Why do you think some soldiers don't reenlist? Could it be toxic leadership, lack of potential, or lack of motivation?

SPC(P) Gildardo Navarro — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 01:57:01 -0400

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Oct 22 at 2016 2:09 AM

SPC Erich Guenther — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 02:09:03 -0400

"Toxic Leadership"? Give me an example of that as I am just not understanding what it means. Old guy here, new term for me. In my time people did not enlist again because they did not like how the Army operated OR they wanted to get out for college. However, one of my best friends hated the Army but enlisted again and again and again. He went 18D when I ETS'd. Retired in 2005 as a MSG.

Response by Cpl Christopher Bishop made Oct 22 at 2016 2:38 AM

Cpl Christopher Bishop — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 02:38:20 -0400

I can only speak for myself.

A lot of people pegged me to become that career Marine. Turned out that first, the Prior Service recruiters didn't do a great job (Of course they tell you if you stay in, they'll promote you to E5---not really much of an "offer" if you already have the cutting score/promotio points based on your records alone), and then I find out my records are all screwed up. The Grunt vs POG debacle isn't simmered down any when the Grunts are out there pushing enemy lines backward, yet we can't get Admin to push a pencil or keyboard forward. I distinctly remember having my own meltdown about it at the time...and I will say looking back, I probably took it a little too personally and went a little too far...by telling the Gunny who ran a "3 weeks behind" admin unit...that since he wore more stripes than awards, one would think he would've been proficient in his 19 year Admin MOS by now...clearly he hadn't done much else.

They actually told me I had to return a full week AFTER my Discharge Date just to pick up my IRR ID Card. On my time...they didn't even comp me for hotel/fuel to hang around one coast for a week while I'm trying to get to the other coast and get on with my life. When I returned, they asked me again (this is 7 days after my Discharge now) why I was getting out. I said Well....A) there are some who cling to the career only because they don't know what else they would do with themselves---like that Gunny over there---and I do distinctly remember one of the first times in Boot Camp I ever heard a DI say "This ain't the friggin Boy Scouts" I thought...yeah that's true, and some of these people aren't even that good...apparently.

In the short answer, Id have to go with Toxic Leadership.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Oct 22 at 2016 7:38 AM

Capt Tom Brown — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 07:38:13 -0400

It would be nice if they had data from everyone who did not reenlist or ship over. Each person has their own story, but they could probably isolate the main causes & see if anything could be done. Root causes like you suggest are certainly reasons. When I got out no one cared one way or the other. Once finding out I was not going to reup, I was pretty well ignored by everyone. I always laugh at the old term 'reenlistment NCO' who did nothing but inquire if a person intended to reenlist, and if not forgot about you.

Response by 1SG Al Brown made Oct 22 at 2016 8:39 AM

1SG Al Brown — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 08:39:12 -0400

For most, enlistment was the first scary adventure; a chance to get away from home and become an adult. Some want to get promoted and stay; some don't, and leave in lieu of a bar to re-enlist. Which is good, because the military services operate via the labor of E4s and below. New E1s have to be recruited, because most E4s have too much ambition to stay E4s after 24 months. Even if they wanted to stay, for the most part, they can't.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Oct 22 at 2016 8:50 AM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 08:50:36 -0400

I think there are a multitude of reasons: not what they expected, found another direction in life, met a mate, family, better job, better pay, doesn't want to conform and the list goes on. These and along with the ones in the title. It is like when I was on the trail, I'd ask Privates why they enlisted - there were multitudes of reasons.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 9:34 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 09:34:44 -0400

The military is just not for everyone. In some cases the goals set for the military service have been reached, e.g college money, acquire a skill, etc. In others an opportunity open up in the civilian sector.

Back on my day they no longer had to fear the draft after serving.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 2:30 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 14:30:47 -0400

I think some of it is expectation. You join expecting something and then it isn't what you expected.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 3:07 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 15:07:04 -0400

Maybe because they just can't cope or are not cutout for the military structure and discipline.

