Why are some waivers (i.e. Misconduct) harder for re enlistment than more serious offensenses?

2015-01-28T15:19:33-05:00

I joined the Army, Active duty more than 5 years ago. I over reacted to my (SP) SFCT. I received 4 Article 15s for Misconducts of a serious offense, and was immediately separated from the service. It was the biggest regret of my life. Since then, I have kept my life clean, including no criminal charges (never arrested) in fact, I have never had a speeding ticket. So why, if I proved over the last 5 years, that I am a change man ready and fit for duty, can't I reenlist? Please no negative comments, I've heard enough over the last 5 years. I have wrote to the Army review board as well with no luck. I just want a chance to show I changed. I want to serve. I want to make a difference.

RE-3 JKQ (for those interested)

Response by MAJ Rich Thompson made Jan 28 at 2015 3:59 PM

2015-01-28T15:59:27-05:00

Mr Shipley, congratulations on getting yourself on a positive path. As for Military service you first must understand the situation from the Army/Military perspective. They gave you a chance to serve, based on your brief description I will take the leap to say your were less than an average Soldier. You were separated with numerous article 15s15s. Ask yourself from the Army's perspective of why they should allow you to wear the uniform again? Serving is a privilege not a right and it's NOT a welfare system. Once you can respect that perspective you can begin to prepare yourself to answer and better yet show the Army you will be of value to the organization. You stating you've changed is not sufficient. Aldo understand we are in a time of down sizing, so the Army while getting smaller will only accept the most promising candidates for device. I recommend you make yourself marketable by increasing your education, showing s strong employment record and find a recruiter who will assist you in the process of trying to re apply for service. If you do go the call your congressman route you will still be required to show why you are worthy of a waiver.

Response by COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM made Jan 28 at 2015 4:34 PM

2015-01-28T16:34:42-05:00

PV2 Shipley,
- You are looking at this from your own individual perspective. You may have greater understanding if you look at this from other perspectives such as the below. Other perspectives may give what you need to convince a decision making authority to give you another chance.
- Army perspective. The Army does not so much enlist/re enlist personnel as it does invest in them. This leads to decisions and guidance as to what is the best investment for the Army. Someone who has performed well with no disciplinary issues or someone who has received four Art 15s? Recommend you make an argument that overcomes this perspective.
- Civilian perspective. I assume you have a driver's license. If you were an insurance company, would you charge the higher insurance rate to a person with a clean driving record or who had four accidents five years ago? From this I mean that the Army does not operate much more differently than other organizations.
- Supply and Demand. The situation in 2008 is different than the situation now in 2015. In 2008 the Army was growing (demand) and people were not enlisting at the rates that that Army needed (supply). The Army was therefore more willing to grant waivers to enlist people. Now the Army is shrinking (decreasing demand) and is meeting its enlistment quotes (supply) therefore the Army is not willing and does not need to grant enlistment waivers. You may have to wait until the supply and demand situation changes back into your favor.
- "A Few Good Men". Good quote at end of this movie is along lines of "you don't have to wear a uniform to have honor". By this I mean you can serve and make a difference without being in the military. I recommend you have a "Plan B" in case your "Plan A" does not pan out.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Jan 28 at 2015 4:38 PM

2015-01-28T16:38:02-05:00

1st, I applaud you for your desire, motivation and work at correcting past wrongs.

But after that, the answer is plainly simple.. Supply and demand. The Service has the supply, and so there is little demand for any other then fully qualified with no waivers of any kind. never mind a prior service SM who was chapter ed on what, Chap 14-12b Patterns of misconduct ? or 14-12c Commission of a serious offense ?

So with a need to reduce strength, there is no need, want, motivation to bring in someone prior service that has a waiver.

The pool of waiting, wanting, qualified citizens who have not made legal transgressions in the past exceeds the number of SM needed.
The pool of waiting, wanting, qualified prior enlisted who have not made legal transgressions in the past exceeds the number of SM needed.
The pool of waiting, wanting, qualified enlisted already on active duty exceeds the number of SM needed.

