Why does security now trump liberty? Is this complementary to the values of Founders?

2017-01-28T19:33:07-05:00

Response by Austin Hocutt made Jan 28 at 2017 7:35 PM

2017-01-28T19:35:33-05:00

It's been this way ever since the PATRIOT ACT.

You are suspicious so we need to watch you 24/7 in case you do a crime that we suspect you'll do in the future.

I agree with the quote.

Response by SFC Everett Oliver made Jan 28 at 2017 7:35 PM

2017-01-28T19:35:39-05:00

I don't believe we've actually given up our Liberty. But being a realist, the world changed on 9-11-01 and unfortunately we have to change a little bit with it...

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2017 7:42 PM

2017-01-28T19:42:32-05:00

I must be missing something. Preventing people who are coming from a country where many want to kill Americans is a restriction on our freedoms?

Response by Cpl Zach Wellborn made Jan 28 at 2017 7:49 PM

2017-01-28T19:49:08-05:00

Complacent mentality kills. Doesn't help that the media can influence people to riot. People form opinions and think theirs is the only one that matters. There's no big picture for the country, more of a big picture for me and my life blah blah blah

Response by 1SG Al Brown made Jan 28 at 2017 8:26 PM

2017-01-28T20:26:20-05:00

It all started in an airport when I met my first TSA agent. Five minutes later, I was down to my ACU pants and socks. I knew it was over. We went from liberty to security to tyranny in five minutes. I've been sad ever since.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2017 8:30 PM

2017-01-28T20:30:08-05:00

I reject your premise, but you could take any phrase out of context and twist it to make almost any point.

Response by CW3 Cherif L. made Jan 28 at 2017 9:13 PM

2017-01-28T21:13:04-05:00

I wish to share the following with this discussion group. This is what the balance is all about:

"We live in dangerous times, but we are not the first generation of Americans to face threats to our security. Like those before us, we will be judged by future generations of Americans on how we react to crisis. And by that I mean not just whether we win the war on terrorism, because I believe we will, but also whether, as we fight that war, we safeguard for our citizens the very liberties for which we are fighting."

- Robert Mueller, Fmr Dir, FBI

Response by GySgt Melissa Gravila made Jan 28 at 2017 9:52 PM

2017-01-28T21:52:41-05:00

IMO the secret to true security is being able to exercise your liberties freely without being afraid of retribution or in fear for your safety. For the record, I do agree with the quote wholeheartedly.
S/F

Response by SSgt Christopher Brose made Jan 28 at 2017 10:36 PM

2017-01-28T22:36:32-05:00

MAJ Bryan Zeski Is the OP in reference to something specific? Or is it a general question?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2017 1:44 AM

2017-01-29T01:44:45-05:00

Security no trumps liberty because of fear without facts, thus evoking an emotional response which may or may not be rational, may or may not have merit and ultimately has been a proven and tried method in history.

Concerning the founding fathers, I would say no it is not complementary, while at the same time say that those only hearing one side if a story without listening to both sides are framing the complementary part to fit their own needs and desires.

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made Jan 29 at 2017 7:19 AM

2017-01-29T07:19:38-05:00

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. ~ Benjamin Franklin

The world is not as simple as it was in Franklin's day but is certainly more dangerous. There are those who seek to deprive of us our Constitutional and God-given rights, both foreign and domestic. Exercise your rights and liberties but you must also be vigilant to keep your enemies at bay and your freedom in tact. The Radical Muslim Extremists who wish to destroy us and our way of life are the scourge of the earth. We must be ready to fight them on any grounds...Home or Away. I prefer an Away scenario but but if the battle must be fought at Home, then so be it! Life became more complex for us after 9/11. Stock up, rearm and be ready to fight to the death to preserve our way of life.

Response by Sgt Ramon Nacanaynay made Jan 29 at 2017 8:53 AM

2017-01-29T08:53:55-05:00

The balance between Liberty and Security must be struck. That's difficult when the President did not win the popular vote.

Response by CW4 Angel C. made Jan 29 at 2017 9:05 AM

2017-01-29T09:05:15-05:00

I don't think our liberties are actually being taken away. Whoever thinks that is just in panic mode. Our American liberty is just fine.

Response by 1SG Al Brown made Jan 29 at 2017 9:10 AM

2017-01-29T09:10:00-05:00

Several operators died yesterday in a raid in Yemen against Al Qaeda. They were pursuing a continued environment of dangerous freedom. Their actions were designed to avoid an eventual peaceful slavery. Volunteer for Combat Arms, put the uniform back on your old body, sweat and train with some Soldiers or Marines. Get on a helicopter that will come back with a bloody deck or not at all. Quit being so spoiled and arrogant off the sweat of others, and please tell me again how our freedom revolves around the immediate entrance of foreign immigrants from countries we are fighting against without intense scrutiny. The argument is a real hoot to listen to.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2017 12:41 PM

2017-01-29T12:41:38-05:00

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Benjamin Franklin

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2017 5:04 PM

2017-01-29T17:04:40-05:00

responding to the original quote in that time the usa wasn't, we were ruled by England trying to gain our own independence, thus that quote is validated for that time, but trying to use it now is reckless and irresponsible, we are a nation now and yes we have our freedoms but we also need to protect our country from outside influences as well as inside influences, take a look at the oath you took "that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic", so creating stronger boarder control and immigration against illegals is paramount to this nation, and strong vetting of immigrants is needed, look at Canada, if you have no contribution to their country you don't get in, also why did Mexico build their own wall on their southern boarder, I don't agree with some of the stuff that's going on but if I sleep peacefully at night knowing that my 6 is protected then so be it

Response by CSM Thomas McGarry made Jan 29 at 2017 6:48 PM

2017-01-29T18:48:50-05:00

I believe Liberty and Security have always been a balancing act, we certainly have given up some of our liberties over the years for what is often perceived as the common good. Take for example an individual's right to own certain firearms which are outlawed because of their perceived danger in the wrong hands.

Response by LTC Joseph Gross made Jan 30 at 2017 3:57 PM

2017-01-30T15:57:46-05:00

Liberty over freedom was always a lofty, unobtainable goal that was much easier to achieve in the 18th century than the 20th and 21st century. We do have to have a balance, we can't pretend otherwise. But we need to ensure we don't go one step beyond where we need to be to ensure the safety and stability of our nation.

