Why do we tend to refer to our Grades instead of our Rank?

2016-03-24T17:59:05-04:00

CAPOC CSM Running visited my unit last Battle Assembly and among his points made was the fact that we are "Sergeants, Staff Sergeants, Sergeants First Class...not E's" He expounded this point with the observation that E-5, E-6..., is just what is on our LES to know how much we get paid.

His point was that NCO's need to take back our Rank and live up to the values of being Sergeants, not E's.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Mar 24 at 2016 6:01 PM

2016-03-24T18:01:49-04:00

Because sometimes in a joint environment, your rank may be called something different, or civilians you may work with won't know the significance of the name, but when you add a numerical to it, it becomes very clear. 6 is higher than 5. 9 is way higher than 6.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Mar 24 at 2016 6:15 PM

2016-03-24T18:15:47-04:00

1SG Private RallyPoint Member Great question. As a Marine, a Staff Sergeant was a Staff Sergeant and a Gunnery Sergeant a Gunnery Sergeant, etc. As a Soldier a Sergeant could be a Sergeant, a Staff Sergeant, a Sergeant First Class, or a Master Sergeant. While I know and have long since accepted AR 600-9 and its direction about NCO and SNCO ranks, I wonder if we called each other by our "long title" if it would make a difference. Even today, when I enter a USAF installation if the Security Police Officer who checks my ID is a Staff Sergeant or a Technical Sergeant I call them by full rank. I like where the CPOC CSM was headed and agree we are NCOs and SNCOs not E- grades. I also agree with his sentiment, but have long known that there is a huge difference in responsibility, skill, knowledge, life experience, technical and tactical proficiency between a Sergeant and a Master Sergeant. The pride of being an NCO of living the Army values, of being the NCO creed, and of leading by example should be our goal as NCO leaders everyday. Thanks for a great question and for allowing a retiree to respond.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2016 6:18 PM

2016-03-24T18:18:44-04:00

Primarily because the same rank has different names in other services. For example, I always got more attention when I identified myself on the phone as Capt Porter to a Navy person than I did with Army or Air Force personnel.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Mar 24 at 2016 6:27 PM

2016-03-24T18:27:29-04:00

1SG Private RallyPoint Member "First three graders", all with rockers, was commonly used to separate NCOs from the others during the E-1 to E-7 era.

Response by SSgt Dan Montague made Mar 24 at 2016 6:29 PM

2016-03-24T18:29:50-04:00

The Marine Corps is big on addressing by your rank. We don't classify all sergeant ranks (E-5 and up) as just sergeant. We also don't address someone by their rate. Got in a bit of an argument when a Sgt 1st Class insisted on calling me a sergeant when I was a SSgt.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2016 6:30 PM

2016-03-24T18:30:15-04:00

I agree with the sentiments, and wish every NCO lived up to the title and job. However, I don't think it makes a lick of difference what we're called or how we designate our rank. I considered myself a leader while I was a SPC, and when I got stripes I got pay and rank to go with who I already was. Whether someone refers to me as a Sergeant, NonCom or E-5 doesn't make a difference in my mind.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2016 7:19 PM

2016-03-24T19:19:46-04:00

Just a note about the privilege of rank. 1982 during "outchop" from IO Cruise, I was promoted to First Class Petty Officer and was amazed and thankful that the ships captain( USSJFK) gave all E-6's their own mess. Also was designated a Leading Petty Officer when the the Line Division was GIVEN to me......smirk....

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2016 7:42 PM

2016-03-24T19:42:21-04:00

Because we are foolish and don't follow tradition and protocol.

If you are a Sergeant First Class and I am sending somebody to see you I will say, "Go see Sergeant First Class Squires". You should answer the phone the same way. I HATE hearing somebody say E-5/6 etc. Pisses me off to no end.

Response by SGT Frank Leonardo made Mar 24 at 2016 7:50 PM

2016-03-24T19:50:54-04:00

I agree even if In was a sergeant

Response by SFC Everett Oliver made Mar 24 at 2016 8:48 PM

2016-03-24T20:48:02-04:00

In 22 years I don't remember calling or using the E status, with the exception of talking with a civilian. Even today If i am talking to a PFC they are addressed as PFC. a 1Sg is still a 1Sg. A Corporal is still a Corporal. And I am Still a SFC, retired maybe but I use my retired rank as my formal means of address, I figure i earned it.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Mar 24 at 2016 10:03 PM

2016-03-24T22:03:04-04:00

I have never heard of others calling SGTs by the E grade.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Mar 24 at 2016 10:36 PM

2016-03-24T22:36:48-04:00

I'm a Sailor, We refer to each other by our Rates (Job Specialty), I'm used to being called CTO1 or CT1.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2016 12:20 AM

2016-03-25T00:20:56-04:00

Someone spent serious money to make a challenge coin with "NCO'S" on it??? SMFH!!!