Response by PO1 John Meyer, CPC made Oct 22 at 2016 4:02 PM

PO1 John Meyer, CPC — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 16:02:19 -0400

I'll take on the toxic leadership...

I was at command that had such a horrible reenlistment rate that the Navy IG paid us a visit. E-6 and below were broken up into 3 groups of 100 (included in the groups were some spouses because not all of the visit concentrated on reenlistment rates). One of the questions asked was imagine this is your first and only duty station, how many of you would reenlist. One person raised his hand and there were several of us in the room that had been to more than one duty station. No one said it at the time, but we all knew the reason since we talked about it later. The main reason was because of toxic leadership. Oh... and I did ask around to others in the other groups and they said no one raised their hand. Says something, no? But I digress a bit....

Toxic leadership can occur for different reasons. As far as I'm concerned, the number one reason has to be when leadership is more interested in itself and furthering its career and less with its subordinates and their development; even just the sense of not caring can cause a toxic environment, even if it isn't true.

I have to agree with others that say that some people enlist only to find out enlisting wasn't what they thought it would be. I ran into a young lady in my last command like that. She said she came to the command (her first) ready to hit the deck running and full of motivation. She said now her only motivation was to get out and on to other things.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2016 4:14 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Oct 2016 16:14:27 -0400

As a Specialist, I witnessed three GREAT Soldiers ETS because their Team Leader (E-5) was constantly complaining about what it was like "being an NCO." Everything he spoke about was negative and he always told them they should get out while they can. Another reason I am aware of is the false impression that money will be better in the civilian sector. This is not always the case but most Soldiers do not realize the benefits they have with the military. I am currently outlining this topic to write a book on the financial influence on first-term Soldiers. Everything boils down to money.

Response by SPC(P) Gildardo Navarro made Oct 23 at 2016 5:53 PM

SPC(P) Gildardo Navarro — Sun, 23 Oct 2016 17:53:00 -0400

i agree with everything everyone saying here,most of my buddies here in hawaii are calling quits because they can't handle their leadership no more. Even the nco's here are calling it quits. Don't know if it's being hawaii or just they aren't ''fit'' for the army anymore

Response by SGT David T. made Oct 24 at 2016 8:09 AM

SGT David T. — Mon, 24 Oct 2016 08:09:38 -0400

It varies based on the individual. In my case, I got tired of deploying and didn't trust my chain of command. I also outgrew it. I literally dreaded going to work everyday so it was time to go.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Oct 24 at 2016 5:41 PM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Mon, 24 Oct 2016 17:41:35 -0400

I believe several reasons.
1.) Millennials are tech savvy, want an explanation, got have it right now, on my own without someone telling me what to do type of people. GenXr's are Do it because I told you to, tech dumb, I can wait for the right answer type of people. Both have there merits but are having a real hard time bridging the gap between the two and millennials are walking away because of instant gratification versus trying to work it out. Older leaders aren't listening to the youngers ones ideas...that leads me to toxic.
2.) There are some toxic leaders and some that are referred to as toxic leaders. The toxic leaders are the ones that are all about themselves and taking ideas from their subordinates and using them for themselves to get ahead and throwing others under the bus when accountability comes around. The ones that are referred to as toxic are the ones that are taking action and are seen as toxic to a unit when actions without explanation are taken and change occurs. Need to do away with the first and modify the seond to get rid of the toxic talk.
I do think that younger people lose their motivation quicker than older folks just because of the instant gratification electronic mode we live in. However, it is incumbent on us as leaders to figure that out and use that to the units advantage and keep this generation motivated. If we don't we will lose more and more solid good people.
Lastly, some people just leave because the military is just not for everyone. Great on those that served for a initial tour and got out...my hat is off to them because they still did more than a majority of this nation did. Sometimes opportunities are just better for them and their families and we can't fault them for that.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 6:57 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 06:57:11 -0400

