Why are the Services pushing college so hard to the exclusion of vocational education?

COL Matt Finley — Thu, 22 Jan 2015 15:11:41 -0500

Is not vocational education more appropriate for many veterans? Throughout GI Bill history, vocational education seems to have been a 2:1 favorite yet recently it is just the opposite. With the number of college educated unemployed, would certifications serve many veterans better than a degree?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2015 3:13 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Jan 2015 15:13:32 -0500

Sir,

I can not speak for everyone but when I force College Vocational School follow that.
V/r
1SG Haro

Response by SPC Jack Hunt, JR made Jan 22 at 2015 4:00 PM

SPC Jack Hunt, JR — Thu, 22 Jan 2015 16:00:24 -0500

Col. Matt Finley, you are quite right. I have always told my friends, especially my younger friends of the value of a vocation over an actual degree. The short time it takes most to complete a vocational schools is a bonus, and many are better off by not accumulating the debt associated with a 4 year degree. Not to mention after graduating from a vocational school the individual can start working most often and begin to earn money. Meanwhile the person seeking a degree is still in school.

Response by SFC Doug Lee made Jan 23 at 2015 12:22 AM

SFC Doug Lee — Fri, 23 Jan 2015 00:22:23 -0500

I think a college 4 year degree is the biggest ponzi scheme ever created and the masses just keep falling for it. It people invested the time and money that it takes to get a degree into starting a business, they could actually become affluent as opposed to going into decades of debt.

I'm sure someone will mention that they need a business degree to start a business. Wrong! I've taken business classes and they were a complete waste of time. They are irrelevant and not real world at all. The goal of colleges is to have you go into tens of thousands and even a hundred thousand dollars in debt and then they consider you a success if you graduate and get a $30,000 a year job. How does that compute to success?

Response by CSM David Heidke made Jan 23 at 2015 8:45 AM

CSM David Heidke — Fri, 23 Jan 2015 08:45:11 -0500

Because Colleges are full of Liberal evangelists who need employment, and where else can you get people to pay to have themselves brainwashed!

The government is fully vested in the pyramid that is college education.

That's why.

Response by SPC Christopher Smith made Jan 23 at 2015 9:34 AM

SPC Christopher Smith — Fri, 23 Jan 2015 09:34:12 -0500

The introduction of the "work smart, not hard" campaign back in the '70s , or maybe even before changed the culture of America. It destroyed the idea that blue collar work was a great way to keep food on the table, and made it seem demeaning compared to white collar work. That said, a college back then was worth its weight in preparing young men and women for the work force. It was put out late last year, most companies feel as though young college grads are ill prepared to begin working, because they are taught everything but how to function in an office.

I personally worked many blue collar jobs, painting and drywall was the primary. I feel like I have a better shot at finding stable work with those skills, because my Bachelors degree I got before the Army didn't pan out, that I why I'm serving now. I agree that the D.o.D should be pushing service members (SMs) in the direction of vocational schools. Many of the jobs being created are skilled labor jobs, and there are not enough people to fill the slots. SMs have a unique background in working with many different types of equipment, building and demolishing field sites, and a whole gambit of other skills that they take for granted which are highly marketable.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Jan 23 at 2015 10:43 AM

SFC Mark Merino — Fri, 23 Jan 2015 10:43:22 -0500

I was denied by the VA for Voc Rehab because they said I was not a viable candidate for employment due to my injuries and TBI. Being told that was like telling me that I was permanently broken and unworthy of being fixed. I paid to send myself back to school to finish my degree. If someone comes to you with fire in their belly and a never say die attitude, why try to "help" them by holding them back? Never let someone else define your limitations.

Response by SGT James Elphick made Jan 23 at 2015 11:44 AM

SGT James Elphick — Fri, 23 Jan 2015 11:44:54 -0500

I think there are several issues at play here. One of the most important is that despite being certified by the military to do a job and having experience in that field, once a service member leaves the service in many ways it is almost as if it doesn't count because they don't have a civilian certification to back it up. This is complicated by the fact that vocational schools in general have been in decline because society as a whole has been focused on everyone going to college. We all know how well that has turned out. Add to that the post 9/11 GI Bill and soldiers are more apt to go for a 4 year degree instead of a 2 year vocational degree or even shorter certificate program because they want to get all of their GI Bill money. I think that influences why a college education is pushed on transitioning service members. At the school I work at we are constantly increasing our vocational programs and many veterans are enrolling in those programs. But because there have been fewer outlets for technical and vocational certificates it is going to take time to rebuild but it is coming back and I think we will see more Vets taking advantage of it in the future.

Response by MAJ Jim Steven made Jan 23 at 2015 12:03 PM

MAJ Jim Steven — Fri, 23 Jan 2015 12:03:04 -0500

I watched on YouTube a segment where Mike Rowe of Dirty Jobs gave a talk to Congress about pushing more VOC school and less college.
His basic argument was that everybody goes into mad debt to get a degree and then cant find a job, they cant really do anything. In VOC school, you have much less debt and can make pretty decent money when you get out, with a legit skill.
any yayhoo can "manage"

My time will be up soon, and I think I will go get some licenses (plumbing, electric, heat/AC). I am told you get paid serious money just to show up at the house. If you have business sense, you can hire others to do, and manage that business.
I dont need another Master's degree....the first one was an ORB/Resume decoration, anyway...