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Mar 25 at 2016 12:35 AM

2016-03-25T00:35:46-04:00

Your sergeant major could have made his point a little stronger by including corporals in the discussion.

Authority goes with the rank, pay and pay-related benefits go with the numeric grade. It's a distinction just as subtly important as the difference between being a soldier and an employee.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2016 7:44 AM

2016-03-25T07:44:03-04:00

I asked this question a long time ago and a lot of people misunderstood or didn't agree with it.
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/pay-grade-vs-rank-title

Pay Grade Vs. Rank/Title | RallyPoint

How do you feel about SMs, especially Leaders, addressing or referring to someone by pay grade instead of rank or position?  Are you guilty of it?  Do you correct SMs on it? If you read the post SSG Joaquin Goicoechea wrote, you may understand my post better: "I am in passing and I over hear SSG A speaking to SSG B about a SSG C and instead of using his rank they refer to SSG C as "that E6". If this in fact is what you are...

Response by SFC Marcus Belt made Mar 25 at 2016 7:53 AM

2016-03-25T07:53:33-04:00

Absolute rules are rarely useful as often as we'd like. If clarity requires using the paygrade (SSG to SSgt), then use it. If military courtesy requires using the address, use that. If formality requires using the title, then use that.

Why is this a thing?

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2016 9:18 AM

2016-03-25T09:18:09-04:00

So many people get wrapped around the axel about labels. Effective communication is the key. If you say E5 instead of Sergeant, but everyone in the room knows what you mean, then you have effectively communicated. Those who want to point out the differences in philosophical meanings between the two when there is absolutely no confusion on the subject do so only to irritate others. Of course, there is the AR 600-20 that specifically outlines how to address each rank and says that you are not to refer to a Sergeant as an E5. When someone refers to me as a W4 instead or CW4 or Mr. I don't care. However, when they call me by my first name, that's when I get a little irritated.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2016 10:45 AM

2016-03-25T10:45:54-04:00

I understand the sentiment. In most cases I see pay grades used for expediency purposes. For example this duty position requires someone "E6 and above" or "we have an E6 vacancy in 2nd Platoon." When I refer to a specific person its typically by their rank, within the parameters of our customs and courtesies. I don't feel it's appropriate to address an NCO by their last name only in most circumstances. They earned their rank just like I did.

With that said, I'm curious how many NCOs find it acceptable to refer to Lieutenants as "LT," "butterbar," or "Looey." Is that really any less offensive than referring to an NCO as an E6?

Response by MSG Mitch Dowler made Mar 25 at 2016 12:00 PM

2016-03-25T12:00:54-04:00

When will the Air Force stop calling an E-5 Staff Sergeant?

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Mar 25 at 2016 12:57 PM

2016-03-25T12:57:05-04:00

Worked in the joint service environment for many years. Use of E and O grades from time to time is useful because there isn't clear rank equivalency among the Services. The divergence between the land and sea services is greatest in the enlisted grades. The Air Force, Army, and Marines are the same in the officer grades (all Lieutenant Colonels are O-5s, but some O-5s are Commanders). Use of grades is useful when regulations specify certain privileges or benefits based on pay grade. For example, the household good weight allowance is pay-grade based.

Response by SFC Benjamin Harrison made Mar 27 at 2016 11:28 AM

2016-03-27T11:28:47-04:00

Perhaps the rule that states Sergeants, Staff Sergeants, Sergeants First Class, and Master Sergeants will all be referred to as Sergeant. The Army devalued the rank when they did this.

You have people calling you on the phone and you answer Sergeant Harrison, not Sergeant First Class Harrison. Now the caller asks "What kind of Sergeant, E5, E6, E7?" Like wise the typical response would be E7.

Perhaps it's time to adopt the Marine Corps standard of fully stating the rank. Unfortunately the rule is in the book for the Army and until that is changed, this will continue to be an issue.

