Why do NCOs and Enlisted personnel give new junior officers such a hard time?

2013-09-17T11:32:05-04:00

When new young officers get to their first unit, they're usually messed by just about everyone! This can range from from taping them upside down to a tree in the middle of post, to things I can't exactly post here.

What makes NCOs and Enlisted personnel do this so much?

Response by LTC Richard Becker made Sep 17 at 2013 12:16 PM

2013-09-17T12:16:43-04:00

Some of this is harmless fun. Other times, it borders on dangerous hazing. Dangerous for the command climate and the ability of the junior officers to establish a clear level of authority, and dangerous because it undermines the units discipline. In both cases, the leadership allows it to happen. We must be constantly vigilant that we, as leaders do not allow the "fun" to turn into dangerous. As society continues it's upward moral trend, we will see more and more incidents of "fun" no longer accepted.

Response by SGT Daniel Lindsey made Sep 17 at 2013 12:38 PM

2013-09-17T12:38:17-04:00

Tradition; kind of like initiation in other careers. Whether its wrong or right it still happens.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2013 1:08 PM

2013-09-18T13:08:52-04:00

While I agree with MAJ Becker about the haze and danger, I have always looked at it as the NCOs 'testing' the ability of their new leader to handle uncomfortable situations. In the 3 platoons I had (Mech Infantry, Armor, and Mortars), I was tested with different things and I tried to keep a smile and treated each for what they were, tests. Even as a company commander, I was 'tested' by some of my NCOs, however these seemed to be more subtle and were truly their way to figure me out.
Jkp

Response by 1SG Jeff Finlay made Sep 20 at 2013 8:09 PM

2013-09-20T20:09:10-04:00

I was FA for 20 years, I never heard of a young LT getting taped to a gun tube. As a 1SG I did call my Platoon Sergeants in and tell them they were getting a new LT and they better train him right.
For the record, one day I was looking at my unit history and I saw that back in the day 2LT Westmoreland's first duty station was my B Btry 2/18 FA. Every time I got a new LT I would take him into our conference room and show him a picture of 2LT Westmoreland. I would tell them every General started out as a 2LT. Pay attention to your NCO's and listen to the Commander. If I ever heard of a NCO harassing a young LT, I would have torn them a new hole.

Response by MSgt Ryan Tanner made Sep 21 at 2013 5:58 PM

2013-09-21T17:58:41-04:00

Colonel Robert G. Shaw: Sgt. Mulcahy!

Sgt. Mulcahy: Sir!

Colonel Robert G. Shaw: I have no doubt you a fair man, Mulcahy. I wonder if you are treating the men a little hard.

[Sgt. Mulcahy pauses]

Colonel Robert G. Shaw: You may speak freely.

Sgt. Mulcahy: The boy is a friend of yours, is he?

Colonel Robert G. Shaw: Yes, we grew up together

Sgt. Mulcahy: Let him grow up some more.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 21 at 2013 10:51 PM

2013-09-21T22:51:38-04:00

I haven't seen treatment like this but I will say I have had my fair share of squaring away boot lieutenants in the fleet all the way up to captains in the joint environment. It is our responsibility to provide recommendations and guidance from the enlisted perspective to the young officers with less experience so they can make the right decisions to accomplish the assigned mission and for the welfare of the men.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 21 at 2013 11:52 PM

2013-09-21T23:52:34-04:00

I started as an 11C assigned to the CAV in 1986. As a young private I understood the running joke at the time that the difference between a private and a 2nd LT is the fact that the private knew more. Probably true at first. I knew my NCO's pretty much despised butter bars and treated them as though they were stupid. Being a young private, I never looked at Lt's like they were stupid. 27 years later, as a SFC. I probably would be a command sergeant major if I wasn't a trouble maker. I get it. butter bars a snot nosed kids, who come to the army and don't crap. I've been in Special Forces since 1990 and don't have to deal with them. But we treat our new CPTs like butter bars. They are borne again when they arrive on an SF team. They come and go and are always somewhat isolated from the guys. We all mess with each other but never in malice.

I have never heard of hazing a new officer in my entire career. I should not be allowed to happen, and the NCOIC should never allow it to happen. Not knowing the details, A joke, not carried too far, not done in malice would be one thing, but if that officer is the butt of the joke, it's not appropriate at all.

Advise to all new officers, especially butter bars. When you come to a unit you are going to be resented by the senior NCO's. Because you don't know crap but are in charge. Every now and then when introduced into a new unit, you may find the NCO's are weak leaders and will have to step up. But sit back, evaluate, learn, make command decisions but ask the SR NCO's for input too before making decisions. I remember evaluating units at one time, and this young LT was at the sand table brain storming the plan out loud as the entire platoon watched him and rolled their eyes. Frankly his plan was sound, but he changed his mind over and over, which he should, he was brain storming. But he covered everything. He was very sharp. His problem was he didn't include the NCO's in the planning. When asked why, in a private conversation, he said the thought they were a little weak at planning. I suggested to him, next time, let the NCO's brainstorm together and observe. Let them give you their general concept, then guide them toward your plan. Ask questions. What about left and right limits? What about command and signal. Overall, his NCO's respect him, because he allowed them to plan. He doesn't look like he can't make up his mind. In fact they think, crap I didn't think of that and he did. The officer gets his plan, but lets the NCO's believe it was theirs. Mutual respect is developed.

Response by SPC David Sherman made Sep 22 at 2013 2:14 AM

2013-09-22T02:14:45-04:00

Because they usually don't know anything. Not all our LT's were all not smart.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2013 9:24 AM

2013-09-22T09:24:10-04:00

I cannot say that I ever did or would. It is however frustrating to watch an NCO misguide a young officer or a Commander at that.
The closest thing I saw about giving a young Officer a hard time was in Balad,Iraq in 2003, but I think it was more a lesson for our outgoing 2LT. We drove her to her new Company and she got out and pointed at her tent for her bags to be downloaded, and walked away. Our incoming 1LT wasn't having it and ordered us to download her bags right behind the HMMV and drive off to chow. That 1LT was probably the best LT I've seen. He actually went out on missions with us.

Response by SFC Matthew Parker made Sep 25 at 2013 11:21 AM

2013-09-25T11:21:38-04:00

Capt Kletzing,
I trained cadets in ROTC at Virginia Tech and my share of new platoon leaders as a platoon sergeant, and I have seen a lt or two taped to a chair in the motor pool. But it was a team building exercise and a welcome into the unit. It tested the lt's sense of humor and reminded him he couldn't do it alone.

I never allowed disrespect towards my platoon leaders but we did have a few closed door counseling sessions.

I have a few platoon leaders that are Battalion commanders now and I enjoy their success as if it was my own.

Response by SPC Jeremiah Ayotte made Sep 26 at 2013 12:59 PM

2013-09-26T12:59:12-04:00

The "veteran" service members are usually testing the "new guy" for personality, their tolerance, possible fit for the unit as well as some good old fashion pranking. If the "new member" has a poor reaction that will set the table for how things will go from then on out.

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 27 at 2013 12:48 PM

2013-09-27T12:48:11-04:00

Sir, junior enlisted get a hard time as well. LT's get their balls busted and so do privates. There's probably no institution that has patriarchal and fraternal characteristics where there isn't some level of hazing. I'd also like you to consider this; many a platoon suffers a capable, well intentioned LT who wants to change the world in 18 months and departs only to replaced by a very similar shave-tail. LT's come and go, they are temporary. NCO's and junior enlisted will remain in the same platoon much longer, so the LT is merely fleeting.

Response by SSG Jason Clark made Sep 27 at 2013 1:56 PM

2013-09-27T13:56:01-04:00

Usually it is because they only have a degree and no real experience. The only difference between the 2LT and a E1 Private is the degree. Officers should definitely come from Enlisted. Basically, it's just a hatred, because the officer got lucky and came in with a degree and doesn't have much to do except be ran away by the Platoon Sgt. Our butter bar was always in the way. Our Mortar Platoon ran a lot smoother when we did not have an officer. Their only use was to utilize the aiming circle.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2013 12:46 PM

2013-09-28T12:46:23-04:00

Wow Sir that definitely sounds like hazing. I can't speak on that note bc that is extreme. I will however speak on the mindset of Officers/ Enlisted. Many enlisted personnel feel that officers feel that they have a sense of entitlement. Many have the perception that bc they have degrees they are the subject matter experts when they are not. Soldiers learn from experience. Officers are the planners but we are the executioners. I think not knowing their role is generally the issue between the two.

Response by SSG Jim Handy made Sep 28 at 2013 1:02 PM

2013-09-28T13:02:17-04:00

In the case of NCO's I don't think it as much giving them a hard time as it is training them to be good officers. I don't care whether they are West Point, ROTC, or OCS, no Lieutenant is ready to lead troops when he gets to his first unit. I was a platoon Sgt. in 3 different units while in the Army and I had to spend more time training my new LT's than I did my enlisted troops. I also worked with several young LT's while I was with Combat Development Experimentation Command who I taught a lot about leadership and problem solving. I have to admit I believe I turned out some pretty good Captains. I believe that an officers entire career and level of success in the military can be determined by the first NCO he works with. I also worked under some pretty poor Captains and I honestly believe if you will check you will find out that they worked with some pretty poor NCO's in their first unit. When I was given a new LT I don't believe he was put there to be my leader, he was put there for me train to be a good leader and the ones who understood that turned out pretty good.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2013 2:26 PM

2013-09-28T14:26:06-04:00

Well I think that is in good fun and a rite of passage so to speak. Some bring the negativity on themselves and once they realize that NCOs are the most influential aspect of the services, is when a unit operates at it's best. I guess it is probably best characterized by Sgt Basilone. That medal of honor winner shows that greatness is defined by mission first people and of course respect for all officers, regardless of tenure.

I dealt almost exclusively with officers being a weather forecaster, yet respect was two-way because of the professionalism I exhibited. That strength of commitment rubs off on others.

When these relationships are good, between all levels, the unit is a good one or we have what we had during wartime when accidents happened. It is horrible to imagine but sometimes I think that some officers felt the same way.