Response by Cpl Mark McMiller made Jan 30 at 2017 10:46 PM

2017-01-30T22:46:45-05:00

Here's what Jefferson had to say about Islam after he and John Adams met with the Ambassador of Tripoli in an unsuccessful attempt to end the Barbary piracy peacefully:

“We took the liberty to make some enquiries concerning the ground of their pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury, and observed that we considered all mankind as our friends who had done us no wrong, nor had given us any provocation.

The Ambassador [of Tripoli] answered us that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.

{Letter from the commissioners, John Adams & Thomas Jefferson, to John Jay, 28 March 1786}”
― Thomas Jefferson, Letters of Thomas Jefferson

That, my friends, is mainstream Islam, not radical Islam.

Response by SPC Tommy Dean made Jan 31 at 2017 7:45 AM

2017-01-31T07:45:29-05:00

In the days of our founders, people didn't fly airplanes into buildings. Times change. Deal with it.

Response by TSgt Daniel Wareham made Jan 31 at 2017 8:21 AM

2017-01-31T08:21:11-05:00

These "refugees" have no Constitutional Right to enter the Country. The primary job of the President is to protect the Country, not to care for people from other countries. Allowing Terrorists to come into the country is not protecting the country.

Response by CPT Larry Hudson made Jan 31 at 2017 8:36 AM

2017-01-31T08:36:50-05:00

A nation cannot exist without security. Freedom cannot exist when citizens are secondary to political ideology and borderless country policy.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2017 9:25 AM

2017-01-31T09:25:07-05:00

I think when entering public places we should be checked for the safety of the people at large. If you're not doing anything wrong you have no reason to worry about getting in trouble. However at private places (i.e. home or some where the general public just can't walk in) we should whatever you want with consenting adults. The exception should be crimes like murder, rape, kidnapping or planning terrorist activities (i.e. bomb making).

We have the right to our own opinions and can say them publicly. However every action or statement will have good or bad consequences.

Response by SPC John Sanborn made Jan 31 at 2017 10:04 AM

2017-01-31T10:04:27-05:00

Thomas Jefferson also said that the constitution should not be a suicide pact.
We cannot allow the whole world access to our country to come and go as they please with no control at all. The restriction is for 7 countries only! That does nothing to restrict my liberties.
Trump wants to establish a safe area for all Syrians to stay in their homeland. We can do that! There is no way to properly vet all the people from the area.

Response by LTC Mark Beattie made Jan 31 at 2017 10:09 AM

2017-01-31T10:09:57-05:00

Without "Security," there is no "Freedom!!"

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Jan 31 at 2017 10:24 AM

2017-01-31T10:24:39-05:00

Ultimately, there is some truth to this, as well as the same truths that apply the other way around with social programs. To tackle this, a good balance and compromise needs to be created.

Response by 1stSgt Nelson Kerr made Jan 31 at 2017 12:56 PM

2017-01-31T12:56:59-05:00

Cowards like the scum in the Oval office are too terrified to allow liberty.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2017 1:24 PM

2017-01-31T13:24:46-05:00

I have the opinion that this security over liberty started in our government under President George W Bush with a bipartisan legislature it continued significantly under President Obama, and is only going to continue under President Trump. Yes I enjoy security but I believe liberty is more important. Some say more gun control or a ban on guns would provide us with more safety or security, I do not believe that because it takes away liberty. Just as if the press was regulated in any way shape or form, it would provide less liberty. The idea of liberty just doesn't pertain to a EO that temporarily bans residents of 7 countries that are deemed unsafe. It also pertains to how we live our lives. Yes I believe we should have certain laws so that the liberties of others are not infringed. I also think we shouldn't have certain laws because it infringes on others liberty.

When it comes down to it some philosopher (not sure of who) said. "Ethics is knowing the difference on what we have the right to do and what is right to do."

Response by TSgt Denise Moody made Jan 31 at 2017 3:45 PM

2017-01-31T15:45:31-05:00

Because the populace is scared and have let that fear take over.

Response by SSG Jeffrey Monk made Jan 31 at 2017 4:19 PM

2017-01-31T16:19:47-05:00

Our freedoms were actually curbed with the first Patriot Act signed under Bush Jr and more added to that act under Obama. We are on a slippery slide. Right now, the current POTUS hasn't done anything that hasn't been done before. Nothing in the Bill Of Rights has been redacted. But if you are an American over seas, I wouldn't depend on the US coming to your aid anytime soon. And if your not American, well the rights of an American don't apply to you. I wish you were in the livingroom to chat this one out. You know I've always enjoyed throwing ideas around. Be safe Brother.

Response by Cpl Alan Moran made Jan 31 at 2017 6:14 PM

2017-01-31T18:14:15-05:00

fear others. it's like a rod serling thing. it's been a while, but "rise and fall of the third reich" keeps calling me back to barnes and nobles (did i spell it right?). congress passed a law long ago making it illegal for the government to investigate the effect of guns on society but fools worry about 'the other', next door, next town, overseas. focus on what is more dangerous to your kids in the present and near future. go look up the odds of a foreign born terrorist killing you in the past 40 years. if i tell you, you'll say i lied. if you look it up yourself you will not tell because it doesn't fit your reality. you'll call it an 'alternative fact' even though you did the research.

Response by SN Bryan King made Jan 31 at 2017 9:24 PM

2017-01-31T21:24:30-05:00

How much liberty do you have without security?

Response by SFC George Smith made Jan 31 at 2017 10:44 PM

2017-01-31T22:44:58-05:00

most interesting... when Liberty allows the Enemy to invade thru Migration ... there is a problem... Ask The native Americans... they will let you know the true reality....

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2017 7:19 AM

2017-02-01T07:19:08-05:00

He that would sacrifice liberty for security deserves neither

Response by 1LT Tom Wilson made Feb 1 at 2017 7:50 AM

2017-02-01T07:50:13-05:00

First of all, you have to be very careful with quotes from Thomas Jefferson. He was a lover and not a fighter and he frequently wrote a check with his tough talk he never asked his body to cash but encouraged others to cancel.

