11:14:45-04:00

I first did it myself in 1972. It has, apparently, remained a common malpractice in the intervening years. By 1990, as a senior NCO, I was thoroughly enjoying shouting, "Airman!! Stand fast!" at young men or women beginning a sprint to cover at the start of the flag retreat.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2015 11:15 AM

2015-05-15T11:15:15-04:00

I believe Leaders do not inform them of the proper portocal and that they see a lot of them doing the same thing so they believe it is ok.

Response by SFC Joseph James made May 15 at 2015 12:00 PM

2015-05-15T12:00:12-04:00

Hear me out on this. Why should people care if we don't give them a reason to. I don't mean counseling or "smoking" them until they care either. Our traditions come from our history. Why do we conduct "Stand To" at dusk and dawn. There is history and a reason. For many sm they just dint know why and thus don't care enough to WANT to be apart of our history by living the traditions.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2015 12:03 PM

2015-05-15T12:03:06-04:00

We, as leaders, need to better verse ourselves in protocol. Running inside to avoid the flag does no good as we are supposed to assume the position of attention, face the flag and remain at attention until the last note is finished. I do not have the reference in front of me. I will edit this post to provide the reg and paragraph.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2015 12:12 PM

2015-05-15T12:12:01-04:00

AR 600-25 table C-1 page 20 in the notes. "note 2) At the first note of music: If out- doors, render hand salute; if in- doors, stand at attention. Hold this position until the last note of music has been played."

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2015 2:01 PM

2015-05-15T14:01:13-04:00

You cannot correct everyone, but you can keep doing what you are and correct as many as you can. I would suggest possibly having a talk with your First Seargeant addressing it, I am sure he/she has probably noticed the same thing. If its a unit wide thing, it is something that could be addressed at the next commanders call.

I see the same thing happening on occasion within my unit, but its not an everyday thing and usually only a few select individuals when it does occur. Fixing this is a lot easier than what yours sounds like.

Response by SFC Gary Comstock made May 15 at 2015 2:02 PM

2015-05-15T14:02:20-04:00

This is nothing new. Soldiers have always dodge it. But even if they are in a car they are suppose to get out to render the salute. I know when I was stationed at Ft Polk,LA if you didn't and the MPs caught you, you went in front of the post general to explain why. This even included civilians.

Response by SGT Jeremiah B. made May 15 at 2015 2:12 PM

2015-05-15T14:12:34-04:00

Nothing new here. Dodging Retreat was something nearly everyone did in the early 90's too. I would be shocked if you've never had a decision influenced by impending Retreat on occasion.

I think the big issue is that once you totally buy in to the military lifestyle and traditions, certain details begin to jump out at you. That's why career soldiers earned the not-so-affectionate term of "Lifer." The mentality is very different from young soldiers and those NCOs that still haven't decided to go the full 20. You've become a guardian of military traditions big and small. That's a good thing, but it also means you're going to notice things more than you used to.

Nail em to the wall if you see them sprinting to dodge it, but don't worry about it being some new or increasing trend. It's been this way forever.

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2015 2:13 PM

2015-05-15T14:13:27-04:00

I am inclined to agree with Ret. Capt Porter, I must admit that when I was in training status and the first few months at my first duty station I laughed and felt like I dodged something that took less than 5 minutes from what I wanted to do. I joined the honor guard for my unit and came to understand the true meaning of retreat. Since then, I've actually started to enjoy it, even going as far as when I stop my vehicle @ 1700 I get out and stand and salute proudly for the music.

Response by SGT Anthony Bussing made May 15 at 2015 2:31 PM

2015-05-15T14:31:08-04:00

been going on forever....

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2015 5:56 PM

2015-05-15T17:56:51-04:00

My previous 1sg came up with an excellent resolve by requiring the unit to stand at attention when indoors when the music started. Didn't stop the car sprinters but the cover seekers knew it didn't matter so they would just stay outside and salute.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2015 12:47 AM

2015-05-16T00:47:30-04:00

Considering your location is probably 120F+ at 1700, I'd probably wager that as the reason why Soldiers avoid staying standing outside longer than necessary. Doesn't make it right but just a guess.

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made May 16 at 2015 7:33 AM

2015-05-16T07:33:49-04:00

Cause they're lazy, Doesn't respect our customs and courtesies. We learn to do that custom throughout the military careers.