Response by 1LT Israel (Izzy) B. made Sep 28 at 2013 3:35 PM

2013-09-28T15:35:58-04:00

It depends on the atmosphere of the unit/post and sometimes on the junior Officers themselves. Prior enlisted junior Officers tend to receive better treatment because they walked in enlisted shoes and don't generally throw down the rank card as quickly when trying to get things done. Many NCOs and enlisted personnel (not all) see new ROTC, non-prior OCS, and most especially West Pointers as out of touch and having an attitude due to their authority (no prior enlisted would ever think a 2LT, "outranks" a 1SG or CSM, even with authority). 2LTs are thought of as Privates, even though they have usually received more training and obtained higher education levels. I 've heard stories about 2LTs not receiving salutes in certain environments which don't, "recognize butter bars." After selection for OCS, I was briefed by a field-grade Officer on how becoming a junior Officer would be, "a demotion, not a promotion" until achieving company-grade level rank. Not completely true, but it sure felt like it at times. 1LTs are usually treated better due to the perception that they have more military experience.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2013 3:43 PM

2013-09-28T15:43:53-04:00

The reason because the NCOs and Enlisted give the hard time to junior officers is because must of the junior officer came from ROTC and dont have any kind of military experience and they try tell the NCOs and Enlisted who have more years of experience in the military and more than 1 deployment how do there job but the way they tell the people is not the profecional way and they think because they are officer they can talk to the people the way they want in my case I respect and follow more the officer who was NCOs or Enlisted before to be an officer than one who just get commissioned from ROTC

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Sep 29 at 2013 11:35 AM

2013-09-29T11:35:15-04:00

This is a joke, right? Sure, I had to earn respect when I was a "shavetail" lieutenant, but no one would openly disrespect me or abuse me in the manner described, nor have I ever heard of anything like it happening. Yes, there were instances of "fragging" for officers and NCOs who got their men killed through their incompetency. However, these things were rare.<div><br></div><div>Yes, enlisted, NCOs, and even junior officers might respond with lethargy to orders from higher ranking personnel who were obviously incompetent, but never overt acts of insubordination or abuse. Such acts would indicate poor discipline which usually equates to poor leadership, command and control.</div><div><br></div><div>No, I'll stick with my original idea. This is a joke...</div>

Response by SSG Marshall DeLay made Sep 29 at 2013 11:47 AM

2013-09-29T11:47:49-04:00

This subject brings back some fond memories, Most of the new LT's I met where very aware of the influence NCOs had on the unit, I don't recall any physical harassment to 2LTs, although they had to earn our respect as a leader.

Response by SPC Tim Ward made Sep 29 at 2013 1:43 PM

2013-09-29T13:43:21-04:00

from my own personal experience the some of the new junior officers bring it on themselves thinking they are all high and mighty till they get their first taste of the field with their new unit. i remember my second platoon leader we made him cry lol

Response by SGT Michael Griley Jr. made Sep 29 at 2013 4:18 PM

2013-09-29T16:18:03-04:00

I always looked at theses butter bars coming into the 82nd would get us killed. We would sit the new Lt's down tell them just observe after at least 6 months until we would let them make a decision. There was no disrespect we always told evaluators they did everything. Beside anybody with any experience knows NCO's run the show!!!!!!

Response by MSgt Guy Gilligan made Sep 30 at 2013 7:28 PM

2013-09-30T19:28:19-04:00

Most probably aren't going to like this but it's time for the Post Commander and MP's. Initiations are one thing. However, this crosses the line we all took as an oath. Maybe you should go back and read it then display that in your daily actions or why bother being in the Military if all you want to do is horse around?

Look, I'll give my example with a senior officer who was an E-5 Army Enlistee, K-9 Handler, DMZ, ROK. Became an AF 2Lt. Came to our Unit as Radar Optr. Was Security Officer, I was already the Security NCO and had been prior to his arrival. So was I a little apprehsive, yes, of course. But, came to find out we were a good team during our deployments and back in garrison.

I believe that beause he was prior enlisted he related a little more and he was on the "Z" in Korea so he new the combat side of our deployments I knew the organizational aspect and selected personnel then trained them. This became a requirement due to the fact that the Army stopped deploying with AF Grnd Rdr Sites so the security requirements had to come from within. Which "we" did.

If the new officer is not a prior enlistee treat him with the same respect that you "WOULD" if he was.

GUY GILLIGAN, MSGT, USAF (RET)

1969-1991

Response by CWO2 Shelby DuBois made Oct 1 at 2013 3:46 PM

2013-10-01T15:46:56-04:00

Sounds like a lot of politically correct BS being spouted here. Yes... Lt's get a hard time. It's because this young stud is coming into your unit to be your boss and the fact of the matter is that every single one of the young enlisteds has been in the unit longer than the LT. They want to pull his ears and yank his chain to see if he or she has the mettle to be a leader. You Navy guys better not too pompous or we can break out what all you've done to CPO's when they got selected...or you pilots who break in newbies with juvinile antics and tankers who...well....can't mention them... or ordnance...

Response by SSG Floyd Morris made Oct 3 at 2013 3:15 PM

2013-10-03T15:15:36-04:00

What is your response?Because most are not that Intellagent, I spent 22an 1/2 months in Veitnam, when we went out the officers didn't go, When we on mine sweep once in a blue moon, Then they would tell usafter we came in what they expect from us? Most had little, or now idia what we did. after they were trained,they were transfrd.

Response by TSgt Costa Piperakis made Oct 3 at 2013 4:10 PM

2013-10-03T16:10:06-04:00

In a squadron( years ago)the squadron just building up.AF academies grads throwing a foot ball in the hall. A master sgt.(acting I/first shirt)came by. I heard "cheese it the first sergeant is coming.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 3 at 2013 4:12 PM

2013-10-03T16:12:08-04:00

I think, we think of them as "rookies" and inexperienced college kids and that also subconsciously gives us the OK to treat them that way.

Response by SN Jeff Watson made Oct 3 at 2013 4:56 PM

2013-10-03T16:56:46-04:00

the enlisted and nco's have gotten there hands dirty while earning their positions. College kids think they have more skills because of the schooling. Therefore, junior {know it all} officers get heckeled by the noncoms until they prove themselves to be one of them.

Response by SGT Michael McMahon made Oct 4 at 2013 2:30 AM

2013-10-04T02:30:11-04:00

Because most Butter Bars, don't know their asses from a hole in the ground. They are worse than private, as they think they know everything, but know nothing. The only exception are the OCS Graduates, who were enlisted first, even better if they were NCO's, as they know we know what to do , and how to do it, and they can trust their NCO's to get it done, and to stay the hell out of the way, unless they want to be hands on working. After being in a unit for 2 years, they will either have learned how things get done and they turn the butter to silver, or they are on their way to another assignment as a butter bar and basically on their way out. West Pointers are the worse officers at demanding respect, deserving none because they know nothing but how to piss their NCO's and soldiers off!

Response by Sgt Tom O'Brien made Oct 4 at 2013 3:01 AM

2013-10-04T03:01:45-04:00

In answer to this question are we talking non prior enlisted officers? or are they freshly commissioned with no prior military service?

In my career I have seen some very profound boneheaded individuals that have been commissioned, and if they survive to the rank of Captain, and have learned the ropes from the NCO's, they tend to be good officers, the same "messing " occurs in the junior ranks as well, some is very good natured(axe qualification comes to mind) others are out and out sadistic hazing. in regards to the Junior officers, they have not been to the brink like many of the enlisted, they still have to pay their dues, and this came from the Best Comm officer I ever had the pleasure to have worked with, I had picked him up as a second lt back in 1990, we were getting prepared for the push into Kuwait, and the young lt made it clear that he was going to learn from the NCO's...for he had just been commissioned.

Response by SGT James Novacek made Oct 4 at 2013 10:20 PM

2013-10-04T22:20:19-04:00

During my 3 years 2 months and 12 days in US Army 1966 to 1969, including 18 months in Vietnam most new Officers demanded respect before they earned it.. Some even demanded a salute in the war zone, which we did comply.. Don't know how many of them didn't make but I'm sure it was many.. You know why..

Response by SGT James Novacek made Oct 4 at 2013 10:20 PM

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Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2013 11:45 PM

2013-10-04T23:45:49-04:00

Junior officers' arrogance and a lack of humility. There are few things as annoying as a second lieutenant fresh out of school who feels compelled to tell me how "the real Army" works. As a former ROTC cadet, this "attitude" was pervasive. Cadets were consistently taught to "lead," without the first class in "how." As NCOs we are often called upon to continue a junior officer's training. Amusingly, even as a young airman, I routinely babysat one of my captains. Good man but extremely lacking when it came down to the actual job.

Response by LTJG Robert M. made Oct 9 at 2013 3:34 PM

2013-10-09T15:34:59-04:00

Never had this issue, I was a mustang, enlisted first, Officer second.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2013 5:42 PM

2013-10-09T17:42:33-04:00

In my 23 years with the Army (Reserve, Guard, ROTC, Active, Reserve, IRR, Active) I have never seen any hazing of LTs by Enlisted (I have seen CPT/1LT on 2LT and CWO on WO1). What I have seen a lot of here on the Signal side is 2LTs straight from OBC showing up and expecting all enlisted to bow to their great knowledge of all things Army. I can not count the times I have had to do something I (and everyone else) knew would not work because the officer said it works on paper or in some computer simulation. Many young officers seem to believe they will lose all credibility if they ask a Specialist or a Private what their opinion is. While most lower enlisted may not know all the radio theory or computer programing, they will know how things work in practice in real world situations. Some of them even know the theory behind it and are willing to explain it. If more Jr Officers would allow the Sr NCOs to lead mentor them and let the Jr NCOs and Sr SPCs worry about the day to day operations, the Army would run much smoother and the officers would get the respect they deserve.

Response by LCDR Jeffery Dixon made Oct 12 at 2013 9:23 AM

2013-10-12T09:23:26-04:00

Helps develop character. They begin to focus on the mission and the people who as a team have to get it done.

Response by TSgt Costa Piperakis made Oct 16 at 2013 2:38 AM

2013-10-16T02:38:45-04:00

personal observance :second johns right out of O.C.S or the military academies .are like collage boys(unless previous military time.)I saw some second LT.s playing football in the hall ways. Then I saw a senior officer ream some glut Imus Maximus. Did not happen again.

Response by SFC James Wallace made Oct 19 at 2013 5:51 PM

2013-10-19T17:51:22-04:00

Without reading the other responses and making my own observation. Some Officers come in with an I know it all type way. With no room to learn. Straight out of the book , I call it. Instead of straight out of the trenches. NCO's tend to lean toward someone they can teach no matter what the rank. Taking a book into battle is not a good thing. While turning the pages one good get lost.

Response by CW3(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2013 11:57 PM

2013-10-25T23:57:45-04:00

I'll throw my two cents on this one. The only reason I could see a jr. officer getting a hard time is if he/she is straight out of college with no prior military service. You really have to treat them as a private, since they do not know any better.

