Why did the Army switch uniforms?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Oct 2016 15:28:11 -0400

So I was looking at my OCP Uniform the other day and I started to think to myself... If I can get my badges, rank, and nametapes sewed on my uniform, what was the point of switching from the BDU'S? One of the many reasons the ACU'S were brought into existence was to save Soldiers money by not having to sew everything on..fast forward 10 years and you can sew anything on and it's even more expensive now then it was then. I can go on about the buttons and how OCP looks like a different color woodland pattern but wanted to pose this question for everyone. Thoughts?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 14 at 2016 3:34 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Oct 2016 15:34:42 -0400

Personally, I really do think someone somewhere in the Army is getting some nice kickback for this.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Oct 14 at 2016 4:00 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Fri, 14 Oct 2016 16:00:25 -0400

The BDU really was an "outdated" pattern for where we fought (in the previous few conflicts), just like the greens were outdated when we replaced them. Like everything else, our uniforms needed to evolve with the times. The USMC chose to go with the MARPAT ("summer" and "winter" patterns). The Army went the ACU route ("universal"). The idea of a universal pattern makes A LOT of sense, but it wasn't pragmatic.. or the ACU just wasn't the right pattern (or a combination of the two). The OCP is MUCH better / closer to that idea.

As for the sewing on etc, they realized there were other issues with the ACU and adjusted it with the most recent change.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 14 at 2016 4:12 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Oct 2016 16:12:37 -0400

OCP, as far as the cut of the uniform, is a better uniform to wear with body armor (and the combat shirt is an improvement over that). I don't understand why the Army removed the option to sew badges on in the first place, as the only thing soldiers frequently replace in garrison was their unit patch. As far as the color, it blends into a broader range of environments than the BDUs did without making the universal claim that ACUs failed at. The other uniform requirement the Army is working is a jungle pattern (most likely with be Crye Precsion's jungle colors in the Army's Scorpion 2 pattern just like they did with Multi-Cam).

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 14 at 2016 4:30 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Oct 2016 16:30:30 -0400

Digital pattern ACU did not work in the Afghan terrain.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 14 at 2016 5:58 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Oct 2016 17:58:32 -0400

Somebody behind a desk got bored.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Oct 14 at 2016 6:47 PM

SSG Trevor S. — Fri, 14 Oct 2016 18:47:37 -0400

A retired COL or General needed an after military income so we got ACU's. We realized the ACU's sucked, but if we went back to BDU's we would be basically admitting ACUs were a bad idea so we handed off the money train to another retired COL or General to get a marginally better uniform. *I'm just guessing here.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Oct 15 at 2016 3:09 AM

SMSgt Lawrence McCarter — Sat, 15 Oct 2016 03:09:49 -0400

i never felt sewing things on camo uniforms was a big problem, USAF still does., Army used to. Once its done i think its a lot easier than having to place insignia etc every time You wear the uniform.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Oct 15 at 2016 3:11 AM

SMSgt Lawrence McCarter — Sat, 15 Oct 2016 03:11:19 -0400

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 15 at 2016 8:10 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Oct 2016 08:10:36 -0400

It was a money move. Congress wanted a uniform that was best in all environments to save from theater-specific uniforms. ACU tested as the best pattern across theaters (not the best in any single one, but best overall).

Clearly not good rationale there. ...unless of course a Soldier is sleeping under a truck in a concrete Garrison motor pool- then the ACUs could hide them.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 15 at 2016 9:07 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Oct 2016 09:07:21 -0400

I saved $50 by not sewing badges on my newest uniforms. My boss doesn't care so I don't wear them.

Response by SFC George Smith made Oct 15 at 2016 11:56 AM

SFC George Smith — Sat, 15 Oct 2016 11:56:23 -0400

to support the rag Makers who are supporting the Congress Critters and The Commanders in the nose Bleed Sections...

