Why does the Army appear to have a discipline issue with the lower enlisted ranks?

2019-07-29T14:50:10-04:00

Please understand, I am NOT bagging on the Army here, I am simply asking a question based on my own observations. I served two tours on two different Army posts and witnessed first hand how lower enlisted soldiers (PV1 through SPC) interacted with soldiers of higher rank (CPL through SSG) and I found their lack of respect and lack of discipline to be a bit disturbing. So, my deeper question is this; is this perceived problem of discipline due to the size of the Army as compared to the Marine Corps where we do not have this type of discipline issue, is it due to smaller unit cohesion, or is it something else? I am writing a white paper on military discipline and any information will be helpful. Remember, at the end of the day, we are one military with different missions toward the same end goal, so please do not use this thread as a means to bash other branches of service. I have not done that to the Army; I have great respect for the Army and for its mission and I am simply looking for others' observations about discipline.

Response by SPC Margaret Higgins made Jul 29 at 2019 2:52 PM

2019-07-29T14:52:04-04:00

I was a Squad Leader; in the Army. I didn't have a problem with discipline. Capt Michael Wilford

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2019 3:04 PM

2019-07-29T15:04:15-04:00

I see it more outside of combat arms. It starts at basic and AIT. It may be the failure of the DS and instructors for not maintaining and upholding the standard. But you are correct. The Army has a discipline problem and it's much more abundant in non-combat arms MOSs.

If you are writing a paper I doubt anything on RP will be valid enough to give you good info. Just a bunch of individual experiences. I'd have to imagine there's so good literature out there in military-oriented databases that can give you some insight into the issue. Hopefully based on a larger population sample.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Jul 29 at 2019 3:10 PM

2019-07-29T15:10:25-04:00

The troops always hide things from "the old man". What I saw as "kibbitzing" between them may have been symptomatic of more serious problems but as long as my subordinate leaders didn't ask for my help and the mission was accomplished/the job completed satisfactorily, I assumed all was well. Indeed, only once in my four and a half years as an officer on active duty did a sergeant E-7 bring a subordinate Spec E-5 to me who had refused to obey an order, and I intervened.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2019 3:31 PM

2019-07-29T15:31:29-04:00

I don't believe there is a single factor, but I'd argue that my Soldiers in every unit I served were no less disciplined than any service member. I believe discipline is dependent on the leader, not the branch.
It would be interesting to see a comparison of NJP by branch, but I doubt it be broken down by article of UCMJ violated.
If there is a difference, other than perceived, I'd lean to the towards the pre-enlistment perception of the recruit, and size of that branch. I'd add the drive of Marine NCOs to maintain that perception/ reputation.
A good source would be those who served in both.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Jul 29 at 2019 3:40 PM

2019-07-29T15:40:56-04:00

In my experience the level of discipline depends on the unit and it's atmosphere and command climate.
There were units that were very well disciplined across the board with a long history of superior performance, professionalism and esprit de corps, reading recent articles that level of professionalism lives on in those outfits.
There were others that required a great deal of effort to instill and maintain discipline where you felt like you were trying to turn a battleship with a row boat. They had a long running history of poor performance and underachievement. Again they pop up in articles that highlight training accidents with root causes being failure to enforce basic policy and procedures, misconduct and gross indiscipline.
Again my opinion is that with the long war rather than understanding that good discipline and enforcement of actual standards (not the FM 22- because-I-said-so standards) promotes attention to detail and esprit de corps; folks started feeling sorry for the Soldiers and letting little things slide which in turn degraded basic discipline. I'm also not a fan of the new promotion system and changes to NCOES. The old Resident NCO academies while draconian pains in the buttocks, instilled a sense of pride in accomplishment and drilled home basic leadership techniques and traits . We see the difference nearly daily here on RP with SGTs asking questions about things that used to be drilled home in the old Primary Leadership Development Course that morphed into PLC then to WLC.
My recommendation would be to bring back the resident NCOES courses, ditch the on line learning; resume the train, select, promote model which was effective but more costly.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2019 3:41 PM

2019-07-29T15:41:00-04:00

You're not wrong. And the problem starts with the NCO's that don't enforce the standard, and those NCO's that don't follow the standards.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Jul 29 at 2019 3:55 PM

2019-07-29T15:55:24-04:00

Shoot, I don't know. A lot of the long-timers seem to think so, so while it's anecdotal, and perhaps worthy of a little pinch of salt, I am inclined to listen to what they have to say. I was only in for 8 years between my Active and Reserve time--and that just ended a couple years ago--so I have no actual historical perspective. I would echo what someone else here said when they noted there are differences between the combat and soft-skill MOSs; insofar as what I witnessed. Whether that's an observation that holds across the board or is applicable to, say, just soft-skill MOS Reservists and not Active I don't' know. I do know discipline was very important when I was on Active Duty though.

Just my limited observations. Take 'em for what they're worth.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jul 29 at 2019 4:28 PM

2019-07-29T16:28:33-04:00

Before I could comment I would have to know what bases you served on with the Army.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2019 4:58 PM

2019-07-29T16:58:51-04:00

Capt Michael Wilford great question, but I'd like to ask you one as well. Is the experience you described from your late 1990s-early 2000s service, or are you referring to more recent times?

I ask because I have always felt that part of this discipline decline perception is almost universal for each generation that serves, like the "when was "old school" question. I went in in 1977, shortly after the start of the all volunteer Army. There was constant chatter about lowering of standards, lack of discipline, softer soldiers who demand to know "why", etc. Then, around the end of the 1980s the Army changed basic training, and THAT became the "soft, undisciplined" Army and the mid 70s became old school. By the late 1990s, THEY became the soft group. And so on. So when I got out in 1999, the feeling was that soldiers coming in were less disciplined, less fit and more questioning than ever. And the possible causes put forth were the same as today. Maybe it's drill sergeants not being demanding enough, maybe it's PT not being a priority anymore, etc.

Yet today, on RP, I read threads about how we need to go back to the old school discipline and fitness regimes of the 1980s and 90s! Go figure. So in a way I wonder if things are really as bad as it seems. The bad soldier always sticks out, catches ones attention, and makes an impression that is remembered. But consider what you remember more-- one soldier you see walk by an officer without saluting and talking back when stopped, or the 10 or 20 you walk by who salute and you walk on by with little thought.

I have no clue what it is like in units today. But I am confident that the cause remains the same. As they say, "your standards are what you allow to occur around you". So if troops are often out of shape and disrespectful, that is a problem with the competence of the company grade officers and NCOs of the unit, not the privates. Privates arent the ones setting the standards (or shouldnt be). Yet on these types of message boards, it is usually phrased like "the Army" lowered its standards, or "the Army" coddles troops, but no one seems to say "my platoon sergeant" or "my platoon leader" or god forbid, "I" may be part of the problem. I doubt the Chief of Staff of the Army decides how to handle an individual disrespectful private.

A subordinate wanting to know the "why" behind an order or mission isnt in itself disrespectful. Hell, decades ago the Army added the Commanders Intent (the why) as part of the OPORD format. Because if subordinates know why they are doing something, it allows them to react betterif conditions change. The classic example was if the mission is to take hill 123 in order to destroy the enemy, and as you approach you see they are in the valley instead of on the hill, you know to still attack the enemy vs seizing an empty hill. So we.have been training our people to ask why for years.

Anyway, I just wonder how bad things really are compared to the past. I spent my time in Airborne units, and there were always other units less in shape and less disciplined than we were. So I suspect that the overall impression may be a selection bias that makes people remember the negative incidents more than the positive. But I'm just guessing.

Response by CSM William Everroad made Jul 29 at 2019 5:21 PM

2019-07-29T17:21:42-04:00

Lot of great responses here. If you are writing a white paper you will have to define your terms. Respect and discipline have very different meanings and they tend to differ between junior and senior enlisted ranks and even among officers and branch. Further each can be different in tactical or garrison environment.
Anecdotally, I have interacted with units who "look" undisciplined, but are extremely respectful and tactically proficient and others who walk the walk and salute the salute, but are tactically and technically garbage.
Is it a case of whole units not being disciplined/respectful or individual Soldiers not being disciplined/respectful? If it is a unit issue, you can't really blame the individuals because there is no expectation and accountability for respect and discipline. If it is a Soldier issue, one-off cases, then is could be a leader issue.
Disrespect and poor discipline thrive in environments where there is no accountability, so if we have a discipline and respect issue in the Army, it is simply because we have a leader problem.
I have heard senior leaders complain about discipline issues in their units, but when asked how many company grade ART15s they recommend, I get blank stares and excuses of not wanting to ruin a Soldiers' career. You can only yell at a rock so many times, it is our job as NCOs to enforce the standard, but sometimes it just easier to get stuff done if you cut them some "slack". The downside is slack starts becoming a culture.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2019 5:29 PM

2019-07-29T17:29:12-04:00

It's more what part of the Army you're in. The Army is really more like several Armies under one banner. I've been in units where a PFC stands at parade rest for a SPC, and while in that unit witnessed another unit where a PFC showed up for a detail without a blouse or hat, and his NCO had to practically beg him to go get his stuff.

Why does this happen and why is the USMC different? Well the USMC is a brand. There's one single brand. The Army is a bunch of brands. The pride of a paratrooper is to the 82nd, or the 173rd, whatever unit they're from, not "The Army". So, units that have a long history of pride and service, tend to have a higher level of discipline.

Response by SFC J Fullerton made Jul 29 at 2019 5:29 PM

2019-07-29T17:29:15-04:00

I retired in 2013, so my perspective is a little dated. Discipline always seemed to vary from unit to unit, culture and climate in the organization usually being the main factor. Although, I think every branch probably has its issues and culture/climate being the root cause. For example, the USMC making the news with hazing incidents, usually E-3's and E-4's asserting themselves over the new privates in ridiculous ways. That would be a discipline problem in its own right, but that behavior is frowned upon in public, and condoned behind closed doors. If it is against policy, why does it keep happening? Maybe its the culture. Same goes for poor discipline in some Army units. If its allowed, it becomes the culture and will keep happening until leadership changes the culture.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Jul 29 at 2019 5:59 PM

2019-07-29T17:59:52-04:00

For the same reason, the entire United States of America has a discipline issue with military-age males and females

It’s an environment/generational issue all across the US less than 1% of those joined the Army and now we have the same issues as seen in every major city, college

Response by SPC Casey Ashfield made Jul 29 at 2019 7:05 PM

2019-07-29T19:05:20-04:00

Perhaps you could elaborate a little more. When I was PV2/PFC, it was parade rest for anyone above me, which in short was everyone. My team and squad leaders were SGT or SSG rank who were always addressed by rank (just "Sergeant" instead of Staff Sergeant like USMC) or rank/name. The first time I ever called a NCO by a nickname was 7 months into a 12 month deployment, by then there was plenty of mutual respect. What I noticed in my final Army months was much of it depended on unit. Infantry units have more respect for their combat experienced NCOs than non-infantry units, in general.

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made Jul 29 at 2019 7:17 PM

2019-07-29T19:17:15-04:00

While not Army, I don't think the situation is much different in any of the services. To me what you describe as lack of discipline is the view of what I refer to as the 'black and white mentality'. If something isn't exactly as a person with that mentality expects it to be the outcome is viewed as a lack of something, in your case discipline. The problem is that in the military there is a huge grey area between those black and white goal posts. If the higher ranking soldiers didn't see an interaction with lower ranking soldiers as lack of respect or discipline then I suspect the scenario occurred in that grey area. The 'black and white mentality' will never grasp that concept, so my advice is suck it up and move on or try to understand that grey areas exist. Heck in my past life even special weapons maintenance procedures had grey areas so to think that military discipline doesn't have them is totally out of the realm of reality.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Jul 29 at 2019 8:36 PM

2019-07-29T20:36:41-04:00

Believe me, when I was USAF, I occasionally saw some similar stuff myself, albeit relatively rarely...honestly, I think all svcs probably have similar problems...I only saw such things a few times, of course, not on any sort of constant basis...I also occasionally saw such stuff in other svcs, as well, though, once again, only very rarely, certainly....

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Jul 29 at 2019 9:32 PM

2019-07-29T21:32:07-04:00

I don't believe you can generalize about any of the services. The CO of a unit and the unit staff set the tone for interaction between the ranks.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2019 10:24 PM

2019-07-29T22:24:00-04:00

Attitude and behavior reflect leadership. You could ask, “why does the Army (or military, in general) have a discipline issue with the higher enlisted and officer ranks?”

It’s not a simple question, and there isn’t one simple answer. Additionally, it’s not limited to the Army. Having worked primarily in joint environments, it was my experience that the Marines most often confused ‘discipline’ as a synonym for ‘professionalism’ or ‘respect’. However, They don’t mean the same thing. Marines were often the most unprofessional, disrespectful and ultimately, ineffective team members.

Much like headlines with higher ranking folks (across all services) acting ridiculous, headlines involving Marines doing ridiculous sh*t aren’t hard to find. From self-inflicted gutshots to mass roundups at battalion formations, to murdering Soldiers to etc etc, “Marines acting crazy” is an easy, common story to find.

The only thing that the Marines are elite at is instilling the idea in Marines that they are elite. But the Corps absolutely has a discipline issue; as much as any branch of service. They’re just more hyper focused on looking good to support the image. That stated, the Army isn’t perfect. There are a lot of valid answers to the question, and each would warrant their own paper.

A simple one is that as new generations come up in the Services, the older ones find them undisciplined. The WWI guys thought the WWII/Korea guys were undisciplined. The WWII/Korea guys thought the Vietnam guys were undisciplined. The Vietnam guys thought the Gulf war guys were undisciplined. The Gulf War guys thought the GWOT guys are undisciplined. The GWOT guys are going to think The ____ War guys are undisciplined. Etc. Just the nature of the beast. It’s kinda like why parents don’t like their kids’ music. And the Grandparents didn’t like the Parents’ music.

Another simple one is that folks are just more aware of large scale, service wide problems. 20 years ago, if a Marine in DC shot himself in the stomach or if a Soldier in Florida got arrested for drug smuggling, odds are that the average PFC Snuffy wasn’t going to hear about. But in the past few decades, things like 24 hour nonstop news channels and smartphones and the internet have exploded like a Gremlin that ate past midnight. Every transgression, big and small, is available to just about everyone all the time. That makes it harder to diminish, and also makes it appear amplified. Similar to crime statistics in the US. Every statistic indicates that violent crime and mass shootings are at low points, but with heightened, nonstop coverage, it simply seems like they’re getting worse.

Another answer would be as to how you define ‘discipline’. I touched on it previously, but ‘discipline’ isn’t synonymous with ‘respect’ or ‘professionalism’. If I had to ask a service member to drive my car 1000 miles, and get it there in two days with no dents and a full tank of gas, I’d ask a Marine. If I had to ask a service member to drive my Girlfriend 1000 miles, and make sure she gets there in two days with no dents, I would ask any other branch. Who cares if the car gets a few scratches. The girl, I trust. The average Marine, Maybe not so much.

Ultimately, leaders get out what they put in. There has and will always be good/bad, disciplined/undisciplined Soldiers, Marines, Sailors, Airmen. It’s not a new phenomenon. But ultimately, If leaders want more discipline, then leaders need to conduct themselves in a more disciplined manner.

Sorry for getting a bit long winded. Best of luck.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2019 10:46 PM

2019-07-29T22:46:07-04:00

It appears the Marines are not quite the role model for discipline and respect these days either. Looks like there is a white papers worth of screw ups just at Camp LeJune. ;)

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2019/05/02/crackdown-at-lejeune-inside-the-2nd-marine-division-commanders-controversial-call-for-discipline/

Crackdown at Lejeune: Inside the 2nd Marine Division commander’s controversial call for...

Why the commanding general of 2nd Marine Division is not backing down.

Response by CPL Gary Pifer made Jul 29 at 2019 11:28 PM

2019-07-29T23:28:33-04:00

I've served in the Active duty Marines, Army and reserves Army National Guard, Air Force, Marines. 16 years spanning 1974 to 2004. I have seen the real underbelly of the Service with murders, rapes , assaults. The crime and drug use in the Marines 1974 to 75 was rampant until they cracked down in 1976. Drug testing, dogs etc. I use to escort prisoners
.. mostly murders and worked some in a correctional facility..

It was Rampant in the Guard aswell until the DOD cracked down after the USS Nimitz crash in 1981. The Guard was relaxed and was fueled by drinking and drugs. Many troops were gang members who were given the choice jail or guard. What Mayhem that turned out to be. We had assaults and murders. The Air Force was very relaxed with no problems. The Gulf War era Guard was professional and Active Duty like. The 2003 Army was professional but with super bad behavior by women. The language and sex. Saw some assault and rape aftermath, normally dependent wives playing around at the club while husband is deployed. During my time I have seen or came across some really bad behavior by the Officer Corps. NCO's.. Normally prostitution... Adultry... Sexual harassment..etc.. my behaviour was not the best at times. Thus the CPL rank. But I would conclude that discipline is from the top down and if you give a inch.. human nature will take the mile.