The people who are now running the country depend upon fear to achieve their command roles. Trump, in particular, is a creature of the Harvard Business Model and fear is the default management style of the MBA program. It's just assumded. The performance model of the Harvard Business School was state of the art when women began playing halr-court basketball and it is at least 70 years behind the performance expectations you have been submerged in as soon as you began Basic Training. Esprit de Corps, as a principle of management, is almost universally violated by Fortune 500 CEOs as much because they don't know any better as by design, but the net effect is the same. And the metric for this is any CEO paying himself more than 80 times the floor wage in a publically traded company employs management by fear.

So, the focus on Security is an attempt by the people running the country to amp up the fear factor which they require to sustain cohesion in their political coalition and subdue opponents. If they could, they would stage a 911 type event, to recapture the national cohesion immediately after the event and before the Bush administration began its WMD scare tactic campaign to justify the invasion of Iraq and the polarization began to return.

Now, ask yourself this: when Sean Spicer comes in front of the White House Press Pool and says "We have a right to protect our country", what does he think the people who are reading this post have been doing since 911? I am not a fan of the Bush administration, but the military and the intelligence services weren't the problem, especially after Robert Gates took over DoD. And they weren't the problem during the Obama administration, which started out with Robert Gates at DoD. Gates, Colin Powell and Richard Armitage were about the only thing that demonstrated any competence during the Bush administration in Iraq. And the current Security status is a legacy of these people and of your current service.

So, this is something of an education on the fly. I grew up in the Army and remember the Army McCarthy hearings and the people who are now running America trace their political heritage directly to him. A couple of years after the Army McCarthy hearings, Army bands began playing the 1812 Overture on the 4th of July because it is satisfyingly noisy; as a tribute to the Red Army for its role in crushing the Fascists; amd as a resounding FUCK YOU, Joe McCarthy and the crypto-Nazi horse you rode into office with.

This "Security" issue is not a new problem for the Army. Keep track of things, but let the civilians sort things out.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Feb 3 at 2017 1:10 AM

2017-02-03T01:10:50-05:00

Because, you can't have liberty... without first having security... I don't think our liberties have been infringed... Have they? MAJ Bryan Zeski

Response by SPC Randy Torgerson made Feb 8 at 2017 12:05 PM

2017-02-08T12:05:17-05:00

I would like to see you clarify your question to what your specifically talking about?

Response by SMSgt Timothy Cathers made Feb 9 at 2017 4:57 PM

2017-02-09T16:57:32-05:00

Yes

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Feb 9 at 2017 7:28 PM

2017-02-09T19:28:31-05:00

The First Barbary War (1801–1805), also known as the Tripolitanian War and the Barbary Coast War, was the first of two Barbary Wars between the United States, and the four North African states known collectively as the "Barbary States". Three of these were nominal provinces of the Ottoman Empire, but in practice autonomous: Tripoli, Algiers, and Tunis. The fourth was the independent Sultanate of Morocco. The cause of the war was pirates from the Barbary States seizing American merchant ships and holding the crews for ransom, demanding the U.S. pay tribute to the Barbary rulers. United States President Thomas Jefferson refused to pay this tribute, our Navy was born from this conflict if my memory serves me correctly. So Thomas Jefferson decided he wasn't going to be a victim to these attacks and did something about it just like our President Trump is trying to do.

Response by FN George Woodruff made Feb 14 at 2017 7:59 AM

2017-02-14T07:59:25-05:00

Without security there can be no liberty!

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2017 7:58 AM

2017-02-23T07:58:43-05:00

MAJ Bryan Zeski It is an excellent quote. What does it mean, and how is that meaning twisted and abused to gain a political outcome? Does it mean you get to endanger my freedom so you can get political power?

Much of the discussion on this topic seems to involve the temporary travel restriction on people coming from countries identified in the Obama administration's restrictions from 2015. We were assured then that background checks would be done on refugees.

Someone please tell me how you do a background check on a refugee from Somalia? Who do you contact? Who is the local police force? Who is the head of their government, or their equivalent to the Secretary of State? If you do get records, do you trust them?

The government is the local warlord. Still think we can trust these background checks?

Or consider Iran, who loves to chant, "Death to America." Well, at least we can identify their police force; not much different than the Gestapo. Do you trust their reports? Or Syria; after all, just because we have said Bashar Assad should be removed from power doesn't mean he'll hold a grudge, does it? Maybe we can trust reports from the governments of Libya or Yemen?

I am a fan of open immigration, but with one provision that you cannot immigrate to welfare. Prior to 1938 we had no national welfare system. People who came here came here to work, and they did work. And no matter how much the work they did was done in a sweat shop, they were glad to have it.

We also have an immigration system, and we have people who have waited 10 years or more to get to enter legally. The idea that we would say, "Well, if you got here illegally, but you had a child here, or started a business here, or demonstrated enough, we'll let you jump ahead of those who followed the law and are still waiting their turn", is an abomination.

Further, for the same expenditure, we could help TWELVE TIMES as many refugees in their own region, than we could help by letting them come here. So you tell me, is this really about helping people, or is it about political power?

Response by PO1 Dinah Goodman made Feb 23 at 2017 8:57 PM

2017-02-23T20:57:27-05:00

Liberty is important, yes, but not all people value liberty. Enter the need for security. When you have groups of people who want to take our liberties, we have to ensure we use the adequate security measures to keep our enemies at bay.

Response by PO1 Clinton Cornwell made Feb 28 at 2017 9:17 AM

2017-02-28T09:17:22-05:00

This absolutely goes against the founders philosophy. They were independent and fierce. They were capable men and women who tolerated far less than we do today. Today's society prefers to be spoon fed their security instead of taking care of it themselves. They want to be able to lay blame on someone else if things go south (the government, the police, etc.).

Response by SPC Brian Stephens made Mar 7 at 2017 7:45 PM

2017-03-07T19:45:40-05:00

Because we are at war and we want this nation to survive.