Response by SFC Shane Funkhouser made Mar 27 at 2016 11:47 AM

2016-03-27T11:47:13-04:00

When I joined the army after my time in the Marine Corps, one of my hardest adjustments was calling everyone E-5 - E-7 sergeant. One of the first things the Corps drilled into us is you earned your rank. I felt disrespectful calling a sergeant first class a sgt. He earned it why not call him by his rank? Even after earning the rank myself and being called sarge for years it still gets to me not because I felt disrespected by my troops but because it's just another short cut. When you take to many short cuts you lose something and I feel like the army has lost alot of its pride.

Response by SGT Justin Singleton made Mar 27 at 2016 12:34 PM

2016-03-27T12:34:59-04:00

I have never heard anyone refer to pay grade, unless it was "SGT Singleton, E5 type."

Response by MSgt Billy McDonough made Mar 27 at 2016 2:21 PM

2016-03-27T14:21:27-04:00

Must be an Army thing, never heard this from USAF, Marine, or Navy NCOs

Response by SSG Leon Drew made Mar 27 at 2016 3:05 PM

2016-03-27T15:05:18-04:00

With all the fat sloppy undisciplined soldiers and NCO's you want to whine about this? The entire NCO corps needs to grow a pair and take back their authority and pride! It makes me cringe every time I see a Pvt/Spc tell a NCO to " Fuck off"! No self respect or mutual respect left!

Response by Capt Walter Miller made Mar 27 at 2016 3:27 PM

2016-03-27T15:27:43-04:00

In my experience not applicable to the Marine Corps.

Walt

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2016 4:02 PM

2016-03-27T16:02:51-04:00

A better answer is that as professionals we learn each other's ranks. No service does a good job of this which causes us to default to pay grade to compare when in joint environments. I will self admit that I am only familiar with O and SNCO ranks for all services, but I do not have a good grasp of NCO and below outside of USAF.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2016 4:52 PM

2016-03-27T16:52:59-04:00

I was a SSGT and I was an SSGT. But, one of me outranked the other. 6 to 5.

Response by CSM Michael Chavaree made Mar 27 at 2016 6:11 PM

2016-03-27T18:11:19-04:00

Even in a Joint unit I would use rank. When explaining someone else I would say "Air Force Master Sergeant Smith called", no confusion there, and it was never a big deal.

Response by PO1 RIchard Petty made Mar 27 at 2016 6:18 PM

2016-03-27T18:18:40-04:00

I am confused with Air Force rank structure when it comes to E-6 and above and my work sometimes we DET to Air Force bases and once you they get to E-7 it comes with a Diamond or not, so I am confused to what to call them. I agree with most people the Army should call them by what there title is SGT, SSGT, SFC, etc.... The Marines are doing it the right way, and they Navy its usually by what our job is or MOS like me AO1(Aviation Ordnanceman First Class Petty Officer) E-6, but there are times in the Navy the you call someone E-4 Doe or what every there ranks is because they deserve to be called that for whatever reason.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Mar 27 at 2016 10:50 PM

2016-03-27T22:50:24-04:00

Marines don't.

Response by SP5 Hank Vandenburgh PhD made Mar 28 at 2016 12:20 AM

2016-03-28T00:20:33-04:00

I agree. But those of us who were Sp5s and Sp6's (darned few of the latter) could get kind of shut out. They should have gone to the present system in the 50s and 60s. "Specialist" sounds dorky, especially when you were in an NCO slot, as I was three times as an Sp5.

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Mar 28 at 2016 1:22 AM

2016-03-28T01:22:04-04:00

Some of the problem in the Army may have started when they added the two super grades (E-8 &E-9) in 1958 and reduced enlisted ranks by one paygrade but let people keep their stripes. This resulted in two different ranks having the same paygrade. As a result in the sixties an E-6 could be either a Staff Sergeant or a Sergeant First Class and a Master Sergeant could be either an E-7 or an E8 depending upon date of rank. Same thing at lower ranks until promotions and retirement fixed the problem. At Ft. Jackson we had lots of E-7 Master Sergeants and E-6 SFC's. Add to that the fact that frocking was extremely common in some units and and there were a hell of a lot of people whose rank and paygrade did not match up. The Specialist ranks added more confusion. The Army made it worse by stating in the regulations that within the Army all specialists ranked between PFC and Corporal but when dealing with other branches paygrade was to be used to determine who outranked who. As a result of all of that many Army forms asked for paygrade. I realize that time has cured much of the confusion but by by then people were used to using paygrade. Old habits tend to stick around even when there is no longer any reason for them.

