Why can’t an enlisted soldier date an officer?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Mar 2014 10:13:01 -0400

With all the changes DoD is making to placate the minoritygroups (i.e. DADT repeal, grooming for certain groups) why has no one looked atthe officer/enlisted relationship issue. I totally get that is should not
happen within the unit (which should apply to enlisted/enlisted and officer/officer
as well) but if a enlisted troop happens
to meet a officer in a different command and neither could affect the others career,
then why is it still and issue? Not trying to change policy, just looking for
feedback.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2014 10:21 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Mar 2014 10:21:39 -0400

I myself wonder the same thing. I have seen a few people come subject to this case. Personally I think, if you have the feelings for someone and you both are single, you should be able to pursue that relationship as long as it is outside of the command.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2014 11:39 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Mar 2014 11:39:44 -0400

Being in the National Guard this is even more at issue. With the fact that a lot of people may know/work with one another on the civilian side. I'm in a HHC unit that's very officer heavy and have some that I've known since high school. It adds a different dynamic to the possible officer/enlisted dating issue.

Response by SFC Stephen P. made Mar 25 at 2014 12:55 PM

SFC Stephen P. — Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:55:10 -0400

When the involved parties are not on active duty, different standards apply. 14 years ago, active duty officers and enlisted could date (in the Army at least). I really don't think this is comparable to DADT or grooming standards. The officer/enlisted class system was deliberately established in order to foster discipline and respect for authority. I think the segregation is an effective method of psychologically insulating our officers from the impact their decisions may have on their subordinates. It is easier to order the under class into danger than it is your peers. It is easier to stomach a peon's death than a brother's. It's not a happy truth, but this is not a happy profession. I don't think organizational separation is sufficient. All officers need to view all enlisted as a different species.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2014 1:57 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:57:51 -0400

I think this ultimately comes down to good order an discipline.  I do understand how it can be difficult to argue against allowing relationships between Officers and Enlisted in different job fields, but sometimes leaders are in charge of troops who are not necessarily in the same field.  For example, I had a company commander a few years ago, while in a MI company, who was a Field Artillery officer.  It doesn't necessarily happen often, but it does happen.  I think the policy is to prevent any potential conflict of interest because down the line, it could happen. Now to play devil's advocate, I don't necessarily think that relationships should be prohibited.  It is up to professionals to cut off any relationship if there is a conflict of interest, as in the situation I described above, but there are plenty of situations where a conflict of interest could be possible.  For example, I am stationed at DLI, but our housing is mixed between Officers and NCOs.  Living in the housing are Officers attending the Naval Post Graduate School.  I don't see a problem with a relationship between an Army NCO who is a linguist and a Naval Officer who is studying something like engineering, where the two could virtually never be within the same command.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2014 11:51 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 26 May 2014 11:51:55 -0400

I was asked in Afghanistan by a foreign officer why we did not allow it. They could as the promotion system was based off of tests and not really based off the commanders. He said that they had a commander (O-5 or O-6) dating a E-4 type. Everyone knew about it and nobody really cared as it was acceptable. However, the good order of discipline is what I have always heard when briefed on it in our service. You never know you may come upon another unit that got hit and have to take command of the scene and order those servicemembers and you do not want to have to worry about one particular Soldier in particular and say I better get them out. Not saying it would necessarily, but it will help prevent you from putting yourself in that position.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2014 1:58 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 26 May 2014 13:58:43 -0400

SFC, I say this with all due respect to seniors but I believe part of it is the jealousy of some officers who see a SFC or SSG dating a young, pretty 1LT/2LT who wants nothing to do with that senior. While it may not be the most prevalent reason, I do know it exists since I saw it firsthand while I was stationed in Okinawa. Won't go into details but it didn't involve me. Just a friend of mine.

Personally, I could give a flip who dates whom. If the individuals are in two different units, and they are mature enough to handle situations when they arise, then who cares. Yes, I know rules are rules right now but that doesn't make it right.

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2014 8:37 PM

Col Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 26 May 2014 20:37:18 -0400

I have seen this happen in all branches and am not sure why it has not yet been addressed as have the other issues you mentioned. However, it does seem as if it only becomes a UCMJ issue when it interferes with the mission, affects leadership and command, or someone catches wind and gets jealous. I think one of the reasons it hasn't change is because some folks choose to look the other way, or sweep it under the carpet.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2014 1:45 AM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 27 May 2014 01:45:00 -0400

Within the same unit can be a problem but I had a Gunny who was married to a Naval Officer and my father a 1SG was married to an Air Force Capt.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2014 9:40 AM

1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 27 May 2014 09:40:36 -0400

Why because it's a violation of the UCMJ.

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made May 28 at 2014 11:06 AM

SSG Kevin McCulley — Wed, 28 May 2014 11:06:54 -0400

Enlisted can date officers.. Officers just can't date enlisted. LOL J/k

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2014 1:05 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 28 May 2014 13:05:46 -0400

I would consider how all of us feel when a spouse wears a Soldiers rank, I would be even more upset if a Major married a Sergeant and now that E5 is running around telling people he/she is going to tell their husband/wife about how you treated them. I know the real reason the military does this is to seperate the ranks and ensure that a leader, any leader, is not put in a position to have to make a decision that would affect their spouse. Family and Business just don't mix well.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2014 1:27 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 28 May 2014 13:27:42 -0400

When I was an active duty SSG in HQs INSCOM, two SPCs were given a lot of crap by their NCO support channel for dating each other. They were in different sections, and neither supervised the other, and they were both SPCs!

One got promoted to SGT, and the other got out. Upon the SGT reaching ETS, they also got out. The military lost out on two great soldiers because of this crap.

I say sometimes people really need to mind their own business....what was the question again?

