Why do we put up with PTSD and Suicides?

2015-07-13T14:45:12-04:00

This epidemic that ravages our ranks needs to change. So much focus is what's going on in the here and now that will be irrelevant in a few weeks to months, we are losing Soldiers daily. I almost lost a mentor this past weekend. Just a rant

Response by SFC Stephen King made Jul 13 at 2015 2:54 PM

2015-07-13T14:54:03-04:00

SFC Private RallyPoint Member You are correct this is an epidemic and we need to focus on a solution not the cause. To be able to have a matrix to predict a suicide is unrealistic. All people's thought's are just that there own. The US needs to recognize the problem and aggressively try to assist all who need help. Only 2% of society is currently serving. One death is one to many.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Jul 13 at 2015 2:59 PM

2015-07-13T14:59:56-04:00

Having a couple individuals in our circle of trust is vitally important to each one of us...identifying those withdrawing from those groups is the hard part.

What could help us all is identifying some things you might have noticed after the fact to clue us in to the warning signs (without naming names). Thanks SFC Private RallyPoint Member for addressing this topic as it is a very real threat to every organization, regardless of the mission!

Response by SSG Keith Roberson made Jul 13 at 2015 3:07 PM

2015-07-13T15:07:11-04:00

Not enough information and focus placed on identifying the problem until its too late.

Response by CMSgt Mark Schubert made Jul 13 at 2015 3:26 PM

2015-07-13T15:26:42-04:00

I'm glad that you "almost" lost a mentor - I hope it was because you or someone else recognized some symptoms and offered help before it was too late! PTSD is something we ALL need to be cognizant of and have awareness with fact based info along with the spiritual discipline to combat this - and we CAN do it! I hate seeing articles that label PTSD as a hopeless disease and listening to people complain they can't do anything because they've had PTSD for 20 yrs - really? Let me tell you something - you're not trying hard enough! Don't settle! Beat it! Google PTSD well stories and you will find thousands! And no, you don't have it worse than everyone else!
If you want too - you CAN live a meaningful life and manage all your PTSD symptoms - and - have very strong relationships and be a blessing for others.

Response by CPO Joseph Grant made Jul 13 at 2015 6:16 PM

2015-07-13T18:16:57-04:00

We came close to losing a few crew members over the course of three years. When the crew size is 120 that's a high percentage. Unfortunately we looked at the attempted suicides as non-hackers. We looked at the situation as "If I can take it, everyone can". Granted, Submarine duty and Submariners weed out the weak but suicide should not be the end result. Those personnel should have been transferred to the surface fleet before they broke. I think when I retired in 05 that the problem was just being noticed.

Response by Rick Wiseman made Jul 13 at 2015 6:25 PM

2015-07-13T18:25:57-04:00

It's hard when the VA can't recognize their own Dr.s recommendations. The best fix is for us to stand together as a community.....

Response by SGT Matthew Ellis made Jul 13 at 2015 6:28 PM

2015-07-13T18:28:33-04:00

I know of at least 6 guys from both of my deployments who have killed themselves in the last few years. Almost all of them sought help from the VA, ended up the same or worse than when they started, stopped seeing the VA, then killed themselves.

I keep hearing about how all of these guys do it and never seek help, but at least in my experience that seems to be wrong. They try to get help, the help fails them, and they give up. From my experience with the VA and mental health, I think I understand why. The shrinks always seem to be trying to fix the wrong thing and end up just wanting to dope you up on anti-depressants. I won't take them and most of the guys I know won't either.

The solution, I believe, is in mental health professionals stepping back and realize that what they think the problem is, really isn't, and then finding the right one.

I've discussed this with a lot of my guys over the years and to a lot of us, it isn't the horrific crap we've seen and/or done that has us all messed up. It's that we aren't there experiencing it anymore. I know to some it really is an issue dealing with bad stuff that happened and the morality of their actions, but for many of us we just wish we could be back there doing it all over again. Shrinks don't treat that. Not even sure that they can.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2015 6:36 PM

2015-07-13T18:36:57-04:00

All thank you for the insightful feedback, this is an issue I hold near and dear to my heart. I'm glad there are folks out there that share this passion as well. Yes education is necessary not only for troops and leadership, but I think education at the VA, and federal levels of government and including senior military leadership that answer to our elected officials and more funds to help research, diagnose, treat, and maintenance therapies etc could help

Response by SPC Jeffrey Bly made Jul 13 at 2015 7:27 PM

2015-07-13T19:27:03-04:00

Okay. I'll bite. You're exactly right. I agree with you 100%, but what do you propose we do about it? How do we make changes? Where do we start?