Response by SrA A.A. Hall made Apr 25 at 2017 2:12 PM

2017-04-25T14:12:02-04:00

To give up your liberties for securities, and you'll have neither. Any time a government tells you that it'll be ok, "turn in all your guns, and and anythng that you can protect yourselves with, " Your Government will take care of you" ! You'll find your liberties and securities gone fast. Just look at Russia, China, N. Korea, etc. Their government tells them what, when and where their people can go, and or do anything. And if someone disagrees, we'll most people in the USA knows how that usually turns out. A government in absolute control is a Tyrant government.

Response by CDR Nancy Hoffman made May 10 at 2017 3:18 PM

2017-05-10T15:18:11-04:00

Benjamin Franklin said: Those who sacrifice Liberty for security deserve neither. I agree.

Response by PO2 Rev. Frederick C. Mullis, AFI, CFM made May 12 at 2017 10:04 AM

2017-05-12T10:04:09-04:00

The deliberations of the Constitutional Convention of 1787 were held in strict secrecy. Consequently, anxious citizens gathered outside Independence Hall when the proceedings ended in order to learn what had been produced behind closed doors. The answer was provided immediately. A Mrs. Powel of Philadelphia asked Benjamin Franklin, “Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?” With no hesitation whatsoever, Franklin responded, “A republic, if you can keep it.” (Benjamin Franklin)

Response by Sgt Heriberto Salinas made May 14 at 2017 8:09 PM

2017-05-14T20:09:38-04:00

There is a White House stat that indicates one reason why we're experiencing so many terrorist attacks on Americans. During the Obama administration they allowed people of the Islamic faith in as immigrants to Christians 99 to 1.

Response by LTC Hillary Luton made May 22 at 2017 5:17 PM

2017-05-22T17:17:43-04:00

I think safety and security are often an illusion sold to people to make them believe they are better off with the "security" measures created for them. I don't know where the quote came from, but the one that I often remember is: "That which keeps you safe can also keep you prisoner". Do we live in dangerous times. Sure we do. But when has there been a time in history that wasn't dangerous? A time when people were not trying to assert their power, take lands for themselves, conquer a civilization?

Keep in mind, the more "security" we have, the more the average person expects "someone else" to keep them safe. And the more they rely on that someone else, the more they give them the power to give or take that security as they wish.

I'm not saying we should not rely on each other, and I'm not saying we shouldn't have a police force, but expecting someone else to take care of your personal security is not really what our founding fathers had in mind. They understood that we have to help each other and they understand there has to be police who maintain law and order, but we also have to help ourselves, and we cannot expect someone else to do the dirty work for us if we are unwilling (unable is a completely different story) to do it for ourselves.

I do like this quote: "If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower. Yup, that just about sums it up.

Safety and Security can be seen as an illusion we like to believe. It make us feel secure. I feel safe in my home. But I also know, there are a million things that could happen in my home that could cause me harm. I feel basically safe when I go outside of my home or community, but I also know that every time I go outside my home, there are risks. That is called life. So I can accept the risks, take certain precautions and see them as a possible adventure, or I can sit at home like a scared chicken and hope someone is out there to protect me. Hmmmm...the latter is not my style.

OK, I know this is getting long, but I have to relay this story. So, I get a telemarketer call from ADT. And after telling them "No" several times, that I'm not interested in their security system, and the guy really not wanting to take "no" for an answer, I'm getting irritated. So the guy is trying to play out reasons why I should get the security system and he says, "What if someone breaks into your house and tries to hurt you? If you had our security system, it would call the police to come help you." I laughed and said, "Sir, if some poor fool tries to break into my home and hurt me, I own a 9mm, and I will be more than happy to shoot them." He got silent for a minute and tried the "Yah, but..." I shut him down and explained there was no "Yah, buts.." in this scenario. My point is simple. I am not going to rely on a security system or anything else to protect me, especially if I am not willing to make an effort to protect myself.

Yes, I am a Soldier for Life, and as a Soldier, I will never expect someone else to defend me or protect me. If I'm unwilling to protect myself, then I don't think I really deserve the freedoms I spent most of my life defending. And quite frankly, I happen to like my freedoms.

Response by Kenneth Hall made May 23 at 2017 6:48 PM

2017-05-23T18:48:08-04:00

No it is not and it is contradictory to the real purpose of government when WE SACRIFICE FREEDOM FOR SECURITY! THIS is an original song i wrote to address this idea! https://soundcloud.com/user262008952/i-believe-in-the-constitution-6

i-believe-in-the-constitution-6

Response by Kenneth Hall made May 23 at 2017 8:03 PM

2017-05-23T20:03:51-04:00

This is another original song I recorded to demonstrate the end result of sacrificing Freedom for Security https://soundcloud.com/user262008952/warriors-plea!

SoundCloud - Hear the world’s sounds

Your current browser isn't compatible with SoundCloud. Please download one of our supported browsers. Need help?

Response by SFC Tony Bennett made May 31 at 2017 10:46 PM

2017-05-31T22:46:36-04:00

Because WE THE PEOPLE have allow this to happen. We've allowed politicians who refuse to come up for air from the tax payers tough long enough to even consider doing the bidding of the people who put them into office. Their personal and party agenda's have completely trumped the rights of WE THE PEOPLE. And for some odd reason, we continue to return these people into office........I don't get it. Congress is in desperate need of TERM LIMITS. Which of course they have ZERO interest in.

Response by SPC James Gromley made Jun 3 at 2017 2:33 AM

2017-06-03T02:33:00-04:00

True security requires that those who are being secure trust everyone or everything around them. Liberty does not mean the right to do everything you want, it means the right to do those thing accepted as reasonable to those around you. Here in ln is where to two become counter to each other, for some having a awesome law enforcement group which can go to any means which it needs to find out those things needed to bring law breakers to justice is a good thing. But when those means begin to invade areas of those who have done nothing wrong you start taking away Liberty in the name of justice.

Response by TSgt James Carson made Jun 5 at 2017 9:44 PM

2017-06-05T21:44:59-04:00

Get used to more security. Americans are quick to give away freedoms just so they don't have to be responsible for their own safety. Now, you cannot go anywhere without possibly being arrested for bumping into someone, saying something, or being apart of a group of people not haring anyone. We have TSA. airport police, politicians telling us we must give up our rights for everyone's safety. If you are tired of all this, organize and bother your elected officials.