All of that adds up to you not likely achieving your desired and worthy, but unrealistic goal.

Again, well done for turning things around, but as the saying goes. "that ship has sailed" time to move on.

Best of luck, sounds like your on the right track

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2015 4:43 PM

2015-01-28T16:43:39-05:00

I have been trying to get back in for almost 15 years. I feel your pain at getting waivers. I'm not sure what more they want me to send them to prove the medical "condition" they discharged me for does not exist anymore. Trying to get your RE code changed is like getting water from stone.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2015 5:48 PM

2015-01-28T17:48:07-05:00

From the recruiting standpoint you're prior service. Guys with honorable discharges have a hell of a time getting back in. You've had your chance and for whatever reason got out. That's the stance of big army. I had a staff sergeant engineer with every school under the sun. Clean record and great NCO. The only way I could put him in would be if he reclassed to infantry. The army spent massive amounts of money on this guy in one specific field and still no dice.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Jan 28 at 2015 6:04 PM

2015-01-28T18:04:27-05:00

First, I will echo the comments of others for the changes you have made in your life. Hopefully the incidents of indiscipline you were involved in while in the Army and the consequences you had to face because of them have made you realize the error of your ways and caused you to correct them. I commend you for that.

However, unfortunately, the consequences of those actions have lasting effects and, even though you have cleaned up your act, are difficult, if not impossible, to erase. My opinion is that is the case in your quest to get back into the Army, for all the reasons mentioned in the other responses to your question, which I will not regurgitate. I think your chance of getting a waiver to get back in is less than 1% and I think you are simply spinning your wheels and would be better off using your time to pursue something with more hope of achieving, like the education you mentioned. I don't like being the harbinger of bad news, but the facts are the facts and all the wishing and hoping in the world will not change that.

I do not know what transgressions you were charged with, and it is none of my business, but you stated they were for "misconduct of a serious offense" and that you were "immediately discharged. As such, I assume it was not something of a minor nature, however, not serious enough for a court-martial (unless you declined an Art 15). My honest opinion is that you will never overcome that, as far as the military is concerned, short of being able to go back in time and relive those days without the transgressions.

I also think that, in the highly unlikely chance that you were successful in getting back it, your military career would be very short lived, even if you were the model soldier. As has been mentioned, the Army is going through downsizing (or, as some say, "right-sizing"). That has happened before and it will happen again as the Army grows and shrinks based upon the needs of the country and what the budget will bear. I have seen absolutely outstanding NCOs put out of the Army during downsizing because they had something as innocuous as a DUI in their record 15 years prior and no other derogatory information at all. Your military discipline and discharge will forever be in your record and you would be one of the first targeted to be put out.

Please do not take this as a slam on you in any way. I admire your efforts to change your life and your desire to get back in the Army, but I just think it is a bridge too far for you and think you should put your efforts in something with a better chance of a payoff for you.

I love both of my sons dearly, but would give them the very same advice I am giving you, if they were in the same situation.

I wish you the very best of luck in whatever you decide to do. I hope you continue to get your life back in order and hope that you share your story with others who may be headed down the same path you once did.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2015 2:26 AM

2015-01-29T02:26:36-05:00

Have you tried the National Guard? They tend to be a little more forgiving than AD. My first enlistment in the military was AD in the late 90s I ended up getting a Misconduct with an RE3. 7 years later all I had to do was write a "Why I want to be in the Army" letter for the waiver.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2015 1:33 PM

2015-01-29T13:33:01-05:00

Mr . Shipley , I have to agree with everyone on here that your chances of coming back in is slim to none. I would recommend going to volunteer at the USO, VFW , Peace Corp and Legion of War. This organization help veterans and if you are a good volunteer and get some type of recognition then it will help you out tremendously. I also would recommend going to mentor juveniles about your experience and how not to follow in your path. Remember, don't be ashamed to tell people about your past, it can inspired or change them. I highly recommend you do that and get a college degree. Do not give up no matter how long it takes. It may take for another war for you to be able to come back in , but if this is your goal then never give up because no one is going to fight as hard for your goals and dreams in life , but you. Well, I wish you to best of luck in life and your goals