Response by PO3 Adam Stoflet made Jul 29 at 2019 11:55 PM

2019-07-29T23:55:58-04:00

From all the talk I have heard from my time in the Navy we had a slightly similar issue. For us the East Coast tended to be more strict, disciplined and tighter on the rules than the West Coast Navy. The same could also be said for the Big Navy (Aircraft Carriers) they tended to be more of a corporate structure and less tolerant of breaking the rules while at the same time you were just another face in the crowd. Conversely in the Small Navy ( Destoyers, Crusiers, Frigates) we where a lot less formal and a little more personal. We could be more understanding but if you stepped out of line everybody knew about. Also we had smaller groups with clear line for the chain of command which I think allowed us to handing things more directly and in house then a larger group of people like the army. CO->XO->Department head-> Specialty Officer (Main Propulsion Assistant, Damage Contol Assistant)->Division Officer. Command Master Chief (E-9)-> Departmental Leading Chief Petty Officer (LCPO) (E-8)-> Divison LCPO(E-7)-> Leading Petty Officer (LPO) (E-6). Also I would say that the rank culture in the Navy is vastly different. E1-3 are generally all treated as the same and you don’t have an E3 bossing and telling E1’s around and if you did people would raise an eyebrow and probably stop you. E4’s aren’t really look at too differently other than a you should know better / get your act together because you’re gonna start being in a real leadership position in the future. E5 is when hey you’re 2nd Class Petty Officer you know what needs to be done and help those bellow you get the job done. E6 your in charge now and if it’s wrong fix it. E7 you’re coming to me because something is really messed up and the Ship is gonna be affected because of it or you can’t find the 1st class.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Jul 30 at 2019 12:10 AM

2019-07-30T00:10:15-04:00

IMO because much of the NCO corps has lost its backbone. We spend way too much time coddling and "mentoring" and much less time enforcing standards. When I was a private my leaders asked me to do nothing. I was told what to do and how to do it. I get frustrated with an endless string of "why?" after giving simple, concise, and clear instructions. I once told a new private to go ask top the question of why. They returned and the private in the front leaning rest was told, "why...because I directed you to." I'm not going to answer why on the battlefield and someone's hesitation or less than full commitment may get someone or some people needlessly killed. I am sick of why.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Jul 30 at 2019 12:23 AM

2019-07-30T00:23:57-04:00

It's a combination of things that is force wide, not just the Army. The Marines have less of a problem with it due to their smaller size and cohesion. It's a problem that is a perfect storm born of culture, the military being used as a political test tube and leadership not being properly trained, supervised and brought up through the ranks. The pass it on, it will be ok mentality run amok.

The Army is further hampered by the fact that that there is no one standard and that the standard deviates Unit to Unit, MOS to MOS. Frankly the Army needs to hit that reset button, kick loose a lot of this PC and buddy culture and have ONE standard across the board and get back to being an Army rather than a nanny daycare.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2019 1:25 AM

2019-07-30T01:25:25-04:00

Let me add my 2 cent into this, its because a lot of high ranking people think they are more of a person than say the lower enlisted and they had enough. Remarks complete

Response by 1SG Jason Almond made Jul 30 at 2019 2:02 AM

2019-07-30T02:02:32-04:00

Lots of great comments- I agree with 99%, but I’ll offer another thought.

Is some of this the cause of the protracted GWOT? I think the lack of professionalism in the Army at the end of Vietnam was pretty well documented.
Leaders churn and burn so fast and so many were simply biding time to get out, discipline was someone else’s problem. Add in what everyone else is saying, but I think a constantly deploying force will suffer a drop in professionalism over time.

Just a thought.

Response by AB Edward Mondini made Jul 30 at 2019 2:38 AM

2019-07-30T02:38:38-04:00

The first question that comes to mind: from where did these low-rank recruits learn to be disrespectful? They had to see it occurring elsewhere & decided to emulate it. Meaning someone of higher
rank failed to enforce discipline. Oh oh......now the recruit has the green light to continue his path to eventual dishonorable discharge.
Now my next question: what favor is a soldier of higher rank doing to that recruit by failing to enforce discipline?
What I mean is: eventually that recruit will return to civilian life & there’s no company I know that’ll put up with undisciplined behavior reinforced while in the military.
So now we have an undisciplined vet with no job and probably an arrest record.
All because one individual of higher rank was too lazy to enforce discipline several years earlier. Perhaps that one moment of reinforcing discipline could have changed the life story of a former refusenik.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jul 30 at 2019 6:32 AM

2019-07-30T06:32:57-04:00

It begins with recruitment, the size of the Corps has always lent to the availability of recruits, the Corps can afford to pick and choose from the nations available population. The mere size of the Army and recruiting challenges results in waiver after waiver from the available population. Those with prior service and RE codes that are unfaivorable, young adults with backgrounds who have files sealed, etc. when you shake the tree of the Few and the Proud the pool to refill the ranks is large, when you shake that tree from an Army of many the pool is reduced.

Once in service the culture of our citizens begins to take shape within the ranks, tats, hair styles, mommy issues, the why generation and simply the why not generation. Those who did not respect their teachers, and parents will not likely respect the authority of those they do not know. Once it is evident that they are not fitting in, the process begins. Unfortunately that leads to what else culture provides, young leaders who have slid up in an environment based in questions.

These young leaders who are ill equipped based on the own moral fiber and lack of true identity, fail to coach, council and mentor in a way that is substantive. Back to the tree, the Marine tree is a bush in the grand scheme, the Army’s in essence a forest.

This had been true for decades, I entiered service in 1980, culture had both positive and negative effects, even though discipline was at a peak, there were those who failed to make the grade and were sent home in short order. The forest has deep roots, the trees before the forest will always stand tall, the saplings who fall will be either better or lesser for the ware. Society is he root cause, reshaping men and women is more challenging as society has become much more of a complex machine.

I ramble but if you read into the text, you will find that it is as it was, it is simply bigger and more complex, the issue of societal norms, Family values, and Core beliefs. Is the top 1 percent the same as it was, and who exactly is competing for them, while offering what they lack.

Thank you for your service.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2019 10:35 AM

2019-07-30T10:35:59-04:00

This is one of those clickbait conversations that you're better off not participating in because those who do have usually made up their minds already. Alas, like a car crash on the side of the freeway, sometimes we can't help but participate in the chaos.

Let's baseline a bit. The Army is more than 6x the size of the Marine Corps when we include all active and reserve billets across both branches (about 1,348,000 Soldiers vs. 224,500 Marines). This also means that the Army reflects a larger portion of our national population (roughly 0.5%) than the Corps does (less than 0.1%). As such, the Army is exponentially more subject to the impacts of social change than the Marine Corps, and we should all be able to agree that there's an immense wave of social change in this day and age. Add to all of this that the Marine Corps hand-selects candidates based on a mission-specific profile, or those candidates self-select into a known culture of intense discipline; while the Army take a much more broad-stroke approach to filling its wide array of global personnel shortages. The result of these differentiated recruiting efforts is clear as day from boot camp to front-line formations.

The Marines take land, the Army holds land. As a former Army Infantryman, I was always enthralled with the notion that "every Marine is an Infantryman first." That is surely not the case in the Army, but I know now that there's a benefit to that. If you pack a bunch of Harvard graduates into a room, they'll come up with the stock Harvard answer to any question. If you pack a bunch of grunts into a room, they'll do the same (albeit likely with more vulgarity and resultant injuries). But if you diversify that group of people who serves as the filter which all strategic direction and tactical decision making must pass through, you tend to find that greater decisions come from a greater set of experience. This is the argument for a greater National Guard and Reserve force in the Army, and it's reflected at the highest levels of Army command.

Marines say the Army is soft. Soldiers say the Air Force is soft. Airmen complain that the Navy gets better assignments. Sailors are frustrated by the lack of Kenny Loggins music playing throughout their garrisons. These stereotypes have been in place for decades, and they have nothing to do with one service "catering to generational changes" more than another. Our society changes over time, and organizations with more people will naturally adapt their own culture faster to those changes in an effort to maintain the flow of able bodies needed to fight, sustain, and support our war efforts. And – I'm talking to the Army people on the thread now – if our organization is willing to change to meet its mission objectives, why aren't you? The old "do as I say because I had to when I was your rank" style of running Soldiers was effective in a day and age when a high school diploma was your ticket to a successful career and happy life. Recruits these days come with a wealth of knowledge related to information technology (because it's native to them); many come with more college credits completed than the large majority of our senior-enlisted corps, and all of them know that further education and experience is their path to success. They join to learn, grow, and be mentored by some of our nation's finest leaders. They DO NOT join to be yelled at meaninglessly because "that's the way it is."

A lesson I learned commanding Drill Sergeants was the difference between a great trainer (something every NCO should aspire to be) and a mediocre one. If you can't get through a POI without yelling and cursing at your trainees, it's probably you that needs more training rather than them. If you can't address the junior enlisted population without getting frustrated about "the way they are," it's probably you that needs to consider why the world around you is changing at faster rate than you are. This isn't about being soft. It's not about dropping our standards. It's about being adaptable so that you continue to meet YOUR mission with the resources available.

I'll finish with a simple lesson in communication. If you're on a qualification range, it's not the target's job to catch your bullets. You steady, aim, breath, and squeeze to ensure you hit the target as intended. So why do so many senior leaders talk AT their subordinates and expect them to simply get what they're saying? Did you adjust for cultural windage? Did you take socioeconomic environmental factors into account? Did you even remember to load your magazine with thoughtful messaging designed to drive quality outcomes? As a leader, your words can have more power than bullets (we've all experienced the crushing sensation of a tyrannical leader, right?). Why not give the delivery of those words the same, conscious effort that you give when shooting? You might find that if you aim your communications better, they'll tend to hit the target as intended more often than not.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2019 11:50 AM

2019-07-30T11:50:43-04:00

The Army’s discipline started to slide in 2005 from what I observed personally. But so did the Marine Corps. I will never forget a bunch of marines at Fort Irwin (NTC) who decided to drink in the cantonment area and run their mouths like little kids. A SSG had to police up not just his joes, but the LT as well. It was very sad and pathetic to watch.
Generally speaking, discipline varies based on environment. Combat arms will always have more discipline than a medical unit for example, and for good reason. An E3 in a medical unit must be able to question a doctors (officer) orders and ask the why if needed. The doctor has to recognize a teaching moment vs. a PFC preventing a mistake. In combat arms, if you are told to take the hill, you take the damn hill. These behaviors affect overall discipline.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2019 3:03 PM

2019-07-30T15:03:24-04:00

The military reflects the greater society if comes from. Young people today are not as disciplined as older veterans. They were raised to be selfish, not selfless. A generalization for sure but I believe it to be true. From what I've read, the Marines are not as disciplined now as they once were but I don't have your cross service experience.

Response by SPC John Decker made Jul 30 at 2019 4:30 PM

2019-07-30T16:30:18-04:00

I believe it has more to do with an easing of the punishments, at training level, for lack of respect infractions. I don't know if they still exist (though I know they once did) but I heard some stories about "time-out" cards being issued to basic trainees. I was in before they existed. That added to this "everything is offensive to somebody" mentality that seems to be permeating our culture is surely a big part of what you're seeing.

Response by SPC Rob Lewis made Jul 30 at 2019 5:00 PM

2019-07-30T17:00:02-04:00

IMO, when the military started giving out participation awards and becoming a social club(gender issues, non-deployment, lowering of standards) vs. killing people and breaking things =. The military as a whole started down a path that it is having problems recovering from today.

Response by SSgt Max Gonzales made Jul 30 at 2019 6:54 PM

2019-07-30T18:54:50-04:00

From what I've seen, standards have been lowered,to accommodate our new troops. Can't understand why,the military would be willing to coddle them. We were a tight knit unit all the way through basic. after we got our assignment, were expected to carry ourselves according to military protocol. If not disciplinary action was taken.

Response by PO3 David Davis made Jul 30 at 2019 9:45 PM

2019-07-30T21:45:13-04:00

I can not say for sure. Its stands to reason that the government has run over the military as a whole. They have to have better training and higher physical standards in some cases. Drill instructors are not able to do there job. Sreamong is not there job. Training is.

Response by SFC Don Ward made Jul 30 at 2019 10:04 PM

2019-07-30T22:04:51-04:00

It is adaptation to today's culture. Everyone is so easily offended and we don't want that. AR 350-6 is Trainee Leadership, and the trainee has many more rights under it than someone who has never been in TRADOC could ever understand. And the Privates are briefed on it from day one at the Reception Station. Some of it is good, some not. They cancelled end of course testing for Basic, give out a participation trophy patch in a "patching ceremony" because the Privates don't have combat patches and are jealous. What Division Commander was it that was going to forbid senior personnel from wearing combat patches because the Privates hadnt' earned one?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2019 10:35 PM

2019-07-30T22:35:15-04:00

Bring back hazing or at least real smoke sessions. Get rid of entitlement in the ranks. Having leadership that cares enough to discipline, but also to teach. I have had some amazing NCOs who have smoked the dog shit out of me and who commanded respect, but they’re the same ones I would run through a wall for. I’d follow them into combat any day, in any situation. They are the ones who also taught me how to be tactically and technically proficient. They built trust and set clear expectations. They took ownership of the team, squad, platoon, etc. To the point that it made me want to be better and take more ownership over what I could control to try and pull some burden off their back. The Army has hamstrung it’s good leaders and promoted to many unqualified leaders who could run well. When boards become about finding the intangibles instead of seeing who can regulations and creeds or pt scores pissing contests then they will begin to see a culture change again

Response by SPC Brad Pratt made Jul 31 at 2019 4:59 AM

2019-07-31T04:59:53-04:00

Just like you said, it’s not only the jr. enlisted. Unfortunately it’s not new.
Back in the early 90’s, my company had a SSG. Once he got in his car (while still in BDU’s). He would remove his cover & put on a Malcom X hat.
When his superiors would try & correct him. He would play the race card, even on the Top who was Hispanic.
So nothing got resolved.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2019 7:28 AM

2019-07-31T07:28:02-04:00

I dont see it as a discipline issue, i see it as a cultural one. The Army and Marines are not the same animal. The Marines have embraced a culture that is fitted to expeditionary, high intensity combat. The Army seemingly has been used as a test bed for all sorts of initiatives. On top of that the "professionalism" approach that leaders have pushed for several years now has hog tied leaders from demonstrating the same intensity as our USMC counterparts. I can tell you that when I came in during 2001. It was clear the only rights i had were the ones my NCOs allowed me to have. Now soldiers have rights to their dignity that also contribute to a degree of freedom from the chain of command. As many senior NCOs have grown up in this enviornment, their opinions have been shaped by these entitlements. Now rather than it being a discipline issue, it effects the organizational culture of the army and has become systemic.

That said... the Army is not an expeditionary force in the same manner as the Marines. We are not a global QRF. Because of that we are structured and sustained differently, from the team level up. It is not an apples to apples comparison.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2019 7:39 AM

2019-07-31T07:39:41-04:00

The major problem is guys are getting promoted at a rapid pace some guys still wet behind the ears in the Army have not even deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan and they already Ssg

Response by MSG Pat SingR made Jul 31 at 2019 11:23 AM

2019-07-31T11:23:03-04:00

When you have too many politicians get involved and adding to those crying babies --that's why.

Response by SP5 Dennis Dorsey made Jul 31 at 2019 11:51 AM

2019-07-31T11:51:15-04:00

Though I am not in the service anymore, I saw that starting back in the late 60's. It seems even worse now, even in the private sector. I have seen smart, collage graduates, apply for jobs and think they should start at the top rather than work their way up and I think that is caused by their upbringing and the environment they grew up in.

Response by SCPO Anthony Wingers made Jul 31 at 2019 12:30 PM

2019-07-31T12:30:39-04:00

Start in bootcamp. Return to sixties level. Do not let anyone out of boot without meeting strict standards of behavior and discipline. Actually punish wrong-doers with article 15. It that does not work move it up to spec ct martial. Assign hard labor for those found guilty. Make sure everyone else sees the example. Sweat in training or bleed in combat.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2019 6:53 PM

2019-07-31T18:53:28-04:00

Yes, this is long but it goes a long way to be a little more insightful and consider the different aspects of why it is of what you see. Of course there is a broad range of multiple issues but I emphasize clearly on the well-being of soldiers.

It is the lack of commitment, trust, and competence of leaders who allow disrespect and indiscipline to run rampant. Although I would love to introduce the motion of political integration, instead I will focus on what truly matters.

Upon entering service we are indoctrinated about the values in leadership, as well as how it is implemented, but most of all our commitment to the welfare of soldiers. Units rely heavily on the individual efforts of troops, especially Non-Commissioned Officers and their subordinates upon mission accomplishment. New soldiers to their first unit are motivated and willing to perform but over time being overlooked for skill level expansion and overworked without recognition or much needed mentorship to excel can and will evolve soldiers to become less compliant or the common ‘shitbag’ status perceived we all love to share.

