Why does having a degree as an NCO automatically equate officership?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 09:41:59 -0400

This question is for my senior NCOs and officers.

Background:
I graduated in May with my Bachelors. My unit mobilized and we are now deployed. I figured that I didn’t want to put off my graduate education for 9 months, so I continued my studies. As of 22 August, I am a grad school student! When people find out that I have a degree let alone starting my second one, I get wide-eyed stares. In fact, most of my encounters end with advice such as “why aren’t you an officer” or “what are you doing enlisted?” It eludes to the idea that 1) NCOs are not educated; 2) heaven forbid if you are, why waste your skill set on being an NCO. As a newly promoted sergeant, it’s a kick in the face to the corps as a whole.

Question: Why are we pushing our NCOs to become officers because they have an education? We are stripping our units of outstanding individuals instead of retaining them and bolstering our corps. (Not trying to dismiss officers, just a proud NCO.)

*Note: I understand that college isn’t for everyone and not having a degree doesn’t make you less or better than your counterparts. It does make a difference in the long run.*

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2019 9:54 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 09:54:26 -0400

I haven’t really seen any of what you are describing. Plenty of enlisted have college degrees, including myself when I was enlisted. My first sergeant when I was an E4 had a masters. My current section sergeant major has a masters. It’s not uncommon. However, what I have seen is select individuals identified by officers / NCOs with college degrees that they feel would be good officers. Perhaps they see that in you. Having been enlisted for 7 years and now commissioned for 10, I can say that there are talent gaps on the officer side and when I see people on the enlisted side that could fill those gaps, I do try and sit down with them and have a conversation with them about what they want with their future.

Response by CA Delete D. made Oct 4 at 2019 9:56 AM

CA Delete D. — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 09:56:56 -0400

Train of thought is why select several years of obligated service at discounted pay...and eventually face civilian employment opps that only like hiring vets whom are prior officers - enlisted work seems to take a backseat, unless you are applying for the same job you had while enlisted.

If you are happy in the enlisted ranks, more power to you. Moreover, I knew folks who had college degrees and went the enlisted route - sometimes it is about preference and comfort level. On the plus side, you would garner more respect and have a more comprehensive ability to lead being prior enlisted if you go for the commission later on.

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Oct 4 at 2019 9:59 AM

LtCol Robert Quinter — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 09:59:36 -0400

There are many enlisted, both junior and senior who have college degrees. Gaining a commission offers those individuals the opportunity to affect more people of all ranks with their advice and leadership. In no way am I demeaning the critical impact of a good NCO, but a CO can affect an entire unit directly while an NCOs direct impact is often limited to his section or division. A commission also offers the benefit of more money, an appropriate recognition of an individual's accomplishments and qualifications.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2019 10:04 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 10:04:05 -0400

It's because you're a young Sergeant. Once you have a bit of rank, having a degree is the norm. I had to to complete my AA just to have enough points to be competitive for SSG in my old MOS. In my current MOS you aren't really competitive for SFC without a bachelor degree, and that's pretty common. Statistically, military Enlisted and especially NCOs have a superior rate of higher education compared to the civilian sector

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2019 10:10 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 10:10:59 -0400

Your logic is sound Sergeant. As a prior NCO I love your passion for the NCO corps, God knows its needed.

In my opinion, because achieving a degree is a great accomplishment, especially while serving, most people strive to earn it so they can get a commission. It is stereotypical and a stigma simply because its mostly true. However, I agree, an enlisted member with a degree shouldn't always equate to a commission.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2019 10:11 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 10:11:07 -0400

It kind of depends on your career field. I know the signal Corp is hurting on the officer and warrant side of the house. So I'm sure there is a larger push to develop officers from in house.
While Infantry are often portrayed as rock chewers, a little less than half will have college degrees.
Overall, college is becoming more and more common amongst NCOs. The NCOPDS is designed to give someone enough credits for a bachelors after graduating the CSM Academy.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2019 10:13 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 10:13:32 -0400

Another thing is that people simply chase more money and a commission offers that.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Oct 4 at 2019 11:02 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 11:02:00 -0400

I feel like you leaped to the wrong conclusion here...
No one says "you have a degree, you should be an officer!" because being NCO's aren't educated. They say it because OFFICERS MAKE MORE MONEY, and if you have an opportunity to get paid more, why wouldn't you?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2019 11:08 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 11:08:04 -0400

A degree does not equate "officership". I received my Masters as an SGT (E5), and encouraged all of my Soldiers to continue their education while serving. Historically, benefits go unused once a Soldier is released from duty. On the Reserve side of the house, unless the Soldier qualifies for the Post 9-11 the majority of their education benefits end once they are no longer a satisfactory participant. Having an advanced degree is necessary once you get more rank as an enlisted member. I've never really seen anyone "PUSH" an enlisted member to become an officer if they had a degree, although I do get the wide eyes when they find out we have MA degrees.