Response by SSG John Jensen made Mar 29 at 2016 1:41 AM

2016-03-29T01:41:30-04:00

as a lowly SSG in the Bde HQs referred to myself as a Pvt E-6

Response by 1SG Jeffrey Mullett made Mar 29 at 2016 6:05 AM

2016-03-29T06:05:14-04:00

He is exactly right.
An NCO can't be an NCO, if he acts like a SPC 5...

Response by SSG Chris Garabitos made Mar 29 at 2016 7:15 AM

2016-03-29T07:15:49-04:00

What the CAPOC CSM is referring to is simply following regulations. AR 600-20 dated 6 Nov 14: paragraph 1-6 c. "..the numerical pay grade will not be used as a form of address or title in place of the proper title of address of grade. A Soldier holding the numerical pay grade of E–5 will be addressed as “Sergeant,” not as “E–5”.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2016 7:21 AM

2016-03-29T07:21:28-04:00

SFC Squires, what do you think about his statement? Do you agree or disagree?

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2016 9:33 AM

2016-03-29T09:33:38-04:00

No issues or discussions brother. I'm around both military and DoD civilian personnel so we tend to be respectful to eachother. My new Amn coming in understand the value of discipline and respect of rank. I do my very best to keep the atmosphere around my shop relaxed and cool. Let's face it, I work in a high pace environment here in Okinawa. I think everyone who's been here knows how busy it gets. So I keep my Amn focused and ready to start the day. I just think people have too much time in their hands finding the things that are wrong, instead of finding ways to fix or mediate them. Control what you can control.

Response by SFC Antonio Nieto made Mar 29 at 2016 10:12 AM

2016-03-29T10:12:16-04:00

Army command policy is very clear on how to address other NCO's, mostly is ego that gets in the way on how to properly address each other, worse is when senior NCO's call each other by first name

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2016 10:31 AM

2016-03-29T10:31:39-04:00

Coming from the Marine Corps to the Army Reserve the first thing I noticed, and was annoyed by it, was that every one just referred to themselves as "sergeant". They didn't use their full rank. Then I noticed they would mention their pay grade to let you know which sergeant they were. I just assumed it was an Army thing. I always felt if you are wearing the rank you earned the rank. Be proud of that rank.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2016 11:01 AM

2016-03-29T11:01:20-04:00

This Observation of our "E-Grade" goes back to the Vietnam era. The Specialist Rank from E-4 went all the way to E-8. You Addressed a Specialist as such even though the held the rank of E-whatever. I saw one Spc.8 in 1983. All of that changed just before the Gulf War. The Army needs to get rid of the Spc-4 rank.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2016 11:27 AM

2016-03-29T11:27:17-04:00

My question to all. Do you want to be adrressed by your expertise or how much money you make? Being addressed by your pay grade can be a slap sometimes, meaning one may not see you as worthy of holding the rank. I know a few SGTs and SSGs and I wonder "How in the hell"? Then it comes to me, that's what happens when you chase grades and not the prestige of being the best NCO for your SMs. Sadly to say, it's systemic because it emulated. Currently I'm asked "Are you up for the E8 Board" No, I'm up for the MSG Selection Board or Senior Enlisted Board. Pay is nice, but it's not why I do what I do. Just my two cents.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2016 2:28 PM

2016-03-29T14:28:19-04:00

As a Sailor, and the Career Counselor for Bravo Company (Seabees; we've organized based off the Marine rifle platoon, to a lesser extent), one of the things I tell my junior Sailors is that when you're an E-whatever, you're someone that simply collects the pay and benefits of that paygrade. When you're a Petty Officer 3d / 2d / 1st Class or a Chief, Senior Chief or Master Chief Petty Officer, you're a professional. Ergo, "Be a professional, not just a paygrade."

