Why do you think we are not enforcing appearance standards? By that I mean and target the overweight and overweight looking in uniform.

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Oct 2013 15:44:34 -0400

Let's face it. We see so many people in uniform that are clearly overweight, and if not that, at least they look like they're overweight! My mother told me she was in shock when she saw a Soldier that was big. She's a civilian and is very proud of the Service and what all service members do. I just couldn't understand how as the First Responders that we are in times of conflict, we can represent such an unhealthy image.

"And you wanna be a Soldier?"

Response by MAJ Samuel Weber made Oct 29 at 2013 3:58 PM

MAJ Samuel Weber — Tue, 29 Oct 2013 15:58:15 -0400

I think a lot of that is going to change. I won't make excuses but I remember my commander and 1SG's frustration when they tried to chapter some of our overweight Soldiers. Now that the Army is downsizing I think you will find it easier to Chapter those APFT and AWCP failures. I think we will also see a spike in ART 15's and NCO will be more empowered to make corrections instead of fearing the SHARP/EO reps.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2013 4:59 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Oct 2013 16:59:37 -0400

Because chaptering someone out of the Army has become such a nightmare of paperwork and administrative BS that falls squarely on the unit, burdening them with additional work and responsibility. If the Army could streamline the exit process, we could easily make the cuts they're asking for.

Response by SGM Keith Baughman made Oct 29 at 2013 5:01 PM

SGM Keith Baughman — Tue, 29 Oct 2013 17:01:27 -0400

There are weight standards in the Military..its the leadership function to enforce. It seems to me when all you are doing is standing down or getting ready for deployments with smaller amounts of soldiers, time for leadership enforcement gets overwhelmed by mission acomplishment.

Retired ARMY SGM

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2013 5:18 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Oct 2013 17:18:45 -0400

I truly believe it's because we've turned into such a PC and excepting society that people feel as if they will not be judged. Many areas in life that were once deemed unsavory are now common place because we're worried about everyone's feelings. Back in the day a man even the poor ones wore a dress shirt or jacket when out and about town. Now they wear pajama pants and what not. Teen pregnancy was not rampant because fear of judgment kept numbers down. There are too many reasons to list for people being overweight, but I do know many are looked down upon for judging the overweight.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2013 5:43 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Oct 2013 17:43:49 -0400

You can't really try to target someone that "looks" overweight when in fact that soldier might be well within the guidelines of AR600-9. If you target someone just because they look over weight it can look as if you are out to get that soldier. Some do look sloppy in uniform but that doesn't make them overweight.. already been thru that issue where I'm at. It's one thing if they are actually over weight, but it's another if the look overweight but are still well within standards..

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2013 5:49 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Oct 2013 17:49:57 -0400

We need to do like the Marine Corp does and if you appear to be over weight in your uniform you are discharged.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 30 at 2013 12:59 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Oct 2013 00:59:01 -0400

Unfortunately, some of those Soldiers that "look overweight" are the same ones that can ruck for days and pull a vehicle out of the ditch with a tow strap and their bare hands. There's a difference between looking big and looking overweight.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 30 at 2013 10:41 AM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Oct 2013 10:41:47 -0400

The AWCP is going back to the way it used to be. I know when I tried to put people out for the APFT or AWCP the highers were the ones that would not let it go through, even though they never passed an APFT since they was at the unit along with the AWCP. They said that we need to put them in the remedial training and get them to pass. They were in that program for more than 2 years and was still getting the same answer. I think some highers do not do it because they think it makes them look bad. I am a firm believer if a Soldier does not want to improve and no matter what you do to help push them come closer to the go, they won't budge. Like the saying say you can take a horse to water but you can not make him drink. Now that the Army is downsizing I do believe it will go back to normal. On the other hand as others has said it if someone looks like they are over weight the command can get them to get tested to make sure and as long as they pass they are good. I am not a fan of the tape system because I get tapped every time come close within two percent each time and then you get the ones that are twice to three times the size of me come under 5% because how big their neck is. They need to go to the accurate type of body fat measurement, yes it would take longer but it would be closer to what actually body fat the person is.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 30 at 2013 12:18 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Oct 2013 12:18:22 -0400

AR 600-9 just got updated and rechristened as the Army Body Composition Program. The standard did not change; the only parts revised where the admin portion of being on the ABCP and a clarification for taping procedures.
This is where the problem lies: The standard is the body fat percentage tape test and not physical fitness/appearance. There are a lot of people whom no one should see naked who are within the standard and some that do not meet the standard and blow me away at the APFT.
Thus, if a Soldier looks like they're fat and the command directed tape doesn't say sp; that's tough cookies.