Response by MAJ Keira Brennan made Oct 16 at 2016 3:13 AM

MAJ Keira Brennan — Sun, 16 Oct 2016 03:13:37 -0400

SFC Hobbs, I served on both AD and Res from 1987 - 2012. I blame Rumsfeld and GEN Schoomaker for the uniform Fup. Rumsfeld. He LOVED that SoF crap. EVERYONE was going to get a CCO and PEQ2. Even in the OEF hinterlands. And the ACUs were the WORST UNIFORM I wore - or could have imagined. Then everyone HAD to be SoF STEALTH and not wear name tapes. The were the ultimate Hey - look over there! (I didn't mind the neoprene pads). I can remember when the JCS mandated that everyone was to wear the BDUs. That lasted a long time. Then of course the Marines got SMART with two multi-cams. The Aquaflage. Only our comrades-in-arms in the USCG didn't get suckered. I am going to by the BDUs 2.0 because I fall out for flag planting detail at Ft. Logan National Cemetery on Memorial day. I guess I got to sew everything on. BTW - I remember coming home from KFOR authorized to wear the color US Flag with BDUs. Then it was khaki boots with BDUs. I do have Mama's Bates Jump Boots somewhere. Good topic!!!!!

Response by 1SG Ronald Rieck made Oct 17 at 2016 4:10 PM

1SG Ronald Rieck — Mon, 17 Oct 2016 16:10:52 -0400

Total pork spending. The BDU's/ACU were fine...No wonder our defense budget is so bloated.

Response by SPC Glenn Lovell made Oct 17 at 2016 11:16 PM

SPC Glenn Lovell — Mon, 17 Oct 2016 23:16:53 -0400

I agree, but the drive to change was initiated because too many countries who weren't our allies were using the BDU design and that could be problematic. Not having a visual distinction in the uniforms could cause a lot of casualties from soldiers misidentifying enemies as friendlies. Aside from that, I never thought it was expensive to get the uniforms tapes and patches sewn on considering that the cost was minor compared to your month's pay. Also take into account that the Army gave us an annual clothing allowance to replace and maintain our uniforms. Too many soldiers treated that like free money to take to the bar.

Ultimately, from my experience I've seen too many soldiers who didn't understand that they needed to budget their money: haircuts, supplies for their barracks room, toiletries, uniform maintenance... All of that stuff comes first, before they go out and buy stereos, tvs, cars, booze, tattoos, etc. That applied to married soldiers too. I knew more than a few who did the fun stuff first, and the responsible stuff last.

Response by SSG John Jensen made Oct 18 at 2016 1:43 AM

SSG John Jensen — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 01:43:06 -0400

when my dad enlisted in '58 (he had a really low number) in basic they were issued brown rough-out boots, and in basic they used lighter fluid (I think) to burn off the rough-out, then dyed the boots black, and then spit shined them. So how long will it be before somebody discovers that if they burn off the rough-out that they can polish the boots, and then dye the boots black so that they can make the boots look even better?

I arrived for fatigues, was issued jungle cammies for the 82d, then the switch to BDUs and retired after the switch to ACUs.
After I got back from Iraq, I bought a sewing machine for all of the my new patches for my BDUs, and occasionally brought in the sewing machine on drill to help the other guys in the unit with their uniforms FOR FREE!!

Response by COL Dave Sims made Oct 18 at 2016 7:42 AM

COL Dave Sims — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 07:42:29 -0400

Forget the uniforms ...think about the hats that have proliferated - both Class A, Dress and fatigue. Someone should write a history especially about fatigue hats. I can't think how many times we changed hats over my 30 year career. My least favorite was the pseudo- baseball hat of the Viet Nam era. You could never get it to look right. My favorite of all time is the old Army campaign hat. The one shown is from 1904 - and was worn by an Ordnance officer in the 10th Cavalry.

Response by SSG Steve Finlan made Oct 18 at 2016 8:05 AM

SSG Steve Finlan — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 08:05:10 -0400

1 portion Good Idea Fairy, 2-5 portions O4 and O5 bucking for that next rank, baste with one O6 looking to make One Star, mix liberally with three or four contractors and a backdoor deal or two, season with budget dollar battles for the next fiscal year. Frappe thoroughly in the Government Contracts blender. Pour into individual glasses, and force-feed to the troops. Voila. New uniforms.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2016 8:51 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 08:51:57 -0400

Its optional to sew on tapes and badges. If PV2 Snuffy can only afford one set of tapes and tapes and transfers it from one uniform to another, he's in compliance.

But when he becomes SFC Snuffy and decides its easier and more professional looking to sew on the badges and tapes, so be it. Those items rarely change.

Personally, I would like to see the return of full color shoulder sleeve insigna on the OCP when in garrison and the wearing on the collar of rank and officer branch insignia as it was done on the BDU.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2016 9:28 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 09:28:54 -0400

BDUs and DCUs actually helped in camouflaging soldiers in combat. ACUs made soldiers sticking out like a sore thumb the opposite of camouflaging. OCPs is the Army fixing a big screw up that are ACUs.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Oct 18 at 2016 9:43 AM

SGT Dave Tracy — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 09:43:09 -0400

Last month a buddy at my unit asked the same thing. My answer to him (flippant to be sure): "Because it was Tuesday".