I’ve seen many soldiers who seemed perfect in fact, but due to leadership and the works of our system they get burnt or just exit service altogether realizing the propaganda of recruitment well overrated as well as their potential best utilized elsewhere. Those who have stayed in, either complain and do nothing or idle by on benefits along for the ride of early retirement, unless you have other reasons for staying in.

It is challenging to find good leaders who not only empower soldiers to better themselves but be reliable and trustworthy. Understandably many leaders lose competence over the focus of progression and with the army changing promotions and performance expectations this not only encourages this but also strays further from soldiering in order to meet desired standards. I could invest time to train soldiers but time for myself to involve civilian education, military schools, and performance upon duties & responsibilities, not to mention taking on additional tasks for broadening evaluation performance is literally drained. Don’t forget you’re mix of training requirements, mandatory monthly briefings, and the mission requirements leaving you blown away at the thought of anything more than counseling’s as a resolve. Although how many of you honestly keep up with those? Also for those who do more to make connections and various achievements, good for you.

Also important to note these qualities mean nothing when seeking key positions in order for better chances of guaranteed promotion and progression. A pulled record brief and interview will value the personality and the preferred background performance of the individual whether they fit the bill or not. So don’t stress the importance of being a good leader just whether or not you can fulfill the job requirements expected of you. Quite interesting but sometimes for the best.

I can’t entirely blame leaders for not being leaders through responsibilities and expectations but preventable deaths and consistent disappointment in the system to better the lives of soldiers has taken its toll. The lack of discipline reflects this with acknowledging there are different forms of respect and undisciplined behavior. There is always drama with soldiers over leaders and consistent childish behavior especially with social media but well deserved to how these leaders are leaders in the first place. I must say it is an embarrassment to see more junior soldiers competent in their MOS over non-commissioned officers including things leaders should already know again trumped by junior soldiers. Substandard. Do you not know the implications of that?

So we could look at generational changes, pathetic parenting in what kids are as of now, but lets be realistic and take a deep breath. What we have going on within upon the health verses wealth debate. But yes, it is much different to the Marines Corps of course and your perception of discipline far from what I could maybe imagine to be or out of this world. Personally I lead in a way soldiers can trust as well as confide in me at anytime and provide independence within their roles to strengthen confidence and competence.

It is annoying to see those junior soldiers who have acted like some of the responses below just knowing then I would have been knocked out on the spot but really because they proceed to run to IG or whatever program to hide behind for their actions. They have yet to meet the fear of god honestly.

Curiously, what do you do to enhance soldiers for success and the perceived expectation of discipline? Also for those undisciplined and disrespectful, what resolved it?

Response by PO2 Larry Clark made Jul 31 at 2019 9:11 PM

2019-07-31T21:11:53-04:00

Captain Wilford,
Thank you for your service!
You are seeing the society and Military of today correctly!
Most kids today, or at least of the past 20 years, or so, have been raised Without ANY discipline, and most of the time no father figure, or a father that doesn't train his kids to respect others! They have in retrospect have been taught in the schools, that they are a god unto themselves! So, why should being in the Army, be any different? Kids of today do not respect anyone, other than themselves: BUT expect everyone to give them respect; because of that belief. The kids of today have a growing contempt for older people; especially the elderly and/ or even the disabled, which overflows into their military positions!
Women that want to act like men and do the things that men are expected to do, should have to meet the same criteria: less the arm and other branches are weakened. Men end up putting extra effort out to protect women soldiers! This in itself is discrimination between the sexes! What happened to ""We do not discriminate" If they want the same pay as a man: let them meet the same criteria all the way around!
Obama made the forces weaker, because of all his policies, which in fact were designed, planned, and implemented to destroy this country and it's defensive forces, Military and Police!
It is only going to get worse, unless the Army, Navy, and Air Forces trains it's people, like the Marines do, and even harder, AND they do not put up with lack of respect for the upper ranks!!
"Train up a child in the way he should go and when he gets old; he shall not depart from it!"

I am a 78 going on 79, disabled NAVY ADJ2 (E-5, Aviation Machinist Mate) and I have seen the changes and the deterioration of the our military. My daughter is a Police officer of 18 years and her husband is a disabled Police Officer and ex Marine Spec Forces. They have also seen the changes first hand, mostly caused by Obama and his administration. I don't want to be political: BUT; "I calls it the way I sees it"! as the "ole sayin" goes!
CHANGE IS INEVITABLE: But What changes should not be allowed to effect/affect the totality of our Military?
The Communist manifesto says to conquer a country: "Do not attack a country's shores: Destroy it's society from within, so the lands and resources can then be used by it's conquerors!

We are headed towards being a Socialist Country. Trump might ward it off for a little while; BUT, it will come as the Democratic party, which is now the Socialist Party takes over.

Response by SFC Ernest Thurston made Aug 2 at 2019 10:33 AM

2019-08-02T10:33:36-04:00

This is just from my general experiences. One problem with the Army is not the Army itself it's the civilian leadership using the Army as a testbed for every type of social experiment in society. If a politician wants to get some social agenda pushed through one of the first things they do is force some new regulatons on the Army. Sometimes it's good but many times it doesn't work well in a military environment. The Army was the first to intergrate, even before the country did. The Army was first to bring women into previously all male jobs. Whenever you hear in the news is now doing this or that it means the Army is doing it. There seems to be a hands of policy when it comes to the Marines. It's similar to the difference between Infantry and and Admin clerks. The social ethos is very different. Women and gays were never openly a part of the Infantry, but they have been in the ranks of admin/finance/medic even before the "Don't ask, don't tell". policy. This just some of the reasons that I believe there seems to be a lack of discipline in the Army. The Army reflects what is going on in general society, while the Marines are somewhat insulated from society. Just my opinion.

Response by PO3 Alex Bravo made Aug 2 at 2019 12:18 PM

2019-08-02T12:18:06-04:00

Isn't obvious? A generation expecting entitlements and it is not only the enlisted personnel, it all throughout the whole armed forces at almost all levels. The brass is allowing it and they are the biggest responsible (or irresponsible) for it.
I started in 1996 and left in 2001 wanting to come back and rejected due to a physical injury in 2003. Because I could not come back, I became a civilian chemist while most my buddies went from enlisted personnel to officers ranks.
My buddies are the embodiment of success through sheer intelligence and persistence. However, when I speak with about half of them (still serving), they act like children and do not know what is going on around the world. This is part of their job, to understand and act to protect our country. The top brass that allows for this immaturity must pay regardless of rank and position. Discipline starts at the top and unfortunately, it supposed to start with our commander in chief (not to be political but behavior critical). That is not happening and so, how do you expect to impart discipline when the mature and the military top brass act like entitled children?

Response by MAJ Seth Goldstein made Aug 2 at 2019 2:12 PM

2019-08-02T14:12:21-04:00

I have been out for a few years now but I would think it is not any worse now then ever before. I believe a lot of kids join the military for a variety of reasons and some of them become disenchanted quickly and fall back to their undisciplined ways.

Response by SSG Curtis Vaughn made Aug 2 at 2019 10:43 PM

2019-08-02T22:43:36-04:00

Call it what it is, lack of discipline and respect growing up, thinking they are entitled. When these individuals enter service is the time to mold them teach them, stress card my butt. Things have changed so much, Officers aren't staying in their lane and letting NCOs do their job. NCOs letting Officers do there job, I come from a generation where NCOs lead the way. NCOs train your Soilders to do your job give them responsibility and hold them to a standard. You'd be surprised

Response by MAJ Rene De La Rosa made Aug 2 at 2019 11:41 PM

2019-08-02T23:41:17-04:00

This is problematic and symbolizes the civilian problem at a much closer view.

Response by SFC Patricia Tucker made Aug 3 at 2019 7:59 AM

2019-08-03T07:59:17-04:00

When you change the standards to fit the person, instead of helping the person change to fit an established standard, this is what happens. This occurs, not only in the military, but in civilian life as well.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2019 9:49 AM

2019-08-03T09:49:42-04:00

At a previous duty station a general asked the ORSA team to answer this exact question. After collecting the data and running a regressive analysis on it, it wasn’t rank that was the defining predictor. It was age and to some degree, whether or not you lived in your own between Mom’s house and the Army. But it was an interesting age relationship because the curve dips down for folks around 25 to 35, but then cycles up so there is some lack of discipline uptick in higher ages. A lot of that was due to the SIR data. Lots of domestic spouse on spouse issues with the higher ages that resulted in disciplinary action. There is also a lot of variance between MOSs suggesting there is some leadership differences among our various job branches or our branches tend to attract different types of people.

Response by Cpl Bernard Bates made Aug 3 at 2019 11:34 AM

2019-08-03T11:34:04-04:00

I believe it all starts with basic training. You act like the way you are taught as a child. Boot camp is the same .The Marine Corp is different because you are their for 12 weeks instead of 8. You are also taught Marine Corp History, so you know the standards you have to live up to. You are also learn respect even it they have to do it the hard way. I went thru Boot camp at Parris Island in 59. The Marines had a system whereas if you were a smart ass they put you in Motivation Plt. You were Kept busy from Dawn to dusk. You were so tired you conformed with the Marine corp way. They also had slow learners Plt. And a Plt. for people over weight. The reason these Plts. worked was the fact you would be their as long as it took you to conform. Now I realize today they cant do that because people wouldn't stand for it. The corp would give you a medical or General Discharge. Back in my time the corp owned your butt until the day your enlistment was up. I joined the army after I got discharged from the Marine corp. I asked to go to Army Basic training to see what it was like but they wouldn't let me. In other words the Army wont raise their basic training to 12 wks. A different type of person enlists in the Marine corp than the army. I could go about many reasons. Every Marine is a Rifleman that's why the crossed rifles are on the stripes. The millenniums were raised different But I think they lack respect Semper Fi.

Response by SP5 Bob Thistle made Aug 3 at 2019 11:40 PM

2019-08-03T23:40:44-04:00

I was enlisted Army eons ago. My son is an NCO now. He was the first to tell me this is becoming a real problem which the Army is struggling to deal with now. He said for some years now, The DIs and others in training commands are severely limited in the corporal and other physical discipline that used to be part of the expected process of building discipline, pride, respect and esprit de core. Instead they switched to verbal ridicule and humiliation for discipline and it destroys what they are trying instill in the trainees, pride in themselves and their unit and respect for the command. When the boots move from basic on to their permanent duty stations there are lot of complaints from the non-coms and commanders about this exact problem - lack of discipline and respect for command. This is a very real issue and no real resolution on the map yet.

Response by SGT Robert Canady made Aug 4 at 2019 1:21 AM

2019-08-04T01:21:26-04:00

I actually did a paper on something similar to this in grad school. One of the reasons that I underlined was the change in training philosophy. The philosophy of the military training especially the army, in my opinion, has gotten soft over the years. I served 14 years in the United States army as an infantry man. During that time the standards set in place and was enforced in a different way.

It is also a result of today's upbringing and the generation. This generation has a strong lack of respect for authority as well as rules and foundations. It is unreasonable to believe that this generation who tends to disrespect their mother and father, the ones who have taken care of them their whole life, will come in the military and respect total strangers.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2019 2:19 PM

2019-08-04T14:19:52-04:00

Honestly I wouldn’t use the “army” as a whole soldier discipline has always been maintained at a nco level Iv seen soldiers with great discipline and some without any and it’s been directly related to first line supervisors and their interactions by getting comfortable with their soldiers. It’s a lifestyle that’s what the army is it is not a job it’s a life style change and people seem to want to be liked by their own soldiers which they don’t go about it the proper way and leave room for that indiscipline. If I as a Sgt ever saw my soldier not go to parade rest talking to any NCO or attention to any officer then I correct them on the spot and make sure to fix it if my soldier ever felt it was ok to tell a 1sg he isn’t better then him because if his rank then I failed somewhere but I’d be damn sure to fix it quick. My soldiers discipline and any soldier 1-4 discipline is directly related to how they are trained and taught yea you have that one soldier. Who does what he wants well that’s easy to fix process him out of the military if he can’t play by our rules

Response by SGT Lori Adams made Aug 4 at 2019 3:10 PM

2019-08-04T15:10:20-04:00

I honestly believe it’s due to lack of pride. New recruits are no longer required to spit shine boots to standard, no longer required to have a nicely pressed uniform. I was staying in an Army reserve center doing disaster response work in NE. We leave the places we stay better than it was when we arrived. That reserve center was a mess. The kitchen smelled like sewage, old grease still on the counters, floors and bathrooms were terrible. Most of us were prior military and spent our last two full days cleaning the place. The CO commented that he wished he could get his PVTs and lower enlisted to clean the place like that. We were dumbfounded and couldn’t figure out why he couldn’t make them to continue cleaning until it was done right. Sorry, drill isn’t over until it’s over. The sooner it’s clean and done to standard the sooner you go home type of thing. It would only take them once or twice before they figured it out. In my opinion it becomes lack of leadership to instill the basic discipline of our young soldiers with the lack of consequences. And in turn that creates a lack of pride in one’s self. We need to go back to the basics. Go back to being old school.

A friend joined the Air Force, did her three years and got out. Said she didn’t re-enlist because the command staff needed to realize they couldn’t treat the Airmen like they were “Old School” but needed to get with the program and start treating them like they should be treated in today’s generation. I told her that the “old school” mentality is what was going to save her ass in combat.

Response by SSG Travis Hackney made Aug 4 at 2019 5:08 PM

2019-08-04T17:08:48-04:00

Because you’re dismissing them as ‘lower enlisted’ instead of mentoring them as ‘junior enlisted’

Response by MAJ Matthew Arnold made Aug 4 at 2019 5:34 PM

2019-08-04T17:34:40-04:00

Because I've been out so long (retired in 2002), I can't really comment intelligently about army discipline now, but I can say this is not the first time and probably not the last time the army has had to and will have to go thru this cycle. During and after the Vietnam War the army had serious discipline problems including near mutiny in isolated incidents.

Response by SSG Herman Bauman made Aug 4 at 2019 7:06 PM

2019-08-04T19:06:44-04:00

When I was a Buck SGT. I had one of my Pvt's tell me I didn't have enough rank to tell him what to do. When I got thru with him, he had no doubt that I did indeed have enough rank.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2019 7:08 PM

2019-08-04T19:08:54-04:00

I believe it starts with the parents of recruits/trainees. These kids have lived a life of not getting disciplined, and back talking and the parents just let them because they’re so worried about being their friend. The kids now believe that you need to cater to them, which in turn has forced the Army’s hand into doing so. So now you literally have brats that join for either school, or just because they wanna look cool. Look at some of your soldiers profiles and see how they pose in Snapchat stories with their uniforms. It’s about image for them, but they hate being told what to do. And the army allows a PV2 to have power enough to back talk his/hers higher ups.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2019 8:49 PM

2019-08-04T20:49:13-04:00

I could ask the same of NCOs and officers who had little or no discipline at all, even in 2008 and such. You want to discriminate on a select group of the most underprivileged, overworked and intimidated group of the military, and you expect them to act as kiss-ass robot doormats for NCOs who may or may not have *earned* their rank, or officers whose only merit of holding the rank is in possessing a college degree. I find your belittlement and condescending nature typical for an officer, but also disturbing.

On another note, here in the Army, while in rare cases there are issues with a lack of genuine respect, it's far more common that we treat each other like family. Officers are our parents or big brothers/sisters, down through NCOs to the lower enlisted. The Army is a family unit. Is it truly a lack of respect, or bonding between family?

Ah, I see you're a Marine. Well there you go. Perhaps since most Marines (vast majority) come from broken or extremely dysfunctional families, you might not understand this analogy.

Nevertheless, when in war-time, we take things very seriously because our lives are on the line, and the lives of our family of soldiers and battle buddies around us are also in our hands.

The Marines are a strike force, a shock and awe surgical tool designed to batter the enemy before sending in the Army to clean house. It's more important therefore that they are always focused and rigid and "hard ass", or robotic, that they function at their maximum capacity to do the job they're required of, which is a source of constant stress and pressure, as they are typically taxi'd around the world by the Navy and sent into whatever combat scenario they're expected to do.

Fortunately, the Army is not the Marines, or else there would be a lot more suicides happening after they get out.....

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2019 11:46 PM

2019-08-04T23:46:52-04:00

I consider myself a very “squared away solider” and i have people of pretty much all ranks that will vouch but sometimes i find myself getting complacent due to the lack of not only “good leadership” but leaders that are what the NCO creed says they should be in general. I’ve whitness soldiers go from HOOAH to shit bag from Lousy leaders that don’t care about their soldiers nor their personal situations, but you do have the occasional knuckle head that was probably doomed from the beginning...