If you look at trend analysis, as enlisted Soldiers we actually have the highest education levels compared to our civilian counterparts. It seems like you are reading into it. I did not choose the officer path because if I would have chosen officer I would not have received SLRP (40,000 at the time). It was more important to pay off my loans.

Maybe you get those questions because of who they are and where they are at, not because of who YOU are and where YOU are at. Change your Circle Sergeant!

Are you getting those questions from other NCO's or Officers?

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Oct 4 at 2019 11:08 AM

SGT Dave Tracy — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 11:08:28 -0400

I was once leaned on by my company commander in my Reserve unit to take the Reserve's version of a direct commission, which would only have been possible because of my degree, so I have seen that a little bit, but there are many(!) NCOs with college under their belts. I wanted to stay NCO, and I certainly didn't want to take the one O slot he presented to me...that being the PL of the platoon I was already a part of! Just imagine, June drill: 1st Platoon, 1st Squad, E5 team leader; July drill 1st Platoon PL! Too weird, no thanks! LOL!

Still, all things considered, I never really got the feeling that as a corp, NCOs were ever assumed to be "uneducated", and those who were, "should" be officers. I guess your experience has been different. If you don't want the Big O, stay NCO and worry not about anything else.

Good luck in Grad school, BTW. I had to opt not to reenlist in the Reserves partly so I could dedicate my time to Grad school, and it will be a challenge for you, but as you wrapped up undergrad while still in Uncle Sam's loving embrace, you already have what it takes to be a soldier and a student...even if the educational demands may be a bit different.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2019 12:06 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 12:06:34 -0400

I have two bachelors and two masters when I was a Staff Sergeant. Did have an LTC try to get me to commission but enjoyed my job at that time.

Response by CSM William DeWolf made Oct 4 at 2019 1:19 PM

CSM William DeWolf — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 13:19:04 -0400

Very well written/stated. When I went to BCT in 69 I had a masters degree and received similar comments. Don’t be influenced but determine your own course. In ‘74 I received my PhD and retired after 35 yrs, USAR as CSM!

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Oct 4 at 2019 2:47 PM

MSgt Michael Smith — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 14:47:19 -0400

That doesn't happen as much in the Air Force I think. Also. I agree that it is mostly with your young age.

Response by 1SG Thomas Jasak made Oct 4 at 2019 4:27 PM

1SG Thomas Jasak — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 16:27:50 -0400

I dealt with the same questions when people found out that I had an associates degree and a bachelors degree before I enlisted and even more so when I earned another associates and bachelors degree while I was in. There is absolutely no shame in having degrees and staying enlisted and it actually makes you more competitive for future promotions. There also is no shame in going from enlisted to officer (commissioned or Warrant) if you or anyone else decides to do so. Good luck with your future.

Response by PO1 Lyndon Thomas made Oct 4 at 2019 4:30 PM

PO1 Lyndon Thomas — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 16:30:56 -0400

Maybe because they see the potential to be a great leader someday. Maybe they see the potential to maybe inspire Motivate ad drive your unit to be the absolute best it can be. By attaining your degrees it shows to others the determination to aspire and desire something more! I was asked this repeatedly and early in my military career. My only regret from my service is not saying Yes when they asked. It opens doors of opportunity that will never be open at the NCO level and it affords you the opportunity to do something great not only in your career but some aspiring young NCO like yourself someday. I could go on, but I'll give others an opportunity to speak. SO I part with this. SGT. Severino, change your perspective. They are offering YOU, a young Gifted and Black woman an opportunity to do greater things for you and your family. Not to mention the retirement is a huge difference between NCO and Commissioned officer. You won't regret it! Salute on making NCO, and Best wishes in the future of your military career no matter your decision.

Response by PO1 Lyndon Thomas made Oct 4 at 2019 4:31 PM

PO1 Lyndon Thomas — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 16:31:32 -0400

You could not be more right on that *Note

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Oct 4 at 2019 5:18 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 17:18:20 -0400

I sent a SPC to OCS because she had the timber to become a good leader.

Response by CW5 Jack Cardwell made Oct 4 at 2019 5:24 PM

CW5 Jack Cardwell — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 17:24:02 -0400

Go Warrant, the best of both worlds.