Response by SFC Laura Whitehead made May 28 at 2014 6:47 PM

SFC Laura Whitehead — Wed, 28 May 2014 18:47:11 -0400

I am on the other side of the fence. I think the DOD should enforce fraternization policies with a scorched earth approach. Men and women in the military should learn to develop professional relationships in the military and keep it in their pants. An officer is in a position of trust and should not be dating their troops; NCOs should not date lower enlisted. I don’t think the military force is a dating club.

Response by MSG Floyd Williams made May 29 at 2014 12:46 PM

MSG Floyd Williams — Thu, 29 May 2014 12:46:37 -0400

I don't think the relationship can survive because of two things can lead to disrespect and drama when something goes wrong. Think about the mess is creating pulling rank, the enlisted person feels he/she don't have to listen, there is so many wrong things that you will normally see in civilian life. I'm not a fan of soap operas, but this will hurt the morale of soldiers and end up being wide spread throughout the U.S. Armed Forces, look at some of the changes that is upsetting the military community now.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2014 9:16 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 29 May 2014 21:16:57 -0400

I met my husband when I was a Second Lieutenant and he was a Specialist and we were in different components of the Army so our chain of commands did not cross. It was not until he was a Sergeant and I was a Captain that he switched to the Army Reserve and we make sure I am never in his chain of command. So far it has worked and we have been married for 22 years.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2014 9:39 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 29 May 2014 21:39:36 -0400

Why? Because we're an organization of the least common denominator. Are there people who can wholly maintain good order and discipline while dating someone of a significantly different rank? Yes. When I entered service, it was entirely okay.

But enough people can't, and so we make rules based on those failures instead of addressing the individual failures. It happens across our policies -- women can't wear nail polish and have a specific nail length proscribed because too many of them were wearing outlandish colors and distractingly long lengths; men and women are so tatt'ed up that one spends more time reading their necks, ears, hands, and legs than actually attending to what they are saying; etc.

The right answer is to address matters as they are present -- does CPT Smith dating SPC Snuffy create a problem? If it does, then it should be ended and without whining. Quite frankly, CPT Smith and SPC Snuffy might be pretty close in age and with as well-educated as our enlisted are, they might actually have things in common ... more so, anyway, than the LTC who married a 22 year old 2LT fresh out of college.

But that's not our organization -- decision-making by band-aid or amputation, nothing in between.

Response by TSgt Scott Hurley made May 31 at 2014 2:26 PM

TSgt Scott Hurley — Sat, 31 May 2014 14:26:10 -0400

I have a story to tell about this. I dated an officer once. She was a LTC in the VA NG. It was a blind date persay since we were put together by a dating company. I was still in at the time. When we both found out about that we were Officer and Enlisted having a date. We both kind of laughed at it and both had a good time for the hour we were together. We both knew that we could not make this permanent because of the rules. But you do bring up something interesting. Who knows what may happen in the future.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2014 4:40 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 May 2014 16:40:49 -0400

http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r600_20.pdf

AR 600-20, Paragraph 4-14

Response by TSgt John Marshall made Jun 4 at 2014 2:29 PM

TSgt John Marshall — Wed, 04 Jun 2014 14:29:09 -0400

They CAN, but it is severely frowned upon. My wife and I married when we were both active duty Air Force: me- TSgt; her- Capt. We were "punished". I won't go into detail, but I retired a TSgt but, my wife retired a Maj. She was a nurse and I was a unit training manager. We never had to work together and didn't for 6 years and then I retired. My wife contaminated the officer gene pool, something had to be done.

I understand the need to have standards. I also understand that, while a UTM working the education center, I counseled more enlisted Airmen on their masters degrees than officers. I also understand that when God brings two people together, He outranks.

Antiquated and yet necessary, after all, open season for dating would destroy good order and discipline.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Jun 24 at 2014 12:07 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 12:07:33 -0400

Because the regulations said so...

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Jun 27 at 2014 3:49 PM

CW5 Sam R. Baker — Fri, 27 Jun 2014 15:49:47 -0400

The policy it of itself is kind of crazy these days with there no longer being officer and NCO clubs on post, now there are community clubs which are open to all ranks. This dilemma has came up many times especially when folks meet down range in say Nashville. Is the first question out of your mouth when you meet someone of the opposite sex, do you have an military ID card? Some folks beat around the bush not divulging their position due to OPSEC or whatever. There are many instances where folks have gotten married from the opposite ranks, back in the day it was fine as long as the were not in the chain of command or area of influence. Not sure it ever will come back to that, but we will see, heck they have to get UCMJ re-written now also.

Response by PFC Zanie Young made Jul 29 at 2014 10:33 AM

PFC Zanie Young — Tue, 29 Jul 2014 10:33:11 -0400

The way I learned, I am not to fraternize with any female in uniform, officer or enlisted. I later understood that any breakups with said females can get quite ugly after that. So I did not.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2014 1:56 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 01:56:22 -0400

I think one of the biggest problems is that the military expects of us to be "robots" and that we should forget that in the end we are and will always be - Human.

This (being human) does not excuse our behavior (for which we make ourselves responsible for and should accept when held accountable), and from us it should be expected to act as adults and professionals who leave personal issues at home - Unless of course we're seeking counseling.

With that said, I do think that in order for future health of the military an investment should be made into educating us further about professionalism and relationships. As far as what is expected, what is and what is not acceptable in the workplace. Maybe not mandatory in general but general but mandatory if you have interest/desire to date a fellow service member. And not something that you could reprimanded over if someone found out you were already dating, instead guidance should be given telling the two individuals they had to take the "training" if they wanted to be together.

The biggest issue the military runs into with this (in my opinion) is that we all know that we have a life after the military, relationships being something that will extend beyond life in the military. Especially with how unstable the job-security seems to be nowadays with the force drawbacks.