Response by SFC Charlie Broadus II made Aug 5 at 2019 10:53 AM

2019-08-05T10:53:32-04:00

1SG the Army has not catered to generational changes lack of and poor leadership has done that, disrespect should not ever be tolerated, two things a solder hates to lose is time and money AR 15 can do both

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2019 11:26 AM

2019-08-05T11:26:12-04:00

This is said countless of times through different generations, one constantly trying to out brag the one after the next. There’s nothing stopping a PV2 who doesn’t care anymore to tell their 1SG to “Shut up”, that’s not a generation thing that’s a individual thing, always has been. Senior leaders see what they want to see, they see the one soldier not going to parade rest for the 1SG, but not the group of junior enlisted who’s ready to do anything in the world their NCOs tell them to make an impression and be a great group of Soldiers. The Army is huge, you’re going to see a lot more discipline issues then you would in the Marines, nothing a good nco can fix.

Response by SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM made Aug 5 at 2019 2:58 PM

2019-08-05T14:58:43-04:00

It might be a symptom of how the culture is shifting, away from the old rigid standards!

Response by SGT Randall Smith made Aug 5 at 2019 5:05 PM

2019-08-05T17:05:46-04:00

I've been out 50 years, but what I saw then and in the jobs I have had since then have not changed. Lack of respect and discipline in the lower ranks start with lack of respect and discipline in the upper ranks, NCO and Officer. If you are a Corporal, Buck Sgt. or Staff Sgt then the E-1 through E-4's are not your buddies. By the same token, E-7's and E-8's are not your buddies. They should be your teachers to prepare you to advance to the higher level as you should be teaching the lower ranks to improve themselves. You need to remember, once upon a time you too were a Private and did the same stupid things that they are doing now. When I was promoted to Sgt I was moved out of the bay with all the Spc. 4's and to a NCO bay. I was moved from my platoon I had been in for a year and to another platoon. 3 of us were promoted the same day and the First Sgt explained to us that we were no longer "enlisted men" but NCO's and had new responsibilities. 2 months later two of us were still Sgt's and one was a Spc. 4 again. He did not want to be a Sgt and leave his buddies.
I saw the same thing in the officer's ranks. Our company CO's were usually 2nd Lts and not much past the learning stage. But Maj. Lucino the Bn XO and LTC Robert Greenberg the Bn C.O were outstanding if you needed help. They were always available to help their troops from PFC to SFC's .
Now in 14 months in Nam I never met the BN commander or his XO. I think he flew into our compound once while I was on a convoy. The BN Sgt Maj. stayed as well hidden as they did. Our company commander was a drunk. He thought nothing of coming to the NCO hooch at 2am and waking us up to drink Schlitz with him. If he went on one of our convoys he took his cooler with beer with him. He was a nice guy and a good guy but not a good officer.

Response by SPC(P) Chandler Lonergan made Aug 5 at 2019 7:01 PM

2019-08-05T19:01:59-04:00

It comes down to generations of shitty parenting. It started when Dr. Spock wrote that book about being your kid's friend. You know you are doing your job right if your child hates you once in a while. These newer generations have zero respect for anyone. You can see it the groups like ANTIFA because it makes those weak minds feel strong!

Response by SPC Jasen E. made Aug 5 at 2019 10:07 PM

2019-08-05T22:07:08-04:00

I am retired Army for 20 years now and have been dismayed and disappointed with the lack of military bearing and discipline that I see when I visit Army posts these days. Pride and discipline are just not taught anymore in basic training. The Army doesn't even teach its recruits Army history. Without this, there is no pride. No pride leads to lack of discipline. This has been going on for so long that the a lot of the NCOs in today, those that are responsible for teaching the next generation, are soldiers who also missed out on this critical education themselves. You cannot teach something that you, yourself, never learned. I'm not bagging on the Army in any way, just telling it like it is. I was taught pride and trained in discipline when I was in and that carried over into my time on active duty and even into my life afterward. We need to take a step back and return to what we know worked--hard work and discipline.

Response by CPT Daniel Cox made Aug 5 at 2019 10:47 PM

2019-08-05T22:47:02-04:00

Anecdotal information should not be used as fact in developing a White Paper on any subject. Just saying...

Response by AN Donald Miller made Aug 6 at 2019 7:35 AM

2019-08-06T07:35:23-04:00

My first thought is in general the younger generation has gegraded in itself.

Response by Pvt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 6 at 2019 2:40 PM

2019-08-06T14:40:01-04:00

reading all the responses reminds me of the six blind men of indonesia .The parable of the blind men and an elephant originated in the ancient Indian subcontinent, from where it has been widely diffused. However the meaning of the popular proverb differs in other countries. It is a story of a group of blind men, who have never come across an elephant before and who learn and conceptualize what the elephant is like by touching it. Each blind man feels a different part of the elephant's body, but only one part, such as the side or the tusk. They then describe the elephant based on their limited experience and their descriptions of the elephant are different from each other. In some versions, they come to suspect that the other person is dishonest and they come to blows. The moral of the parable is that humans have a tendency to claim absolute truth based on their limited, subjective experience as they ignore other people's limited, subjective experiences which may be equally true.
so each man was part right, but blind to the whole truth. :-) USMC 1961 1965

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 6 at 2019 5:26 PM

2019-08-06T17:26:52-04:00

In this context, are we using "Discipline" to mean "Perform their duties correctly and completely, even if nobody's looking", or are we using it to mean "Sufficiently cow tow and quake before anyone with a higher rank on their shirt"?
Actual leaders know only one of those is a definition of Discipline.
Sadly...we've all known those who aren't quite clear on which one it is.

Response by MAJ Thomas Person made Aug 6 at 2019 9:56 PM

2019-08-06T21:56:04-04:00

TOP Furr is correct. From what I have seen (besides men holding hands in uniform; I guess that's alright but don't get caught kissing a female if you are a male; there's rules about that undermining discipline) . I don't care who you plank off hours but keep the same standard. That's the crux. A lack of stressors on troops from the 1st day is probably the genesis of the problem EX: The last mission or operation I was in; in Africa. Our JSOTF had been up 36 hours to include crew time which was busted somewhere that day; nobody remembers. it was during the Rwandan disaster. We were in the field SCIF when an airman walked in from the JTF and wanted to see me as I was the JSOTF J4. I told him that I would get with him in a few (as I was busy with 5 senior NONCOMS and POs and the OPSO) and please leave the SCIF. The guard literally fell out at his seat so he walked in. The airman said he wanted to talk now and I politely told him to get the fuck out or he would be arrested by the SPs. He came back a few minutes later with a sorry assed AF provider. Our JSOTF senior enlisted was a STS type, E-8. Former 24 STS type. bad ass. The provider wanted to know who I was and he began a soliloquy of why I was "mean" to his E2 by saying "FUCK". The Ranger commo guy and Senior MSG XXXX pulled me off the couple. They never came by the JSOTF but they sent written messages. But the point is WTF is E2 "Smedley" lack of a tough skin because I said the word FUCK? BTW who is he? This was serious business and this kid wanted to see me tight then and there. WTF?

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 6 at 2019 9:58 PM

2019-08-06T21:58:31-04:00

Here is my take and it applies to all services. If you are seeing these issues know this, there is no such thing as bad units or troops, only bad leaders.

Response by SGT Mike Moschkin made Aug 7 at 2019 8:41 AM

2019-08-07T08:41:27-04:00

Is this true about all MOS-es ? I don't see how the Infantry can lack discipline and be combat functional !

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Aug 7 at 2019 9:12 AM

2019-08-07T09:12:57-04:00

Sir and not being a dick here just my observations. I have been Retired since 1996 and have overtly watched the decline of the US ARMY that I served in. My opinion if you want excellent information for your white paper. Just hang around on rally point look at questions asked, Then see the answers I have seen in one thread where you get three totally different answers too one small leadership question/situation. RP is full of these kind of examples. Soldiers saying " its just a job just like any other civilian job" and seniors both Officer and NCO'S agree with them.

Unfortunately when the Senior leadership see's it "Just as a job like any other job" That is all you have.
When you have civilians telling the Military how to run the show, what leadership is, what discipline is, What to do with a Soldier When Charged with,? My opinion once the civilians get that involved you are doomed to fail and especially when you have Seniors agreeing with the Civilians. How did this happen? Well I have my opinions how ever some times you have to decide if you want to attack that Hill at this time or not. This is one of those times that I will have to admit that Hill 429 is going to be their tomorrow.
Best information is right here on RP in the questions asked and by whom, And how they are answered and by whom. Hope this helps. Good luck with your with paper and Thank you for your service.

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Aug 7 at 2019 9:51 AM

2019-08-07T09:51:25-04:00

VOLAR was a problem, down grading was, Untrained soldiers replacing trained Solders after the down grade, auto promotions, on and on. We started injecting the Army with ill trained Officers and NCO'S at all levels. Now today well try not to let this interfere with my Civilian Job. JMT

Response by SFC Stephen P. made Aug 7 at 2019 10:07 AM

2019-08-07T10:07:40-04:00

Is it an issue of discipline, or a matter of observed customs and courtesies? Are they failing to perform their assigned tasks, or just not locking up in casual conversation?

I never felt respected because a soldier stood at parade rest and adressed me by title at the beginning and end of every sentence. Respect was when they spoke to me candidly, heeded my counsel, and when appropriate, carried out my orders.

Response by MAJ Rj M made Aug 7 at 2019 12:31 PM

2019-08-07T12:31:39-04:00

As someone who is published in the field of healthcare and statistical analysis I think your idea for a while paper is an excellent one. I would think that some societal factors are playing into it with regards to millenial culture. This is not a bad thing, but a social dynamic that is affecting all our institutions in many ways. One of the things I'd recommend you'd do is join some social media groups like TIKTOK. I did on a whim, and have seen ALOT of junior enlisted posting videos which air some interesting complaints (11Bs not training enough in the field or their MOS, other units on an FTX showing soldiers using their phones while guarding a checkpoint, and so on. I have some anecdotal information if you'd like to reach out, please do so.

Response by LTC John Wilson made Aug 7 at 2019 12:36 PM

2019-08-07T12:36:33-04:00

The concern over military discipline is a valid one. However, I have been through this with the Marines and the Army from 1961 through 1993. I was a Marine from 1961 - 1967 and an Army Green Beret from 1967 / 1994. I experianced some disrespect for those in authority. The Marines handled with Article 15’s and loss of rank. The Army gave the offender more rope to hang hisself, then lowered the hammer hard. They both had morale problems afterwards. Some came around and it was a win, some didn’t and were discharged with various discharges that fit the charges in the board or authority pressing charges.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2019 1:09 PM

2019-08-07T13:09:30-04:00

I am a Marine with 11 years active duty who has now been in the ARNG for over two and a half years. The following is my personal opinion based on observations between the two services. I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong, or that one is better than the other. I'm merely pointing out differences and a possible explanation for why it is perceived that there is an erosion of military discipline in the lower ranks of the Army.
What I have seen is the lack of an emphasis on leadership at the lower levels and the emphasis of leadership moving higher and higher up the ranks. As a SSG in the ARNG, I feel like I have the same level of responsibility for both equipment and Soldiers as I did when I was a Cpl in the Marines. In the Army, SPC's are not expected to be leaders. E-1 through E-4 are pay grades that happen to have names associated with them, whereas in the Marines, pay grades are attached to ranks. In the Army, moving up a pay grade is called an advancement; in the Marines, it's a promotion. This is an important distinction because it talks to the mindset of leadership. Why this matters is a PFC in the Marines LEADS Pvt's. Every rank outside of PVT in the Marines is responsible and held accountable for the junior Marines. In the Army, as a SSG, I am afforded a fair amount of leeway, but I feel it's primarily due to my age, experience, and prior service. When I'm at another unit where the leadership doesn't know me, I'm often lumped into the "E-6 and Below" crowd. If the Soldiers see that I'm not seen differently than them, how can we expect them to treat us differently or with respect? In the Marines, E-3 and Below are "Troops." NCO starts at Cpl. In the Army, NCO technically starts at SGT (or CPL if they are a senior E-4 selected for or in a E-5 slot), but often in the eyes of the senior enlisted and officers, E-7 is the first rank that is respected outright.
I receive respect due to my knowledge, my leadership, and in the way I carry myself. I strive to be a model to my Soldiers regarding discipline; I salute, I render appropriate greetings and courtesies to all ranks as appropriate, and I don't question orders in front of them. It is my job to uphold the standards and to remind soldiers when they are not living up to our standards. But to solely blame NCO's for the erosion of discipline is passing the buck. Our leaders need to allow SGT's and SSG's to lead, and yes, to make mistakes. Just because a SGT messes something up doesn't mean that SGT's should never be trusted again and those responsibilities handed to a SSG. Then, when the SSG makes a mistake, the buck is passed up to SFC's. When and where will it end?

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2019 2:59 PM

2019-08-07T14:59:23-04:00

17 Marines arrested for human trafficking and you don’t have this type of issue. Better wake up Captain.

Response by CPO Robert Bustamante made Aug 7 at 2019 3:12 PM

2019-08-07T15:12:07-04:00

Yes, I was a Coast Guard Chief, and I have seen the lack of discipline in the lower rates. It has much to do with the way they are raised at home (i.e., mommy or daddy's best- friend- syndrome). In addition, it has a lot to do with their generation and schools. Examples: This generation was not raised like us. They are a little lost, feeling there is no future for them. So, they want everything now. In addition, schools are very one-sided, the teachers and professors teach only one political view with no debate. I solved my problem with these kids, and it was very simple. First, they are under contract and can't quit, so they have to work for you. Next, UCMJ spells out the consequences of disrespect. Moreover, I as their boss could keep them on the job until it got done. Finally, all it took was a simple talk to bring them around--something mommy or daddy, unfortunately, did not do. One way or another, these young men and women came around with great results. I hope this help; it worked for me.

Response by SSG(P) Jeffrey Elwood made Aug 8 at 2019 5:41 PM

2019-08-08T17:41:53-04:00

They just don't make them like they used to. At Bragg we had the highest regard for authority and respected the rank, if not the man. I was told by a major that I don't have to salute the man, just the rank.

Response by SSG Eric Blue made Aug 8 at 2019 10:28 PM

2019-08-08T22:28:37-04:00

In my experience, it has a lot to do with the quality of the individuals we are selecting to serve in our military. MANY bad choices were forced onto drill sergeants and first units when I came through in the beginning. Having to backfill the servicemembers that left prior to OEF and OIF quickly without properly vetting or training our troops didn't help matters, either. Out of nearly 300 recruits who came through with me in 2000, more than 60% had criminal records. Over half of THAT population had felonies! And that's just one problem.

Response by SFC Joseph Behmke made Aug 9 at 2019 2:58 AM

2019-08-09T02:58:28-04:00

A lot of the young soldiers have been too pampered in their lives and don't like to be told what to do or not do. Everybody is equal, all get a trophy, etc... I saw this already in 2002 before I retired after 28 yrs of svc.

Response by SGT Warren Crutcher made Aug 9 at 2019 3:09 PM

2019-08-09T15:09:50-04:00

Not sure if anyone else experienced this issue but in in recent years during my second time in the Army, I served as a Platoon Sergeant for a while and when assigning daily tasks such as PMCS at the motor pool or other details that would come up, I found that a lot of soldiers would actually pull out the race card and accuse the high ups of singling out certain individuals out because of their race. I personally took offence to this as tried to assign tasks to my soldiers as I saw they could actually accomplish the mission in a timely manner with minimal supervision. When it came to discipline it was the same way. there was always that race card coming into play.

Response by SFC Oddie Brown made Aug 9 at 2019 5:26 PM

2019-08-09T17:26:46-04:00

Rank, no rank. If I ever had a little shit disrespect me I would tear him a new ass, regulations be damned. I saw NCOs get disrespected back in the 80s because they shouldn't have been an NCO in the first place. I was an E-6 and lived in the barracks with the soldiers for several tours. They knew who they could push and I wasn't one of them. When I was in my room whether it was weekend or not it was "all quiet on the western front." I wasn't the only one though. There were many NCOs I knew that wouldn't take no shit. If I were in the Army today I would probably be brought up on assault charges my first day…….but I wouldn't be disrespected.

Response by CPT Robert Boshears made Aug 11 at 2019 10:19 PM

2019-08-11T22:19:24-04:00

Having been Navy and a tour with an Amphibious (FMFPAC), they are numerically smaller than an Army unit. When on a small “warship”... you can fall over. (You don’t piss off people). Having commanded Two Army Basic Training commands and Infantry .... the size of the Army is huge. Go from a Navy/Marine command of hundreds to a Light Division of well over 10,000 and discipline can be a problem... I have personally walked men through their separations and reduced an E-6 to E-3. Also, the lower ranks tend to be just out of High School, and are initiated to alcohol.

Thank you for being honest and admit that we are one fighting force. Personally, I was a smart a__ , and had a Senior Chief and a Gunnery Sergeant “Counsel” me (in a dark passageway). Historically, the Navy and Marines fight each other... but will come together when it matters.... which will be joined by the Army too. Pride runs deep in all branches.