I agree that it is necessary to get whatever burden it is off our chests. It's too heavy to carry alone. Who do we tell without seeming weak? Who do we tell without the fear for being locked up for our own safety or for the safety of others? How can such able strong courageous men break down in front of others? How do we avoid the stigma?

These are just a few things off the top of my head, but they are things I have thought of over the years. I'm curious.

Response by LTC John Shaw made Jul 13 at 2015 9:59 PM

2015-07-13T21:59:41-04:00

SFC Private RallyPoint Member Your right! We can't put up with either and our drive and desire need to be zero instances of both. Both are very difficult to identify and complex to resolve which prevents the normal training approaches from being effective.
The training needs to be laser focused on the most at risk soldiers to be more effective. The current training is bludgeon soldiers with one size fits all training. This clearly has limits.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Jul 13 at 2015 11:57 PM

2015-07-13T23:57:40-04:00

I'm glad you didn't lose your mentor!
I have lost Shipmates to suicide and all I can say is, I blamed the Chain of Command for not doing enough (long story but I did and still do blame a particular Master Chief Petty Officer for my friend/Shipmate taking his own life).

Response by SGT Anthony Rossi made Jul 14 at 2015 2:17 AM

2015-07-14T02:17:19-04:00

I believe that one of the greatest causes of PTSD is a result of personal regret. The few soldiers that I have spoken with express emotional struggles over their actions or lack of actions while in service. The military needs to do a better job allowing freedom concerning "rules of engagement" , and then back soldiers up when they are forced to make difficult situations in combat. Things aren't always black and white and a soldier shouldn't walk around in fear and regret of "perceived" past failures.

A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. -James 1:8 HOLY BIBLE

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Jul 14 at 2015 3:48 PM

2015-07-14T15:48:43-04:00

SFC Private RallyPoint Member I am sorry for your loss.

This has been a corporate culture problem in the military, and especially the Army for a very long time. DOD is unwilling and unable to acknowledge that PTSD exists in the ranks. If they did, far too many soldiers (and other active duty personnel) would become non-deployable due to their PTSD/other behavioral health issues. Most of these (but certainly not all) are related to multiple extended combat tours. The extent to which folks have been deployed for combat since Desert Storm is unprecedented. I work with some soldiers with as many as 10 combat tours under their belts.

The official claim is that 24% of veterans have PTSD. I don't buy it. I've seen it in almost every multiple tour vet and in many single tour vets as well. This is of course less common in the conventional Navy, but certainly all Navy SF folks, and those who were seconded to ground units in the war suffer the same fate. I know a submarine Electronics Tech who was assigned as an Army communicator in Iraq for instance.

The problem with the massive denial also has another factor, which is what the Army and other services base their denials on. That is that if they acknowledged and dealt with the PTSD, there would be many goldbrickers who would claim PTSD when healthy, to get out of work. I know that is a bit of a problem, but in reality leadership are burying their heads in the sand.

IF PTSD in the ranks had been dealt with, SSGT Bayles would not have shot up those Afghani civilians, and SGT Russel would not have shot up Camp Liberty, because those two soldiers would never have been deployed in the first place. I wrote to Bear 6 (CG I Corps) at the time, and told him that the chain of command of these two soldiers should be taken to Court Martial as well for malfeasance. He thanked me for my concern and did nothing. What really shocked me is that attorneys for neither of these soldiers raised those issues at Court Martial. Instead they struck Plea Deals to avoid the risk of the Death Penalty. I'm not really sure that Life in the DB at Leavenworth is living...

I truly hope that the new leadership of DOD will be made aware of the true extent of the problem and do something, but do I believe it will happen? OF COURSE NOT!