Response by SFC Doug Lee made Jan 24 at 2015 12:17 AM

SFC Doug Lee — Sat, 24 Jan 2015 00:17:58 -0500

The economy has changed just like it always does and just gov't funded and supported programs, universities and public education as a whole is way behind the curve. The days of working a corporate job for 30 years and getting a great retirement and benefits are mostly over with. There is a better way, but most people don't want to admit that.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2015 11:32 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 24 Jan 2015 11:32:38 -0500

The NC National Guard is working on programs to translate military skills to civilian certifications. Along with that we are developing training programs and trying to find ways to pay for training that VA benefits will not cover. Vocational training will give you acess to more than double the number of jobs that a degree will. You have a slight chance of landing a 90k job with a bachelor's but you'll owe 45k+ in student loans. We are working on ways to land a 45k+ job with no debt. The blue collar work force is about to retire within the next ten years. If everyone has a degree but no one knows how to work, what good did it do to get the degree.

Response by COL Vincent Stoneking made Jan 24 at 2015 1:03 PM

COL Vincent Stoneking — Sat, 24 Jan 2015 13:03:51 -0500

In my experience (I'm not an LT, so I can say that now!!), it is part of a broad shift in society where trades and skilled labor are BOTH devalued as "what you do if you can't do any better" and are looked down upon. Everyone is trying to be at the top of the imaginary pyramid.

This is extraordinarily wrong and self-defeating both individually, and as a society. As a society, all of these roles are needed and valuable. In fact both the trades and skilled labor are the bedrock of a functional society. From an individual standpoint, they are often great paths that pay well, are portable, and can be fulfilling work. I think Mike Rowe has nailed this many times.

Response by SFC Doug Lee made Jan 24 at 2015 1:05 PM

SFC Doug Lee — Sat, 24 Jan 2015 13:05:13 -0500

this may just be a coincidence but have you all noticed the ads on RP? They fall right in line with the narrative.

Response by Joseph Wong made Feb 7 at 2015 8:47 PM

Joseph Wong — Sat, 07 Feb 2015 20:47:40 -0500

Veterans have to do their homework and leverage military friendly companies that offer vocational avenues. Time Warner Cable has a federally recognized apprenticeship programs in the Carolinas and Texas.

We teach and pay you to lean how to be a broadband technician, and vets with a gi bill can draw up to $14k annually tax free. Still want to go to college after that? Then we advocate the veteran take advantage of out tuition reimbursement program and save the gi bill for any overages.

We can't hire enough veterans for out technician slots, with the apprenticeship program and the gi bill, it's compelling. Perhaps more compelling then getting a random degree.

Response by PO2 Christopher Morehouse made Feb 7 at 2015 10:41 PM

PO2 Christopher Morehouse — Sat, 07 Feb 2015 22:41:41 -0500

Colonel, I agree with you to a point, but I think that any broad strokes concerning a transition into the civilian sector is wrong, be it vocational or college. I think more long term career planning geared for that individual well before separation (say 6 months to a year) is necessary. This will get the SM to start thinking about their goals after separation if they haven't already and provide them with ample time for research and introspection. With planning and foresight, either direction will be bountiful, the problem IMHO is that they are lacking in one or the other when they leave the service.

My own experience involved the college route. Between TA while on AD and the GI Bill, I was able to get my BA in Economics and 2 years of law school without spending a dime. While in school, I did my best to always have some kind of employment (usually unpaid internships) to build experience. Out of law school I was one of a small majority that had employment once licensed. I attribute this to planning and foresight. I'm not saying I knew 5 to 6 years ago this is where I would be. But, I always kept a weather-eye on the horizon, made adjustments when necessary, and never lost track of where I was heading. I feel if everyone did that, a vast majority would be successful. That is what career counselors should be trying to do to impart on SM's leaving the service, be it on a vocational track or college.

Perhaps I'm tooting my own horn a bit much, but I've worked hard for what I have now at the same time as many others trying the same path. Some of them have not made it to where I am now. I would hate to think it was simply due to luck.

Response by SrA David Steyer made Sep 10 at 2015 8:51 AM

SrA David Steyer — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 08:51:03 -0400

How about we start giving people certifications while they are in? I understand it's not the military’s business to give people certifications so they can up and leave, but it may make the transition easier for people. It is crazy we have people in the service that can drive large trucks, but have to get a CDL on their own because they aren't qualified. I understand some states have made it easier/waived the process but I think it's time to get it straight up while you are in.

I think this is worthwhile and a good idea but I want see something standard across all branches. I see the Army and Marines have vocational programs people are released to their last few months in the service - I would LOVE to see something like this in the USAF. Yes I have the Post 9/11 GI Bill, but I am on my own and SOL with getting a job.

I'm in the USAF and my military job translates to a civilian job that pays a living wage only if you have a master’s degree, a few certifications (we only get one that is limited to the military) on your own and getting them through the government is really hard even though the program to get certifications has been made easier, and finally if you keep up with current events on your own time. Moreover, I don't want to do what I am doing in the USAF when I get out. It translates in name alone.