Response by Kenneth Hall made Jun 15 at 2017 6:25 PM

2017-06-15T18:25:40-04:00

I write music to try to counter the BAD IDEAS that promote this Meme. Here is one of my originals on the subject. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsuEbQXrx0A

SPECIAL KINDA LUNATIC SA MV

Honor is determined by our actions not our uniform!

Response by LTC Alice Monego Roosa (Saddler) made Jun 16 at 2017 10:11 PM

2017-06-16T22:11:32-04:00

I suggest wasp spray. 30 ft. trajectory, non-lethal, and effective in a traffic-protest situation. Subdues snowflake crowds well. Little colateral legal ramifications. (Also hold a Chemical MOS)

Response by AN Donald Miller made Jun 16 at 2017 10:53 PM

2017-06-16T22:53:52-04:00

Haha sounds like a loaded question. Read it earlier had no answer but after letting it mull around for a while my thoughts are if we secure our borders there would be no need to sacrifice our liberties simply because our enemies wouldn't be allowed to become part of our society. Look at history what did other nations do to keep out their enemies to protect their way of life, even the Vatican has a wall.

Response by AN Donald Miller made Jun 17 at 2017 1:01 AM

2017-06-17T01:01:38-04:00

I used to live in Dallas Texas. One day while waiting for a bus downtown I saw white van pull into a parking garage under a high rise a few blocks away, moments later I saw three black suburbans with dark tinted windows pull in the same entrance to the parking area. Later that night on the news I learned the white van was loaded with explosives. Thank you Jesus there where those there to protect not just me but everyone else that would have been in the blast radious. Would not be here today. No I don't agree with the Patriot act allowing warrantless wiretaps but we also allow anyone into our country. With that in mind how do we at the same time be a nation of immigrants yet at the same time be a nation with freedoms and liberties. Do we shut down all boarders and start rounsing up all refugees from a particular demographic say Muslims from certain countries. What is the solution? A solution that allows us to keep our heritage, a solution that allows us to keep letting anyone move here yet a solution that keeps us safe and free. I am 56 and this world has changed so much it isn't the same, can't imagine what it'll be like in another fifty years. I do believe that with every problem there is a solution but what and I believe that is what this thread is about people discussion there views and opinions who knows maybe even a viable solution we can all live with.

Response by AN Donald Miller made Jun 17 at 2017 1:35 AM

2017-06-17T01:35:27-04:00

Was just reading a few of these posts and a thought just popped into my mind. Looks like prophecy is being full filled. Wow me may actually see it all in our lifetime. He says we will not know the day nor the hour, but we will know the season. From everything I have seen tis the season.

Response by PO2 Skip Kirkwood made Jun 17 at 2017 9:38 AM

2017-06-17T09:38:04-04:00

We have let the nanny state get too far in to our lives. Now, people expect "the gov'mnt" to solve their problems, keep them safe, etc., rather than doing it for themselves. People are also lazy and adverse to pain - it's too much work to learn to defend yourself and your family - and God knows you might get hurt......

Response by AN Donald Miller made Jun 18 at 2017 10:20 AM

2017-06-18T10:20:22-04:00

Here a link to a group. The article is about what isgoing on in Germanyhttp://powderedwigsociety.com/so-long-germany/

Response by Cpl Mark McMiller made Jun 18 at 2017 9:24 PM

2017-06-18T21:24:05-04:00

Liberty doesn't do you much good if you're dead. That's where security comes in.

Response by D. Cree Crawford made Jun 22 at 2017 12:22 PM

2017-06-22T12:22:12-04:00

This falls back on BIG PICTURE goals. If you are aware of the "Hegelian Dialectic" -Create Problem, Nurture the Reaction (Fear) and Conveniently Have Solution to problem created.. Usually in form of granting more power to those who created the problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectic#Hegelian_dialectic

Response by SPC Danny Hahn made Jun 22 at 2017 2:24 PM

2017-06-22T14:24:57-04:00

It doesn't! And, it's contrary to the values of the founders. They weren't interested in security. They wanted liberty (freedom).

Response by SPC Jamie Smith made Jun 25 at 2017 12:34 PM

2017-06-25T12:34:15-04:00

The people who are coming here illegally, or are captured on the battlefield have NO rights, per our Constitution. In my personal opinion, the people who plan or carry out terrorist activities against innocent American citizens, also give up their Constitutional rights.

Response by PO1 Kevin Dougherty made Jun 26 at 2017 12:01 AM

2017-06-26T00:01:36-04:00

Not sure there is an easy or even a good answer to the question. The enemy we face is different than what we have ever faced before. There is not a cohesive, uniformed, military force we can stand against, but an enemy without, and increasingly, within who likes to hide in plain sight. His weapons are not planes, tanks and ships, but IEDs, suicide vests, men, women and children willing to give their lives to attempt to bring terror to our towns and villages. The question then is not one of security trumping liberty, but how do we ensure security while protecting liberty. We are in a war, make no mistake of that, one unlike any we have fought before, and one where for the first time since 1812, where we have enemy combatants on American soil. We will overcome, of that I have no doubt, but to do so, we will have to improvise and adapt. Mistakes will be made, but as long as we adjust and improve our tactics, we will win. Not easily, not soon, and certainly not without cost, but in time.

Response by PVT Mark Brown made Jun 29 at 2017 1:10 PM

2017-06-29T13:10:58-04:00

I am totally against new rules, regulations and laws that remove freedom to the background for the benefit of security. Sure, there are security related activities that must occur at many levels of life. These security activities have no place over riding any of our basic freedoms. Bit by Bit, since 9/11 we have handed out rights, our freedoms, our Bill of Rights over to fear. The bad guys are winning. We are become a people jailed in our own country. At every turn we find one liberty or protection eroded or actually overridden to the point we are living a far different life and we are accepting this state of affairs. I do not accept it. I am and have been in fighting mode. The oath I took on 23 Mar 1968 has not yet expired. This is rapidly becoming a country I am no long proud of. The fault does not land squarely on democrats not can we blame the republicans, it is ALL of government for your most powerless local board up to and including Washington (and all that happens in DC.) Our problems and loss of independence ends at and lands squarely on every desk in Congress, every desk in the Supreme Court and the desk of the President and Commander in Chief. In my humble opinion they have all failed us. It is now our turn to get on their back and keep after them until things are corrected. Will this be a simple process? No. Will those in power be willing to listen to us? No. Will this be a short proces? Again, No, emphatically NO!