- By enforcing the restrictions it shows the military does not care about nor value what we as individuals value, that being individual relationships (or our outreach for them).

- By educating members it develops life-skills in general and also shows that the military cares about it's service members enough to invest into their future.

I can see why someone who feels they do not need education on relationships/proper behavior could see this as intrusive but if you can say you are already "trained" it would also get other's (leadership) to ease off you unless they see you were stepping out of bounds in which you could be corrected. Who knows, you may also get something out of it even if it's just something small.

In the long run, keeping this "it's unacceptable" attitude will only be detrimental to the military itself.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2014 6:54 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 06:54:26 -0400

Can't say that I've often seen the mil-to-mil thing work out for both the unit and the couple.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2014 8:36 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 08:36:23 -0400

SFC Stonebraker, they can and do, they should not if in the same chain of command. We dealt with the issue more severely in the 70s at the WAC Hq. I remember a male 1sg married a female commander in the same unit. One went to Alaska....

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2014 1:02 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 13:02:25 -0400

with all do respect to officers, who want to date/be in a relationship with someone that have to be addicted to their work in order to make it to the next rank?

Response by Cpl Glynis Sakowicz made Oct 23 at 2014 2:58 PM

Cpl Glynis Sakowicz — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 14:58:34 -0400

I knew a LOT of people who 'cross the line' in the Corps, but there weren't that many Women Marines, and I suppose we felt more inclined to take care of each other than to drop a dime on another Marine.
Most, I have to say, were pilots who were dating Women Marines, but few knew outside of their close friends. The way most of us saw it, was simple. Outside of the unit, fine... inside a unit, 'Zeros and E's didn't mix. Inside most Marine units, upper Enlisted and lower Enlisted rarely even talked outside of work, because it just wasn't done.
Maybe its our training, but we knew, given some unforeseen circumstance in a war zone, that Sergeant may be leading that Cpl and having emotions about that person other than strictly work connected, would not be a good thing.
It is, quite frankly, in the Corps, a matter of chain of command. Same command, hell no... a Squadron officer and a Grunt-side Enlisted Marine... no problem as long as they keep it to themselves, and yes it goes on all the time. There are more than a few Women Marines who were enlisted, who are now officer's wives, and I know of at least three Women Marines who are on a career path, who are married to men who WERE officers. I sometimes think that it was really the first "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" situation in the military. But that's just me...

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2014 10:29 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 22:29:42 -0400

Its probably an outdated reg in some respects. Although I believe one of the reasons I have heard it is not aloud is the appearance of impropriety. I think a lot has to do with back in the day when there was more off duty interaction among peers. I remember back when my dad was officer in the 80's that they all would meet up at the O club after work etc, which is a tradition that has faded away. when the services were a good ole boys club, it was thought that even though you may not be in the same command you might be buds at the O'club with said enlisted person's boss. Lets say that person get s promoted or awarded, there could be the look that you may have had some indirect influence on it. In some cases that might actually happen.

It is fraternization between an officer and enlisted. But it is still not legal between senior enlisted and junior enlisted if they are in the same command. The Air Force has tried and convicted a couple SNCO's for having improper relationships with Airman. One of them was a potential contender for the CMSAF. Former Chief, now Airman Basic William Gunnery was the Command Chief Master Sergeant of the AF Material Command hewas using his influence as a MAJCOM top enlisted to do favors for female Airman who in turn would be part of his swingers parties. Those Airman were given top Majcom level recognition even thought they were not top performers in their squadrons at Wright-Patt. Those Airman had a SNCO who was getting real suspicious and finally invoked an investigation after Gurney tried to pull rank on another Chief who was their direct chain. Consequently he was busted down to china town flushing a 28 year career down to a Bad Conduct Discharge.

Response by LTC William Lee Jr made Nov 5 at 2014 1:17 PM

LTC William Lee Jr — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 13:17:58 -0500

I met my ex-wife when I was a Captain and she was a Specialist (both of us in the Army). For the next 12 years we kept our military lives and personal lives separate. There was a time when we were both assigned to the same battalion (I was the battalion XO and she was one of the company supply sergeants). Due to our professionalism not many Soldiers in the battalion were even aware we were married (I was a MAJ(P) and she was a SFC), even though we both had the same last name.

As long as both parties are professional, it does not affect either Soldier's career, and they are not in the same chain of command there is no issue (in my honest opinion).

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2014 11:49 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Nov 2014 11:49:48 -0500

Because they would produce another Warrant Officer.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2014 11:22 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Nov 2014 23:22:28 -0500

As long as one doesn't have a direct effect on the other, I don't see an issue personally. I know its against all sorts of fraternization rules and what have you... but I have friends who are much higher ranking than myself, and I see it no different; as long as they aren't unprofessionally effecting your career in some way (i.e. favoritism) it doesn't hurt discipline or harm unit cohesion.

I know others would disagree though.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2014 12:16 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Nov 2014 00:16:57 -0500

I agree, you miss out on so many great people, that you come into contact with. This is not the 1700's of kings, lords and dukes who where the officers and the peasant or fieldworkers were the enlistlisted. There is no true distinct difference anymore beside a 4 year degree.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2015 10:17 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Feb 2015 22:17:53 -0500

It is like dating somebody in the barracks. I always tell people that there are many more opportunities outside the gate. Of course, if you are in Diego Garcia and such, you don't really have a lot of choices. That's why they have PCS.

Response by TSgt John Marshall made Apr 25 at 2015 12:52 PM

TSgt John Marshall — Sat, 25 Apr 2015 12:52:53 -0400

They can date. They just need to be prepared for the of, if any. My wife was an AF Captain when I met her, I was a TSgt. Notice that my rank stayed the same from six years before I retired. That was my consequence. My wife didn't have any lasting effects. What God brought together, no man put asunder.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2015 7:25 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 07:25:47 -0400

Since I held both officer and NCO ranks concurrently, I seem to have been fraternizing with myself for years!