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 4:24 PM

2015-01-30T16:24:55-05:00

When you got your reaponse from the Army Review Boards Agency, there should have been a way for you to request an 'in person' hearing. Sometimes a face to face with the Board puts credance to your letter. The Agency has to give that to you. It means traveling to D.C., eating, and lodging on your own dime. At the end of the day though, even if they decide not to upgrade your discharge, you've done everything possible.

@MSG (P) Robert Brostoski, is correct. I have been in your shoes. I rarely tell my story, but now I'm going to put it out there. I went to Infantry OSUT at Harmony Church (Fort Benning) in 1988. graduated and became permanent party at Fort Stewart, GA in 1989. I was 17.

I lost my ever-lovin mind. I drank a lot, A LOT, and I did many things over the course of abuot 6 months (to include shoplifting at the PX, with a pocketful of money no less). I was discharged with an OTH and an RE code of 4 in August of 1989. Characterization of Service: Misconcuct; Patterns of Misconduct.

Eleven years and one month later, the towers at the World Trade Center fell. By that time I had matured, worked for several years in Alaska on fishing boats honing my work ethic and leadership skill. I had owned a business and gotten married and had children. I figured that I had gotten out because I was a dumbass at 17, not because I wasn't a patriot!

I petitioned ARBA to upgrade my dishcharge. The board denied the paper request. I requested an 'in person' hearing in front of the board. It cost me around $1000 for a plane ticket, lodging and food. I showed up in a suit. I answered their questions honestly. Then I went home. 60 days later I had a new discharge in the mail. They had upgraded my DD214 to a General; Under Honorable conditions; and changed my RE code to a 3, making me eligible for a waiver to join the ARNG.

It took me two more years to convince my wife at the time to let me enlist. She finally gave her consent and I enlisted as a PV1 in August of 2003. Less than a year later I was in Afghanistan.

I never in my life thought I would be an Officer. I never in my life thought I would have the opportunity for a 'do over'. I cherish every minute of it. I would classify my self as an exception to the rule, not the norm, however.

Right now your chances aren't good. The Army has the luxury to pick and choose who they want right now. Be patient, grow and mature more. You only get one shot at a 'in person' hearing in front of the board. Make it count.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2015 5:15 PM

2015-03-20T17:15:05-04:00

Hiya PV2 Shipley!
Is it ok that I say it's not just the RE3/JKQ, it's also the Characterization and of course needs of the Army.
Right now is a tight and tough time for all services, and only critical MOS or DLAB "SuperScores" are getting back in, WITHOUT waivers. This is per a current recruiter.
I applaud you on getting it together after the bad paper and bad issue. Given that you are living a well adjusted american life, have you tried to collect the facts and letters of reference to show potential employers? I know that when I interview for Counselors and Rec Leaders at my City Community Center, I will investigate the D/C with the applicant if and only if they brought the evidence and some backup to support their cause.
I wish you luck brother, I know it hurts. I have friends in your spot, and if I could turn back that clock for you I would.
Another good place to keep looking is the "rules of business" for PS relative to each branch. This outlines a good amount of what is wanted and what is barred.

Response by CSM Michael Lynch made Mar 20 at 2015 5:48 PM

2015-03-20T17:48:44-04:00

PV2 Shipley there is a lot of good advice that has been offered to you and it can be possible to get back in. 5-8 years ago if you were in the same situation with 5 good years it may have been easier. I would suggest as another did look at the National Guard and Army reserve they might be a better way to get your foot in the door, it will also take good recommendations, solid work history and some good community, veteran group support to allow a recruiting Battalion Commander the justification to grant a waiver during these times of downsizing.

It is not a lost battle and one that can be one, if not soon in the future. I applaud you with the others for taking accountability for your actions and working to try it again and do it like a Solider should.