JO3, Buck Sgt., Captain, IN

Response by SSG Dave Johnston made Aug 12 at 2019 12:06 AM

2019-08-12T00:06:01-04:00

Many years ago, the DOD had an outside think tank inform them that they needed to become "Kinder and gentler" to their military personnel, something about military discipline and civilian discipline didn't match[thank you Dr. B. Spock] and so it began, the BCT that I'd endured in the mid '70's no longer existed. I'd been informed that "Stress Cards" were issued to new recruits so as to not harm their fragile egos(GAG me please), placing recruits in the "Front Leaning Pest Position" for extended lengths of time for individual transgressions was now unacceptable. Other tools of discipline were removed from the DI's hands and now the mess that exists, created by an outside "expert" with NOooooo real idea of the militaries need for firm discipline and the respect of rank and authority has lead to this...…… To fix it, DOD must think of returning the services induction training to that of maybe??? the 1960's....

Response by SSG Lauro Jimenez made Aug 12 at 2019 12:19 AM

2019-08-12T00:19:19-04:00

It's the unit. I was in the Infantry and a Combat Engineer and believe me, we didn't have issues like that! As an NCO , we handled business. What you are seeing are the hobbits, pogues, rear echelon units. Non combat units young Capt. I began my service in 1985, also an Army brat, dad was 30 yr MSG, Vietnam veteran, I'm an old school NCO.

Response by SPC Jasen E. made Aug 13 at 2019 10:13 PM

2019-08-13T22:13:39-04:00

I'd love to read the paper when you're done with it. Would you consider posting it here?

Response by SGT Donald Croswhite made Aug 14 at 2019 4:44 AM

2019-08-14T04:44:01-04:00

Because we can't all be infantry.

Response by LT Michael Conquest made Aug 14 at 2019 10:56 PM

2019-08-14T22:56:25-04:00

Lack of Respect, Good Order and Discipline go hand in hand with a lack of proper effective leadership. A challenge for sure in the more touchy feely stress card era of our modern military. Today's leaders more than likely have their hands tied and so the "troops" are able to get away with a lot more then perhaps during times past. Morale issues from enduring multiple deployments, entitlement running amok, political correctness, lack of proper accountability for ones actions are just some of the many issues that cause this general lack of respect and discipline you speak of. Great Post Michael. I've not spent much time on here but when I received notice of this discussion in my email I had to come check it out. BZ and All The Best with your paper!

Response by SFC Howard Holmes made Aug 19 at 2019 12:57 AM

2019-08-19T00:57:19-04:00

Sir, I believe it starts in BCT. Prior to retiring I worked in a recruiting command and I had many soldiers return saying how lax it was, and many even stated how disappointing it was due to lack of discipline and challenge. There is also the issue with retention, they feel that if they are too harsh, they will not make retention goals which then get reflected on commander OERs, and other evaluation factors. Another factor is, with retention issues in certain MOSes there are some kids getting promoted way too fast. So as younger "more hip" young NCO's they don't hold their buddies (PFCs - Spec 4's) to a standard, either because they want to be friends more than they do a leader, or they simply don't know how to lead. Lastly, the command has to support the actions of the NCO, and this includes the Platoon Sgt. and Platoon Leader. When a soldier is a discipline problem, I believe that the squad/team leader also needs to be counseled as to why his/her soldier is lacking said discipline.

Response by SrA Alan Dirk Scott made Aug 21 at 2019 12:11 AM

2019-08-21T00:11:14-04:00

As I look back, to my basic training, the biggest take away was to not do anything to get my buddies killed. This brought unit and mission cohesion. It also brought the idea of self sacrifice for others and the greater good. It was transforming.

Response by SSG Richard Brue made Aug 21 at 2019 9:23 PM

2019-08-21T21:23:25-04:00

It's because soldiers have cried so much to thier parents, and thier parents went and cried to thier congress members and that lead to NCOs getting told that we had to back off.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 26 at 2019 9:46 AM

2019-08-26T09:46:22-04:00

There are a lot of discipline issue in the Army, one that I see is soldiers walk past infractions all the time some of this me be they are scared to say anything or they too do not know the reg. I also see people referring to pay grades and not ranks. As leaders we have to enforce these standards, the Army makes it easy there is a manual for everything.

Response by MAJ Mark Steskal made Sep 3 at 2019 12:50 PM

2019-09-03T12:50:38-04:00

I was stationed at a Naval Hospital as a junior enlisted in the 70;s and knew sailors who would avoid certain walkways to reduce required saluting (and junior officers who would frequent certain routes to garner respect). In the early 80's as a Marine Artillery Officer when the Regiment was shooting at Ft. Bragg, I went with a couple of other LT's to clothing sales. We were not saluted by numerous SPC's and below despite being obviously commissioned (USMC wore shiny bars on lapels). In the 90's + in the Army, it would depend on where I was regarding respect of rank.
I think that it is about Command Climate. In the Mariines the respect of rank comes all the way down the ladder by culture. In the Army I think that although it is cultural priority, it tends to be more locally enforced by command and Staff NCO's. I believe the expectations are lowered from the beginning when it is more a question of numbers rather than quality.
On the other hand, in the elite units I have been associated or familiarized with in the Army (e.g. SF, Rangers, etc.), while the trappings of respect are less obvious, the cultural exhibitions are there (at least within the organizations; somewhat less for an outsider).

Response by SFC David McAfee made Sep 5 at 2019 7:17 PM

2019-09-05T19:17:34-04:00

I'm concerned that changes in discipline may be the influence of both politics and PC Issues. Having served and currently my son serving the differences in discipline are blatantly apparent. I don't know the answer yet I'd tend to question if it were an issue of both society and potential repercussions on leadership, at every level, if PC concerns are the destructively stifling.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2019 3:41 PM

2019-09-07T15:41:14-04:00

Inability to uphold the standard. Or just a blatant disregard for it.

Response by PO1 Frank Downs made Oct 7 at 2019 4:56 AM

2019-10-07T04:56:02-04:00

It’s not just the Army the Navy and Air Force has the same problems.
The problem stems from a lack of leadership from above and enforcement of PC policies, If a junior has a conflict with a senior all he has to do is accuse the senior of sexual misconduct and the senior reputation is destroyed (guilty until proven innocence).

Response by CPT Ronald Scherick made Oct 8 at 2019 8:00 AM

2019-10-08T08:00:35-04:00

This problem is not unique to the army it is rampant in all parts of society. The liberal brainwashing of our youth has come home to roost the standards have been lowered across the board. everyone gets a participation trophy and no one can be disciplined for anything. We cant hurt feelings by giving grades in school or keeping score in sport events. This society in general is seing the bad effects of this in every phase of life. In schools the kids disrespect the teachers and even physically attack them. It was shown in Florida the sheriff was told by the politicians not to arrest kids on high schools because they wanted to try to show a reduction in crime rates under thier leadership. well the result was the parkland shooting where the shooter had double digit police complaints against him but never charged on any . But they were quick to blame guns for the problem. In New York city this summer the police had water and buckets thrown on them and were afraid to make arrests because the liberal mayor would not stand up for them and feared they would lose their jobs. In Washington state the radical Antifia wear masks while they protest and destroy property and attack conservative reporters who try to show their violent unlawful ways and they are defended by the liberal mayors and the police are told to stand down and let them brake the law because they are on the side of the party in power. The sanctuary state and city people demonize ice and do not allow the police to help them which makes it unsafe for everyone. Liberal colleges do not allow conservative speakers on campus and allow violent protests against them and the police stand by and watch letting the damage and injury's go unchecked. I can site many more examples. The really sad part is the main street media is run by them so you never hear of most of these problems . I believe this is part of the problem that allowed us to get to this braking point.

Response by SGT Russell Chewning made Oct 8 at 2019 4:11 PM

2019-10-08T16:11:17-04:00

Personally, I think it's do with American society moving away from being unquestioning of authority. Young people see politicians on both sides acting like complete and utter fools, and as such, are maybe a little less likely to buy the whole indoctrination spiel the Army lays on them in the early days.
They see a few wars, and absolutely nothing to show for them, except a few very rich white men, and a bunch of nutty conspiracy theories. Why should they have any confidence in their leaders? It's not like their leaders are proving themselves capable in any way, shape, or form.

Add to that, the sheer stupid lengths that many military leaders will go to in order to exercise authority. Case in point? Another discussion that has me all kinds of twisted, where a female is told by her Platoon Sergeant through her squad leader that she needs to wear a bra when OFF DUTY. And the vast majority of responding officers and NCOs in full support of the leader. This. THIS is one of the major reasons I could see lower enlisted joining the Army, and coming to the realization that they might just be surrounded by fools.

Now.. I am not saying the officers and NCOs ARE fools. Just indoctrinated into a HOOOOORAHHHHHHH!!-type mentality that just doesn't play with an entire generation of enlistees who are seeing America fall apart around them.

Response by Robert Sissons made Oct 8 at 2019 9:25 PM

2019-10-08T21:25:07-04:00

Once standards were lowered to allow women in the military the standards could only go down

Response by Sgt Jude Eschete made Oct 9 at 2019 7:55 AM

2019-10-09T07:55:09-04:00

I apologize for the length of this and if it seems to jump around a lot. I haven't slept and I have class in a few hours.

I will say that this issue is not solely limited to the Army. After I got back from my deployment, almost all of my shop had turned over and it was almost completely new Marines. Before I got out I was made the platoon sergeant for my shop and I noticed a prevalent trend amongst the younger Marines. They were a lot faster to make accusations of hazing or that you are targeting them if you attempt to discipline them in any way, shape, or form. If they gave attitude and the next day for PT you ran a particularly rough session, it was "hazing", as was making them stay past 1700 for inventory. The issue that I had was that the SNCOS would go to the defense of the junior Marines, rather than backing the NCOs to enforce discipline. I don't know what happened while I was gone, but when I was a Junior Marine, I would have *NEVER* mouthed off to an NCO, they didn't do it to me so much as they did it to my Corporals.

This inconsistency and crumbling of the chain of command created even more problems, it got bad enough at one point that the company 1stSgt had to have a separate sitdown with the Junior Marines, the NCOs, and the SNCOs (SSgts and GySgt), and basically told the Juniors that not everything under the sun was hazing, and told the SNCOs to allow the NCOs to do their job and stop letting the Junior Marines jump the chain of command.

One thing that I found worked was that instead of any sort of traditional verbal adjustments, or extra work, I was having to rely on formal counselings more, and also a bit of extra scrutiny on field day. This allowed me to keep a signed paper trail on any misconduct, and it covered my ass if any accusations were made towards me. After the talk with the 1stSgt, I also made it a point to pull up the UCMJ and outline many of the articles that they could be charged with if their behavior did not change.

I also made it a point to never be in a counseling one on one with a female junior Marine, I always made it a point to grab one of the female Sergeants to act as a witness. I think in the 2 years that I was an NCO, I only had to raise my voice twice, so that they knew that If I was at that point, things were going to be very bad for them very fast.

It's a changing Corps and leadership needs to stop trying to be friends with the Juniors and start being leaders again.

Response by MSgt James "Buck" Buchanan made Oct 11 at 2019 11:08 AM

2019-10-11T11:08:14-04:00

IMHO, a large part of the overall discipline problem in society as well as the military today can be traced back to the decision to remove prayer from schools. Growing up in that era I was able to observe kids who did not attend regular church services have an awareness of personal accountability. That accountability has largely gone away as the result of Dr. Spock has been the loosening of discipline in both the home and schools. Between Dr. Spock and the loss of prayer in schools there was a loss of the moral compass, having a better understanding of right and wrong, and thus respect for others has lowered...especially those in authority positions. As I remember, a few years ago AF basic trainees were given some sort of "timeout" system that allowed them to avoid being yelled at and actually punished. The discipline problem in the military is due to the lack of discipline outside and now trying to instill a foreign concept into minds that don't want to accept it. My rant, sorry.

Response by SPC Travis McGaha made Oct 11 at 2019 2:58 PM

2019-10-11T14:58:50-04:00

In 1985, the US Army in its infinite wisdom chose to eliminate Sp5 and Sp6 ranks, thereby thrusting thousands of people into positions of "rank" and "authority" that they were neither mentally capable of handling by natural ability nor mentally prepared for handling by military training. These were not bad people, they were skilled workers who were extremely capable of performing their MOS. I served in the mid to late 80's and early 90's and watching some these people, cry out, "I'm a sergeant, I work for a living..." only to follow up with "I don't work for a living, I get paid to supervise only." You would quickly lose respect for these types of half-wits. I firmly believed that everyone in the Army deserved every penny possible, but not everyone should have been a leader whether the driver was a commissioned officer or a non-commissioned officer (NCOs). Officers were rare and NCOs should have been a rarity in any unit. The Army had too many chiefs and not enough Indians. To make matters worse, Promotions points stayed at 999 for many MOSs, stagnant NCOs would take up a secondary MOSs in an effort to get their next rank. So many would come into our unit (tractor-trailer unit in central Germany) absolutely skilless, and put people in danger through acts of wrecklessness, but at least they could puff up their chest and say, "I'm a sergeant, I'm a leader of MEN..." as if that excused their incompetence. These types of things led to many discipline problems that have continued to this day.

Response by SFC Brian Gillum made Oct 13 at 2019 10:54 AM

2019-10-13T10:54:22-04:00

More senior enlisted and the vast majority of junior officers are from the same generation as the enlisted. Sure, in the case of the NCOs they been in for a while but, seeing as how they know and understand the nuances of the what and why for these new soldier’s are less likely to use disciplinary techniques that instill the military bearing, etiquette and discipline of old.

Sadly, this can only get worse before it can get better.

Response by SFC Ernest Thurston made Oct 19 at 2019 4:53 PM

2019-10-19T16:53:32-04:00

It's because of civilian politicians constantly using the Army as their favorite place to do social experimentation. The Army, to its credit, was the first to racially integrate. I believe they are also the first to open most MOSs to females. After that, it seems that it seems like discipline degraded because you couldn't say certain things because it hurts someone's feelings or violated their civil rights. I remember having the race card thrown at me several times when I was just doing normal discipline without regard to a person's color. I remember when we were told we could not use certain cadence calls will marching troops if they had profanity or were sexist. Every cadence that I learned as a private fell into that category. When I became a Drill Sergeant we were told that the new policy required cadences that were gender-neutral, not sexist, not violent and not profane. No more "Yellow Bird" or "I saw an old lady" or "I wish all the ladies" Then we had a Brigade Commander that would get on the bus with the new recruits coming from the Reception station, just to catch us verbally abusing the new troops. We also couldn't rush them through chow like they did when I was a recruit. Some of the new requirements made a little sense, but most of it tied our hands on the discipline level and the troops knew it. Today's society has brought this into the Army. Kids that smart off at their parents and teachers and are not afraid of the consequences and come into the Army with the same attitude make it really hard to instill a respect for authority. They are really quick to yell I'm going to the IG because you hurt my feelings. It all goes to crap from there.

Response by SPC Christopher Murano made Oct 20 at 2019 7:15 PM

2019-10-20T19:15:56-04:00

I'm not sure if this is a "military" problem. I see it as a generational problem. People are growing up with the idea that they are always right and no one has the right to tell them otherwise. They have lost the concept of working for something. They expect it to be handed to them because they "deserve" it. This carries over into the military. When they join, they come with the attitude "just because you're a First doesn't give you the right to tell me what to do.". Society has to change first, then everything will follow. And yes, as you can probably tell from my response, I've been out a while (Oct '71).

Response by PO2 Michael Barron made Nov 13 at 2019 7:39 PM

2019-11-13T19:39:08-05:00

A cultural change from discipline to political correctness has eroded respect for military tradition in some branches. Marines will not tolerate such. That is why they can do more with less. Unquestioned authority engenders obedience and effective command.

Response by CPL Theodore Moore made Nov 16 at 2019 12:22 AM

2019-11-16T00:22:46-05:00

I have been out of the army since 1994. I was in the navy from 1997-2000. So, I don't have recent direct contact with the military. But, it is my experience that young people are the same as they ever were. My generation which invented HIPPIES for GOD'S sakes HIPPIES! were the worst generation ever.

Response by MSgt Janice Trojan made Nov 18 at 2019 11:17 PM

2019-11-18T23:17:43-05:00

Well I was Air Force and Army used to be "really" rank conscious. I got out in 2008. I appreciate structure and I always appreciated being enlisted! NO BASHING, just saying I could talk to an officer easier. That said. I hear that there maybe a "pack mentality" with millennial's hope that is not the case. When I was in it was everyone for themselves.(sounds bad but good) I never thought to gather others and work against our leader or just someone of higher rank. I was busy keeping my shit together :)

Response by SSG Richard Brue made Nov 21 at 2019 5:09 AM

2019-11-21T05:09:52-05:00

NCO's need to start putting foot to asses. That's one thing I never tolerated, disrespect.

Response by LTC Ray B. (Ret) made Nov 24 at 2019 10:13 PM

2019-11-24T22:13:55-05:00

When you have a LTC deciding whether or not their commander in chief is engaged in an inappropriate phone conversation with another worlds leader then you have a fucking problem. That is how Stalin ran Russia and his military.