Response by PO3 Larry Georgiana made Jun 1 at 2015 7:54 PM

PO3 Larry Georgiana — Mon, 01 Jun 2015 19:54:58 -0400

I have a friend from WA who was a Navy E-5 married to an Army 02, but they were married before his wife was commissioned. His command (mostly the E7 and above and JO's who tried hitting on his wife at command functions) used to give him trouble over it, despite it being legal under the UCMJ. To my knowledge, that's the only acceptable route, although I think the logic behind the reg is a bit archaic.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 2 at 2015 2:39 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Jun 2015 02:39:57 -0400

It seems the policy has flip-flopped a few times. It was allowed under certain conditions when I was on active duty 73-79. I worked at an Army Hospital and there were a couple enlisted-officer marriage, then later I heard it was no longer permitted. Obviously, one could not be under command or supervision of the other. I generally think it should be allowed. You could also have the situation where two enlisteds are married and one gets a commission later. Ive known some situations where that happened. Finally in the reserves, it should certainly be allowed there as I believe that the military shouldn't dictate relationship choices in civilian life. However, obviously, once the commander is aware of such a relationship or marriage, make sure ones not directly commanding or supervising the other. (Even where you have 2 NCO or officers together, one still should not supervising the other.)

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Jul 25 at 2015 10:16 AM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Sat, 25 Jul 2015 10:16:49 -0400

I know a few enlisted who married officers but they were outside each others Chenin of command. I have no problem with it as long as it doesn't affect good order and discipline

Response by PO1 Shahida Marmol made Jul 25 at 2015 10:27 AM

PO1 Shahida Marmol — Sat, 25 Jul 2015 10:27:10 -0400

I think they should change the rules about officer/enlisted in other branches. I can see why they shouldn't be allowed in the same branch. Each branch is small and although you may not work for the other, they may know people you work for.

Response by Sgt Kelli Mays made Jul 25 at 2015 12:53 PM

Sgt Kelli Mays — Sat, 25 Jul 2015 12:53:39 -0400

I was enlisted and married an officer...Although we both worked at Wilford Hall, we were not in the same chain of command...he was medical and I was in tip toe alley under admin.....for a few years no one had a problem with it till General Chong got to Wilford Hall medical center...he gave my husband a letter of reprimand and told me to move out...it was the most ridiculous thing ever....I put in for early discharge under the Graham Ruddman act and got out...

We never flaunted our relationship...as a matter of fact most people didn't even know. Except for a few in my office and some in his staff in the ER...we kept it quiet and hush hush...we didn't ride to work together...we didn't meet up in the hospital...during duty hours we kept apart. My CO and commander were ok with it...and the previous Generals in command of Wilford Hall knew and were ok with it too....General Anderson and General Ball...and one more General...can't remember his name...something like Vandenburg or something....
I had gone to school...had two associates degrees and was taking night classes at UTSA...is having a degree or not having a decree enough to set you apart...like some CAST system?

Response by PVT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2015 1:17 PM

PVT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jul 2015 13:17:29 -0400

What if theyre an officer in another branch? Say im army enlisted and theyre navy officer

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2015 9:34 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jul 2015 21:34:04 -0400

The same reason a manager can't date an employee, a teacher a student, a correctional officer a prisoner, a officer those who they command.

It's a conflict of interest regardless of whether or not they are in their "food chain". There is a world of billions of people. Date someone who does not violate military policy.

Response by SFC John Durham made Aug 26 at 2015 5:30 PM

SFC John Durham — Wed, 26 Aug 2015 17:30:41 -0400

Because you then get baby LT's with a compass, and still can use it? That's my best guess

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2016 12:20 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Mar 2016 12:20:47 -0400

Incredibly antiquated regulation born from an ancient caste system. If you don’t know what the caste system is in reference to, please look it up for context. As militaries of the world modernized throughout history, the caste system stayed in place. As a result, fraternization rules of old evolved in to the modern day, Good Order and Discipline spin off which is the lineage to the current fraternization regulation. So if you think about it, it’s more of a social issue than it is something that was birthed into the military construct. Roman officers were forbidden to even have a drink or consider one of their soldiers a friend. Never mind the thought of a woman being in the equation. The social classes of societies had a huge role to play in the current fraternization regulation. It was a social taboo for upper class socialites and royalty that dominated the officer and command structures of most standing militaries to socialize with lower class folks that derived the enlisted ranks of most standing armies. That way of thinking doesn’t hold true today. In a modern world where humans are smarter than in any other time in recorded history and where social change is happening every day to keep up with modernization, I think the military fraternization rules needs to be done away with. At the very least redefined further to take into account the professionalism that folks can exhibit when dating. Punish only those that cannot adhere to good order and discipline and succumb to or offer undue influence stemming from relationships. Separate the Officer and NCO into different units if they are dating and or wanting to get married so this can’t occur. Stop casting a wide net and pushing the easy button when it comes to this issue. It happens every day and has always happened throughout history, even when the caste system was prevalent in the military. We would be naive to think that people will let rules like this stop them from following their heart’s desire. It’s like trying to fight the internet. You can’t stop it. Hell, it’s a known fact now that Thomas Jefferson had a relationship with one of his servants and was more than likely in love with her. This is just one example of the caste system not working even at the highest of levels. The military will always have to deal with this situation and spend countless amounts of time, money, and valuable man-hours adjudicating infractions committed against this rule until it is done away with. It is my belief that the majority of folks in the military hate this rule and don’t believe in its validity given how professional our modern-day military has become. We only follow like sheep or try to follow and adhere to it because of our sense of duty. It’s hard to follow and support such a stupid regulation!