Response by PVT Mark Brown made Jun 29 at 2017 1:14 PM

2017-06-29T13:14:15-04:00

And, one more thing. You choice of words. "trump"

Response by PFC Frederick Morrow made Jun 29 at 2017 5:32 PM

2017-06-29T17:32:51-04:00

“Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

― Benjamin Franklin

Response by TSgt James Carson made Jun 29 at 2017 10:44 PM

2017-06-29T22:44:24-04:00

Americans are accustomed to having someone else take care of things in our lives and don't seem to realize we are being ripped off in fees, taxes, delays in travel, and freedoms due to our own laziness. We used to resist others getting into our lives. Now we cannot seem to do anything by ourselves. We have become the sheep we laugh at and scorn. We allowed government to tell us how to and when we can travel. To call the police and wait for them to maybe show up. We aren't allowed to protect ourselves and family or property because WE will go to jail and lose all we have worked for, because government has to get it's cut using the law. We gave in to this mess, and we have to reverse the trend we allowed to happen. As of twelve years ago the government is able to listen in on our phone calls, internet messes, and conversations in general. They only lack having to leave their coffee and donuts to round up would be terrorists. When they do catch them, they let them go, but put a man in a dark deep cell for making a movie that no one watched. We allowed them to follow us around, now they have found ways to bill us for it. They'll keep letting bad guys go as long as they want to reinforce their activities and purpose.

Response by CPT Wes Marsh made Jun 30 at 2017 12:42 PM

2017-06-30T12:42:24-04:00

The threat to the core values of any society comes from within rather than from direct onslaught from the outside.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Jul 7 at 2017 9:04 PM

2017-07-07T21:04:33-04:00

Better yet, whatever happened to all of the militias who were supposed to be protecting the constitution. I guess they returned to the swamp that had spit them out

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Jul 7 at 2017 9:28 PM

2017-07-07T21:28:53-04:00

If we're talking immigration being restricted, those who are not citizens of the USA have no inherent right to come here.
If we're talking generalities, I don't believe being inconvenienced is equivalent to losing those freedoms guaranteed by our constitution.

Response by MSgt James "Buck" Buchanan made Jul 11 at 2017 11:41 PM

2017-07-11T23:41:02-04:00

Security trumps liberty because we now have a couple of generations of people who take the liberties we have been blessed with for granted without understanding any of the responsibility that goes along with both using and defending those freedoms.

Response by Cpl Robert Crockett made Jul 14 at 2017 10:14 PM

2017-07-14T22:14:25-04:00

The call for security reads more like cowardice to me! Take all those high-priced ticket-selling prancing policemen, excreted from every orifice and crack from the ever multiple layers of the government, and let me strap on my own doggone pistol and carry the rifle of my choice. Better yet, let me say hello to my fellow man, and let me answer to my fellow man as to my choice of firearms and equipment! It would be impossible for it to be any worse than what exists today. At least, I would sleep better at nights!

Response by Capt Karlos Nordinsifeller made Jul 22 at 2017 3:57 PM

2017-07-22T15:57:50-04:00

No. While we take "legal actions" against unlawful combatants (instead of execution or imprisonment until cessation of hostilities) we treat our civil population as if they were at war. While treating the enemy as common criminals. This results in the legalistic treatment of enemy combatants and the restricted liberty of sovereign citizens. "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security will enjoy neither". I believe this war has been won before against the "Musselmen" in Tripoli who were kidnapping a enslaving Americans in Tripoli. If our Federal forces can't fight this war the President should grant letters of Marquee against non-state enemy organizations like ISIS and Al Queda.

Response by PO3 Andrew Kelly made Jul 31 at 2017 1:24 PM

2017-07-31T13:24:55-04:00

I said this 15 years ago and I stand by it. Osama Bin Ladin succeeded and by his standards won the battle once we passed the so called Patriot Acts.
The goal of terrorism is to cause the victim to alter their actions in response to you. We did that. By passing the Patriot acts we traded away some of our liberties and constitutional protections in return for some perceived security.
20 years ago we would not have stood still for the treatment we receive regularly now at the hands of the TSA. If the revelations of the NSA data mining had broken then we would have cried out for indictments and removal of the individuals involved but now we settle for some lukewarm promises of reviews of the procedures.
One of the few positive things to grow out of the events of 9/11 was the creation of the DHS, it is possible that if there had been better coordination between agencies before the attack the attacks may never have had a chance to succeed.
Though I realize that the statement is misquoted all too often because the situation Franklin was addressing was not the same but it resonates well to this situation.
"People who are willing to trade a bit of their security to purchase security deserve neither."

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Aug 3 at 2017 11:46 PM

2017-08-03T23:46:20-04:00

I can appreciate people valuing history, but the truth is our founding fathers lived in a world so vastly different from ours that asking their opinion on current matters is akin to asking a bronze age blacksmith their opinion of the internal circuitry of a Lamborghini. I suspect the founding fathers would be more likely to burn you at the stake for witchcraft once you step out of your time machine than they would be to have a relevant opinion on the world today....

Response by SGT Peter Hayes made Aug 4 at 2017 11:57 AM

2017-08-04T11:57:54-04:00

If you give up your freedoms for Security you will not be free or secure.

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Aug 6 at 2017 7:40 PM

2017-08-06T19:40:29-04:00

Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.. Ben Franklin

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2017 8:39 AM

2017-08-10T08:39:48-04:00

I have only glanced at the comments. However, I for one have no problem with CCTV everywhere public. Reading my emails and eves dropping on my conversations as long as the punishments for unmasking my file for anything less than National Security carries a very severe penalty.
Less than national security would include all other crimes down to and including scratching my self.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2017 9:10 AM

2017-08-10T09:10:24-04:00

Is this complementary to the values of Founders? It is necessary or there will be no freedom. No America.