Response by CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2013 2:49 AM

2013-10-27T02:49:12-04:00

My response as an education/experienced 4 year TIS CPL is that some are quite young and give props for the college education but have no clue about the real Army. Plus some enlisted like myself have degrees as well and want to be officers but was kind of shafted while joining or not told about becoming one. So it's hard sometimes but always will to salute and give respect when they are kind of babies in the beginning

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2013 3:43 AM

2013-10-27T03:43:52-04:00

As a former NCO, I am going to say that it's because the new officer is full of the theories of the military and, typically, has very little understanding of how the military actually operates. It's a way to get them to listen to their NCO's, trust their NCO's, and learn to work with their NCO's.Now, as an officer, I relished the opportunities the NCO's in my unit tried to take with me when I first became commissioned. Being a Mustang, I loved the look on their faces when I called their bluff and they didn't know what to do. But the Officer needs to earn that trust and confidence of their NCO's and, likewise, the NCO needs to earn the trust of the Officer. I believe this is the primary intent of messing with the new officer.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Oct 27 at 2013 10:42 AM

2013-10-27T10:42:11-04:00

Questions like this do.

Response by SFC Gary Fox made Oct 27 at 2013 12:25 PM

2013-10-27T12:25:09-04:00

It's the young officer's right of passage. I've seen many times, especially those officers commissioned through ROTC who arrive at a unit believing they know more than their Platoon Sergeant. Face it, the E-4 has more experience in the mission than the newly commissioned 2LT.I served with a LTC who was once an OBC instructor. He said he used to tell all the 2LTs in his classes that when they leave there, they will go to a unit and be a Platoon Leader. He told them he didn't know why they were being called a "leader" because they did not yet have the experience to lead. He told them their platoon sergeant would have years of experience and they should be in that platoon sergeants hip pocket learning everything they can. Platoon sergeants are the best mentor a new 2LT can ever have, but that 2LT has to realize that.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2013 12:40 PM

2013-10-27T12:40:05-04:00

I respect everyone's right to have and voice their opinion but everyone and their brother knows this is like a daily event right? We're kicking a dead horse.....just let it go please....some topics i wish would just never cross my radar....ie this one

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2013 4:27 PM

2013-10-27T16:27:18-04:00

I've been on both sides of this coin. As an NCO, I did my fair share of "mentoring" my LTs. It was all in good fun and in my opinion, raised moral and brought us closer together as a unit. Nothing more entertaining than a 2LT/Future General and the exploits that follow him or her. Now, as a 2LT myself, I am learning that despite my 4 years of prior service, I'm in a whole new world and there are plenty of mistakes to be made. I try to use the "I didn't know I couldn't do that?" excuse, but it just doesn't get me as far when people know my background. I think with a little thick skin on both ends, this kind of joking is a good thing. I just need to learn to avoid anything I can be taped to after my soldiers read this post...

Response by SMSgt Douglas Vaughan made Oct 28 at 2013 6:30 AM

2013-10-28T06:30:59-04:00

Good question. Good NCO's would not. Though it's wrong, many feel junior officer come in right from school and get offended because they outrank them. GET OVER IT! If you had the discipline to get through school, you may be further in your own career. I was 31 years enlisted. I retired as an E-8. Regardless of my experience over a junior officer, I always tried to help. They too are looking to do a good job and need your support. For those doing the hazing, what do you think you are going to do in the civilian market when the same situation happens? Try the hazing there and you will be looking for another job. Personally Capt, I would be throwing the book at anyone doing this and get them out the service as fast as possible. We need people in there we can trust.

Response by Cpl Glynis Sakowicz made Oct 28 at 2013 12:05 PM

2013-10-28T12:05:32-04:00

I cannot speak for all the others, but I had a different view of young officers, because I have/had an uncle that was senior officer. He once told me, that he owed his entire career to NCO's who nudged him when he needed it, and on two occasions, he laughed and said he stood rather embarassed, as a 'crusty' NCO put his comments into small, easily understandable words so he could understand it. Uncle Bill said, he felt he was a much better commander for having been pushed and prodded because there were times when he didn't have a clue what path to take. Uncle Bill sadly, was killed by a drunk driver shortly after we spoke that last time, so maybe his comment stayed in my mind more clearly because of that.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2013 8:23 PM

2013-10-28T20:23:13-04:00

Ive never seen anyone disrespect an officer in such manner but rather they have been talked to professionally so that they can find a good path and a good enlisted mentor. We all need good mentors whether they are officers or enlisted. Both sides bring experience. When a junior officer comes in sight, he/she needs to be led properly so that they don't grow to be incompetent; and that's for PVTs as well. I do think it is extremely important to 'groom' an officer so that we can have great strategic leaders.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2013 8:26 PM

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Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2013 8:27 PM

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Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2013 9:50 AM

2013-10-29T09:50:51-04:00

Your suffering is amusing to us.

Response by CMC Robert Young made Oct 29 at 2013 7:16 PM

2013-10-29T19:16:24-04:00

Sir, I grew up the son of an army corporal turned 2nd LT so I speak with some familiarity about the subject. I have also observed similar events during my time as a senior enlisted leader in the Coast Guard. I would offer that there are two different driving forces; one bad, the other good. The bad is from a lack of adherence to service core values and is motivated by things not so noble in the human condition. It's about power and cruelty. The good is to instill a sense of belonging and spirit de corps. It depends on the approach, the spirit, and the nature of the conduct of the personnel involved.

The command's tolerance is also a deciding factor. Solid commands don't tolerate poor behavior, and they likewise recognize that JOs are the service's future leaders. Their actions later in their careers will in large part be determined by the greeting they receive from their first unit's senior NCOs. If the command requires high standards from the NCOs, then unacceptable events are less likely to occur and the odds improve that the quality of JOs will be also be higher.

Response by CWO2 Shelby DuBois made Oct 30 at 2013 3:39 PM

2013-10-30T15:39:58-04:00

<p>From all the comments so far its pretty easy to make a some conclusions. One is that some Officers tend to have thin skin and cannot take a joke. And two...some Officers tend to have thick skin and are in on the joke. Third, and most obvious, is that enlisteds have always embellished their sea stories about how and why the stuck it to the new butter bars. And lastly, some senior enlisteds either sound off as incredulous and how it never happened on their watch...or they have better stories and are to PC to tell them.</p><p>My hats off to you (once) young officers who were able to come out of your first run ins with young enlisteds without it shattering your poor , dented egos...you became better leaders for it. </p>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 30 at 2013 9:40 PM

2013-10-30T21:40:21-04:00

There's probably a wide range of reasons.

Some people resent someone younger and with less "real world" experience technically outranking them. Even more so when that person appears to hold it over them and demands respect without having earned it in the NCO or enlisted soldier's eyes.

Others take a more masochistic view. They think they are helping to "toughen up" and prepare the young officer by being hard on them, or perhaps weeding out the weak.

Then there are those that have no reason at all other than they are immature and unprofessional and will simply do unto others anything they feel they can get away with.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2013 3:59 PM

2013-10-31T15:59:03-04:00

There's really no correct answer. Why do we smoke the new joes, give the new buck Sergeant hell and so on. In my experience, a number of people hold the fact that most of these officers are no more than about 22 or 23 years old when they get to a unit and really dont know much and are charged with leading soldiers who the majority of them have more time in service. acceptable.....by no means it is. At the end of the day we need to ensure the new LT is aware of the role he/she plays and understands that. NCO's need to make certain they mentor and support them and point them in the right direction<br>

Response by SSG Shawn Vann made Oct 31 at 2013 4:58 PM

2013-10-31T16:58:39-04:00

Sir,

I've been in the Army for over 20 years now, and have seen my share of good and bad! The only taping I witnessed was at fort hood. Our lt. Was a West Pointer and it was her birthday in the field. We saw to it that she was "standing proud when reveille played as she was taped to her cot and the cot in turn taped to the 15 meter antennae mast.

As for messing with the noob Lt's. Their training sometimes just isn't up to snuff or they don't have the experience to lead properly. I can only speak to non divisional signal battalions because that's all I've been on aside from White House comms. In a Signal Platoon no one looks to the Platoon Leader for anything. Everyone turns to the Platoon Sergeant. The platoon leader is just too green. Especially the West Pointers. After a year or 2 of sitting in the Platoon Sergeants cargo pocket they are better off. Similar to a private, they haven't got the knowledge or know how to really lead until they've been on the job a little while.

Response by CPT Mike M. made Nov 1 at 2013 5:57 PM

2013-11-01T17:57:36-04:00

Wow, this topic has certainly stirred the pot a bit. People sharing stories of experiences and those who are dead set against it. Personally I think it's just dependent on the culture of the unit. A tank platoon leader is going to have a completely different experience starting off than a brand new MI 2LT serving in a BN S-2 shop. Each one is unique.

There have been things I've heard about and seen that with the new spotlight the Army's putting on hazing are very clearly unsat. I will mention one though. After a specific "right of passage" as some of you have referred to them where the unit was having fun with some of the PLs out on their first gunnery one of the PSGs silenced everyone in the room and gave a speech. He ended it with a line that was something to the effect of "Gentlemen, (to the LTs) you are now officially Tankers!" The atmosphere in the room was not one of malice. It was not an environment of hostility. At the end of the day there were no ill feelings between any individuals. If anything it strengthened the bond. Think of a family. Brothers are going to beat each other up. However, I dare anyone outside the family to try to step between them and cause harm to one. They will quickly feel vengence they never knew imaginable. I don't see the brotherhood within some combat units as any different. Granted, there is NO acceptable time for some of the things we've read about in the Army Times over the last couple of years. There's appropriate and completely over the line. I guess I should say there was. With those events coming to light it put a halt to anything of the nature, at least here on the duty station where it occurred.

BLUF - There's a right way and a wrong way to do things. However, since some servicemembers clearly can't determine on their own where that line is and way overstepped, there's now no room for any of it.

Response by Cpl Ray Fernandez made Nov 1 at 2013 7:41 PM

2013-11-01T19:41:21-04:00

I think it comes down to someone with little experience going from being a student to being in charge of the lives of men who likely have many more years of experience and knowledge in that field. The amount of time it takes for an NCO to attain their rank is usually well over a year, and that is after basic training, MOS school, and then being a part of a unit where they have to prove their abilities before they are considered leaders.

Although NCOs and enlisted give the newer officers a hard time, they have the unofficial goal of shaping and training that officer to be good at their jobs and be able to advance in their careers. I can't personally say I've ever seen or heard of an officer being taped upside down in a tree or anything like that but if that did happen it likely may have been a way to teach someone a little humility.

Response by SFC Randy Robinson made Nov 2 at 2013 12:05 AM

2013-11-02T00:05:47-04:00

A lot of times we have young officers start their career as a "know it all" and no matter what they are always right in their mind. Also, a lot of young officers are weak with knowledge of how things are done and think they can come to a unit and change everything over night. On the other hand the NCO branch can tell a strong leader within minutes as to "are they part of the problem or part of the solution.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2013 2:25 AM

2013-11-02T02:25:19-04:00

Respect is paramount for all. Everyone diserves good leaders and everyone needs development. No one should act like they know everything. It goes a long way to listen when it is time to listen. When a new LT gets to his first unit is is time to listen.