Response by Ares ! made Feb 23 at 2017 1:41 PM

Ares ! — Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:41:21 -0500

what if both of them are married? what are the consequences if they were to be caught?

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made Mar 6 at 2017 4:01 AM

SSgt Jim Gilmore — Mon, 06 Mar 2017 04:01:17 -0500

Officially, you cannot although I have a cousin who dated a captain while enlisted.

Response by SSgt Michael Cox made Mar 8 at 2017 6:16 PM

SSgt Michael Cox — Wed, 08 Mar 2017 18:16:32 -0500

When I was stationed in England one of the Master Sergeants was married to a Major. He was an aircraft maintenance production superintendent and she was the Dental Squadron Commander. No one had a problem with this because she wasn't in his chain of command.

I think that if you can keep the military life and private life completely separate and the person you are dating isn't in your chain of command then it should be fine. I think this should go for enlisted to enlisted also. At the same duty station we had multiple crew chiefs that were married to each other and while they didn't work on the same helicopter they were in the same section.

Response by SPC John Decker made Mar 8 at 2017 6:24 PM

SPC John Decker — Wed, 08 Mar 2017 18:24:56 -0500

If the relationship doesn't work out, then either could affect the others career, whether or not they were in the same command.

Response by SPC Roger Giffen made Mar 8 at 2017 8:10 PM

SPC Roger Giffen — Wed, 08 Mar 2017 20:10:00 -0500

In the mid 70s, we were allowed to date any office that wasn't in a position to further our career or that were in our chain of command.

Response by SFC Patrick Mulhill made Aug 19 at 2017 11:22 AM

SFC Patrick Mulhill — Sat, 19 Aug 2017 11:22:49 -0400

Happens all the time in the National Guard. I know many

Response by SSG Erik McKinster made Aug 19 at 2017 12:19 PM

SSG Erik McKinster — Sat, 19 Aug 2017 12:19:32 -0400

Here's my sob story, or S.O.B. story.....I served in the Corps, went Guard, then Regular Army. I've got some perspective here. While in the Guard, I was a SGT, and had served in a SSG position for a long time. Finally got a spot at BNCOC, did very well, came back to my unit, saw two of my buddies/classmates promoted & right before I got mine, all promotions were frozen. Why?

Turns out our AG (a MG) was banging his assistant (don't know her true title, but they were inseparable) (an SFC). Everyone from the Govoner down to the lowest PVT knew it was happening, but no one spoke of it. How did they get caught?

Turns out his sweetie didn't make the list for MSG, and he fired the whole promotion board and built a new one with the message "maybe y'all will get it right". Low and behold, they did! Imagine that!

Well, it all blew up then, all promotions were frozen. No raise for me.... Still expected to do my job though... Usually without a PSG or PL too, so yeah, there's that. 1SG was pissed I wouldn't re-up too.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2017 3:30 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Aug 2017 15:30:25 -0400

I may be a little old and crusty, but from the beginning of my commission, I was instructed that if you want to be respected as a professional.....act like one. I never developed personal relations that were out of bounds by U.S. Army standards or encouraged them with the junior officers I mentored.
I had a close bond with my First Sergeant who also shared the same philosophy and values.
We discouraged dating between enlisted - NCO and between officers and enlisted because good order and discipline is not derived by "following your feelings" it is accomplished by developing skills and behaviors that win wars.
I know of officers and enlisted personnel who dated, married, and performed well in their military service. It was always an anomaly - never common.
I am retired now. Just a PFC (private forgotten civilian), but I will always remember what an outstanding CSM told me. "Standards Matter - that is why NCOs and Officers to enforce them. If not....then you have the nicest Army that gets ran off the hill."
I miss that man.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2017 4:15 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Aug 2017 16:15:11 -0400

I don't think it is as much an issue in this day and age as it was in days past.

Response by LT Shawn Janak made Aug 19 at 2017 6:40 PM

LT Shawn Janak — Sat, 19 Aug 2017 18:40:49 -0400

I was a mustang officer. When i was an E-4, my girlfriend was an O-2. I was at little creek NAB and she was an admin officer at Norfolk. My command knew and nobody cared. As long as they're not in the same chain of command who cares???!!! Too many people have a stick in their butts. Just mind your business!

Response by SPC Kari Grove Wright made Aug 19 at 2017 8:23 PM

SPC Kari Grove Wright — Sat, 19 Aug 2017 20:23:39 -0400

A spc in my unit was married to a warrant officer. He would come in and talk to the chain of command to get her leave approved after it was denied. Or she was to go to training or something and he'd get it changed. So wrong!

Response by 1SG Bill Schrier made Aug 19 at 2017 8:47 PM

1SG Bill Schrier — Sat, 19 Aug 2017 20:47:04 -0400

Good order and discipline and while this sounds like an old school speak, Discipline is still the order of the day.