Why anyone would want to insult themselves by simply referring to their paygrade is beyond me.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2016 2:53 PM

2016-03-29T14:53:54-04:00

He is correct. You are not a pay grade, you are an NCO. A senior NCO at that.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2016 3:43 PM

2016-03-29T15:43:04-04:00

Alright, your question caught my attention. So here's my opinion on this. First, over 10 years of war in which the officer corps got into the weeds of NCO business, diluted the ability of Sergeants of all ranks to actually to do their job, which is to lead, mentor, and train soldiers. Officers provide the mission, task, requirements, etc. It is the job of the NCO to make sure it happens IAW Army standards or better. Let us get back to this mentality across the Army. Sergeants sometimes do the job of the officers. We expect that. Officers do not do the jobs of the Sergeants. Stay out of our business. We're not Non-Commissioned privates. I'm not just an E-8, I'm a Master Sergeant, and that means something. Second, over 10 years of war has resulted in too many junior, inexperienced Soldiers, in being promoted to Sergeant, Staff Sergeant, and Sergeant First Class sooner than they should have. Many are not ready to be a Sergeant at two to three years. This has resulted in too many weak NCO's in the corps, who are no longer able to challenge, mentor, and guide officers the correct way, so that they stay out of NCO business. My personal observation is that the average Soldier requires four years of soldiering before they are ready to be a leader of both peers and subordinates. There are exceptions, but not many. We need to get back into the business of leading, mentoring, and training junior enlisted to be Soldiers who are disciplined, respectful, professional, and technically and tactically proficient. Then we need to develop our junior Non-Commissioned Officers in being leaders.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2016 5:09 PM

2016-03-29T17:09:12-04:00

From what i noticed in the past 12 years is that there has been a change... we've all seen it. A LOT of Soldiers driving factor for promotion is/was the pay, I'm sure you've heard "I can't wait to get my E5!" A majority see it as a Pay raise and don't see it as an increase in responsibility. Nor do they see and consider the responsibilities they will be taking on. You can tell the difference between an E5 and a SGT. Just my two cents.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2016 10:06 PM

2016-03-29T22:06:23-04:00

I have no problem with either, really. Some people just 'see' differently. Each rank is paired with a pay grade, and some people's minds just lean towards the 'E' side. That's just how they are. I surmise that most mean no harm when they refer to you or others as an E-5, or 6, or whatever. They're just wired differently.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2016 10:08 PM

2016-03-29T22:08:12-04:00

I understand the issue, AND I understand how it can be almost insulting. Staff Sergeant is a rank; E-6 is a pay grade, with no respect for the individual who's earned it. In short, there are 2 primary reasons for this: 1. It simplifies things (especially in the Army, since every NCO "can" be referred to as "Sergeant") to speak of someone in terms of their paygrade, rather than rank, and 2. It also helps make the distinction clear for other branches when referring to someone of higher or lower military status.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2016 7:04 AM

2016-03-30T07:04:39-04:00

I've never understood why someone would rather be addressed by his/her "E"nlisted grade (designated by the "E") than the rank. The rank is a part of our military history, with ranks being designated in some form or another in each branch of service since the establishment of the branch; the "E", "W", or "O" grades have historically been more associated with pay and entitlements... As anyone associated with the Navy can attest, once an individual makes Chief Petty Officer (E7), it is a well known insult to address that person as an E7 and not a Chief...

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2016 7:55 AM

2016-03-30T07:55:37-04:00

Typically in the aircraft maintenance world when talking to other NCOs it refers to one's attitude and how they treat their people....for example an Air Force E9 is a Chief Master Sergeant. He'll be addressed as Chief out of respect for his rank however when talking about him with other NCOs he's referred to as a Chief if he takes care of his people and an E9 if he seems to be still looking to get promoted

Response by CCMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2016 12:04 PM

2016-03-30T12:04:32-04:00

I agree!! Pay grades should be used only on admin issues!! We are NCOs and should be call by our ranks!!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2016 1:54 PM

2016-03-30T13:54:54-04:00

Our ranks are historically and traditionally bound. Our pay grade is not who we are! For example, two E-4's are not the same: one is a Corporal, and the other is a Specialist.
What you are, who are you and what you do (your rank) is not your pay grade.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2016 5:23 PM

2016-03-30T17:23:54-04:00

What a concept.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2016 8:17 PM

2016-03-30T20:17:13-04:00

The primary reason is because we have five branches of Service, including the Coast Guard, and there are different ranks associated with most pay grades. However, traditionally, within individual units you should be addressing one another by rank and I find it odd that the CSM would have to point this out. After all, your units NCOs should already be inforcing this standard unless it is Tri or Quad service like many units in the MDW.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2016 2:00 PM

2016-04-02T14:00:11-04:00

I agree with some others for the outside of the specific service as it translates better between such asa the Navy E-6 and an Army E-6. It translates if you don't know what level their rank is without looking it up. Know still not an official way to call them by that. For referencing I agree!. Now within your own service Army soldiers and Officers should never call each other by their grades unless referencing pay systems