Being a former recruiter, you don't know how many times I heard from prior Service with bad discharges wanting to get back in, but when you asked them what happened " the Army Screwed me, they wouldn't promote me to E-5 after my DUI and forced me to get out" REALLY damn the Big Army people (sarcastically). you are doing it fright. I wish you the best of luck and we look forward to hearing from you when it does. Head High and Ruck on

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2015 5:52 PM

2015-03-20T17:52:03-04:00

Unfortunately for some the military...holds a grudge, for lack of better wording. It is one thing for you to be on the straight and narrow when you are the master and commander of your own life but the military is forced to question how you will react if you are allowed to re-enter service where you are constantly told what to do, where, and when to go by someone you don't respect or like. Please don't think I am judging you, I am glad you are on the right path but if you look at your situation objectively, how much money did the military spend in training you, paying you, feeding you, housing you? With 4 article 15's someone must have made some effort at rehabilitating or retraining you, how many man hours and how much money went into that? In today's world with the fiscal restrictions that are placed on the military the (insert service branch here) just cannot afford to take another chance on you.

Response by CPT Kurt Woods made May 5 at 2015 8:20 AM

2015-05-05T08:20:50-04:00

As a former enlisted soldier and Commander, I am happy to hear that you have transformed yourself. Unfortunately, while people do deserve second chances, you had four of them and repeatedly messed.
I'm sure you are a changed man of honor; however, the risk is too high.
I would recommend focusing your attention to your education and becoming a productive member of society.
I wish you the very best!

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2015 4:22 PM

2015-05-12T16:22:08-04:00

Excellent advice/responses here... Like many have stated, needs of the service must always prevail. With downsizing, the entire military can be very selective. I had a friend I was trying to assist in enlisting in the coast guard. He was told he's good, however, there is a 3 year wait. (That was a year ago, not sure if that has changed) Best of luck and I hope if you are ready. Fighting to get back in you should see the value and opportunity of being a member of the military.

Response by PV2 Benjamin Niles made Jul 17 at 2015 1:12 PM

2015-07-17T13:12:02-04:00

I've been doing the same for three years now battle. All I ever wanted was to be a soldier and I had some serious personal problems that stood in the way of my ability as a soldier, I was separated like yourself and have been trying to rectify my situation as well.

I've gotten college classes started and I've kept up with PT even doing a PT test every other month. Had the same job for three years now, I sent in my dd214 and I can't seem to get a response from the review board..

I've changed for the better it seems and I've been trying hard to go further than I ever have. Ironically in a way, the struggle to get back in has greatly improved me as a soldier haha.

You're not alone in the fight here, and while I'm sorry you're going through it -I'm glad I'm not alone either.

Response by PVT J Barreiro made Aug 15 at 2015 2:47 AM

2015-08-15T02:47:27-04:00

I was in the exact same boat. I was an RE-3 with patterns of misconduct. I have been trying for the last 6 years to get in. I was 17 when i joined - made stupid 17 year old decisions and yes they have haunted me ever since.

I just got back in. I have tried every branch of service and pretty much every recruiter in the state. The ONLY WAY in is Army National Guard.

You will have to bust your ass and you have to want it. Go into the recruiting station with a humble attitude - Have your paperwork ready and tight - dd214 birth certificate etc. One thing that helped my particular case is obtaining character ref. letters from my previous CO that actually chaptered me out of the Army. I e-mailed him and said many of the things you posted on this forum. He was kind enough to support me and write me that letter. I got letters from my current employers / police officers - people i've helped join the Army since my chapter.

Make this process as easy as possible for your recruiter. Remember - there are many other easier recruits these guys can take to in the guard than a complicated national level waiver for a misconduct re-3.

You will need the State Adjutant General to sign off on your waiver which will be a different officer for every state - Then it will go to the NGB and they will (hopefully) sign off on it.

My process from day one to the day my packet completed took about 7 months.