I believe there is some merit in saying that some people refrain from reenlisting because of toxic leadership. To continue to progress to the next rank, there are things that a specialist cannot do without the consent of the leadership such as schools. In a toxic environment, schools are not handed out evenly. Additionally, in a toxic environment, soldiers are not always awarded for their accomplishments, which also hinders career progression.
I do not believe that anyone suffers from the lack of potential, everyone has it in them to reach for the stars. The lack of motivation to reach their potential is an almost chronic issue in the lower enlisted these days. Ask yourself this, when was the last time you witnessed a group of soldiers doing something that would eventually benefit them like area beautification without being forced to do it? Or, how many E-5's are you aware of that actually call their squad together after duty hours just to talk with them about other things besides work? How can they know their soldiers without that interaction?

Response by CH (COL) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 8:53 AM

CH (COL) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 08:53:41 -0400

There are as many reasons as there are soldiers. In very few cases is it a lack of anything other than the desire to stay in at that point in time. ROTC and West Point get a decent share of prior service personnel and I don't think they would say that it was a bad decision for those soldiers to not re-enlist.

Response by SPC Geoffrey Jenkins made Oct 25 at 2016 10:15 AM

SPC Geoffrey Jenkins — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 10:15:37 -0400

Many questions and fewer answers,when my unit was activate to go to Iraq many soldiers in my unit did not reenlist because of the fear of being killed,hell we were a infantry company who trained for this sort of thing.I think family plays a big part of their decision not to reenlist.I reenlisted when I was on my first deployment to Iraq,I was stationed at Camp Scania 2005/2006.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 11:43 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 11:43:21 -0400

The factor I see the most is that the Soldier feels they are not cared for, not like cared for as a child, but as a valued member of the team. They are either denied a school (we CANNOT afford to have you go), denied basic benefits (education, health, family), or just stuck with no opportunity to advance. Leaders must get at the root cause and fix it.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 11:44 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 11:44:10 -0400

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 12:16 PM

SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 12:16:12 -0400

As someone about to ETS, I'd say that it's a combination of a lot of things. I think toxic leadership is far and above the leading cause that people chose to run for the door; however, that's not the only reason. For me, it was simply that I didn't feel like it was the right path for me. I don't regret in any way my choice to join; I'm glad I did, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat if I had it to do over again. I see it as looking forward. I could spend the next 11 years stagnant in my civilian life, tied down by the Army, and maybe find a day when I could progress in my Army life, or I can put a chapter of my life behind me and pursue what I want to for my family and I, without the constant life, pay, etc. problems delivered monthly by Mother Army.

The big issue is that people enlist when they are young, and their lives change majorly in that first 8 years. I enlisted late, at 20, and still in my first contract went through a marriage, a child being born, the death of a mother-in-law, and a home foreclosure being among the most significant changes. I am not the unattached kid with no future plans that joined anymore. I'd say, short of toxic leadership, this is likely the leading cause of ETS.

Response by SSgt Boyd Welch made Oct 25 at 2016 12:35 PM

SSgt Boyd Welch — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 12:35:31 -0400

First enlistment? Probably didn't turn out as hoped for. 2nd and consequent enlistments, usually a toxic bitter leader, with poor people skills.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 12:45 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 00:45:57 -0400

In my 12 years of service i have seen it to be a little of all three but the majority in recent years i would have to say is uptempo down sizing and details. I have seen a major shift in army priority over years and this reactive army we are in now i believe takes the wind out of anyones sails.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 5:09 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 05:09:46 -0400

When we make the decision to re enlist or get out for many of us even it nobody wants a acknowledge it is a business decision. There are other elements that come to play also like can I deal with the military life style any longer? The military is not for everyone and there are sacrifices that not everyone is ready to make. There is toxic leadership that can overwhelm first term enlistees who in a lot of instances this is their first job. There is also the free market where young enlistees might see a better future for themselves. I would never tell any leader to baby a first termer so that they re enlist but as an NCO who has been in the civilian world I do talk to younger soldiers in my case so that they have an idea of what to expect.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 5:19 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 05:19:27 -0400