Response by SPC Sabrina Greer made Aug 19 at 2017 11:16 PM

SPC Sabrina Greer — Sat, 19 Aug 2017 23:16:46 -0400

When my husband and I were both in the military, we were in the same brigade but couldn't be in the same battalion at the same time due to me being a topographical engineer and him being a combat engineer. Now, had I stayed in the military and since he changed engineer fields to the field I was in, we would not have been able to be in the same unit at the same time because I would have out ranked him by time in service. He continued serving for several more years until he was put out on the downsizing of the Army two years ago just over his 16 year mark. Now we work together at the same school and there is not a conflict of interest because I am in the teaching field while he is in the IT department. There should never be a time when husband and wife should be in the same unit at the same time because it will cause problems at home and at work. Had two 1SGs causing strife on the installation level because the male was caught sleeping with a soldier in the barracks and since the wife was the 1SG of the company I was in, when she was home the sister unit was dragged into work for stupid reasons and when he was home, our unit was dragged into work for stupid reasons. Reasons such as there was a piece of sand on the desk that was blown in from a dust storm. The dust was blown in over the weekend and staff duty had opened the door for the 1SG.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2017 12:45 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Aug 2017 00:45:20 -0400

Wait.....this isn't allowed?? Since when?1 :(

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2017 3:33 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Aug 2017 03:33:01 -0400

I'm wondering where this is a problem. Two friends of mine are an Army SGT and a Marine 1stLt (my former OIC); both of whom are a married couple. Another Staff NCO i know is a Marine SSgt who is married to an Air Force Maj. Is this only a problem if it's an intraservice relationship? It seems interservice marriages aren't causing any outrage.

Response by MAJ Kevin Miller made Aug 20 at 2017 8:53 AM

MAJ Kevin Miller — Sun, 20 Aug 2017 08:53:45 -0400

Because relationships are complicated, life is complicated, and the military is structured for a reason. Trying to add another complication into that structure has potential to weaken it. Individuals don't know and can't control where it will go. Had my wife been enlisted when I was a Jr NCO I probably would not have gone to OCS. It is two different worlds that would be difficult to meld within the same household.

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Aug 20 at 2017 10:34 AM

SSgt Boyd Herrst — Sun, 20 Aug 2017 10:34:35 -0400

And God blew the both of you and that 22 years and may you have many more years together !

Response by SFC John Davis made Aug 20 at 2017 11:39 AM

SFC John Davis — Sun, 20 Aug 2017 11:39:15 -0400

I dated two officers, a 1st LT, and a Cpt. We had a blast, and I saluted them both in the morning...

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Aug 20 at 2017 11:58 AM

SSgt Boyd Herrst — Sun, 20 Aug 2017 11:58:31 -0400

I suppose it's even possible when the two mates are not even in the same command .. that a view of impropriety appears when a junior troop gets certain faves like being able to get appointed for certain positions not in line with their pay grade because their Commander may by chance know the spouse's superior and favors the spouse out of courtesy to the other's Cmdr. It may not come out until later when s'body in the convenient position put's pieces of the puzzle together and blabbers it around .. and they really don't know if the junior spouse got their position on their own merit.. it's the appearance of impropriety and that's what some people go on w/o checking facts .. they're in too much of a hurry to
Make a comment.
A sitrep I know of was not of enlisted/ officer relationship but of a SSG. And a junior enlisted in another service. This SSG worked hard to make sure that they were not seen together unless one of them was in civilian attire.. it worked pretty good for a while.. Apparently S/one (could have been a Senior NCO or officer or even a Civilian gov't employee).
Had seen one or the other at different times wearing uniform.. and sees both together at some place of business and
Engaging in pda .. that person is in a high enough position to make a mountain out of an ant hill .. but for some reason doesn't engage their brain to dissect e'thing.. all they know is at one time they seen the same SSG. In Uniform and another time seen the same Specialist In uniform, now sees the two together having a pda moment and determines it's inappropriate whether or not they are in different branches of the Military.. they just have their brain in one gear.. or between two and are shifting.. So that person who thinks they are dong the right thing finds the duty section where the SSG is assigned and then finds the section the specialist is assigned and gets the bee hives going in both places.. The SSG and Specialist decide on their own to find a totally new locale to meet but the command sections are already aware due to diligence of a certain Sr. NCO, OFC, or GS or high enough WG employee.. So what to do.. The SSG's people talk to him
and find a Place to deploy him to.. for about 5 months.. the Specialist is persuaded to go Reserve back in her home State of Ohio.. and she is processed
Quickly before he comes back and one more item.. Not to communicate with said SSG. Within Tidewater region.. (should she decide to hang around.. her people though that putting her in Reserves or the Guard had they done so, they can still effect some kind of disciplinary action.. although will not think about what they could do since she is no longer active or in their command.. could have sent her to Alaska.. the SSG and her were just good friends, sure a little pda occasionally.. that happens.. his comrades didn't know about her until the Un-named person got stuff rolling.. There was no question of retribution .. that could have not-nice consequences... even against a.civilian gov't employee. The SSG had people in high places in his corner also.. all the way to some General officers in the Command he was a member of and the Command where he'd been before.. that was brought up too.. didn't even think on it..
Got a good break .. went to Europe Command, sure some wet weather, not so
Nice weather, a little rain never hurt anybody.. Returned after an expenses paid vacay.. hey at least it wasn't to a disciplinary barracks at Lowery AFB.. or down the road to the Navy disciplinary Bks... or across base to motivation bks at Langley..

Response by MSG John Blythe made Aug 20 at 2017 1:35 PM

MSG John Blythe — Sun, 20 Aug 2017 13:35:32 -0400

I was married to a Captain when I was a Sargent we were in the same unit. It was good until My career was going places and she was stalled.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2017 3:20 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Aug 2017 15:20:16 -0400

What happenes if you've already been married you got married when both service memebers were both SPC's and one gets out of the Army and decides to become a Commissioned Officer?