Response by Gary Davis made Nov 27 at 2019 10:39 AM

2019-11-27T10:39:08-05:00

This raises the question, is this lack of discipline and increase in discipline issues reflect the society as a whole? I am curious if this problem is common with other civilizations as they declined. It would be very interesting to see if there are any original accounts from the Roman legions, the Spartans, or other legendary fighting forces documenting a similar issues as the society declined.

Response by SPC John Coleman made Nov 28 at 2019 5:07 AM

2019-11-28T05:07:51-05:00

Millennials rule and there’s no discipline anymore in today’s army I’m old-school infantry guy and I still know guys that was in the service with that say today’s army is definitely not the army in so deal with it

Response by MSgt Eric Roseberry made Dec 2 at 2019 6:53 AM

2019-12-02T06:53:35-05:00

My son served as a medic with the Army. My second hand observation seemed to demonstrate a lack of jr NCO leadership. Specialists with a clear lack of leadership skill were prevalent.
My Son, contributed to the issue. He joined somewhat older than average, 20ish, and resented kids as leaders.
Post Deployment, time, and promotion improved the situation but the Army lost a good soldier after 1 term.

Response by CWO3 Warren Gaudreau made Dec 9 at 2019 2:24 PM

2019-12-09T14:24:59-05:00

It all starts at home. If these children didn't learn to discipline themselves with parental guidance, this is going to show rather rapidly. There are those who can adjust to military expectations and those who will not. They need to be culled a.s.a.p.

Response by Capt Hale Meserow made Dec 16 at 2019 3:00 PM

2019-12-16T15:00:35-05:00

The problem is the general lack of character among young people these days. I was raised with the Judeo-Christian ethic in place. We respected teachers, cops, pastors, and soldiers. We knew our duty was to serve our country. Now, after two generations of lazy, undisciplined parents and socialist teachers, young people have no such ideals. Situational reality, me-first-and-always attitudes, and "America ain't so great" indoctrination are often the core principles of today's youth (up to age 35 or so). The solution is not simple. President Trump, despite his personal character flaws, is leading the way to a restoration of the values our Founding Fathers put in place. Diligence, rigid consistency in enforcement of standards, and a strategy of building pride in unit and nation are appropriate means to return discipline to the military.

Response by SSgt William Blanshan made Dec 18 at 2019 11:21 PM

2019-12-18T23:21:01-05:00

It's a question of training. The training that the liberal P{residents like Bill Clinton instituted is causing all sorts of troubles. From discipline in the lower ranks to depression, PTSD and suicide in returning servicemen.
when my father went through basic in 1942, a Drill Instructor could beat the stuffing out of you. When I went through basic in 1981, the Drill Instructors couldn't lay a hand on you but could scream obscenities in your face and tap you with the leading edge of their hat (I have a permanent crease across my forehead, lol). Now they can't even yell at a raw recruit because it causes "stress". STRESS?!? I've also been hearing about something that's called "stress cards" being handed out to recruits in basic, but haven't gotten around to finding out if it's true or not. I hope not. We're doomed as it is, what with substandard training and a President who pulls us "out of harms way" because he doesn't want us getting hurt.

Response by CMSgt Marshall Ray made Dec 27 at 2019 12:45 AM

2019-12-27T00:45:19-05:00

It's not the lower ranking service members who are the problem it's the lack of leadership.

Response by SPC Dean J. Thompson made Dec 27 at 2019 10:10 AM

2019-12-27T10:10:53-05:00

Catering to the New generation of military is a big mistake.
Starting with basic and advanced training discipline and respect for rank need to be maintained. Leaders need to not be afraid to put their subordinates inline when someone breaks the rules or shows disrespect to their leadership.
I am going to put this issue on the shoulders of leadership. Stop treating your troops as equals. You are the leader so lead.

Response by PO2 George Cicotte made Dec 30 at 2019 11:25 AM

2019-12-30T11:25:35-05:00

Because the Army* appears to have a discipline issue at the highest officer ranks.
*Sadly, not limited to Army, as made clear by the former SecNav and current leakers.
DISCLAIMER: My youngest son is the first officer in the family since the Civil War, so I'm a bit biased.

Response by AN Donald Miller made Dec 30 at 2019 12:19 PM

2019-12-30T12:19:29-05:00

Out could be due to the fact that each generation is degrading when it comes to certain values. Also could be an issue with recruitment standards. On college I learned about the labor pool, you can only hire what's available. Good luck with your paper.

Response by PO1 Michael Bruner made Jan 3 at 2020 12:51 PM

2020-01-03T12:51:51-05:00

It's generational. I saw the same thing happening in the Navy during the 90s and the 00s. Nothing like getting your a$$ reamed in front of a 3rd Class by your Chief for directing that petty officer to lead by example.

Response by PV2 Glen Lewis made Jan 4 at 2020 9:13 PM

2020-01-04T21:13:53-05:00

I think it's partly caused by too much political correctness as well as a general feeling nowadays of no one has the right to tell me what to do or say. I'd say that would comes with lax rules and policies that have been put into affect to cow-tow to groups who feel they deserve special treatment because of race, creed, and color. The day when you saw uniformity in the Armed Forces is gone and it's not just in the Army.

Response by CPL Henry Miller made Jan 5 at 2020 5:51 PM

2020-01-05T17:51:57-05:00

Best experience of my life, other than 5 children, 8 grands, 3 great grands. Draft driven military between Korea and Viet Nam. Airborne Combat Engineers part of soon to leave 11th Airborne, 2 years 24th Infantry. Top cadre WW2 and Korea vets. First Sgt jumped into Normandy, did Bastogne, jumped in north Korea. First issue of Military Code of Conduct. 12 - 15 years since WW2 Many family, friends, community combat vets. Numerous Gold Stars in small home town. Active VFW till they all died off.

You just did NOT give no shit to any NCO. First Sarge let it be known it was "HIS" Company. If you disagreed, he'd discuss it with you behind the motor pool at 6:00. I would have followed him anywhere.

I've seen discipline falter in my own family and society. In some ways I agree but there has to be a limit. When was the last time "We the People" had to make a sacrifice for the good of us all? Less than 5% have had military experience. Bring back the draft ! Or something similar.

Response by MSG Allan Davis made Jan 6 at 2020 1:03 AM

2020-01-06T01:03:25-05:00

The answer is simple; the Army promotes bad behavior, those under those being promoted learn by example. Mix in the lazy DOD civilians that can’t be fired and it’s a mix of nasty soup.

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Jan 19 at 2020 12:18 PM

2020-01-19T12:18:54-05:00

BASH ME if you want but I see it as a failure in the early 90's when the big draw down happened and had to rely on other resources to Maintain a fighting force. JMTC

Response by Cpl Jeff Ruffing made Jan 25 at 2020 4:17 AM

2020-01-25T04:17:40-05:00

Ok, Having experience in 3 different military organizations I feel I can answer your question based on my humble opinion and experiences. I was a Marine from 80 to 86, then in the Army from 86 to 92. I went from being a 0341 to a 52D. It seemed that the command, (E-5 and above) were more of friend, listen to you, try to please you, give you chance after chance. I saw behavior in the Army that would have had heads on the platter if they were Marines. Again, not ALL of the Army was that way. The combat arms segment were much hard core, but, from my experience the non combat arms were more in the touchy feel good sense. I believe, in my humble opinion, from what I experienced was a “ familiarity breeds contempt “ atmosphere. I never went out with my NCOs drinking with them, nor my officers. There was also the female issue. In the Corp, not so much interaction with WMs as I was interacting with female soldiers more often. So, there seemed to be a softer side. Again, I was in a non combat arms atmosphere, so it was different. Hope that helps

Response by Lt Col John Culley made Jan 27 at 2020 3:05 PM

2020-01-27T15:05:50-05:00

The Army has a morale problem because it keeps losing counterinsurgency wars as noted by Army Lt. General Daniel P. Bolger in his 2014 book entitled Why We Lost: A General's inside account of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Luckily in the Cold War the Soviets nuked themselves at Chernobyl so the Army can claim that as a win even though they went up against an opponent who was monumentally stupid.

Response by CH (CPT) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2020 8:10 PM

2020-02-01T20:10:22-05:00

As a chaplain, I am somewhat in a different situation. Most soldiers, regardless of religion or faith, usually treat the chaplain with the upmost of respect and military bearing. With that said, as a Battalion Chaplain, interacting with the various companies of my battalion, I have witnessed numerous occasions where lower enlisted, E1-E4 SPC, lacked military bearing with NCO's and even lower commissioned officer ranks. I have witnessed time and again where an E2 will come up to our 1SG to speak with him and never think to stand at parade rest. But what's interesting is I find that to be true of soldiers who have been out of the BCT/AIT environment for some time. On the other hand, I have found new soldiers who have just come to us from AIT to still be in that mindset, and will stand at Parade Rest with our NCO's or at attention with me until I put then at ease. And lastly, once an E4 (successfully) comes back from BLC, they seem to get their military bearing back. The two cents' worth from a "dirty boots chaplain" who spends a great deal of time with the Joe's...

Response by Sgt Michael Hearne made Feb 9 at 2020 3:47 AM

2020-02-09T03:47:28-05:00

As a brother "Gyrene" my observation of the Army today there appears to be more emphasis on the "Social Justice" equality of the our "liberal" civilian population. There appears to less family "cohesion" and less "religious" foundation in today's youth. In the past; most of our military had "Southern" roots with a religious foundation and a greater respect for authority. Since the "Sixties" the American youth has continued with the tendency to question and challenge authority figures. The Marine Corps has a longer period of time in "basic training or boot camp" which in turn instills greater respect for military discipline and authority.

Response by SGT Mark Daughenbaugh made Feb 10 at 2020 6:53 AM

2020-02-10T06:53:32-05:00

CPT Wilford, I am willing to bet that neither post was Fort Bragg. I visited Bragg once - stopped a very senior SP4 (I was an E-5 SGT),to ask a question, he went to parade rest, shouted his unit motto and answered my request. I was one of those Army linguist made E-5 in 2 years (and stayed E-5 until I got out 6 years later). Different posts, different commands and different focus on Military Courtesy and discipline.

Response by SSG Jason Stoner made Feb 11 at 2020 7:00 AM

2020-02-11T07:00:18-05:00

This is the exact reason I retired. I would have my Soldiers do the job the Army trained them to do in my PLT. Had on several occasions been told NO. When I conducted counseling and remedial action, I would get into trouble with the 1SG for doing my job the Army trained and expected of me in my title. I love the Army and do not regret anything. They need to stop catering to the "I am here, give me my trophy" generation and crack down on these undisciplined brats.

Response by SFC Sean Funkhouser made Feb 13 at 2020 7:36 PM

2020-02-13T19:36:23-05:00

I agree whole heartedly. The military has standards in black and white that should be upheld. It’s easy to get back too but people are scared and don’t defend themselves withe policies, procedure and regulations.

Response by HA Dennis LaDow made Feb 17 at 2020 7:04 PM

2020-02-17T19:04:14-05:00

They get feed this left-wing liberal BS education all though school life and they think they can bring it with them when they inter the military, and they are shocked to find out it doesn't work in the military, so now they go around pissed because they can't have it their way and the military way.

Response by SGT Larry Green made Feb 19 at 2020 5:21 AM

2020-02-19T05:21:39-05:00

the younger generation have the problem,(in their defense,there has been a big mistake in their (upbringing))

Response by SPC John Tacetta made Feb 20 at 2020 5:53 PM

2020-02-20T17:53:28-05:00

I'm a bit old school and may be out of touch, but I'd bet you were not around any STRAC units. If you're writing a paper on military discipline I suggest you spend some time around the combat brigades. During my time and in my units insubordination meant a quick trip to the brig!

Response by SGT Mark Hasch made Feb 27 at 2020 9:17 PM

2020-02-27T21:17:13-05:00

I would say it's because of the E-4 mafia!!! Dude they control everything, seriously, it would be like pissing off your waitress who can cough up a slimy greener and spit it in your food just before bringing it out to you!!! This is why no one messes with them!!! That and they did away with "corporal punishment!!!/:0)", or for not allowing old school punishments by their next in command!!!

Response by CWO3 Bryan Luciani made Feb 28 at 2020 5:02 PM

2020-02-28T17:02:08-05:00

After my career I raised two sons that are currently serving. One is in the Army and after boot camp he came home and told me that he had never seen so much UN-checked disrespect in his life. He said the Army NCOs seem to not care at all when disrespected to their faces. I think it's a safe bet to assume that is the main problem. Zero discipline from day 1.

Response by MSG Roberto Alomar made Mar 2 at 2020 7:50 PM

2020-03-02T19:50:16-05:00

1SG (R)
A SMA told me once, not to blame the Army for the lack of discipline or respect. The Army is an institution. The problem are the NCOs that lack the courage to correct or kick someone out if they don't make the cut

Response by MSG Roberto Alomar made Mar 2 at 2020 7:59 PM

2020-03-02T19:59:36-05:00

A SMA friend of mine told me once, discipline and respect is not the fault of the Army...The Army is an institution. The fault is solely of the lack of courage and pride of the new NCO's and Officers that believe they are in charge. Corrected them if they fuckup or become disrespectful,l counsel them and send their butt home. it only takes two counseling's to send someone home. it does not take an ART 15 to take rank away from an E2,E3, or E4. the Commander promoted them with a 4187 so the same form can reduce their ass. been there done that many times when I was a 1SG. once you get your point across people start acting right or go home.

Response by 1SG Wayne Cannon made Mar 6 at 2020 1:18 PM

2020-03-06T13:18:18-05:00

When i first joined the US Army being a Vietnam Era Veteran i had those combat harden veterans that if you didn't follow the regulations you wear punished. Didn't need the UCMJ. your squad leaders could give you extra training. I turned over many rocks so they wouldn't get moon burnt. Then those types started to ETS. And then regulations started to change, you couldn't do this or that. And privates started to learn that. The same time our things outside started to weakin up. Like when our teachers could discipline their students. Same in the Army. One little thing they would run to the IG.
I had been in for about 12, 13 years i made E-7. Only one E-7 in the company under me so i wasn't the Jr. One had 2 Master Sgt. And a total of 7, E-7s large maintenance company. We had a Change of Command. Our 1SG only had 11days left and he was out. The new COMMANDER said he needed a new 1SG,in a meeting he was holding for all the NCOs. And thats when i really got the concept of ROAD. for those that don't know what that means. Retired on active duty. I raised my hand and became the new 1SG of that unit. And had a CSM that told all of them that they better follow my instructions. It wasn't easy but when your lower enlisted sees things like that it's not good. Plus the other branches had a policy that the Army didn't once and enlisted made Sergeant. They should be transferred. To many still buddies. They can't make the change. Plus the officers coming in are taught. Do not trust your NCOs. Those are just some of the problems. We could sit here all day.

Response by CPL Sarah Stilwell made Mar 9 at 2020 10:52 AM

2020-03-09T10:52:37-04:00

The Marines do have this issue. In fact its not uncommon for a a person to enlist into the Army after being thrown out of the Marines and bringing those same discipline issue to the Army. Its not a generational issue, its the fact that laws and regulations have changed. When I was a private in 2004 my drill sergeant was kicked out of boot camp for recruit abuse and trust me the level of hazing that had to take place for that to happen in 2004... you had to be on the verge of killing someone to loose your drill sergeant patch - but he managed to loose it without killing anyone, just sending about a dozen to the hospital with broken bones. That's why they created new laws, to prevent this from taking place and allowing low ranking troops to collect tens of thousands of dollars over their lifetime for being injured on the job via hazing. So once the hazing was cracked down on, their wasn't really anything the higher ups could do to 'discipline' (aka abuse the living shit) out of the junior enlisted, leaving the higher ups unable to function because hazing a junior was their only method of communication. True problem soldiers do exist, but they are fewer of them then others would let on to believe. Nobody likes to talk about the undisciplined officers or the clinically obese SFC. The poor management of good soldiers by higher ups is far more widespread and enough to drive anyone insane.

Response by CPL Sarah Stilwell made Mar 9 at 2020 11:13 AM

2020-03-09T11:13:58-04:00

Because those lower enlisted ranks were former NCOs who got knocked down to E1? Lol sorry couldnt help but mention it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2020 9:23 AM

2020-03-19T09:23:39-04:00

A lot of what you are likely se is the result of more than one thing. Promotions that occurred to fast due to former War time. Second some due to lower ranks having seen more combat than their superiors. For example before I retired my Battalion had a MSG who never deployed. We also had Specialist E-4s who had seem multiple deployments. It was difficult for the E-4s to accept that MSG, who never deployed, telling them what they should do to prepare for possible Combat.