There are a lot of reasons I know my first time in I was fully eligible but really after I said I was getting out everyone just left me alone, no mentor ship, no discussions about pros and cons nothing. I was 22 and just left only to come back in at 41 because the wars were going on and I saw the pros of military service from not only pride but it made good business sense also. We do not have enough leaders who will show the business side of being in the military to a first term enlisted. There are also other reasons people get out after one contract maybe the lifestyle is not for them. As leaders we have to remember that the young bucks are our replacements and like it or not we need. To mentor them.

Response by Sgt Sal Hirto made Oct 26 at 2016 7:55 AM

Sgt Sal Hirto — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 07:55:44 -0400

i was getting to the age where i felt i needed to do 20 or GTFO, i chose the latter, given plenty of opportunity due to my military training, i have also had the privilege to hire separating veterans as well

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 8:17 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 20:17:42 -0400

Joined to be an infantry door kicking mean lean killing machine! Graduated OSUT and sent to my first duty station where the war is not on terrorism but on eye pro and mustaches!! Where First Sergeants now tell us that it's no longer about killing the enemy it's about looking good in front of the BC and Sergeant Major "hooah"? POLITICS where everyone passes basic training and at your duty station you get stomped out because you scuffed someone up instead of writing out a negative counseling that does nothing more than clarify the said soldier is garbage. gets held to the same standard whether you are Ranger Rick or Private Pile!

Response by SPC(P) Gildardo Navarro made Oct 26 at 2016 11:00 PM

SPC(P) Gildardo Navarro — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 23:00:17 -0400

Stuff like this is why some soldiers don't reenlist

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2018 8:56 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 03 Nov 2018 20:56:56 -0400

It's just the amount of bs I have to put up with is not worth it anymore. Just being in the national guard I've put up with bs. Losing out of job opportunities and promotions at work because of my service obligations. Being belittled and treated like a child because some sergeant wants to stroke their ego despite being 29(I joined at 24). Not being able to get passed e4 because my mos (25b) is over strength and there's only 2 or 3 e5 positions in the state. Being on deployment with toxic leadership which makes the whole experience miserable despite being in Europe which is pretty much a 9 month AT. After getting some IT certifications a few months ago I've gotten job opportunities for when i return back to the usa that would pay way more than im making as an e4. Being worked way harder than my peers, even performing their job function at times. Even if i stayed in the arng for 20 years i would have to wait 16 yrs after that to draw the few hundred bucks a month of retirement. Injuring my shoulder and the doctors saying its not hurt despite getting a mri showing that i have a torn labrum. Overall its just not worth it. I got my job experience, my resume building and one deployment. Its time for me to walk

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2020 1:54 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Mar 2020 01:54:16 -0400

The people who stay in are the ones who lack potential and they bring other people down as they rank up. I'd say another thing would be nco,s or co,s using their rank to obtain pleasure or profit. I'm not saying all leaders are bad becouse they are not. On another note favoritism is at an all time high I see it every day, if I was to do or say things other people do I would be crucified so that would be my explanation on why I'm not staying in if rather work at a factory again.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2020 3:41 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 Mar 2020 15:41:21 -0400

I tell every soldier thats asks me this do whats best for you. Your the only one that knows that and make an informed decision. Most first term SMs are making a decision for their future. Give them the information and resources and let them make the decision as what they percieve as in there best intrest. Sometimes thats staying in and sometimes its getting out. There is bad leadership at all levels and in every profession the Army is no different. The military could make somethings easier like coming back in at a later time and or transfering amount the reserves or national guard back to active and vice versa. I've never understood the logic of paper work hurdles that SM face that are fully qualified and want to come back in and or transfer that make it next to impossibile to move as ones life circumstances and goals change. The military gives alot of lip service to fixing this but the sheer burcracy is still astounding for a 21st century organization.