Response by PVT Mark Zehner made Aug 20 at 2017 11:38 PM

PVT Mark Zehner — Sun, 20 Aug 2017 23:38:15 -0400

I can only state from the position that I was in but that was thirty years ago! The Army back then was so interchangeable that officers can find themselves being transferred very quickly and even though males and females were segregated back then there was too great of a chance of it being seen as improper

Response by LCDR Robert Turcic made Aug 20 at 2017 11:45 PM

LCDR Robert Turcic — Sun, 20 Aug 2017 23:45:48 -0400

I've been serving 27 years now, 12 of those were as prior Enlisted. It does essentially boil down to good order and discipline. Of course where there are two married Enlisted and one is commissioned during their career, then of course it's a no-brainer and fine. Keeping good and discipline by drawing a boundary line of unduly familiar relationship is essential because while some couples may not abuse or take advantage of the system, others may on the contrary. I wish we could easily say that it is not our business to tell anyone with whom they may have feelings or that it is forbidden, but professional decorum and discipline is what sets us apart from most other country's service members. Everyone is entitled to respect and dignity too. Also, this separation does save a lot of headache, not only for the Chain of Command, but also the JAG, even if both members are not in each other's Chain of Command. One could easily point out, for example, that a junior female Enlisted could attempt to "clean house" with a spouse who may be a mid-grade/field grade Officer and feel a sense of monetary entitlement in a divorce, conspiracy to commit therof, etc. people can be spiteful towards each other, especially in a divorce where children and financials are involved, sending the JAG and UCMJ on an unnecessary course, hence one of the reasons a service's legal office does not handle divorce litigation for any service member, but provide some form of divorce advice. This area would likely prove too much for the JAG because it is the most practiced case in the US. So, from a big picture take away, this can be seen as protection for both Enlisted and Officers. I've seen how messy it can be for dual military spouses going through divorce. I don't think I could imagine dual military, dual accession routes, and a disparate difference in pay grade going forward successfully.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2017 9:47 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Aug 2017 09:47:30 -0400

I have literally never been in a unit where officers were banging E-4's. So if you don't know about it people probably think you're too stuffy to let you know what really goes on in the unit LOL. so if you don't know about it people probably think you're too stuffy to let you know what really goes on in the unit LOL

Response by COL John Roggow made Aug 21 at 2017 2:30 PM

COL John Roggow — Mon, 21 Aug 2017 14:30:55 -0400

This has only been policy since 3/1/2000. I (O6) met my wife (E7), both retired, in 1997. At the time I was an O5 and she was an E6 in different Reserve Divisions. It was totally legal until a the new policy went into effect. In MAR 1999 anyone in a relationship was given three choices. 1. Get out, 2. Break up, 3. Get married. I was a Bde Cdr and received a number of calls from the ADC. We were married in Feb 2000, best thing that ever happened. Will never believe our relationship was anything but good for the Army. We understood each other's responsibilities and were able to provide advice from a different perspective

Response by SGM Robin Johnson made Aug 21 at 2017 3:38 PM

SGM Robin Johnson — Mon, 21 Aug 2017 15:38:16 -0400

The policy in the Army USED to be that enlisted and officers (or junior and senior of either) could date as long as it didn't impact "good order and discipline" in the unit. This was generally interpreted to mean not only not in the chain of command or NCO support chain, but usually not in the same unit. However, after some cases that gained national attention, DOD standardized the regulations regarding relationships across the services, and they didn't trust anyone's discretion on determining what was appropriate any longer. So... unless you were married before the relationship became "forbidden", officers have to stay on the wrong side of the tracks now.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2017 6:18 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Aug 2017 18:18:54 -0400

The Navy goes so far as to forbid officer enlisted relationships regardless of the branch or country of the individuals concerned.

Response by SrA Travis Adams made Aug 21 at 2017 6:32 PM

SrA Travis Adams — Mon, 21 Aug 2017 18:32:24 -0400

Who's to say that down the line the officer won't be crossed trained or promoted to a joint command position where they are needed. This could put the person above the enlisted, maybe not directly but they could still let emotions effect operations. That could possibly send less qualified people down range. Cross service marriages may work but everything is a joint operation anymore including bases, camps, and forts.

Response by LTC Charles T Dalbec made Aug 21 at 2017 7:36 PM

LTC Charles T Dalbec — Mon, 21 Aug 2017 19:36:32 -0400

Good order and discipline is what we all agree with!! Hooah??

Response by SGT Doug Turner made Aug 21 at 2017 8:55 PM

SGT Doug Turner — Mon, 21 Aug 2017 20:55:14 -0400

I will say this.... nothing gets an O-1/O-2 feeling frisky lime an NCO she knows she's not allowed to be with.... like fishing with dynamite. I'm sure it works the same way with male officers and female Enlisted.

Response by LTJG Richard Bruce made Aug 21 at 2017 9:29 PM

LTJG Richard Bruce — Mon, 21 Aug 2017 21:29:27 -0400

An officer/enlisted marriage complicates their social lives and those around them.

1. On base housing is assigned to the higher ranked spouse. How do other NCO/PO's feel when their peer lives much better due to their spouse's rank?
2. Officer's clubs must accept NCO/PO's as spouses. How do the other officers feel trying to relax when NCO/PO's are around?
3. Pillow talk. Much is said at home that should not be said. NCO/PO's spouses learn things that no other NCO/PO's know. This puts them at an advantage.
4. Rank has its privilege. NCO/PO's spouses receive advantages due to their spouse's rank. This builds resentment.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2017 1:32 AM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Aug 2017 01:32:42 -0400

Holy fucking typos! Proof read your stuff before you post it to the world to sed

Response by SGT Angelica Mauro made Aug 22 at 2017 4:01 AM

SGT Angelica Mauro — Tue, 22 Aug 2017 04:01:50 -0400

Blame the Navy. When we went to across the board regs for all branches - this practice was adopted. Guess life on a ship is different. Shouldn't effect the soldiers imo.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2017 12:40 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Aug 2017 12:40:43 -0400

I think you should be able to date, enlisted officer, if you're not in the same command!

Response by SGT Christopher Lachcik made Aug 22 at 2017 1:51 PM

SGT Christopher Lachcik — Tue, 22 Aug 2017 13:51:49 -0400

Because they can't. Why question regulations?