Response by SFC Michael Patterson made Nov 3 at 2013 1:01 PM

2013-11-03T13:01:36-05:00

Sir there are several reasons this happens. In fact it happens with the Lower Enlisted Soldiers as well. Simply it is a hazing period or right of passage for the new guys. This doesn't mean I condone it however it is something that happens. As far as the NCOs are concerned they should be doing their best to get that young LT on track through mentoring. They sometimes need just as much training as the Soldiers do to become proficient at their jobs. So the Junior NCOs may sometimes feel that they are training a PVT and heckle the LT occasionally.

As far as the Lower Enlisted side most 2nd LTs are about the same age as your PVT-SPC ranks. Although their rank warrants respect from the Soldiers they are still in the same age bracket. So the Soldiers can sometimes forget their place because of this. Regardless of the situation the NCOs need to show the 2nd LT the respect their rank warrants. This is the one way that LTs authority and position can be reinforced in front of the subordinates. Ultimately changing things around for the LT. Now the stuff you described I have never seen nor would I allow to have happen if it was my LT.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2013 3:43 PM

2013-11-04T15:43:38-05:00

I would say most of it is done in good fun, kind of like ribbing, or welcoming the new guy to the unit. If you're a newbie and the NCOs don't pick on you, that's probably a bad sign...

Response by MSgt George Sidler made Nov 4 at 2013 4:24 PM

2013-11-04T16:24:33-05:00

For me, I think the answer is fairly simple...
Many (and I use the word "many" NOT "ALL" here), have a tendency to come-off with that "better-than-thou" attitude; like their decision to become an officer was expected because of some innate(?) ability; some genetic qualifier that has given them so much more access to life's answers, when in fact many simply made the decision to attend college before entering their service; thus, making them "eligible" for officer training.

It is the humble individual that draws the respect and loyalty of their subordinates. Someone who recognizes that, although school training is critical to effective decision-making in the field, experience serves its equal in the life lessons that become the art of war. The NCOs see that green officer, FIRST, as a liability; someone who (because of their position and/or rank) stands to wreak havoc amidst a well-disciplined/trained fire team. Secondly, as someone who, with the right attitude, and (extensive) training strapped to his side, can become a most effective lead-by-example officer (the reason, I might add, that Mustang Officers are so revered throughout every branch of service).

It is all about attitude and cockiness; that "better-than-thou" hierarchical expectation should be what is stripped away first, before the true leader emerges.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2013 11:02 PM

2013-11-04T23:02:27-05:00

Sir, I can only speak for myself in that I have never ever witnessed anything like what your question asks. And I would hope that any such act would be dealt with swiftly and with a stern hand. Have I given my platoon leader, XO, or company commander a hard time? Sure I have but not with direct disrespect or disregard to that officer. I do not follow the idea that "I have more time in combat than they have in service" philosophy as many others might. Do I? Probably so but that's a benefit to that Lieutenant coming to my platoon because they have someone they can learn from, if that's the type of NCO they have. A lot of people see it a way of earning trust amongst your enlisted troops and while that might sometimes be the case, it does not excuse anyone from abiding by protocol, regulation, and sheer common sense. The only difference between service men and women is rank. We all put our pants on the same way.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2013 1:54 AM

2013-11-08T01:54:42-05:00

While I cannot and will not speak for anyone other than myself, I will say my two cents. I remember sitting in a Company training meeting and throughout the meeting DTU's kept coming up. At one point a E-5 was needed for something ( I do not remember what exactly for) I had a 2LT look right at me a say "You're just an E-5 why don't you do it?". At that point in my career I had spent three years down range, I was sitting in for my PSG who was on leave for a few more days and was more than capable of working out Troop to Task. That one sentence will forever stick out in my mind. That right there is why Enlisted give junior officers a hard time. In my experience they have a sense of entitlement that can only be had by being a junior officer. PFC Snuffy would never and will never look at an NCO and say that. I was in complete disbelief that she actually said that. That being said, I volunteered for the detail. WHY? Because it was the right thing to do.

Response by CWO2 Shelby DuBois made Nov 12 at 2013 9:15 AM

2013-11-12T09:15:57-05:00

Apparently, today's politically correct temperment and social engineering of the military has made an army of thin skinned men and women who are quick to cry foul and throw out the buzz words of the day...bullying, hazing, language, etc .. .is no longer frowned upon but can cause loss of rank or even careers. If we'd had this same train of thought through the 1980's... I am afraid we'd be speaking German or Japanese today. There certainly would have been no Chesty Puller's, Dan Dailey's, Nitmiz's or Patton's.

I notice no officers here saying that they had been disrespected... perhaps they are too embarrassed that a young enlisted got the better of them? BUt the common thread is the repeated words ...'growth', 'test', 'right of passage'...all referring to men and women learning not only weapons and tactics, but leadership. If you cannot handle the heat then perhaps a nice civilian job is best for you.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Nov 18 at 2013 12:33 PM

2013-11-18T12:33:41-05:00

I am astonished to read that so many approve of this behavior, even tacitly. I never experienced it and, had I, I would have used my authority to see it punished. One thing that the NCOs seem to forget is that even though they have more experience than the shavetails inflicted on them, they do not have the responsibility. That's right. Even the most green LT bears more responsibility than any NCO will ever carry. If they can't respect that, they can't respect any officer properly. If the officer doesn't reciprocate with proper respect for the men in their command, they have recourse up the chain of command until they find an officer who does respect the enlisted men and their knowledge and experience. However, vigilante justice has no place in the military any more than it does in the civilian world. And, if it is mere hazing, it is even more reprehensible and should be punished.

Response by SFC Michael Boulanger made Nov 25 at 2013 3:10 PM

2013-11-25T15:10:32-05:00

I have never heard of those things being done to new officers. But one time when I was Active Army and an E4 MP my LT walked up to me and said give me a hair cut. I told him I didn't know how to do cut hair at all and he responded with I don't care just do what you are told. I said ROGER SIR and he sat down and I shaved a big arrow pointing south on the back of his head. He made it till the following day when the Company Commanded went off on him. After talking with the PLT SGT, CO CDR and the 1SG they all understood why I did it and laughed. If he would have talked to me a little more tactfully and not came off like a D-BAG I may have tried to do the right thing. By the way my verbal counseling from all 3 consisted of "Although that is the funniest thing I have seen in a lond time, don't do it again."

Response by SGT Tommy Silvas made Nov 26 at 2013 12:21 AM

2013-11-26T00:21:33-05:00

I think the treatment depends on the attitude of the 2LT. I noticed the majority of ROTC grads seemed to have a chip on there shoulders and came in with the wrong attitude and would end up making a fool of themselves in front of the enlisted men wich could of been avoided, But the West Pointers, god I loved them they had nothing to prove, when I got wind we were getting one I did ever thing I could to make he ended up on my team. There are good ROTC officers too.

Response by SFC James Baber made Jan 11 at 2014 10:35 PM

2014-01-11T22:35:46-05:00

I think this is a good thread for those we are trying to get to join can see the substance of some things we discuss between us as current and former military, soft spoken as well as informational and mentoring types of postings.

We also have fun at times while remaining professional.

Response by CPO Rob Schrader made Jan 30 at 2014 7:30 AM

2014-01-30T07:30:50-05:00

This has been a practice in the USCG for many years. But when they are being taped to trees, and disrespected in anyway, this is wrong. Ensigns commonly get razed and draw crummy duty, but that builds character. The Chiefs job it to mentor the JOs and build them up. Disrespect of the Officer should not tolerated in any service.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Feb 21 at 2014 2:17 PM

2014-02-21T14:17:40-05:00

I remember at one of my duty assignements, if you had earned respect of the troops, you were awarded a going away party....ok, it was "hazing". I was Captured, strapped to a litter, then had food/condiments liberally applied. Ended with a "washing" under a garden hose. Another captain who left 2-3 weeks earlier than I was given a wheels up party (they called the airport to ensure 1. he was on the plane, and 2. plane had left). before they started the going away party. I still look fondly on that moment. Still have photos of it online on a family web page. No malice intent, and was a show of respect.

Response by SSG Ralph Watkins made Feb 21 at 2014 4:34 PM

2014-02-21T16:34:51-05:00

It's part indoctrination of a newby & testing to see what kind of officer or person that LT is. Yes, there is a bit of resentment in it as well since they are the newest & sometimes the youngest person & is going to be giving us orders. If the LT is going to be good, they deal with it & move on. The wimpy ones will need some work from the platoon if they are going to survive, & the ones who try to take out the ribbing back on you are the ones you give the least support to & you send them off to do other jobs. A good company commander will watch to see how the LT fares & will give guidance as well.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 5:28 PM

2014-02-21T17:28:24-05:00

My Lt and I just had this conversation this afternoon. It's more of a Welcome To The Team deal. I would do the same thing to a fresh face airman....as long as I know they can take a joke and it's not going to be a "he's picking on me" situation. I've had a couple of those.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 6:49 PM

2014-02-21T18:49:50-05:00

I never heard of such treatment like taping the new Lt to a tree. That would be very disrespectful from the enlisted guys and lack self-respect from that Lt who let himself do that to him. Why would anybody wants to be treated like that? Is he looking for acceptance? Thats the wrong way. I have five years of prior service and I'm definitely looking forward to arrive to my first duty station and I'm ready to make mistakes and learn form them. And I'm not scare of making mistake cause I know that there will be NCO who will help me in the path to success as we help each other to carry out our mission. I''m AG but I volunteered for Infantry branch detail and I can't wait for this next few years to come. It will be a challenge but, God doesn't give us anything that we can't handle.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 6:55 PM

2014-02-21T18:55:42-05:00

Sir, it's really limited to new officers, new recruits usually see the same kind of treatment. I think it really has become a right of passage in a way. Sort of like bonding if you will. I was joked with when I got to my first unit, and so was every other new boot.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 7:46 PM

2014-02-21T19:46:03-05:00

Having been enlisted side and now an Officer, most Officers
come in with a superior attitude and are unwilling to listen. In their 16-20
weeks of training, they learn the military system from front to back. A lot of
them believe they have the best ideas and personnel of lower rank could or can’t
do better. After a few incidents like this, they become jaded and attempt
payback in their own way. I walked into my first unit as with a slick unit form
and the first thing my PSG said was “Sir, if you please have a seat I will give
the grand tour after I start the Troops on today’s business”. I knew this man
was about to look out for my well-being. He left to take a 1SG position two
weeks later. The second guy came while I was TDY. When we met he said, “hey
since your stand in the door get me a box of grid squares and a can of squelch”.
So I asked” is this how it’s going to be”? He looked puzzled as I walked away.
During this time only the CDR, 1SG, and OX knew my background of 15yrs enlisted.
I was fair still and asked him why would he ask me to do such tasks on our
first encounter? It was to give me a hard time and test my sense of humor. All
NCOs aren’t NCOs and all Soldiers aren’t Soldiers, but just as I told the
Soldiers under me. “Don’t judge the Army based off the few the squeaked by, for
every bad there are a lot more good.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 10:14 PM

2014-02-21T22:14:48-05:00

I've only "seen" it when an LT needs help getting out of college mode.