If your heart is in the military - Do not give up. Never give up. - I must emphasize this - wanting to get back in can't be for financial reasons or housing or school. Your motives need to be pure and selfless service - to right your wrong and finish what you started. Since I got out of the military I found a great job and I make great money at it, I am married now with a kid on the way. I have a house, a dog. What I consider to be a great life - except for never finishing what I started. I heard no hundreds of times from tons of different recruiters of all branches for SIX YEARS. Ignore the cynics - be an optimist. I hope this message helps you and any other soldiers that might have screwed up in their youth. It will take some serious hard work and dedication - but it can be done.

Response by PFC Michael Mcdermott made Aug 27 at 2015 5:21 PM

2015-08-27T17:21:22-04:00

You got 4 article 15's for 1 incident? I hear the guide lines are becoming increasingly difficult to adhere to. Seems like they are just looking for reasons to get rid of soldiers. All of this DOWNSIZING is not going to be good for our national defense

Response by PO3 Megan Elise made Apr 10 at 2017 11:42 AM

2017-04-10T11:42:07-04:00

I am trying to get back into the Navy, active duty. I was honorably discharged for failure to pass my fitness test over the time that I was in. Since, I was discharged almost 2 years ago, I have been working on maintaining that so that I could go back in. I went and spoke to the recruiters in Smyrna,TN, but they weren't much help in the matter and told me it would be difficult. I never had any disciplinary action and was a reservist out of NOSC NYC in Bronx,NY. I will do whatever I have to in order to get back in. I just need some advice on if that is possible and what my options are. Thank you.

Response by PFC Jordan Robey made Jul 7 at 2017 8:30 PM

2017-07-07T20:30:44-04:00

I did the same thing. I am an E-3. I got demoted. I am currently re-enlisting. BUT i had no article 15's, i did dumb stuff such as leaving wall locker unsecured, being late, not shaving. Keep in mind i went to PRC (pre ranger course and completed it). That's probably why I am getting back in, its all about the comannder in the battalion/brigade. As shitty as it sounds it depends on how bad a recruiting center needs people.

Response by PFC Jordan Robey made Jul 19 at 2017 11:22 AM

2017-07-19T11:22:46-04:00

Update, I got my waiver to get back into the military and going to swear in Friday. It all depends what is on your separation counselling. My said "not shaving face "left wall locker unsecured" I did nothing major I was just young and dumb at 18 (now 23) I also have a great job and my wife has a business so he knew I wasn't looking for a hand out. He saw I was leaving a good job and life behind because of how bad I missed it. Many times the commander said was " people come in here thinking its a free job and we NEED people." It's not. I waited almost a year for me to get this waiver. I also couldn't pass a PT yes but months later I came back in and got a 267. It proved a lot. What I'm trying to say is if you did something bad and or got article 15's (field grade) might as well not even try.

Response by SGT Eric Davis made Jan 25 at 2018 6:11 PM

2018-01-25T18:11:44-05:00

Have you tried to get back in or are you in yet?

Response by SFC Kenneth G. made May 30 at 2018 6:54 AM

2018-05-30T06:54:37-04:00

I know as a former Recruiter and Station Commander I had a hard time getting people back in the Army under conditions such as these. They normally had an RE code of 4. Once you are given an RE code of 4, it takes an act of Congress and a pardon of from the President of the United States to get it removed. Of course I am probably stating something that is not true but trying to show how serious this really is. The Army frowns upon soldiers that had numerous "falling outs" during their tenure of service where they received a lot of non-judicial punishment that caused their removal from service. The Army feels that they are not going to go down that road again to have to possibly put you out again for the same reasons. It would not be cost effective for the Army. This is why the Army has it's policies on these matters. If you got back in and started getting into trouble again, It would detract from the unit's mission and well being of the soldiers assigned to the unit. Your best bet now would be to go out and try to be the best man you can be in the civilian sector and prove your worth to your community and your neighbors. If you have truly changed your habits then you will be successful in your endeavors wherever you may work and serve. Good luck on finding that skill that suits you and becoming prosperous and helpful to all around you.