On another note: A lot of people are getting away with being in gross violation of the standard due to the good ol' boy system and some leaders honestly being afraid of the ABCP and telling somebody that they're fat.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2013 2:23 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Nov 2013 02:23:45 -0500

Being fit and your uniform being sharp sends a clear message about us and let's the civilian population know we care about our country, beyond just words.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Nov 10 at 2013 11:48 AM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Sun, 10 Nov 2013 11:48:16 -0500

There are soldiers who appear to look big but when they are taped, they pass! Some of these soldiers are the best soldiers out there who are getting 250 plus on a PT tests, acquiring college classes and who come to work on time. Be careful on who gets the boot and who gets to stay in.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Dec 29 at 2015 11:10 AM

LTC Stephen F. — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 11:10:04 -0500

Thanks what seems to be an appropriate rant SSG Private RallyPoint Member
I hope waht you are observing is not widespread but a local problem. In any event I concur with you that exercising leadership from squad level on up is the solution.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2015 11:12 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 11:12:41 -0500

Careful there, SSG Private RallyPoint Member , you might offend someone and hurt their feelings.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2015 11:17 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 11:17:54 -0500

People not enforcing the standards have a created a "new standard". It's that simple.

Response by SFC Stephen King made Dec 29 at 2015 11:23 AM

SFC Stephen King — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 11:23:47 -0500

SSG Private RallyPoint Member The Standards are there, we the NCO's are the enforcer's of the standard. I have no problem bringing any issues up to any Soldier regardless of gender and or rank. It's about approach and tact. Having the self awareness and self regulation to be assertive in my communication regardless of the standard.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2015 11:30 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 11:30:36 -0500

NCOs enforce standards, period.
If standards in a unit are lax, it is because there is a culture of lax standards.
I can't think of a single time that I corrected an issue or fixed something substandard and got overruled by my boss. Not once. In 22 1/2 years in this man's Army.
If people are not enforcing the standard, it is because they lack the courage to do so.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2015 11:44 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 11:44:19 -0500

Went out the window! Some NCOs have lost their backbone by trying to be liked by their peers and soldiers!

Response by SFC Stephen King made Dec 29 at 2015 11:45 AM

SFC Stephen King — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 11:45:25 -0500

It is an undeniable fact that today's Army is a different organization than that of even a few years ago. Times change. Society and social norms change, but Army standards seldom vary. We must lead from the front and set the example.
All NCO's have the authority to ensure that the standard is upheld.
We are entrusted to keep the Army unchanged, to make sure the bar is set both high and level for each and every Soldier in our charge. It is important as leaders to exemplify the standard to our subordinates, "Your Soldier's need to see what right looks like." It's up to us to show them.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2015 12:15 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 12:15:26 -0500

I see the comments about ht/wt. I'm a newbie compared to you old dogs, but I am aware the standard that's there has been around a good while. You talk about the army of old like there weren't fatties at all. I know for a fact there were. Upper ranks did less and less physical work. As should be expected in our hierarchy. This is not an excuse for their appearance or the appearance of my peers and subordinates. The army standard had stayed the same but the mental standards have dropped with the implementation of political correctness and hurt feelings. I know things can be hard to accept and see after being in for so long, but I believe we should upgrade our standards since this government wants to kick people out. Bring in the caliper testing or bod pod and make an actual set of standards not based on neck fat.
Rant over.

Response by 1stSgt Eugene Harless made Dec 30 at 2015 12:45 AM

1stSgt Eugene Harless — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 00:45:59 -0500

The entire idea of having Hieght and Weight Standards, if I recall correctly, didnt even come about until the 1970s. The entire reasoning behind it was more FITNESS them appearance. There were service members who used seniority to weasel out of PT. There were also the special little snowflakes that hid out in the admin offices or the tech shops when PT time rolled around.
Establishing Hieght and Weight Standards gave commands an added tool to get rid of service members who weren't physically fit.
Generally Hieght and Weight standards work hand in hand with fitness. A service member who doesnt meet HT and Weight Standards usually doesnt do well on PT tests, if they pass them at all.
In my opinion, there has to be more common sense applied when citing Ht/Wt standards. The FITNESS of the Individual, not their appearance, needs to be the deciding factor.
Some people due to genetics and ethnicity will never fit into the prescribed standards, however they will score high class PFTS.
Ive seen guys who were 5'10 and 220lbs run 300 PFTs. yet they were 30 pounds "overweight". Even the body weight measurements can't measure fitness.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2016 8:41 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 15 Jan 2016 20:41:21 -0500

Well first off, the entire height/weight taping metrics are off. The Joes have been complaining about that for years! An obviously fit Soldier can fail tape and watch a fat body pass to Army standard right behind him.

Second, when these requirements are not met it is still up to local command to enforce and act on it. Sometimes they just ignore it, other times they retain a Soldier because his skills and knowledge are just that useful. Ability won't protect them forever though. Some commands will work with an individual and try to help him pass. Others are straight by the regs and begin outprocessing after consecutive failures.

Personnally, I think the Army would see a lot of improvement if they: 1) improve the quality of food at the DFACs instead of forcing them to sign in to check the block, 2) release them from their duty day with enough time to hit the gym, and 3) fix the height/weight system!
You can get rid of the fat bodies still left after that.