Response by SPC Jorge (George) Font made Mar 20 at 2020 8:19 PM

2020-03-20T20:19:15-04:00

People, I am steel pot, M14, Vietnam, RA, regular Army Veteran. I joined when I was 17 years old and I am proud to have served. It was drilled into me in my basic training! It showed when I walked, it showed when we marched. I once spoke to a Vietnam Marine Vet and I told him how well they showed their pride when they marched ad how sorry our current Army troops march in their basic training graduation. They look like they are going on a school Outing. He told me something which I will share with you all and I hope the General Staff will hear and listen. The Marines have Pride Drilled into them from basic on , Siemper Fidelis! These guys were so proud they would not let us, Army, help them when they got into trouble. Ha! But we always did, they are American who happen to be Marines. My drill Sergeant drilled into us the Pride of being a Solder and the Honor of defensing our nation. Even when being a Solder was looked down on. WE SERVE WITH PRIDE and HONOR, what happen to our leaders? All the General that retired and served the president are in Jail? Where is the honor the pride??? Where is the Leadership?? Yet they like to be called General...? It starts at the TOP. We lost Viet Nam because of a General. 58,208 guys can testify to that. We won in Kawai because of a General that had what is takes. may he rest in peace. Its going to take a General with honor and pride to correct whats happening and get us all back in step so when we see the Marines or Army march we can say they show they have pride in who they are and give honor to our country. Siemper Fidelis, it was an honor to have served in country with these men. I hope one day they will say the same about us.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2020 9:11 PM

2020-03-21T21:11:22-04:00

Because they took disciplinary actions away from the Drill Sergeants and that started taking in any E5 or E6 just to fill in gaps. No matter if they weren't worth the stripes they wore or not. Oh, let's not forget that there is only 20 % of E5s and E6s who has a take charge attitude and want to lead, the other 80% care about themselves, has no discipline and do not care about structure because they were trained or lack there of by stripe wearers who wasn't developed enough to lead a pack of paper towels .

Response by TSgt John Burres made Mar 22 at 2020 11:29 PM

2020-03-22T23:29:54-04:00

Perhaps it's because of the younger generation of "snowflakes" available for recruitment these days. Our society in the whole has lost our way in training our youth to take over positions of responsibility and morality in these last two generations. The blame really lies mostly with bad parenting and lack of moral and family structure I think.

Response by Sgt Michael Clifford made Apr 6 at 2020 9:54 AM

2020-04-06T09:54:21-04:00

I think that this may be something that happens in a somewhat cyclical manner. Immediately after WW2 there were a number of NCO's and junior officers who recieved battlefield promotions based on their combat exploits and bravery rather than their potential for leadership. The result was supervisors who were good soldiers but not good leaders. There were many cases of inappropriate discipline and the use of authority by these individuals. The congress then passed laws withdrawing the authority of staff NCO's to discipline their troops. That resulted in an even greater breakdown of discipline at the opening of the Korean war.

It happened again at the end of the Vietnam war. Availability of drugs, civil disobedience, loss of respect from anti-military protesters and again a reduction in the authority of NCOs.

Recruits must be made to understand from their first minutes in boot camp that the military is not a democracy. Lawful orders will be obeyed and if they are not there will be consequences regardless of whether they come from a corporal, a lieutenant or a colonel. This must be backed up by the chain of command. All supervisors must be well trained and supervised by their superiors (not Monday morning quarterbacked) all the way up the chain.

Good luck.

Response by 1LT Mike Thompson made Apr 12 at 2020 10:37 AM

2020-04-12T10:37:25-04:00

I definitely see it as multifactorial, sir. People love generalities, but I’m sure your white paper will inform you that the trend is not actually a trend in any one area. As I am sure you are aware, units strive to avoid public awareness of disciplinary issues by “handling it at the lowest level” and those reports rarely go up the chain. So I suspect the actual problem is much worse than we ever realize. However, that being said, my experience tells me the right early intervention in leadership makes most of the difference. As a drill sergeant I frequently encountered soldiers that arrived with a multitude of factors impacting their ability to train effectively. Some were overly motivated and didn’t know how to temper that while others were told they were garbage their entire lives and had zero self-confidence. We decry changing with the times, but we must meet these soldiers where they are as they come in and overcome those barriers to achieve the proper training outcomes. Once that is accomplished we up the ante until they meet standards. It’s an extremely difficult job and we often run BCT with half manpower further allowing for some to slip through the cracks. I can attest firmly to the fact that someone with low self esteem or low self confidence is easily led astray. We say break them down and build them up, but some of them show up broken. I am currently AGR for a state (switched to ANRG last year) as a recruiter. I can tell you anyone can snow us by being motivated for a few months. Just send a kid I’d have staked my hat on to 11B OSUT in February. He can home last week a quitter. Unfortunately what I’m seeing and hearing based on garbage packets I’d have never let go by as a Senior DS and the soldiers flat lack of knowledge as graduates is their DSs were junk. We need to start by holding the Drill Sergeant Academy accountable for the DSs they produce. Most I’ve worked with were actually the cream of the crop. However, I’ve still worked with many that should’ve never made the cut to go let alone graduated. They infect those young soldiers from the start. If the DSA was held accountable there would certainly be a higher standard of vetting performance. We also need to gauge actual leadership and training ability in that school instead of just memorizing modules and taking a test on trainee treatment standards. People think DS school is difficult, but it’s only challenging for weak NCOs. If they were truly the top 10% of their MOS, they’d all be bored like most I know. The curriculum is and has been a joke. I went in 2010 when it was a lot of written tests, nothing tactical, and a basic shooting course with combatives. Most of what I learned when I went was PRT because it was brand new. The academy should have higher standards all around and though I know we need Drills (ran several cycles solo myself), I could always do more with another competent senior than I could with a full staff of weak NCOs wearing funny hats. Improve the DS Corp (before they graduate the academy not after) and you fix the entire problem in one generation.

Response by SGM Aj Johnson made Apr 12 at 2020 11:40 AM

2020-04-12T11:40:50-04:00

CPT, your talking apples, oranges and the truth. The Marines do a great job of instilling traditions and implanting the thought that every Marine is a capable infantrymen. The truth is it takes months of training and actual experience to be a good infantrymen, the warrior, the heart and soul of the military. Serve with the top line units in the Army and you will see something more important than discipline, you will see professional soldiers capable of doing their jobs on a moments notice and I would say that about any branch. Look at the Air Force, whenever I had to deal with them they were always so laid back, but could they get job done in a professional manner, hell yea. I would be more concerned about your units first time servers reenlistment rate, rather than worry about other services discipline issues, cause that will tell you a lot about how your people truly view your services discipline.

Response by 1SG Patrick Sims made Apr 13 at 2020 12:01 PM

2020-04-13T12:01:03-04:00

There is little interaction in the Marine Corps between various ranks. The Army's discipline problem went up because of Sergeant Smith becoming a drinking buddy on weekends. Keeping yourself separated is a lonely prospect. You have to be approachable, and yet a mystery to your subordinates. They can't know if you have a wife, children, or anything else about your background. Officers are commissioned and the good ones stick to this to maintain good discipline among the ranks. There's an old saying I'm sure everyone here is familiar with-----Farmililarly breeds contempt---the words were never truer.

Response by SFC Robert Brooks made Apr 14 at 2020 9:06 AM

2020-04-14T09:06:49-04:00

We have a group of leaders that grew up in combat and are great combat leaders, but do not know how to lead in garrison, which is just as important. I understand they are tired (been there, done that) and want to spend time with their families, but Soldiers still need their leadership when the combat mission is over and the garrison mission begins. Stop texting your leadership decisions, put your phones down and lead.

Response by SSG Timothy Hertenstein made Apr 20 at 2020 9:43 AM

2020-04-20T09:43:36-04:00

The ARMY needs to get back to the time before it became a Boy Scout Camp. I went to Basic in 1968.
That was the REAL ARMY. Discipline was #1 seams that today no one cares ! I say go back to the Draft. Start over again make it REAL!!! Not a Game. I Retired it 1989 and can say that I'm a PROUD Vietnam Veteran.

Response by PO1 Gerald Millione made Apr 22 at 2020 7:52 PM

2020-04-22T19:52:30-04:00

capt wilford: the military forces create their own leaders, enlisted and officer. few persons entering military service are blessed with military leadership knowledge, understanding, and application when compared to those leaders who were taught military protocol, leadership fundamentals, and hierarchy. boot camp actually did little to teach me leadership, but did a lot to show me how to follow orders. big difference there. as i moved around to three different military branches, rising through the enlisted ranks i saw many examples of enlisted and officer leadership, but i'll say this: what they all had in common was respect for the chain of command. having served in viet nam gulf of tonkin in the 60's, and 20years later as a reservist in the marines and the army i saw a generational alteration in military discipline. one petty officer friend of mine, he was active duty on a nuc carrier, said there was this thing called a "card". if a sailor felt or believed he/she was being stressed (whatever the etiology) they could apply the card to the situation and it would relieve them of facing the issue, or something like that. i really dont know first hand about that but it is what i remember being told in early part of the 20's. i was retired in 2004.

i believe now that boot camp needs to be disciplined from day one. raise the standard, not lower it. recruits believe it because they see it on television, they dont know any better. but discipline needs to be mixed with leadership principles, not just in the classroom dogma, but shown what leadership is through cited example. my own military examples of leaders was based more on chain of command. if you had the badge you wore it. if you didnt you followed it. that simple. a couple of recruits in my boot unit were sent home for lack of discipline. for inability to accept orders. maybe these days the standard for getting in is lowered, and the means of staying in is lower still. in any case a great divide exists between officers and enlisted, and even within the enlisted ranks there seems to be a civilian like approach to everything military. a leader raises up, not pummels down. a leader empathizes but gets the message across. a leader shows the way not just hands you a map and walks off. maybe to sum it up, a leader gets his hands dirty, but doesnt let the dirt stay under his fingernails.

PS: for me the whole military went to shit when women were integrated into the most personal close contact situations. can a woman make a good fighter pilot, yes. can she carry, drag or cover a 200 pound wounded male from the enemy in a fire fight - maybe, maybe not. i wouldnt want my life to be the one to bring out the answer.

praise be to god and country. gerald

Response by LCDR Joseph Richter made Apr 25 at 2020 1:16 AM

2020-04-25T01:16:02-04:00

This is something during my time I saw on a continuous basis. Not called for and I did not put up with it. When I was a young enlisted man in the Navy, I saw some of it and was really put out by it, my second and third tour of duty was as a Corpsman with the Marine Corps. I'm telling you, day one with the Corps, I learned there was a big separation between E-1 to E-2 to E-3 and beyond. You called no one by their first name unless you were the same rank or the other lower in rank to you. Discipline was everything there and stuff got done faster, better, and more of it because we just did it, didn't talk back and wanted to get it done and get on to other things. Later, when commissioned and I was an OIC I would witness how some younger enlisted sailors were addressing higher ranking, Chiefs even. I pulled the Chiefs aside and said, they were to take care of it or we would all be talking about it at 3:00 a.m. in the conference room. That happened twice, people didn't like it and discipline got better. I leaned on my senior enlisted leaders to change the culture, and they did. I really believe the younger enlisted appreciated the discipline, knew where they stood at all times and were well recognized for their military demeanor. Don't ever give in on discipline, get on it, in an operational or wartime scenario, it may save someones life.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2020 2:28 AM

2020-04-25T02:28:26-04:00

I noticed the same thing too , I figured it's because some of these soldiers are young . I'm 37 and only started 3 years ago, the reason why I joined , long story short , child support is a sonava bish , I thought maybe its because lack of bad life experiences, because to me , despite the things I put up with the army , is still better than putting up with BS in the civilian world. The army is actually better, should've enlisted forever ago , better late than never i guess.

Response by SFC James (Jim) R Brown made Apr 25 at 2020 11:20 PM

2020-04-25T23:20:47-04:00

If there is a discipline problem with any grade it is due to the Senior NCO and Officers. If they do not exercise their command powers a should be there will be a problem with the troops below them.

Response by SPC Robert Lefebvre made Apr 26 at 2020 5:52 PM

2020-04-26T17:52:38-04:00

I'm afraid thats characteristic of society in general Garbage in garbage out !!!

Response by Cpl Ernest Thomas made Apr 29 at 2020 8:12 PM

2020-04-29T20:12:32-04:00

The issue isn't only with the lower enlisted. he issue is ARMY wide, from the top down.

2005 FLARNG 164th ADA, annual training at Ft Stewart GA. I was a (VERY) salty SPC. (6 years prior service USMC, 19 year break in service, 14 years law enforcement as a road deputy sheriff) I was put in charge of a few tasks to be completed out in the field operations specifically the TOC. I had a PV1 and a PV2 literally tell me NO, they didn't want to do that. Too bad!!! I tried explaining to them beforehand why they need to follow orders, we're not friends, buddies or pal's, we are soldiers doing soldier shit! I chewed them out until they thought I was going to beat them. When I finished they both went straight to a Lt Col which was near by and heard most of the exchange and complained, The light Bird called me over while playing dumb and asked me what the issue was, after stating my apologies for the two PVT's not following the chain of command I explained the issue. I believe the Lt. Col just wanted to see if I was speaking truthfully. The Light Bird acknowledged my apology and proceeded to light-up the PVT's [The Lt Col was prior enlisted, Army Special Forces].. A few days later I got my ass chewed by a couple E-'7's [later found out the E-7's were banging both PVT's] The Lt Col had seen this but said nothing at the time.

A few more days later we were in morning formation and given instruction's that upon leaving the Mess Trailer we were to grab 2 MRE's each for our mid day and evening rations. Come mid day meal I went to find some shade and I saw a PVT looking around at everyone with their MRE's. The PVT seemed confused so I approached him and asked what the problem was,. The PVT stated he was wondering where everyone got their MRE's. I said, did you not listen in formation this morning. He informed me that he had been on an early morning detail and wasn't in formation. He said he never got to eat breakfast either. I was dumbfounded that his platoon leader hadn't procured any food for this young PVT. I walked him over to the mess trailer to attempt to help him get a couple MRE's. The mess trailer detail was of zero assistance from the E-8 down. I then handed the PVT my MRE and told him to let me have anything he didn't want. I wound up with crackers.

Now remember the two E-7's that were banging the two young PVT's from earlier, Well they watched me give the PVT my MRE. NEITHER heard our conversation nor did they know why the PVT didn't have any MRE's all these 2 doucheknuckles knew was here is a PVT with no food and now I gave my food to him so NOW I have no mid day meal. These two fools proceeded to light me up once again. I stood there and took the ass chewing, verbal assaults, name calling and all round belligerence. When they seemed to be finishing up, here come the Lt. Col who apparently had seen what I was doing for the PVT and had actually heard part of the conversation. I locked up, the two E-7's stood there all cocky until the Lt Col. made them lock it up while telling me to relax. The Lt. Col had me explain to the two douchnozzles WHY I was giving up my MRE and that the PVT was away prior to to formation so he never got the instructions to grab two MRE's AND that he never got breakfast. I further explained that the VERY FIRST thing any Marine NCO is taught, TAKE CARE OF YOUR TROOPS! That is why I gave up my food to the PVT. The Lt Col dismissed me and the PVT. As we walked away I heard two E-7's getting a serious verbal reprimand. Both wound up with official sanctions in their records. As for me, I wound up with a little green and white ribbon and a piece of paper to wipe my ass with but more importantly, I also wound up gaining more respect from the junior enlisted and officers...

My point is, it's NOT just the junior enlisted with the attitude and discipline problems.

Response by 1SG Steven Malkowski made May 3 at 2020 8:52 AM

2020-05-03T08:52:59-04:00

I believe that the discipline problems in the Army (and all the military services) is a generational one. When I started on Active Duty in the post Vietnam volunteer Army, there were all kinds of problems with discipline, alcohol, drugs etc. I kept very busy as an MP in Germany dragging wayward soldiers to the station or in some cases they went directly to their 1SG. Continuing my service in the Guard, things vastly improved in the 80's and 90's. Discipline suffered again about 3-5 years after 9/11 as the Army lowered standards for enlistment because of the need for manpower. Waivers for law violations, drug use and taking in non HS graduates. As you reap so shall you sow. The recent generations of recruits also come in with an entitlement mentality. The "everyone gets a trophy" mentality. It's not across the board. I agree with the SFC who commented that the more hard charging units like Airborne, Cav, Rangers and outfits such as the USMC have more dedicated soldiers thus less disciplinary problems compared to the general soldier. I've glossed over several topics but you could easily write a book about this issue. Many more factors are at play here involving our society as a whole. Good luck. Hope I've given you some food for thought.

Response by SFC John Fourquet made May 4 at 2020 12:00 AM

2020-05-04T00:00:56-04:00

The problem is NCOs not doing their jobs and a chain of command not doing anything to fix the NCOs or back NCOs when they try to discipline soldiers. The really sad thing is the Army will promote these problem soldiers to NCOs and the problem just continues.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2020 11:06 PM

2020-05-06T23:06:24-04:00

I’ve seen E-8s and above have discipline issues as well not SFCs and below only difference upper echelon and Senior Ncos so called standard bearers have more accessibility to cover up their faults. The standards come from the top so if they aren’t making effective changes holding standards it trickles down to the lowest level

Response by PV2 James Johnson made May 10 at 2020 12:22 AM

2020-05-10T00:22:37-04:00

When I got out of the Army in 1971, just back from Vietnam, (3 years in). I saw a different Army materializing, so the choice for me was to get out. I walked into a mess hall and saw changes that told me it wasn't right for me anymore. The current situation is just one of many problems I saw coming, the new army as it was being touted.