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Oct 18 at 2016 9:59 AM

1SG Dennis Hicks — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 09:59:36 -0400

What is old is now new, my attic looks like an Army surplus store between the changes in Utility and Dress uniforms, not counting gear. Between the good idea fairy and obvious contractor kickback and corruption this is the business as usual Army model. Somewhere in a basement office in the Pentagon the next version of Ghee wiz uniform, weapons system and training module is being created and planned for roll out. I am still waiting for my Predator invisible uniform with pulse cannon :) It will arrive just in time to bury me in it.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2016 10:23 AM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 10:23:45 -0400

I have no experience of how the past was, but, as a young soldier coming up in today's army, I understand where you are coming from, but I do have to say, the sewn look of the ACU looks much more professional. I can clearly tell a soldier who does not care about their appearance much more clearly from someone who has taken the time and effort to have their uniform sewn on.

Response by SFC Derrick Graves made Oct 18 at 2016 10:36 AM

SFC Derrick Graves — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 10:36:21 -0400

This was a very good question posed by the author. After serving over twenty years in the Army (1980-2000) I went through at least three version changes of the utility, dress, and PT uniform. I came to the conclusion that these changes were designed and incorporated for a variety of reasons based on the mindset of senior leadership at the time: good order & morale, tactical/technical ability, historical prominence, and public image. These progressive changes will continue to occur as the Army and it's leadership evolve into the future!

Response by SSG Wayne Wood made Oct 18 at 2016 10:39 AM

SSG Wayne Wood — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 10:39:31 -0400

I came in when we were wearing fatigues - in the Airborne we had rip-stop cammies and alternated uniforms when not in the field. I wasn't impressed with the BDUs when they first came out but as they made tweaks to the cut of the uniform design it was better (still hated losing the distinction of our own cammies). But I became a true believer one day in 1983 when I watched my unit literally "disappear" into a woodline after crossing the red clay cut of the All American PZ/LZ on Bragg one day. When the ACU came out and I saw guys wearing them in an airport (!!!???) I was skeptical of their value. Talking to guys still in I found out I was right. I never wore the desert pattern BDUs as we were interested in more tropical climes when I was in (about died from heat in Grenada wearing the heavy early uniform), so I can't vouch for their effectiveness but to anyone who's travelled even across the Continental US it ought to be obvious "one size doesn't fit all." To try and have a "universal" pattern may sound penny wise but it's pound foolish.

I always thought with the expense of the BDU (at twice the cost of our old fatigues) we should have stayed with the old fatigues (and black boots) for garrison - starched fatigues and spit-shined boots in the morning always made me feel sharp and proud - with the BDUs for field duty. Different camo patterns for various environments as needed just makes sense to me. We used to keep that stuff in CIF for issue if we deployed somewhere it was necessary.

But what do I know? I'm just an old FOG...

I do miss sewed on unit patches on the dress uniform - the current combat action badges and ranger and SF badges makes the dress uniform look crowded to me and what outfit is the guy with anyway? I was always proud to wear my 82nd "Double A's" on both shoulders and even when I was with 3rd AD in Germany wore the triangle proudly. But I guess that's for another topic.

Response by SSG Steven Smith made Oct 18 at 2016 10:52 AM

SSG Steven Smith — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 10:52:05 -0400

While in formation with the Velcro, we would brush each other and stick together. The corners of the badges would curl. Some people did not put them on straight. The Velcro began getting ratty looking after too many washing. I use to number my uniforms with a marker to keep top and bottoms together so they would fade evenly, but the tabs did not fade because the were not washed, giving them an odd look after awhile

Response by LTC Russ Smith made Oct 18 at 2016 10:58 AM

LTC Russ Smith — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 10:58:43 -0400

The worst decision was going to the mall cop uniform. Go to the WWII Korea era khaki class B, and brown shoe "pinks and greens." The troops, in a survey, overwhelmingly choose those uniforms. The colonels and generals on the uniform board at the time were 11th ACR. They ignored the troops completely. I am convinced that the uniform board is made up of men who wore leisure suits in the seventies.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Oct 18 at 2016 11:00 AM

SrA Edward Vong — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 11:00:38 -0400

OCP works, that's all I can think of. I believe ACUs were seen as pretty but not as practical. Those that have been in combat environments can probably answer better than I can.