Response by COL Dana Hampton made Oct 4 at 2019 5:48 PM

COL Dana Hampton — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 17:48:40 -0400

Serve where you are comfortable and believe you are a contributing player, be it an officer or an NCO.

I’ve hap the privilege to serve with several NCO’s with Masters degrees. One CSM I served with had 2 Masters and a PhD. Never once questioned their decision to lead as NCOs.

Response by PO2 Michael Martin made Oct 4 at 2019 6:41 PM

PO2 Michael Martin — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 18:41:46 -0400

Agree, it does make a difference in the long run but give me someone like an NCO who has the work ethic , the dedication to make it better for them. I.ve known several officers that I wouldn't want covering my 6. There are fine NCO's that have an education and do prefer to climb the enlisted latter, and plenty of them. I think it's a personal decision. Do whats in your heart, not what someone tells you to do

Response by CPL Gary Pifer made Oct 4 at 2019 6:57 PM

CPL Gary Pifer — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 18:57:59 -0400

In the old days.. 1970's for me...rare on Active duty ... Except for the NG during the Vietnam War when everyone had degrees or were college students...

Response by MAJ Lee Goehl made Oct 4 at 2019 7:30 PM

MAJ Lee Goehl — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 19:30:25 -0400

When I was enlisted at FSHTX my MSG had an MBA and it was very common in the Medical field in fact if tou were a CT Tech you had a B S from Crieghton upon grad and you were an E6 or 7

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Oct 4 at 2019 11:04 PM

MAJ Byron Oyler — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 23:04:38 -0400

One of main reasons I push people to commission, retirement pay. Say you enlist at 20, serve 20 years, and live to be 80. You will have been retired twice as long as you served and will be paid in a retirement status at enlisted retirement pay. We need quality enlisted with bachelors however the retirement pay for 40years is a lot of money.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Oct 5 at 2019 1:52 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Sat, 05 Oct 2019 01:52:36 -0400

I knew literally hundreds of NCO’s if not thousands with degrees, most of which 99.9 percent did not transition to being an Officer. So rest assured that the soft skills learned I. College are applicable to your duties as a Senior NCO, not required but helpful. More importantly it prepares to for life after the military once retired. I assure you that every CSM and SGM have degrees, many earning them in their younger years, none of which jumped to the other side. Thank you for your service.

Response by MAJ William Smith made Oct 6 at 2019 7:55 AM

MAJ William Smith — Sun, 06 Oct 2019 07:55:57 -0400

Congratulations! Also, I agree with your main ideas. In my time, I met many officers who would have been happier and more effective as NCOs, but they thought they were supposed to be officers because they had degrees. I also met many NCOs with degrees. Some of these NCOs were effective and happy, but some should have considered commissioning. In the end, it is all about your own personality type and goals. I went to OCS when I realized that I could picture myself as a good company commander but not as 1SG.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Oct 6 at 2019 10:30 AM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Sun, 06 Oct 2019 10:30:23 -0400

Especially for younger troops, there is also the idea that you may have enlisted just shy of your degree, or already with your degree but taking advantage of some enlistment program that isn't available for officers (WAY back when I enlisted, there was college dwbt rapayment option, but only for enlisting, not for commissioning). In theae cases, you may just be "biding your time," until you can transition. The question may simply be to see where your heart is.

Additionally, the officer side has way better pay, and that carries over to a lot of things, to include retirement. If you are sticking around and have the ability to cross over, it makes fiscal sense to do so ASAP. It may not make personal sense, depending on individual goals, aspirations, talents, and/or proclivities. But a leader who wants the beat for their Soldier can't be blamed for at least asking the question.

Response by CPT Robert Boshears made Oct 6 at 2019 2:22 PM

CPT Robert Boshears — Sun, 06 Oct 2019 14:22:52 -0400

I have met more NCO’s with degrees than my entire OCS class had. I was a non college educated OCS grad (later did get a degree and went to Law School). Being an Infantry Officer was my preference.