Response by MSgt Jeff Greene made Aug 19 at 2017 9:31 AM

2017-08-19T09:31:57-04:00

Once the TSA was created and not allowed to focus on the type of people who commit the terrorist activities the terrorists won. We treat everyone at the airport as a criminal. Take off your shoes, remove your belt, empty EVERYTHING out of your pockets, etc, etc, etc. Just flew home from Las Vegas and had a hotel coupon book in my pocket (paper). Because of that, they almost did a body cavity search on me. I use my military ID when I go through the checkpoint. They say thank you for your service, now take of your clothes so we can be sure you're not carrying anything illegal. We have allowed fear to overcome common sense.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2017 9:50 AM

2017-08-21T09:50:13-04:00

Interesting to read this discussion in the light of seven months. Seven months ago people interpreted the question in terms of the travel ban. But that issue is no longer the political hot topic the media is telling people to be concerned about. Instead we are supposed to worry about a handful of neo-nazi, racist, extremist skinheads (but not the opposite extreme antifa, BLM, & cries to "impeach" who certainly seem to be taking pages right out of the socialist/communist revolutionary play book). My sense is We The People are being played. To what end? I have my opinions. But I know who loses when any government gains more power, the common people. #LegalizeFreedom

Response by SSG Don Waggoner made Aug 31 at 2017 1:30 PM

2017-08-31T13:30:56-04:00

I'm not sure what you mean by "complementary to the values of the Founders." That word, complementary, means to enhance or emphasize the qualities of, in this case, the values of the Founders. I don't think giving up any part of liberty for more security enhances the blessings of liberty embodied in the Constitution. The government has the means by which to find probable cause to ferret out the bad guys and contraband without violating that standard. But, government agents are too lazy to do the work right and be sure of their accusations before making them. Rather, they assume everyone is bad and it becomes up to the individual citizen to prove his or her innocence. There are hundreds and thousands of government agent encounters with citizens everyday, during which searches (often consensual) are made and nothing is found, thereby wasting the time of both agent and citizen. The liberty of the citizen to move freely about is sacrificed in the name of very little security. If this is what the under 40 crowd wants, then just continue to ignore the attacks on liberty. The people you elect to office does matter.

Response by PO3 Garry Reed made Sep 4 at 2017 1:15 AM

2017-09-04T01:15:53-04:00

Our American Liberties have been slowely eroded. So slow most people can't even notice. You cant even walk down the street without an Id. This goes back to natzi Germany were you must have papers to travel. We have a federal government whose only charter under the constitution is the deffense of the nation. Making laws that effect or everyday lives. Big business has bought our government. Until we remove that money from government. We will all continue to be slaves to big business. We need to get back to our constitution. We don't need lawyers to interpret it. It was written in common language. It means what it says. Not what someone interprets it to mean.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 21 at 2017 3:42 PM

2017-09-21T15:42:05-04:00

"The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants" -- Albert Camus

Response by SP5 Michael Motl made Sep 22 at 2017 8:27 PM

2017-09-22T20:27:14-04:00

I agree with Mr. Jefferson!

Response by LCpl Michael Parker made Sep 25 at 2017 3:16 AM

2017-09-25T03:16:54-04:00

I do not like the Vocabulary but not the sentiment. POTUS is a throwback to cold war erea.
his thinking is not outdated; just the vocab. Americans have got used to Politicans say one thing then
doing what ever they like. the Media by enlarge being soft and afraid of saying something ppl. get offended by have joined to bash Trump and his family. Freedom and Liberty are cornerstones
of America but Security today is viewed as being evil or at least bad those who don't serve preach this that millitary and even lawenforcemet are bad. yet they would sing a totally different song If
they were victimized by unruelly crowds or babby Kim sent a Nuke then the story would be Trump can not provide security. I truely believe if his bathrrom habits were "leaked" they would say it is wrong. again perhaps bad vocab. but not bad in context of what trying to be conveyed.

Response by PO1 Don Mac Intyre made Oct 5 at 2017 9:59 AM

2017-10-05T09:59:34-04:00

What do you mean by "now"? We the people have traded liberty for security for quite some time. In fact, most times it wasn't traded, it was surrendered willfully.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2017 8:19 AM

2017-10-25T08:19:05-04:00

Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Response by Cpl Christopher Bishop made Nov 8 at 2017 5:01 PM

2017-11-08T17:01:03-05:00

With the risks in having no security, your own death will eliminate your liberty.

Response by SPC Joseph Durham made Nov 10 at 2017 12:21 AM

2017-11-10T00:21:09-05:00

First, lets look at the times of our founding and compare to now.
Slavery was an issue at the start of our country. Having slaves was almost a status marker. So, when Thomas Jefferson uttered those words, he was talking about exactly what the words say. Today, it is metaphorical to utter those words. And we went through the rough parts of our history correcting something that should have never happened here - slavery.
Now we are so mired in verbiage and headline news politics that even speaking about something can get you into trouble. This is not what slavery was. But it is what Liberty is. And a lot of people lost what liberty is to the point where Pastors are in jail for refusing to marry people. Just WTF are we doing? Can't bake cakes or not bake a cake without causing legal problems. WTF!
That is Liberty. That is what the Military should be protecting. Your right to say yes or no.
Sadly, it's not. It's protecting oil prices. It's protect foreign industry. It is doing a lot of help for our country but very little help for our liberties.
If your first action into this country is to break the Law, the Military should stop it. And that's every illegal that comes here. They are the worse of the worse that other countries don't want. Do you know that most illegals would never be allowed in this country. And we have legal means for the people we do want in this country.
So, I am now at a loss. Because the military is not fighting for personnel Liberty. It's fighting for many things, but not Personnel Liberty. If it was, it would be in a court rooms aiming at the Judges. You have the right to eat cake. You do NOT have the right to force a person to make it for you.

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Nov 13 at 2017 6:32 AM

2017-11-13T06:32:12-05:00

Mr. Jefferson is on point.. and so is
Ben Franklin; “those that trade essential liberty for a little security, deserve neither.” That’s pretty close, and covers it.

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made Nov 21 at 2017 10:04 PM

2017-11-21T22:04:20-05:00

After what happened on 9/11, and what has continued to happen in places like Vegas, this issue will constantly be debated.