Response by MSG Mamerto Perez made Oct 18 at 2016 11:07 AM

MSG Mamerto Perez — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 11:07:17 -0400

This changing of uniforms is just like changing underwear

Response by SGT Michael Niese made Oct 18 at 2016 2:55 PM

SGT Michael Niese — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 14:55:31 -0400

My $.02, the Military should have gone for terrain specific uniforms on hand.
Shipping to the "sandbox"? Desert Pattern,
Urban area? ACU.
Jungle/ Forest area, BDU.

Response by SSG Walter Corretjer made Oct 18 at 2016 6:32 PM

SSG Walter Corretjer — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 18:32:09 -0400

I do believe you are totally out of site.To begin with,the ACU was a complete mess.A mistaken camuflage,an extremely erroneus velcro usage,that besides been extremely horrenduos,makes you to be an easy target point,due to high noise it produce when anything hits it,during the day,an much more at night.
Besides all of the aforemention incapacities,this uniform is awful from the estetic point of view.You mentioned your problem of disk,in order to sewn the new one,and that is precisly what makes it better.If you think that spending a cuple of dollars is too much for you,then you should not be in the Army.We the past soldiers used to do it,without any complains on our part.No one would have never thougt,that small expense would make you poorer in any way.

Response by SSG Walter Corretjer made Oct 18 at 2016 6:44 PM

SSG Walter Corretjer — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 18:44:29 -0400

SFC Hoobs,don't be so stingy.

Response by SFC Thomas Holcomb made Oct 18 at 2016 7:17 PM

SFC Thomas Holcomb — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 19:17:55 -0400

It all goes in a circle. Wait till the plan green slant pockets come back.

Response by SPC Roger Giffen made Oct 18 at 2016 7:28 PM

SPC Roger Giffen — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 19:28:47 -0400

I was happy with OD green from back in my day (makes me sound old)

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2016 9:56 PM

ENS Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 21:56:50 -0400

Soldiers had too much money and they wanted them spending their uniform allowances and then some on new uniforms. ;)

Response by SFC Fernando Campos made Oct 18 at 2016 10:53 PM

SFC Fernando Campos — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 22:53:59 -0400

It's always been, and will always be, a money move, big money. Those making the decision only line their pockets, sooner or later when they get out. I personally opt for the Tiger Stripes.

Response by SPC Byron Skinner made Oct 18 at 2016 11:06 PM

SPC Byron Skinner — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 23:06:40 -0400

Sp4 Byron Skinner. Its all fashion, to me the most practical uniform in modern times was the Vietnam era light weight jungle fatigue. No starch, just a simple coat lose fitting pants with plenty of pockets, the lose fitting was very welcome that after a night patrol you licked up some leeches looking for a ride and a snack. A leech on one testicles is not a good way to start the day. Some idiot officers who never went to the field and spent 36 hours on a sweep mission never used the lower pockets on the blouse, that was where we kept out snack items and small can's of C's to eat while we had smoke breaks. The same bird brains over the past decade spent over $2 billion dollars to find the right camouflage pattern just to return to the one they started with. Personally I think the camouflage in any pattern looks silly looks rather silly. The evidence that camouflage uniform make the soldier any less recognizable in the filed has no supporting evidence. The Velcro is noisy and pulling off a patch is just saying to the enemy: "I'm over here… " But its sexy and hey we need something for the over 1,000 flag officers to. As a sailor said a while back about the Navy's Blueberry Camouflage, it doesn't conceal anybody except the guy who feel overboard. Then it does a great job.

Response by PV2 Glen Lewis made Oct 19 at 2016 2:44 AM

PV2 Glen Lewis — Wed, 19 Oct 2016 02:44:04 -0400

The fewer patches you have on the uniform the more effective the camouflage scheme. Go back the rank pins, the and branch of service patches and call a wrap. You can have all that other display on your dress uniforms and it doesn't compromise the effectiveness of uniform's intent. If you're worried about the cost of sewing learn how to do it yourself.

Response by SGT Stuart Griffin made Oct 19 at 2016 8:38 AM

SGT Stuart Griffin — Wed, 19 Oct 2016 08:38:39 -0400

I personally think the new uniform looks sloppy, baggy, and just simply unprofessional. Then again, I was in the era of press and starch BDUs, lol.