Response by SSG Raymond Andrews made Feb 21 at 2014 11:04 PM

2014-02-21T23:04:59-05:00

Because they know less than an E-3 about the Army.

Response by LtCol Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2014 2:57 AM

2014-02-22T02:57:44-05:00

Just commissioned my son in law upon his graduation from OCS at Fort Benning. This brand new 2nd Lieutenant is an Army Ranger with 5 combat tours under his belt. Airborne, Path Finder, Sniper.......former E-6.  A lot different than a young man or woman right out of college or one of the military academies.  I would like to see someone attempt to tape him upside down to a tree.....He's also smart enough to know that he doesn't know it all and will draw upon the experience of his fellow soldiers as a young platoon leader.

Response by SPC Elizabeth Jones made Feb 22 at 2014 3:06 AM

2014-02-22T03:06:38-05:00

A realist knows that people shouldn't be judged by rank; they should be judged by character and skill. Unfortunately I have noticed that for many people this is foreign concept, but if you want effective results that's the best way to do it. I have done work behind the scenes for many in higher ranking positions and their supervisors often complimented them on the strides they made to improve their work. Honestly however it is probably due to a subconscious jealousy in your son's case. I'm sorry to hear that happened. Rank is no real show of maturity or professionalism.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 7 at 2014 6:18 PM

2014-03-07T18:18:40-05:00

We just looked at it as a right of passage. There aren't the abundance of senior officers around to "initiate" a new LT to a platoon as there are enlisted guys, so it's something the enlisted guys do, just like we do it to each other. At least as far as the guys I know are concerned there is no disrespect or ill-intent by it. I would call it more of an ice breaker.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2014 12:33 AM

2014-03-09T00:33:09-05:00

We are family. We laugh, we fight, we teach, we follow etc. We do this because of the bond we all share. That bond isn't determined by a rank, degree or status. Most of the people on here that grew up with siblings, will understand that. That new officer has just become our younger brother/sister. As long as he treats us as family he will be considered a part of it. I can't imagine staying in if that wasn't true.

I'm not advocating disrespect. Actually, the complete opposite of that. We have more respect for that junior officer than we do for some of our actual family members.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2014 12:37 AM

2014-03-09T00:37:50-05:00

I never gave a hard time to a junior officer who didn't deserve it!

Response by CPL David Levy made Mar 9 at 2014 6:52 PM

2014-03-09T18:52:26-04:00

In my experience, Officers who are trained right, and most respected, stay away from Junior Enlisted, and lean on the Senior NCO's to do their grunt work, and that is the BEST system in place, gets the job done (if the Senior NCO's have a backbone)..

In my worst experience, I was with a unit that was all jacked up, brand new, new standards, no traditions, and no sense of the greater good. Was ran by the brand new Officers. Sergeants time training was ran by Officers, and Officers were out front leading everything and it confused the heck outta me, because I thought about it, how the Senior NCO's in the company had no backbone, no leadership skills and were nowhere present when decisions were being made.

Officers should NEVER have to speak to junior enlisted, ever!! Junior Enlisted should render the salute and drive on, giving that officer his/her space and let them do their job planning and leading. To see no backbone in the leaders is heartbreaking, because I had some really good leaders while I was in the 101st, and they taught/trained us to shut up and leave the brand new LT's alone and the system worked. We accomplished more in 1 month under those conditions, than I did in 3 years with the jacked up unit with Officers out front leading. I had wished all the men and women in my unit had the same upbringing that I went through, so they could have saw what right looks like, and made an attempt to execute the high standards and excellence that I had once known.

New Unit = lots of problems, so I understood and just had to adapt, but I didnt like adapting to lower standards.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2014 1:10 PM

2014-03-13T13:10:19-04:00

Problem I see is that we have gone astray from one team one fight. NCOs are too busy worrying about if this LT knows anything or if they are a stuck up POS. And Officers are having to try and force their "rank" because they feel they are getting to much BS from NCOs. If the two would instead focus on mission and soldiers and stop worrying about the "urinary olympics" the army would be a lot better. And this is just a big cyclical cycle that is doing more harm and is vicious. I have had terrible NCOs ones I begged for mentorship from and received nothing. But on the other hand I have had great NCOs who really helped me and I learned a ton from. Just like I have had good Officers and bad Officers to mentor me. Do I think that the best officers are NCOs no I don't but do I think that some are better yes are some worse yes. I have seen terrible squad leaders who talk about going to OCS and from someone who went to benning for OCS I would tell them to really think about it cause they would be eaten alive. But some enlisted asked me about it and I tell them absolutely cause they have the qualities needed in good officers. But this problem is getting old and we need to start focusing on missions and soldiers instead of ENLISTED VS. OFFICER bs.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2014 11:00 PM

2014-03-13T23:00:10-04:00

My first experience with some junior officers was at my first duty station, Our PL's were brand new and acted like college students and our PSG's really did not care about their well being... needless to say as a private mob at the time our squad messed with our PL really bad. Fast forward I met a few of the cadets that came to our unit and we were on an Airborne op. One of them (who was the same age as me) kept bragging about how he is gonna be a great combat leader and was on a power trip as our CO put out the he was to be treated extra well.... long story short he froze on the tailgate and made it out of the aircraft due to falling after the CASA 212 lurched. I have met both good and bad junior officers over the last 10 years, recently I met a group of EBOLC 2LT's that I was 5 years older than. it was odd but I felt a sense of change in that these were our future leaders that need the mentorship of the NCO who has been in for 10 or more years. They are still essentially a private in the eyes of most of the lower enlisted soldiers that are the same age, and that is true to a certain degree, Ive seen many "Private" mistakes executed by 2LT's.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Mar 19 at 2014 9:31 AM

2014-03-19T09:31:28-04:00

I have only had one BAD jr officer. We where in JOTC and we got a new LT. The man was FRESH outta college and was probably 21 or 22. Just older than me at the time. We where in the Infantry and it was the night before the Live fire exersice. The man DIDN"T know how to set up a linear ambush. Well we all gave him hell. When we got back to Campbell,he was transfered to battalion, As we had gotten orders for Desert shield. Thats when we got one of the best officers straight outta ROTC I have ever seen. The man was a Triple tabed former E-6 from 5th Group. He said dig we asked how deep, he asked us to jump we said how high. Our theroy was if he was an E-6 and Was SF, Ranger, Airborne he knew his Shit and we followed that man into what ever with no questions asked. Because he had BEEN in our shoes, and his head wasn't up his Fourth point of contact.

The only advice that I have as a new officer that is coming into a unit. There are e-4's and NCO's that have more time in. listen to the lower enlisted. take from it what you want and or need and then put it into your tool bag for the future. All the advise may not be good or fitting but at least it shows that you are willing to listen and not the officer that comes in saying " I'm the LT do what I say". We already know that and it just causes strife. let the NCO's handle the dicipline to an extent.

If I am off base please someone enlighten me as I have a new LT and we are deploying. She has a good head on her sholders though.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 12:49 PM

2014-03-21T12:49:08-04:00

Because they are like new PVTs, 01 E1, samething, they dont know anything. However, I think the only people ruffling a new LT should ONLY be Senior NCOs and the new LT's Squad leaders becasue they are the only ones who should be talking to a LT to begin with. As SFCs we always mess them because its our job to mentor the new Louie, I am his personal trainier, of course I'm going to screw with him. But like anything else, its all in good fun.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2014 7:04 PM

2014-03-23T19:04:14-04:00

I can't say I've heard about anything to the degree you're talking about, but from an Air Force, aircraft maintenance perspective there are a lot of reasons why the Senior NCOs mess with the young officers. As many had alluded to, you're a new 22 year old being placed "in charge" of several people ranging from 18 to 40-something. All that perceived "power" can go to someone's head. The practical jokes are meant to keep the Lt grounded and not take themselves too seriously - you are an officer, but you're still a person; just an overpaid one. While your rank is higher than the Master Sergeant you work with, his experience puts him on equal footing with you and you both need to work well together for the good of your flight. The razzing helps reinforce that concept.

Being teased, picked on, or joked with builds a tough skin. If you can laugh at yourself, or with your troops, then the first time you're torn up by your group commander for a crap aircraft status briefing (which is inevitable), you can walk away eager to do better and try again, rather than wallow in self pity, licking your wounds - then one day, when you're deployed and every decision you make really does count for getting a mission off on time (which in turn puts bombs on target accurately), you're mentally tough enough to make it happen no matter what the circumstances and stresses.

Along with that thought, it is a means of testing the waters. An officer who can take a joke and dish it back, while maintaining the dignity of their office, is one that is approachable - an approachable officer earns trust - trust breeds respect.

...now if you're an Lt, duct taped upside down, you have to ask yourself what you did to provoke such unprofessional behavior, then fix yourself AND the unprofessionalism.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2014 8:56 PM

2014-03-27T20:56:57-04:00

That only happens if the young officer lets it. A junior officer is still a leader. The junior leader needs to act like it.

Response by SGT Donald Croswhite made Mar 27 at 2014 9:01 PM

2014-03-27T21:01:40-04:00

Junior Officers are one step ahead of PVTs. When new Officers come into the ranks theirs always ribbing for the new guy. It's part of becoming a part of the pack. I don't see it as hazing but a right of passage. When it's done the NCO's need to help groom the LT. None of this of course should be done in the view of the junior enlisted.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Mar 27 at 2014 9:10 PM

2014-03-27T21:10:42-04:00

Why do NCOs and Enlisted personnel give new junior officers such a hard time?

Most young officers come in with a chip on their shoulder if they are reservists, and those that come from "Hudson High" and are members of the WPPS or West Point Protective Society or some other military academy they may tend to believe that they are better than every other person in the world. I had one officer who came to the unit I was in straight from VMI and he gave every one from E-4 down fits because he thought he knew it all. This man deserved every problem given to him by those of us he harassed.

Response by CWO2 Shelby DuBois made Apr 4 at 2014 3:56 PM

2014-04-04T15:56:49-04:00

I went to bat once for a couple Lt's . I was a boot WO with 10 years in the Corps as an NCO and SNCO and I thought it was appropriate to tell the Major to back off and let these young officers make some decisions without having to look him up each time for confirmation. They have to learn to make decisions and suffer the consequences AND to rely on thier SNCO's for guidance as well. Sometimes people forget that they are forging leaders...not followers.