Response by SPC Byron Skinner made Nov 26 at 2017 3:47 PM

2017-11-26T15:47:07-05:00

Sp4 Byron Skinner. I can'y say it any better the Adam Smith did in his Glasgow lectures of 1775 when discussing a market economy. " a man is faced with the choice of personal (physical) security and freedom (economic) he will alway chose security". From the context of the lecture it is clear that Adam Smith felt the two will never be compatible and that man will always opt for security over risk. The degree of economic insecurity (risk) that a person is willing to accept is most likely a part that genetics plat in an individuals make up as compared to "Flight or Fight".

Response by PO1 Gregg Mundy made Dec 7 at 2017 11:00 PM

2017-12-07T23:00:26-05:00

"DO YOU HAVE LIBERTY / FREEDOM WITHOUT SECURITY"??

Response by TSgt James Carson made Dec 8 at 2017 1:31 PM

2017-12-08T13:31:46-05:00

Security on military facilities is one thing. Security of the masses is another. As said by our founders. You allow others to protect you at your own peril of loosing your freedoms. Big government can't do allot of good. It takes it's citizens to protect or defend their freedoms.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2017 7:59 AM

2017-12-24T07:59:57-05:00

Once Freedoms and Liberty are take away it’s almost impossible to get them back just remember Governments want control over People instead of the People being in power. There must always be equality and freedom no compromises!

Response by SFC Jason Lucier made Dec 30 at 2017 11:44 AM

2017-12-30T11:44:15-05:00

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Attributed to Ben Franklin. In my humble opinion, the "Patriot Act" and the MOU for the use of force after 9/11 were two of the worst pieces of legislation ever enacted by congress, and signed by a president. Americans lost all around, and both divided the nation against itself.

Response by SPC Gary Hunt made Jan 3 at 2018 9:38 PM

2018-01-03T21:38:37-05:00

It gives the government more control over out lives.
There is an old saying, "The King can do no wrong". And, the government has provided that protection to almost all of its employees.
Rather than a single king, now we have hundreds of thousands of them, at the expense of our liberty -- under the guise of security.

Response by Al Reynolds made Jan 3 at 2018 10:44 PM

2018-01-03T22:44:16-05:00

I believe the short answer is because Americans have become lazy in regards to their government... Americans have allowed government to make all the rules for too many years... thus we have security over liberty.

…..........................

The Federal government decided how history should be taught nationwide back in 1909... and to my knowledge their curriculum has been followed ever since.

Americans became accustomed to the Federal Government making laws that would instantly correct whatever woes they had back in their home state... Allowing the government to make laws governing their lives has become common place ….and … this is the rub.... Because it is easier and is sometimes more efficient to allow the government to do things. Too often people are yelling at each other over coffee that there should be a 'Federal Law' for this or that.....!!!

Hoover was able to make kidnapping a Federal offense with the Lindbergh kidnapping.... It made since.... the FBI had the resources and they were more efficient then local law enforcement at the time.... Americans bought into this without understanding the political significance... Hoover knew only rich folks were kidnapped.... A kidnapping was good press for our beloved FBI.

Times have changed but the law has not... Today a father who kidnaps his children away from his estranged wife has committed a federal offense... (If local law enforcement wants to play it that way.)

Should the Federal government be able to black mail sanctuary cities just like the Federal government blackmails the public school system.... Nation wide.... Why should the Federal government have so much money that they can demand certain behavior from schools, health departments, and now Sanctuary cities...?

I believe the American people need to study the constitution again and again.... and I believe the American people need to take more responsibility for themselves on the local level.. Should a county judge be allowed to sign a search warrant for the home of a person who is thought to be a threat to himself or to others (for firearms) … and if they confiscate firearms what does a person have to do to have them returned.... Join the Boy Scouts?

The latest danger is the 'Too much cash” scenario. The Federal government has said that I should be treated with suspicion if I pay cash for a new car.... In some cases cash has been confiscated and is ...as we speak... still locked away in a drawer someplace... Why have we allowed the Federal government to do this.... Because we believe it is more convenient to allow the Feds to do what our local law enforcement would take many more hours to do ... and the locals would not be as good at it... Who is better at making a problem disappear than the Federal government.

Security now trumps Liberty because we as a nation have allowed security to trump liberty.

Response by SPC Daniel Bowen made Jan 9 at 2018 12:01 AM

2018-01-09T00:01:18-05:00

Our Founding Fathers had it right, but we must understand and consider where security starts, and where it ends. Self preservation and security is first & foremost an individual responsibility. If we lax in our own personal security and start relying on more protection from police, private security and the government, we are surrendering our rights to personal provided security.

There will always be a give-and-take between security & freedoms, and it is determined by those who provide such security.

The more individual citizens take their own personal security seriously, take on good training and share that with family and friends, will give the government less reason to provide it, and more so, limit the criminal worlds ability and will to act.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made May 10 at 2018 3:50 AM

2018-05-10T03:50:08-04:00

"He who trades liberty for security deserves neither security or liberty" The current attacks on both the 1st amendment and 2nd amendment are part of a larger strategy to strip people of freedoms and give more power to the government, or , to put it bluntly - the democrats. And the liberal youth are buying it hook line and sinker - they want the government to protect them from ideas, thoughts, and words that offend them instead of using their ideas thoughts and words to counter the Jim Spencers of the world - and have absolutely no idea what they are doing and what the consequences of such a thing are - gun control - yet another freedom they are looking to regulate even further hoping that by banning AR-15's they will gain some security and peace - news flash, laws and regulations will not stop someone from getting these rifles and utilizing them to nefarious means. instead - what you do is punish law abiding citizens and further chip away at the freedoms and liberties enjoyed by all citizens. I fear that in the near future, they will accomplish what they are doing, and then it will blow up in their face when the very changes they enacted are then utilized against them. At that point, I will take my rifles, family and pets and move to a remote location and leave them to the bed they made.

Response by SFC Charles Temm made Mar 22 at 2019 8:58 AM

2019-03-22T08:58:36-04:00

simply b/c people have become indoctrinated that security is a right

our education industry/media/pols have enshrined "you can have anything you want, painfree" and it shows increasingly as Americans demand an immediately rewarding, controversy free environment