Response by SGT David Petree made Oct 19 at 2016 12:40 PM

SGT David Petree — Wed, 19 Oct 2016 12:40:10 -0400

the uniforms are tacky looking. ACU, OCP. with there Velcro patch placement. just horrible. saw on`s are great for long term mountings, of name, rank,& unit. Velcro is good for when they have to be removed in a combat theater . but the name of the game is camouflage !!! good or bad. the real cost is in having to change types of uniforms so many times in the last 10 years !! sewing on patches on is not as much as having to buy the uniform each and every time they change camo!!!

Response by MAJ James Woods made Oct 19 at 2016 4:32 PM

MAJ James Woods — Wed, 19 Oct 2016 16:32:35 -0400

Between the Senior military leaders at the Pentagon and select Congressmen, someone was getting a nice payday with all the changes to the combat uniform, headgear, dress uniform, and PTs. We thought the same about Velcro tags and no more sewing until you saw how much it cost for one patch. At least, I could do my own sewing. ACUs failed both noise discipline and durability. There's no such thing as one uniform for every environment.

Response by PV2 Glen Lewis made Oct 27 at 2016 2:07 PM

PV2 Glen Lewis — Thu, 27 Oct 2016 14:07:39 -0400

I think all the patches disrupt the scheme blending into the terrain. I don't know about the cost since I'm not in anymore but I doubt if they even considered that when it comes to y'all having to buy them. The one thing that bothers me over the changes I've heard and seen is that damned beret. I don't know how everybody wears that thing. Put one on back in the seventies; the most uncomfortable piece of headgear I've ever worn in my entire life. Special forces must have used them to see if their people could withstand torture!

Response by COL Dave Sims made Nov 6 at 2016 12:59 PM

COL Dave Sims — Sun, 06 Nov 2016 12:59:59 -0500

Okay - I am definitely old school. All good soldiers want to look like peacocks...that's what Class A, Class B and Dress Uniforms are for. Out in the field all you need is your last name and rank stenciled on your utilities.... pick your color. Green for the forest , brown for the desert, cammies for the jungle. One piece, two piece- you pick. New assignment - burn them ! Am I wrong here ?

Response by SP5 Bob Rudolph made May 17 at 2017 11:54 AM

SP5 Bob Rudolph — Wed, 17 May 2017 11:54:27 -0400

So what do you think? The Sergeant Major of the Army, Dan Dailey, wants to make the Army vintage again. Daley is leading an effort to resurrect arguably the Army's most iconic uniform: the classic WWII era “Pink and Greens.”

Response by SSG Walter Corretjer made May 18 at 2017 11:23 PM

SSG Walter Corretjer — Thu, 18 May 2017 23:23:59 -0400

I'am with you 300% Hurts.We shoud have some uniiform in the middle,between the Formal Blue and a new Class A and a light duty and office work class B.
This could just be, like the Marines have.

Response by SFC Charles Kauffman made Aug 9 at 2017 8:39 PM

SFC Charles Kauffman — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 20:39:34 -0400

The ACU turned out to be a useless camouflage pattern. About the only place they blended in was in a gravel parking lot, which proves that they were most likely designed by a REMF.

The multi-cam is more effective in Afghanistan, but 3-color DCU worked well in Iraq.

Most of the guys on my ODA had our wives send us our old BDU's in Afghanistan, because that's what the ANA was wearing at the time, and ACU's made us sniper bait.

I have no frigging idea what was behind the chocolate chip suit in Desert Storm.

Response by SPC Nathan Whitcomb made Aug 10 at 2017 9:43 PM

SPC Nathan Whitcomb — Thu, 10 Aug 2017 21:43:29 -0400

So we blend in with somthing other than a gravel parking lot or a poorly upholstered couch

Response by Cpl Christian Sotoparra made Nov 9 at 2017 8:31 PM

Cpl Christian Sotoparra — Thu, 09 Nov 2017 20:31:12 -0500

I don't know, but that looks ugly as hell. The Army seems to be all about being different and not better, which hurts them a lot of the time.

Response by SGT William Foster made Apr 11 at 2018 1:59 PM

SGT William Foster — Wed, 11 Apr 2018 13:59:42 -0400

Yes I understand your point but why switch the pattern to digital camo why not keep the old camo like it was before?

Response by SPC David Willis made Apr 11 at 2018 2:08 PM

SPC David Willis — Wed, 11 Apr 2018 14:08:58 -0400

Military Industrial Complex.