Response by CPO Rob Schrader made Apr 5 at 2014 6:57 AM

2014-04-05T06:57:13-04:00

Capt.  I can say that that type of juvenile practices that you list in your question never happens in the USCG.  But in my career I never saw any type of hazing to an Officer.  That being said, as the FNG the Junior Ensign most always got the crappy details and the Chiefs road them hard, but we never hazed them with bubble gum.  I can say I have worked with a number of weenies. <div><br><div>An officer is judged by what they know, how they are that leader.  Then with that comes respect for the person. </div></div>

Response by LTC Jason Strickland made Apr 5 at 2014 8:11 AM

2014-04-05T08:11:04-04:00

It's simply part of the rites of passage. I had it done to me and, while embarrassing, I got through it, just like everyone else will as well. This type of initiation is also what helps foster camaraderies among our military personnel.

Response by SSgt Scott Benitez made Apr 11 at 2014 5:02 PM

2014-04-11T17:02:05-04:00

Because we can...

It can almost be a right of passage - and for those that can take it, we'll take care of them. Esprit de Corps (wow, I haven't used that phrase in a long time)

Response by SGT Steven Destael made Apr 16 at 2014 1:48 PM

2014-04-16T13:48:11-04:00

I do believe that young LTs should be given proper training, respect and, afforded all the appropriate courtesies. I had never heard or witnessed junior officers being hazed by enlisted service members. However, I have had the unfortunate pleasure of working with the occasional power hungry LT. You NCOs know the type. The ones that try to step in on your Sergeants time or discipline your soldiers without even giving you the opportunity to correct their shortcomings. I personally, would ask to see them off to the side and discuss the occurrence with them. Not always friendly but, respectfully. I could see how some unrestrained NCOs might step it up from their to try to teach them a lesson but, would never condone that type of behavior.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2014 10:46 AM

2014-04-17T10:46:07-04:00

I have never messed with a Jr. Officer by playing pranks on them. The only thing I do with them is what I do with any new member; when Jr. Officers wear their rank "too heavy" or make a rash, not well thought out policy I would pull them aside, give them a different perspective and strongly encourge them re-think their position on the subject.

Response by Sgt Daniel V. made Apr 18 at 2014 3:48 AM

2014-04-18T03:48:48-04:00

We want to live. That is the bottom line. This man or woman is in charge of our overall success and safety. Their programs, regimes, and discipline will be our life line. Its the same reason men and women date, sure she's the boss, but before we let her take over our lives, we want to know we can trust her. I am sure that Junior officers taking us into combat want to know that same thing so they put us through the paces. I believe it is absolutely essential that the trust be settled earlier than later. Therefore, it is a tradition that should remain. In Marine Corps, this is what we call love.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 8:07 PM

2014-04-21T20:07:46-04:00

Sir, to put it simple, it's because they don't know jack. They're like rough stones that have to be chiseled and molded by their NCOs, who have already been forged in the fire of experience. We had a green PL in an old unit that liked to hang out with the junior soldiers (E4s and below). We (NCOs) pulled him to the side on several occasions and told him that he shouldn't be doing that, but he kept wanting to be buddy buddy. Well I don't have to say that it caused quite a problem of discipline for the unit. Some of the juniors thought they were immune to corrective action because they felt they had the LT in their pocket, and on occasion, he felt he could interject on their behalf. Needless to say, the NCOs pulled his coat, and gave the juniors a rude awakening, and eventually restored order to the madness.

Response by TSgt Kevin Buccola made Apr 22 at 2014 1:37 PM

2014-04-22T13:37:24-04:00

I have never heard of that type of disrespect to an officer (taping to a tree etc.) We have done stuff to new officers that accomplished milestones etc. That was a form of congrats and being a team player but never in a disrespectful manner.

Response by LT Stephen Amiaga made May 27 at 2014 4:06 PM

2014-05-27T16:06:27-04:00

I'd say the answer is quite obvious...because it's easy.

Response by SSG Mike Angelo made May 29 at 2014 9:33 AM

2014-05-29T09:33:16-04:00

Maybe because this social stigma or phenomena starts from the barracks...i.e. home. Sergeants and Troops, so where does the officer fit in this relationship? In the barracks tucking in Pvt Joe Snuffy for the night or wake up call? At barracks clean up or after? Between Reveille and Taps, Sergeants have more contact time to troops than the officer. IMO.

Response by SSgt Kevin Beckley made Jun 2 at 2014 7:31 PM

2014-06-02T19:31:55-04:00

There is always that young LT that thinks he knows everything. I have only encountered one like that when I was in. No matter what you did he thought he knew how to run things better. He wouldn't listen to the experienced NCO's or Senior Airman. Which caused a lot of strife. Eventually the CO told him to straighten out or he would be transferred. Well he got transferred and I remember him saying we were a bunch of Idiots.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 2 at 2014 8:12 PM

2014-06-02T20:12:17-04:00

I am an artilleryman and it is tradition to just mess with that new 2LT when he/she is about to fire their first round downrange. It is just tradition...lol

Response by SGT Curtis Earl made Jun 3 at 2014 11:45 AM

2014-06-03T11:45:45-04:00

Well some of it is hazing. We all know hazing has an extensive. Second, it's really hard to deal with a 2LT that walks in with nominal power but nearly zero experience.

By far my worst experiences in the Army didn't involve SMs or 1SG chewing my ass or even high ranking officers... it was alway an ROTC 2LT/1LT walking in messing things up. Yes, I understand you're an officer. But I've been doing this job longer than you've been in the Army. Leave me alone! My favorite officers are the ones that were enlisted prior to gaining their commision.

Just my opinion.

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 11 at 2014 12:32 PM

2014-06-11T12:32:22-04:00

A million years ago, when I was a new E-4 in the Army, I got saddled with driving our new 2LT around on a field exercise. Looking at the map, all the roads in the area went either up and down or left or right (meaning N-S/E-W). It was 0600 and we were on a road with the sun BLAZING us in the eyes.

He made me get out of the vehicle to determine our direction of travel, and REFUSED to accept my assurances that we were facing due EAST.

This is but one of of many examples.

And this is why SOME new JO's are given a hard time. Those that admit they have no experience and say they want to learn are respected and taught. Those that don't... "Hey, LT. I sent the crew to go search for some replacement cans of squelch for the radios. They may have a hard time of it, so I'm not expecting them back today."

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 11 at 2014 6:24 PM

2014-06-11T18:24:37-04:00

I think it has to do with trust building and also a little to do with testing boundaries with new people that are in charge of you.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2014 5:17 PM

2014-06-17T17:17:42-04:00

A lot of us NCOs (and many crusty E4s who don't test well) are seasoned, salty, old-school troopers who don't like it when a jock with a college degree and a gold bar on his collar walks in like he owns the joint and pretends like he knows everything. The best officers I've ever met were the ones whose voice you never heard until they were rocking train tracks, the ones who took the initiative to learn the ins and outs of the job before changing every process under the sun just to get high marks on his OPR. It's just like giving static to new airmen or privates fresh out of bootcamp, only the person you're ribbing on makes a lot more than you.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Jun 22 at 2014 5:54 PM

2014-06-22T17:54:42-04:00

It is so much fun? I have never seen an officer messed with nearly as bad as new enlisted. We were messed with, some we mess with the next batch.

Response by PO3 Patrick Beckley made Jun 22 at 2014 7:27 PM

2014-06-22T19:27:01-04:00

I believe it's just the natural cycle of things...once I got lead fireman in main prop I was told do with the other firemen as you please...but when I first got outta boot camp it was sent on a journey all over the cutter trying to find the damn deck stretcher...new and blue you don't know anything and it just leaves you wide open to some form of teasing and initiation...when my first batch of firemen came to me with a bad attitude I got with my mk3 at the time and he devised a plan to send them looking for the starter ratchet for the ships diesels...it's just natural to screw with the new guys heads

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Sep 8 at 2014 11:39 AM

2014-09-08T11:39:08-04:00

If anybody tried putting their hands on one of my Officers, they would have to get through me first. A new PL is the same as a day one Private, the difference is their scope of responsibility. A PL is challenged with situations and scenarios that ca't be learned by thumbing through an FM 7-7/7-8 or whatever the new manual is. If it is unconscionable to treat a junior enlisted troop with abuse, then how would it be acceptable with a junior officer? Did I get "taken behind the woodshed?" You better believe it. Did I deserve it? Questionable? Was it a different time? You bet! Was it worse in the generation before? Almost certainly. No one is touching one of my Officers.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Sep 8 at 2014 12:00 PM

2014-09-08T12:00:08-04:00

Has the military changed that much?
In my 9 years, yes, junior officers were messed with a little. I'm talking about messing with them...map jokes, harmless pranks, that sort of thing. I don't ever remember something going physical, or even crossing over to outright disrespect. I actually think that had one of my Platoon Leaders been taped to a tree, someone would have been hammered hard...even if it never saw UCMJ action, your senior NCO's would have made you wish they just took a stripe.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2014 1:52 AM

2014-11-02T01:52:14-04:00

That will be the only time they will be able to push their will on an officer. Once we become CPTs we pretty much inflict our will by force at times.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2014 2:27 AM

2014-11-02T02:27:48-05:00

NCOs and Enlisted personnel do it because they can sense fear.

Response by SSG Ralph Watkins made Nov 2 at 2014 11:55 AM

2014-11-02T11:55:42-05:00

2LT's come in under the guise they are in charge & that they were taught everything & therefore are ready to lead. They need to be put in their place. No 2LT fresh out of officer school is ready to just take over & know what they are doing.Some 2LT's do come in with a good attitude that their NCOs will bring them up to snuff. Any NCOs who have been to decent leadership schools will tell you that their job is to keep the LT from messing things up & training them. I was in 9th ID & we had a brand new West-Pointer in come in & start spouting out orders. He learned after we just decided to follow his orders without telling him how screwed up they were. He was humble enough then to ask for input from the knowledgeable people under him. We never did let him live it down that after 4 years at the Point he was still the youngest member of the platoon. We razzed him as much as we could about it but by then he knew we accepted him. Some officers never do learn & never become effect leaders of people.

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Jan 7 at 2015 5:55 PM

2015-01-07T17:55:22-05:00

tradition.... I was both an enlisted man (Up to E5) and an officer. There is a longstanding belief that butter bars right out of college don't even know how to tie their own shoes... The good JO learns very quickly how to get their Senior Enlisted to teach/guide/help them, or they fail. If they say "I'm an ENS/2LT and I said so..." the enlisted men will just laugh...