Response by CSM Danny S. made Oct 6 at 2019 3:47 PM

CSM Danny S. — Sun, 06 Oct 2019 15:47:46 -0400

I graduated from college back when I was an E5 as well. I had thoughts of going to WOCS or OCS and was approached by an officer recruiter but I chose to stay enlisted. Plus a degree helps you get promoted (E5/E6) and it is looked at as a discriminator when you hit E8 or E9. Improving yourself is the important thing because one day all of us will leave the service.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2019 10:03 AM

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Response by LCDR Joe Blanchard made Oct 13 at 2019 8:36 PM

LCDR Joe Blanchard — Sun, 13 Oct 2019 20:36:08 -0400

Being a Mustang brings the NCO knowledge and experience into to officer corp

Response by CSM Stuart Fuller made Oct 22 at 2019 6:34 PM

CSM Stuart Fuller — Tue, 22 Oct 2019 18:34:56 -0400

I had a specialist in my Cav Squadron who had PHD and loved being a scout

Response by CSM Patrick Durr made Nov 7 at 2019 4:43 AM

CSM Patrick Durr — Thu, 07 Nov 2019 04:43:22 -0500

Agree with all. I went through the same crap coming up through the ranks. Why is it more important for an Officer to be educated than for an NCO. NCO's stay directly leading Soldiers for longer periods of their career. Historically, it was unheard of to target officers on the battlefield in fear that Soldiers and NCOs would be left aimless and without organization. Today's ENEMY is smart. They are forced to produce far greater results with fewer resources. They consider no rule of law, they justify immoral actions and results in the name of "their God", and they have no respect for the lives of any to include their women and children. They use their own children to test devices and to shield against the efforts of a moral and ethical force.(US) The Soldier and Sergeant that I stood side by side with on the battlefield had to be intelligent, politically savvy, criminal investigations capable, and possess a conscience that allows him or her to make the harder choice when presented with easier wrongs. These are not the skills of an ignorant force. These are junior enlisted and elements led by SGTs and SSGs with NO officer anywhere to be found. They do it day after day after day. Smart, Educated and Intelligent. When asked about becoming an Officer, I used to respond...I thought it more important to have smart NCOs than Officers. NCOs train Officers at every level of leadership.....

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2019 10:08 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Nov 2019 10:08:49 -0500

The goal is to get our education levels on par with our officer counterparts. A proper education will help our NCOs be effective leaders and interact more intelligently with officers when you reach the senior NCO ranks.

Response by CW4 Don Kite made Nov 29 at 2019 7:02 PM

CW4 Don Kite — Fri, 29 Nov 2019 19:02:27 -0500

College was no real big deal in my day. I didnt have a degree and got promoted through to SSG. Went to WOCS and retired a CW4. It is a prerequisite to have a 4 year degree to be an officer. NCOs do not have this requirement, they can do their jobs without it. But the challenge to get promoted has changed, there are more Soldiers trying to get promoted than there are positions and after you have maxout the point system, all you have left is the college option...to stand out among your peers. Some go because they want to and others go because they have to. The promotion system has created this requirement.

Response by PO3 Brad Barnes made Dec 15 at 2019 7:13 PM

PO3 Brad Barnes — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 19:13:12 -0500

Very provocative question. Education is education. It doesn't grant by it's presence ability to lead or discharge duties. It merely states... "formally educated". Not all are driven to become formally educated. I was so driven. Not everybody is. I think we all have known some (not very bright NCO's, as well as officers.) Lack of education doesn't infer lack of intelligence. Some of the best leaders I served under didn't have college degrees. Conversely, some of the worst leaders I served under did. Go figure.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2019 5:01 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 30 Dec 2019 05:01:25 -0500

SGT, I completely understand your experience on this topic. I enlisted months after graduating with a BS in Physics. As soon as somebody asked me about classes/school & I told them I had a BS, the next question was always about becoming an officer. I once had a 1st Shirt who told me “You know, he (the CC) asks me everyday if I’ve talked to you about OTS.” I appreciated the shirt only having the conversation with me once (command was the front hallway, my shop was the back). I like to think it’s because my CC thought I’d be a good officer. However, I always said the pay wasn’t worth the other Ps: politics, people & paperwork. I’m a do-er. Tell me what needs to get done & I’ll get it done. I’ve definitely gotten to a point where I have a fair amount of paperwork & where I need to deal with more people but I am glad the first 5-6 years of my career were more about doing. Thankfully, since I enlisted a bit older, I’m now past the age cutoff for OTS so the questions are now all past tense. I’ve also come to know several other SNCOs & NCOs with degrees. One of our PME instructors is working on his PhD in Chemistry. I actually asked the officer question of him & in his case, he didn’t get selected for OTS. I know other officers who didn’t make it initially either so enlisting was still their best option & then they crossed over from within. Everyone has their reasons for what they do. Some people just can’t see beyond the dollar signs. Some of us realize what each side entails & are proud to wear our rank on our sleeve (& this will wear my ABUs as long as possible).