Response by SCPO Rick Hunter made Aug 22 at 2017 4:15 PM

SCPO Rick Hunter — Tue, 22 Aug 2017 16:15:36 -0400

I started Active Duty 1/74. Enlisted/officer fraternasation wasn't okay then and it shouldn't be now

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2017 5:28 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Aug 2017 17:28:26 -0400

Haha they do it anyways.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2017 8:05 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Aug 2017 20:05:54 -0400

Simple answer? What may seem like no problem now could become one later if one is transferred into the other's unit. Another possibility is that the officer could possibly influence the leadership in the enlisted soldier's unit. Whether either of these actually happen does not matter as long as it is a PERCEIVED possibility.

My advice: If you are in a situation where an enlisted service members and an officer begin a relationship, seriously consider having the enlisted soldier commission as an officer. You will eventually get found out. Might as well make the relationship legal under military law before someone's career gets ended.

Response by MAJ Mark Anderson made Aug 23 at 2017 12:16 AM

MAJ Mark Anderson — Wed, 23 Aug 2017 00:16:50 -0400

If there is a catastropic event the officer could be the senior surviving officer and therefore in command. The fact that they begin in different commands does not change how the base support operations work.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Aug 31 at 2017 11:02 AM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Thu, 31 Aug 2017 11:02:07 -0400

It's prohibited to facilitate good order and discipline. An officer engaging in a personal relationship with an enlisted member creates a potential conflict of interest and the perception on impropriety. I assume this applies to heterosexual and homosexual relationships in today's military. The restriction is based on the potential requirement for the officer to order the enlisted person into a situation where they are at risk of injury or death and the potential hesitation or refusal on the part of the officer to do so. Attendant to that is the perception and reality of favoritism for the "Commander's girl friend" in all types of official situations ranging from promotion to assignment to something as simple as granting leave.

I would always recommend against such relationships. They are replete with opportunities for problems and heart break. A passionate relationship gone bad could turn into a he-said-she-said sexual assault case quickly. One complaint from a subordinate, civilian employee, or ex-spouse could put a Commander in the position of having to take action--normally against the officer. Not to mention the emotional toll of keeping an otherwise loving relationship secret possibly requiring lying and deception. The enlisted-officer romantic relationship violates a basic leadership principle: never screw your people figuratively or literally. It is a quick way for a Commander to get relieved.

This is not to say it never happens. I have an acquaintance who was an Air Force pilot, a Captain, who was married to an Air Force air traffic controller, a SSgt. They kept their relationship secret until the wedding announcements. Neither his nor her commander objected to the wedding and as far as I know they lived "happily ever after." This probably happens more often than I realize. It is probably carried off successfully because nobody complained to the chain of command.

Note: The Guard and Reserve have an exception to these rules. If enlisted and officer personnel meet and conduct a relationship while outside of their military duties, then it's okay. They just can't further that relationship while under jurisdiction of the UCMJ.

Response by PO1 James Booker made Jan 2 at 2018 4:06 PM

PO1 James Booker — Tue, 02 Jan 2018 16:06:57 -0500

What's the reg regarding enlisted(male) sleeping with(well...not much rest though)the base CO's wife? Asking for a friend...

Response by SGT Jamarl Jones made Feb 26 at 2018 11:09 PM

SGT Jamarl Jones — Mon, 26 Feb 2018 23:09:53 -0500

The perception of partiality in the ranks is the main reason.

Technically, every enlisted soldier is the subordinate of every officer, even if they are in completely different chains of command. Of course, this is also true of NCO > Junior Enlisted relationships, and even a relationship between a Corporal and a Sergeant.

Response by Victoria Pace made Apr 22 at 2018 11:49 AM

Victoria Pace — Sun, 22 Apr 2018 11:49:20 -0400

What if the two get married before the officer commissioned? Like, while the officer is still in school and wearing a cadet rank.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Jun 22 at 2018 3:25 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 15:25:55 -0400

Back in 1986 at Fort Sill there was a Young Major dating an E-3 Dental Tech. To be fair she was a very attractive young women, but what was the perception. Neither one worked for the other, but the perception was her O-4 was getting her out of details and crappy assignments. Real or not there was that perception. Some Senior Person guided the O-4 into making a break as the story goes.

Response by CPT William Jones made Aug 5 at 2019 5:14 PM

CPT William Jones — Mon, 05 Aug 2019 17:14:12 -0400

I was an officer a long time ago when female soldiers were called wACSit was a small problem mostly due to numbers opportunity. Now there are lots of both sexes everywhere. Dating/marrying in the civilian world occurs often. However in the military the end job is to cause death to the enemy. Relationships could cause conflicts in a war zone and even friction in relationships of types or found in the civilian world. It could cause real problems out near the point of the spear. Keeping couples outside common chain of command could cause their own hardships. Probably should be allowed but what’s to be done if relation ships starts effecting their job performance

Response by SPC John Decker made Jul 4 at 2020 7:33 PM

SPC John Decker — Sat, 04 Jul 2020 19:33:27 -0400

Emotional attachment but not married and one gets orders. The ability to maintain a long distance relationship and trust the other person. Military focus might be diminished.

Response by SSG Ralph Watkins made Jul 5 at 2021 9:01 AM

SSG Ralph Watkins — Mon, 05 Jul 2021 09:01:57 -0400

Relationships still happen. Seen it a number of times over the years. They are kept on the down-low or the command just overlooks it if they find out. Most couples kept their relationship secret & then took leave at the same time. They then came back from leave married to each other. The command just made sure to keep the enlisted out of the officer's change of command. One couple that was outed beforehand was being processed out, got married, & then still got kicked out. Back in the day, many gays & lesbians also married in order to protect themselves. Once people were married, they were fairly safe from military rules.