Having been enlisted gave me a great background for my commissioned service.

Response by MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2015 2:30 AM

2015-01-10T02:30:39-05:00

There are multiple answers. Shear lack of professionalism - either on the officer's part or the enlisted. If you're a new LT not easing your way in or trying to hard to be in charge, you're going to struggle. You need to earn the Soldier's trust and respect.

At the same time, it could be as simple as jealousy. Officers are often looked at as overpaid and underworked.

Truth is, it's often both at the same time. I was a SFC before I crossed over. When I commissioned, I took a step back. I was never truly harassed or teased. I didn't broadcast that I was prior enlisted at first either. I just carried myself with aan expected degree of professionalism.

When I was a young NCO, my overzealous LTs never gained my respect. Only difference is, I didn't feel the need to pick on them nor was I jealous. I did my best to remain a professional.

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Jan 14 at 2015 10:14 AM

2015-01-14T10:14:31-05:00

Simply because it is fun?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2015 3:13 PM

2015-03-24T15:13:40-04:00

I've seen new officers get it worst from other officers.

Response by PFC Mike Mcdermott made Mar 28 at 2015 6:21 PM

2015-03-28T18:21:28-04:00

All of the junior officers I've had have been inspiring! That being said, all of the cadets I've had sucked bad.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2015 7:37 PM

2015-03-28T19:37:39-04:00

SPC, SGT, SSG with an average of 8 years TIS and 4 combat deployments taking orders from a 24 year old with a degree in Science.

That concludes my Answer!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2015 9:26 PM

2015-03-28T21:26:38-04:00

I'll admit I was shocked to read this post as well. Events like that happen because weak leaders allow it. Any NCO that allows their PL to be taped to a tree is failing in their duties. Any Commander who allows it is equally failing. While I have criticisms of our current commissioning process as well, such acts are a breakdown in good order and discipline. I would be furious if something like that happened to one of my PLs.

I've personally had junior enlisted Soldiers get mouthy with me simply because of the rank on my chest. In most cases I've been wearing a uniform since they were in middle school, but all they see is a "stupid LT." Shortly thereafter they get a reminder of what professionalism and customs and courtesies entail.

Response by PO2 David Hagwood made Mar 28 at 2015 11:02 PM

2015-03-28T23:02:15-04:00

I don't think it's right, to begin with; however, I believe it has a lot to do with how each individual junior officer comes in to their new job. By the time they get there, most Petty Officers/NCOs will have had plenty of experience in whatever field they're working in. If the JO comes in respectfully, asks questions and learn from these people, they will likely receive some respect. If if they come in ready to change things, shakes things up, disturbing what may possibly be a well-oiled machine perhaps because they're desperately wanting to assert their authority, this will stir up resentment, hate, and discontent. For our job, it's best to let the First and Second Classes manage the workload and work center, and let the Chief train the JO. We keep progress updated and go to them for and administrative requirements that are beyond our level. Everyone keeps their hands out of each other's rice bowls and everyone will be happy (or at least not so frustrated). Again, I don't agree with anyone showing any kind of disrespect to anyone up or down the chain, the JOs are put in a place of responsibility where they will be held accountable for anything not done properly or within a deadline because of anyone under them; so it's a lot of responsibility put on a person. Sometimes it's best to just step back and see how your people perform and maybe the people under you could actually make your job easier if things are working as they are. It all goes both ways really. Growing pains should be expected, too.

Response by CW4 Larry Curtis made May 3 at 2015 6:09 AM

2015-05-03T06:09:06-04:00

I think it is almost like unwritten heraldry or something. I had to survive it as a Wobbly-One a few eons ago, but I tend to think that it wasn't nearly as difficult for me as it has been or a 2LT because a) I more or less expected it and was already conditioned to accept and deal with it, and b) Wobbly-Ones are not necessarily so new to the service. Personally I did my best not to exhibit any degradation toward anyone, be it a new Wobbly-One or 2LT unless it was a situation where I had no choice...as in they really DID make me laugh at them for some reason. After I became an Instructor Pilot my professional role had shifted significantly into more of a mentoring role, especially when I was teaching new pilots how to fly at Fort Rucker at the Aviation School. And then once back out in the field for the remainder of my career I felt obliged as a professional to give more attention to the junior grade officers in my unit in order to have a more positive impact on their professional development. I was never in the "sky god" mode where I was constantly in the "flight evaluation" mode...even though I was actually constantly evaluating. I found that people are able to perform best when they are more at ease with their situation, and in the end it pays big dividends for everyone. There was always the inevitability that one day down the road that 2LT could be a Major and be my company commander in a future assignment, and I usually attempted to impress that aspect upon the junior Warrants in the unit when it came to how they conducted themselves. Just my 2 cents-worth. ;)

* * * Added * * *

Everyone goes through growing pains and most everyone has their own unique phases and handle it differently based on their own self-image. Granted, there have been a few hard cases who have had to learn some difficult lessons, and those are usually the ones who get dogged the most. There will always be exceptions because some of us have thicker skulls than others, but overall I found that by using a bit of tact, even the hard cases usually came around and came down to earth with the rest of us for the most part. Most people do not respond well to being constantly dogged or "put in their place" so to speak, especially from someone of lesser rank. But there ARE ways to tell someone to "go to hell" and make them feel darn glad about making the trip. The thing is, we NEED good strong-willed leaders, but we also need them with good insights and common sense. Once anyone is able to "get over themselves" they are capable of learning and it's all in your approach. Once you've offended their ego, there's usually no reaching them. I know I am speaking from my own perspective and experience in my MOS and branch, but I think these principles can be applied just about anywhere, really.

Response by SPC Darrell Fuglseth made May 3 at 2015 8:40 AM

2015-05-03T08:40:21-04:00

Why the system anyway.Such a green guy leading combat vets?Iv seen it.He or she can crash and burn real fast.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2015 3:24 PM

2015-05-20T15:24:35-04:00

Depends on the nature and intent in which it is delivered. Sometimes, us LTs need to be reminded that NCOs (and gasp, even Junior Enlisted,) are professionals, and need to be treated as such. This can be accomplished with some good natured ribbing, and unless one has extremely delicate sensibilities, should turn out fine.

Sometimes things can cross the line. However, I have never personally seen an instance of this. My interactions, both as an O and an E have by and large been positive and collegial.

Response by MAJ David Vermillion made Jun 10 at 2015 11:48 AM

2015-06-10T11:48:12-04:00

They see them with authority without experience, in others words, they haven't earned their stripes yet. I was a 2Lt with 8 years prior enlisted service and never experienced harassment from the NCOs and lower enlisted ranks.

Response by SGM Irvin Lyons Jr made Mar 8 at 2016 11:38 AM

2016-03-08T11:38:54-05:00

Probably don't listen to the advice of his Senior NCO.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2016 12:37 PM

2016-03-08T12:37:24-05:00

I was enlisted for 11 years before getting my commission. I have to say, my NCOs were very protective of "their LT". As a new PL, my PSG and squad leaders set me up for success. It also didn't hurt that I was older and had been an NCO so they knew that I already knew all the tricks and shenenigans that NCOs like to pull.

Response by SSG Lloyd Becker BSBA-HCM, MBA made Mar 8 at 2016 6:23 PM

2016-03-08T18:23:15-05:00

These young officers are at time cocky. They get razed and hazed. When they are taught the value of working with people, attitudes towards these juniors will be a lot better. There is a term we used when I was in Service. Butterbars are the same as Privates; they are both learning.

Response by 1stSgt Eugene Harless made Mar 9 at 2016 5:36 AM

2016-03-09T05:36:26-05:00

I never did this crap. Despite the old tale of "boot Lts" being jacked up my experience was that the ones who weren't weeded out at OCS, TBS or MOS School got dealt with by the Sr Officers pretty quick if they were Ruperts.
By the time we saw 2nd Lts in the FMF they had about 18 months in service. They had been thoroughly indoctrinated in leadership, Tactics and Technical aspects of their job. They also knew that they didnt know everything, and to be open-minded and learn from EVERYONE.

Response by SFC Marcus Belt made Mar 10 at 2016 8:21 AM

2016-03-10T08:21:46-05:00

Depends on the extent and the intent. When I was in ADA, a brief trip up on the crane and the LT was now a "Launcher Dog" Platoon Leader. In HIMAD, as the Launcher Platoon goes, so goes the Battery. It's the price they paid for the staunch loyalty of a platoon of professional Soldiers.

Response by SSG Bill Cooke made Mar 30 at 2016 2:02 PM

2016-03-30T14:02:24-04:00

Lets see on this one, NCOs are the backbone of the Army. Junior Officers are just starting off. The NCO teaches the Junior Officer how to lead the enlisted. The higher officers teach the Junior how to be an officer. For the Junior it is a learning process that MUST be learned. The enlisted are testing the Junior as far as allowed. The Junior and the NCO have to then put the enlisted where they belong. It is a timeless tug of war where egos clash. Who wins, experience does. Now no disrespect is ever allowed. If the enlisted do the disrespect routine then suspended AR 15 or extra duty may be involved. Still the testing does go on.

Response by MAJ Patrick Hairston CISSP, AWS Certified Cloud Architect made Mar 30 at 2016 3:42 PM

2016-03-30T15:42:04-04:00

Things like that show camaraderie. It shows the NCO's do care about the officer. If you as an officer never hear from the NCO's, then you need to start worrying and wondering if you are being a total asshole...If NCO's don't come around you, it means they don't care if you fail..and you want them to care..

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2016 11:06 PM

2016-05-08T23:06:37-04:00

New Butter Bars comes in scared shitless because they want to lead their troops with the knowledge that everyone is looking at them with their “You Don’t Know Shit” glasses. Smart ones will go to their Commander’s, 1SGs and PSGs and ask … What do I need to know?

Dumb ones … the ones who match the douche bag stereotype … will attempt to bluster their way through to demand the respect of their troops and BOY doesn’t that always work out peachy for everyone!

The “smart ones” will be razzed out of a friendly earned respect. I've never seen these 2LTs set up by their troops in an open forum. In the privacy of the PLT ... oh ya ... Game the F*** on!

The latter will be scorned and … I’ve seen it, sabotaged by their troops who have nothing but contempt for the DB.

Response by Maj John Bell made Aug 17 at 2016 5:10 AM

2016-08-17T05:10:02-04:00

The day I reported to my first FMF unit, during lunch a SgtMaj was sitting at a table with several senior SNCO's. He was very loudly talking about what worthless %$#&'s new 2ndLt's were. The comments were obviously meant for me and another 2ndLt sitting at a nearby table. At one point he stared right at us and said "Worthless pups can't even write a charge sheet!" My table mate was a very young looking mustang who was promoted to GySgt less than 7 days before he reported to OCS.

The 2ndLT stood up and walked over to the table and asked the SgtMaj to join him for a private conversation away from everyone else. The SgtMaj announced that he was the Regimental SgtMaj and that he wasn't about to listen to a "green-ass" 2ndLt. The 2ndLt then launched into a thoroughly amazing 5 minute ass-chewing session that started with "In all these years you haven't learned the rank structure"; issued a challenge to the SgtMaj to share his vast knowledge with us pups; and ended with "Why don't you accompany me to the Regimental CP, where I will show you how I fill out a charge sheet". The 2ndLt then apologized to the other SNCO's for chewing a SgtMaj's ass in public, but explained that he felt he was left with no other choice.

The next day, the Regiment had a new SgtMaj.

Response by SSG Gerald King made Aug 18 at 2016 6:15 PM

2016-08-18T18:15:39-04:00

I was the NCOIC of a Detachment of about 25 personnel. One day, the Company Commander and I had a disagreement on one of my policies or some similar item (forget which now - to long ago). He stated his view and I continued to argue with him until he finally put a stop to it by stating the following "FACT". He said: Sgt King, I am sure you will agree that when a young 2d LT arrives, he thinks he knows everything and you can't tell him anything, (I nodded in agreement), usually by the time he makes 1st LT, he understands that there are many things he still needs to learn, (Again I nodded in agreement). But, by the time that young LT makes Captain, He KNOWS he knows everything and there is no use in arguing with him - GET MY POINT SERGEANT!. I nodded yes, Saluted and departed his office.

I think the above story explains why some young officers are treated with less respect than they think they deserve.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Dec 8 at 2016 4:47 AM

2016-12-08T04:47:42-05:00

On unit I was assigned all of our Officers were former enlisted, the Commander had been a SSgt , The Operations Officer had been a SSgt, a 1st Lt had been a TSgt and a 2nd Lt had been a MSgt and had to get an age waiver to be commissioned. Certainly there was no pulling the wool over the eyes of this 1Lt and 2 Lt, they knew quite well which end was up. The Commander, a Captain then and the 2Lt both retired as Full Colonels.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2017 11:48 PM

2017-05-11T23:48:54-04:00

I consider the platoon sgt the most important position in the Army.

Why?

Because he or she is liason between the squads, teams and Soldiersand the 1SG. He or she is the SME on all equipment, tactics and operations. They are the buffer needed to handle issues at the lowest level.

And most important.... they mentor mould and make LTs good commanders for the future.

DRINK WATER!

MSG Bo

Response by SFC James William Bolt [ 40 Yards ] made Aug 5 at 2017 3:41 PM

2017-08-05T15:41:59-04:00

After Korea I was assign to the 1802 special regiment at west point NY in 1951 . Artillery section learn the Cadets would do every thing they could to pull your chain . Learned them that you had to give respect to get respect .

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2017 4:11 PM

2017-08-05T16:11:25-04:00

"Different Strokes for different folks...." I reckon. I had experience on BOTH sides of that equation which I remember despite the decades since I retired. As a 23 year old Petty Officer Second Class (E-5), I was aboard ship with a "fresh caught" Ensign who constantly expressed the attitude of being so much better than any 'enlisted man'. He was a Deck Officer, working for the First Lieutenant (office). I knew very few enlisted guys who dared go near him. Consequently none of the enlisteds who worked in the same department tried to make life easier for him.

Later, as a "fresh-caught" ensign at my first duty station (as an officer), I was the butt of a practical joke by a Chief Petty Officer. It became a short-lived routine for the chief and a couple of others to share coffee in the morning along with the plans for that day. The chief often brought his lunch in a plain brown paper bag. One morning, after the chief left his lunch bag on my desk, I became a bit curious and was about to return it to his office. As I grasped the bag, something moved in it. Curiosity got the better of me and I peered into the bag to find a rather LARGE Red Rat Snake. The chief DID HEAR advice that no ensign had ever expressed to him before. After that, the crew knew I already had 8 1/2 years' enlisted service before being assigned to this duty station. There were no further jokes or harassments.

Response by Sgt Phil Quintana made Apr 28 at 2019 12:02 AM

2019-04-28T00:02:18-04:00

Sir, I don't know what Army you served in but if any of my Marines had done something like that, they'd be in the brig so fast they'da thought their momma had slapped them.
It's one thing to "goof" on a "Butter Bar" but it's quite another to get physical with one.
I'll be honest, there were a very few officers I didn't like but I always respected their office. Besides, tgere were better, subtle ways to "goof" on them. The worst was 2Lt S. I, and the platoon, took to calling him "Mister" S. which was totally appropriate. Sadly, he never learned his lesson.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2019 11:01 PM

2019-09-04T23:01:09-04:00

Right of passage.
I believe it helps to prepare for more difficult situations down the road.
"What fire does not destroy it hardens."

Response by SFC Terry Wilcox made Jan 6 at 2020 9:56 PM

2020-01-06T21:56:38-05:00

Example: I was a SSG Dining Facility Manager, in Korea. My unit had NO Field equipment, not that they needed it - one cannot prepare meals on request forms, having been a cook in Vietnam (TWICE) and knowing the importance of good serviceable equipment. The dining facility was in pretty fair shape. I wanted to be the best - ordered brand new equipment, went around to many of the other facilities and bummed old, worn and even busted equipment. Got the sanitation up, and made a plan for keeping sanitation at peak levels, made sure the meals were balanced, paperwork was in top shape. and Won the Commanding Generals Best Dining Facility. And again for the next quarter - and here comes a brand new "Butter Bar", flashes his rank to me, to let me know HE was in charge - oops! Wrong Answer! No Sir! I'm in charge, The First Sergeant is across the field and he will introduce you to the Captain - Sir. As the LT stomped across the field, I called the First Sergeant - The LT began to get on the First Sergeant about that belligerent SSG in the Mess Hall, he was led into the Commander's office. You could hear the Captain lowering the ears of that poor LT all the way to the Dining Facility. You asked why NCO's give new officers a hard time - SOME officers went to OCS and were taught NCO's were lazy, needed a push to make them do their jobs. SOME NCO's were very efficient and Officers were only needed to sign their name, and proceed to their other duties. I don't mind young officers - so long as there is mutual respect. In short, I took the LT to my office, taught him the paperwork, took him to the kitchen showed him where most violations are written, and what I had done to schedule maintenance and sanitation. He learned NCO's aren't always as bad as he was told. I'm sure there are - not the one he met, one day in Korea.

Response by MAJ Ron Peery made Jan 7 at 2020 12:49 AM

2020-01-07T00:49:47-05:00

Way back in the Jurassic, when I was a new butter bar, I reported to my first unit as the communications platoon leader. My platoon sergeant was a crusty old MSG, SF in Vietnam, with enough shrapnel in his body that the Army had basically put him out to pasture in the Artillery. As I walked into the office, he offered his hand, said "welcome aboard, sir." and pointed to a desk creaking under the weight of manuals for every piece of comm equipment in the battalion, plus a lot of artillery specific stuff, "You should read all of those, and then we can talk about how things work here." During the next week, as I read my homework, I engaged him in conversations about the unit, his experiences, my time in law enforcement communications (which he found to be droll) and the troops. In the process, I also learned that he had lost his SF challenge coin. Well, lost isn't really the word. His ex had sold it. After I finished reading all the exciting publications, I told him about my not very extensive experience as a SMP cadet in a reserve SF detachment. Then I whipped out my coin, slapped it onto his desk, "coin check, Sargeant!" He looked at my as if I had pulled a space alien out of my head. "You son of a......sir. You know I lost mine. I just grinned and said. " I do." And coined him every day for two weeks. I shared the beer with him. He was a damn fine NCO, and I was lucky to have him.

Mild hazing of brand new lieutenants is a tradition, and as long as you don't take it too far it is okay. It was and is a way for troops and officers to feel each other out, gauge their sense of humor and start building trust.

Response by Maj John Bell made Mar 26 at 2020 6:17 PM

2020-03-26T18:17:36-04:00

Maybe times have changed. I've attended a lot of Army Schools and had quite a bit of interaction with Army Officers and SNCO's. I can't imagine something as blatant as taping a LT to a tree. In the Marine Corps some people would be spending time in the brig.

When I was on Barracks duty, the barracks bulldog used to hang out in my office and whenever I went anywhere on base, he usually came along. I do know the troops used to feed him hard-boiled eggs. Ever smelled a bulldog fart fueled by hard-boiled eggs?

Response by SP5 Clyde Carlile made Sep 10 at 2020 6:37 AM

2020-09-10T06:37:37-04:00

Finally, one question I can answer. Because it is fun!!! We never did anything physical to them but we would do things like spread out and make him/her have to salute several times instead of just once for all of us. Little things like that.

Response by SSG Paul Headlee made Sep 10 at 2020 9:38 AM

2020-09-10T09:38:03-04:00

I've had PLs who were extremely well suited to leadership roles and I cheerfully carried out their instructions. I felt like they had earned my support simply due to their leadership style, knowledge and general attitude. They "got it". I've had others who were just unremarkable. In comparison to my first example, the platoons usually attained unremarkable results during their tenure. Another was so bad he was discharged via chapter 13. The platoon was not too hot both in garrison and in the field up until his departure. While I was there, this last platoon saw three additional PLs. The first was very good. The second was among the best I've seen anywhere. The third one had an ego the size of Texas. It was a bad situation. He and I would intentionally be on opposing teams during p.t. when we'd play combat football just so we could lawfully take our aggressions out on each other. The platoon's performance declined under his leadership. A unit is TRULY a reflection of its leadership. In my limited experience I have not seen a Lieutenant with an unsuitable attitude become anything to write home about. This applies equally to enlisted soldiers too (to include NCOs), by the way. If you have the desire to lead and not simply administrate or worse yet rule, the decent NCOs can work with you and teach you what to do and how to do it. If you lack the desire to get to know your soldiers, help them and develop them because you're worried that they might uncover your weaknesses, then you will not reap the benefits of having self-motivated, loyal and trustworthy soldiers to help propel you to greatness. When it works its a beautiful thing. When we are saddled with a little tin pot dictator in a leadership position everyone suffers. There are ways to get the maximum effort from your soldiers. A petty and self-conscious person in a leadership position cannot harness this kind of power. Soldiers want to give their leaders the opportunity to demonstrate that they are the right person for the job. Nobody wants a weak leader. So those are my thoughts as to why some new leaders are subjected to questionable treatment. Not all of it is warranted nor appropriate but remember, these are human beings we're dealing with and not all of us are imbued with good judgment.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Oct 4 at 2021 2:17 PM

2021-10-04T14:17:37-04:00

I had no problems. Maybe because I was in the Armor Branch.