Response by CPT Derek Wren made May 10 at 2020 4:16 PM

2020-05-10T16:16:54-04:00

As others have said on here, the discipline and respect as well as customs and So forth are quite often at Company and or BN level. We could talk about this all day long as I was firm believer in leading by example and if you are an NCO then you damn well better act the part or will be replaced. Just as a commander can be removed, enlisted soldiers within a company can be just as easily if not easier. When I joined in 02’ I stood at parade rest as we are required to do, not asked nicely to do! From 02’ through my time as a 2nd LT, 1LT then on to Company Commander, I watched before my eyes the as the lower enlisted went from showing respect and completing the mission to needing their hands held and somebody watching over them. Not in all cases was this true but the majority of what I saw was this occurring. On more than one occasion after telling my 1SG I wanted the building cleared as I could not hear myself think, the troops and even some NCO’s disregarded what they were told. At said time I walked out of my office and dropped the hammered that NCO’s better act the part of an NCO or come let me know you want out so I can get your paperwork started as I had the full backing on my BC. It took the soldiers a matter of seconds before the building was cleared.
The point of this story was the fact that lower enlisted are going to follow suits right behind NCO’s, and if they see them doing or acting they please the lower enlisted will follow their lead. As time goes on these lower enlisted move up to NCO’s and continue the cycle. Additionally I believe. Very strongly that this mindset starts now in Basic Training as opposed to years ago when Basic Training was a place that set the ground work for the making of solid soldiers which will then move on to their respected unit and hopefully continue that cycle.
As one other person stated on here, a units leadership( regardless of size and structure) is responsible for instilling discipline within the ranks.
I will say that I did always like and very much respect the USMC for the discipline of their marines, regardless of rank and or title.
Best of luck on your white paper.

Response by SSG Dave Johnston made May 11 at 2020 8:47 PM

2020-05-11T20:47:10-04:00

This "discipline" issue began post Viet Nam, late '70s early '80s, when some "thinkspank D.C. consulting firm" bilked the DOD a couple of million dollars, convincing them, the DOD, that it, and its subordinate branches should adopt a "Corporate" like image. Something about reducing the images of "The Atrocities of War" on the Services... Hope they like what they engineered, removing the ability of the Superior Officer or NCO to be Judge, Jury, Executioner, and Confessor, no paperwork required, with discipline, respect, and cohesiveness restored, all in the space of a minute.

Response by SSG Mark Burke made May 12 at 2020 2:26 PM

2020-05-12T14:26:35-04:00

You Sir are a new officer in your "All New Army" as it was posted and fed to us up until my retirement. I'm a retired NCO and understand your frustrations to the "T". Problem is my man, you joined an ASS KISSING Army where the lower enlisted as well as the NCO ranks have come to think, "believe AND BEHAVE in a manner where they feel you listen or go sit in your corner bc I have more time cleaning latrines than you have active duty". Same shit, different military. Stand your ground, enforce discipline from "TOP" down and ensure your unit has faith in you. A couple "let-go's" are cool. Major infractions punish but, easy brother, you still want them. Share kindness in your command and punish those who refuse to be or are otherwise disruptive. Just an ol' time NCO Sir!!

Response by SGT Juan Robledo made May 23 at 2020 4:07 PM

2020-05-23T16:07:41-04:00

possibly the lack of respect due to their up bringing, many see other soldiers mouth off and that isn't right, so therefore the issue

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2020 1:47 PM

2020-05-25T13:47:51-04:00

My insight is as follows Sir - discipline in the military has different meaning then anywhere else. I.e. immediate attention to orders, GO’s, courage under fire, physical fitness. The list could get quite long. I’ve served in both active Marines and Army and I’ve noticed the same thing you have. Bluntly I think it’s largely due to political correctness. The Marine Corps has an attitude that all they do is “kill, kill, kill!” Every Marine a Rifleman. They’re pretty good at instilling that attitude as well. It’s cool to be truly gifted at ‘closing with and destroying your enemy.’ The Army on the other hand is has way too many different mind sets it struggles with. The large portion of Soldiers I interact with and get to know join because they have nothing else to do, or because they initially thought the gun hoe Army they saw televised inspired them and then they experienced the actual Army. NCO’s are largely tasked with instilling discipline and without a singular, widely accepted mindset, it feels like the NCO’s and Soldiers don’t know what’s expected of them so they don’t try as hard.

As well, four years in the Corps I don’t remember participating in a single parade, publicity march, or other social media formations. In the little over 2 years I’ve been Active Army I’ve had to cancel planned training more times then I’ve been able to execute training I’ve tried planning. The Corps and Army practice different priorities a daily basis and I feel that’s what you’re seeing as the discipline issue sir.

Response by CPT Eireanne Russ made May 28 at 2020 6:12 PM

2020-05-28T18:12:59-04:00

This is an interesting question, and one that is not new. Those of us who served in the late 70s and in the 80s had similar challenges.

This is a leadership challenge and young leaders have to be committed to leadership 24/7. Setting and expecting high standards is the start but LIVING those standards each and every moment is the key to success.

I think that it has it's roots in spending so much time on the battlefield with a limited, and non-specific, strategic objective, no truly decisive engagements and a lack of demonstrated national will in the endeavor. A war that started out with a call to arms and a visible rallying point is now being fought by soldiers (E1-E5 and O1-O3) who were not old enough to have their own emotional responses to the attack on the World Trade Center. Very reminiscent of the Vietnam War.

Soldiers commit to fighting and dying, but no one at home has any real skin in the game except parents. In fact more and more of the service age youth see it as an errant cause and choose not to participate. In 2001-2003 a large number of young people wanted to do something because the smoking towers were burned into their memories, that is not so today, so the quality of recruits is lower than in the early ‘00s. In the late 70’s and early 80’s we had an equally, possibly lower level of quality and motivation.

It took a combination of NCO’s willing to hold the line every moment of every day and backed up by officers who want to see them do it. And there are a lot of us out there. My PLT SGT and Asst PLT SGT were attacked in the barracks because they were holding the platoon responsible for nasty looking rooms two weeks before I arrived at the battalion. They knew the attack would happen and went into the barracks anyway. They were not because looking for a fight, but they were not going to allow the troops to intimidate them either.

Three E5s and two SP4s lost two pay grades and we chaptered the three E5s out of the service with other than honorable discharges. Interestingly, one of the former E4s regained his rank then earned his E5 to replace his E6 who was a week leader and had allowed the ill-disciplined behavior in the first place. I like to think that because my PLT SGT and I were willing to hold them to high standards and led with high standards for training and performance this young man became all he could be.

The key is, and always has been, leaders who set high standards by demonstrating those high standards. In my life after the military I have found that setting, demonstrating, and expecting high standards of performance works even with delinquent youth.

I will add to this that in the early 80’s the military was willing to allow the removal of poor performers while the DOD was willing to only recruit quality people and the Army was focused on empowering young leaders (Corporals, Sergeants and lieutenants) to lead and to identify their best solutions to the problems they faced. You don’t need to be the biggest baddest person to ever wear the uniform, you just have to seek excellence in yourself and your subordinates and be the last one to quit.

Response by SGT Lloyd Burge made May 29 at 2020 9:58 PM

2020-05-29T21:58:07-04:00

Sir, I see that this was posted 10 months ago. I served in the Army from 76-87, two tours of Korea, 1 in Germany. Although my observations are old, I have had 32 years to reflect. I hope my comments help.
Vietnam devastated the Army officer corps. Discipline was left to the NCOs. Minor infractions were dealt without UCMJ action. They were dealt with by extra work details, restriction to barracks. This kept career ruining ART 15s down. The NCOs were able to show that they genuinely cared about the soldiers assigned to them.
This started to change in the 80's. As the officer corps grew stronger the NCO corps grew weaker. UCMJ actions became much more common, leading to a decrease in morale. From my observations, for brevity general observations, NCOs were focused on the next promotion, officers were focused on the next posting, and the lower enlisted were ignored.

Response by SGT Jacob Rentz made Jun 3 at 2020 9:34 PM

2020-06-03T21:34:43-04:00

The Army has changed so much since the 90s. I was in an Infantry unit and saw someone get an article 15 for disrespect to an NCO

Response by CPL Charles Jackson made Jun 5 at 2020 10:27 AM

2020-06-05T10:27:52-04:00

Their are several factors to your statement/Question. One being that the Marine Corp has a great pool of people that are competing for rank and job slots. Second the Army looks a non NCO's enlisted as replaceable along with rank of E-1 through E-4 as auto promotions. What is also a contributing factor is that the Army changes its retention standards. This is based on slots that are vacate, along with its budget that is authorized by congress. The Pentagon often reviews its personnel needs vs equipment needs to keep within its operational budget,

Response by SSG David Angell made Jun 7 at 2020 7:14 PM

2020-06-07T19:14:12-04:00

The problem is that the Army, as well as the Air Force cater to the lower enlisted. Instead of "Putting their Foot Down", they cater to them. They know nothing will be done to them.
When I first went in (1969), if you didn't do what you were told to do, you got your ass handed to you, that is after the punishment phase.

Response by CPT Cavett Ishihara made Jun 7 at 2020 10:28 PM

2020-06-07T22:28:39-04:00

You observe from your point of view. Like many of the discussions online here, the Soldier has the problem to adapt to the mission and standard. Discipline is a paperwork and signature issue. Troops are human, the regs are not perfect. The result is an outcome of understanding the order, the mission and objective ---nothing more.

Response by SSG Robert Heistand made Jun 24 at 2020 7:30 AM

2020-06-24T07:30:29-04:00

Having served it both the Marine Corps and Army there are many differences. some good some bad in both. marine discipline on lower ranks is so strict as to almost be oppressive. It is so totally focused on the team mentality.as to stifle innovation and individual drive. This However is the total opposite in the Army. The team concept is in much broader terms there and innovation is allowed. the Officer Corps and the senior NCo's keep it in line more then Cpl-SSgt.The personal style of the upper leadership sets the grounds for the level of discipline.While in the Corps it is at the lower levels .This may be due to the always shortage of Seniors and Officers, involvement with non rates in the Corps.
army has more of both and more involvement and familiarity to with non rates. personal lives still exist in the Army not so in the Corps. I have seen this first hand and had a hard time adjusting to it.

Response by Cpl Carlos E Elliott made Jul 12 at 2020 9:22 AM

2020-07-12T09:22:59-04:00

I understand what u r saying as a Former NCO Marine after I got out I decided to joint the National Guard and when activated for active duty I thought the lack of disabling from most all the ranks would change but it did not. The fact is for some reason the Army is in a whole different category and getting worse.

Response by SGM Omer Dalton made Jul 12 at 2020 8:18 PM

2020-07-12T20:18:37-04:00

I enlisted in the Army in 1960 and stayed for 22 years. I saw it go from the draft to the all volunteer Army. I watched discipline degrade over the years. It was really bad during the late 60s to mid 70s when it started to level out by the time I retired in 1982. It boiled down to NCOs and Officers trying to be buddies and catering to subordinates along with degrading of morales, ethics, discipline, and work ethic in the civilian world. This translated into incoming enlisted and officers. Bottom line there was a clash between the old and new enlisted and officers. All of a sudden subordinates began to question authority and there was a reluctance to face the issues. There was no real standard, just lip service; therefore discipline varied between units and confused young soldiers. A rash of article 15s and other actions reflected on commander’s efficiency reports and issues that previously stayed in the preview of NCOs migrated to the officer level; therefore degraded NCOs’ ability keep order most often not supported by commanders. The Army did stop a lot of make work BS and improved the quality of life for soldiers and families. Fast forward to today and see how today’s youth react to authority and you see a whole new set of problems. Maybe that should be subject of your paper. That being said, I am sure each service have the same issues. The proof in the pudding is how they are handled or maybe hidden. By the way I worked for the Army as a civilian for another 22 years and saw it all change. Being the civilian supervisor/rater for enlisted and officers up to and include LTC level created a whole new set of issues. Good luck on your paper.

Response by SPC Franklin McKown made Jul 17 at 2020 5:07 PM

2020-07-17T17:07:09-04:00

Lack of effective primitive brutality...No fear of authority is rampant ...as we surely notice surrounding us,MAN-BOYS who got to stay that way and were protectively shielded from a measured corporal punishment.
The "NATIONAL EMERGENCY " with China and the Mysterious bombings of Iran are occurring(After an Israeli F-35 created a map of critical targets because the local AIRBOSS was a chicken and as in ALL centrally commanded armies, was too scared to function correctly,and report it )...is a wake up call if things go kinetic ,you will anyway.
I won't miss the social experiments.

Response by CPO John Moore made Jul 19 at 2020 2:50 AM

2020-07-19T02:50:41-04:00

This may frost a lot of arses in the military but In my opinion, there is a lack of leadership from the top man down to the lowest man/woman in the military. Somewhere in the past few years leadership seemed to have slipped out the door when it was left open and no one went to look for it. I guess my old school way of thinking has left a sour taste in my mouth for the new PC military that is coming online now. I'm still proud of the men/women who serve this country, but someone needs to get their duck in a row. (Too much crap has been taking place that should have not took if the leadership was there).

Response by SGT Rafael Morales made Jul 23 at 2020 11:11 PM

2020-07-23T23:11:28-04:00

There have been many changes as to how the Army conducts basic training. I think the problem is there.

Response by Cpl Mark McMiller made Aug 3 at 2020 12:26 PM

2020-08-03T12:26:54-04:00

I don't know much about Army recruit training, but in Marine boot camp they made the entire Series (company) watch the Series Commander conduct Office Hours (Article 15 Non-Judicial Punishment) of recruits who had violated the UCMJ. I assume this is done to leave the impression in all of the recruit's minds that there are serous consequences for misconduct. There is no grey area in the Marine Corps; if you get caught violating the UCMJ, you expect to be seriously punished. I don't know about regular Army, but when I served in the ARNG after the Marines, it seemed like some could get away with things depending on how well liked they were by the powers that be.

Response by LTC Barry Hull made Aug 19 at 2020 8:26 AM

2020-08-19T08:26:00-04:00

As CSM Everroad implied, this question begs a doctoral thesis. But the big changes I have noticed are: people are joining for a different reason now. Basic need, a job vs the glow of patriotism after 9/11. Second, I have watch over the last 40 years the slow erosion of the front line NCOs ability to correct soldier behavior. There was once in the army a thing called an on the spot correction. NCO power to improve discipline. Not to be confused with abuse. My impression is the NCO who try to discipline soldier end up the ones being counseled because they have violated some pc policy. So NCOs stop being NCOs.

Response by SPC Jason Knocke made Aug 19 at 2020 11:02 PM

2020-08-19T23:02:51-04:00

I believe its more of a brotherhood thing and comroderie thing. When i was lower enlisted i showed my respect in situations that called for it but as a whole we were all brothers in arms and that was more of a show than anything. When i was deployed for operation uphold democracy in Haiti im not sure i ever said yes sargeant or anything of that nature. We were more worried about getting shot by aks at that point. I ultimately ended my tour there for last 90 days driving colnels and higher many times driving certain generals and i hope I maintained my discipline with rank then but when bullets were flying i can promise you i didnt say sir or ma’am. Just a though situation dictates alot

Response by SGT Justin Anderson made Aug 19 at 2020 11:06 PM

2020-08-19T23:06:01-04:00

Discipline is lacking on all levels. Not limited to privates. The issue is two way.

Response by SPC Steven Depuy made Aug 20 at 2020 12:45 PM

2020-08-20T12:45:24-04:00

Look at the questions that get posted on here. Young enlisted personal complaining about their rights being abused, making us work Saturday, inspecting my room, telling me how I can dress to travel, the list goes on and on. I don't want to be that cranky old dude, but I mean when I signed the contract, I felt I gave up my free will for the term, today, the kids demand their rights to everything. Don't curse at my boy drill instructor, you might hurt his feelings. Or going from don't ask don't tell, to the military should pay for my sex change. My room mate was gay in 76, we all knew it, we didn't care. He did his job. Now not all units might have been that way, but it was my experience. He was not the first one, nor the first one known, and would not be the last. But now, I am sure you would be concerned about how you talked to a gay soldier, because you could end up having charges brought. Its a different world I guess.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2020 11:43 PM

2020-09-10T23:43:03-04:00

Ha! Junior Officers too....

Response by SFC Martin King made Sep 11 at 2020 7:43 AM

2020-09-11T07:43:41-04:00

Remember when then Bradley Manning was finally busted. Leading up to that point there were many indications of serious discipline problems and leadership failures. The then guy was throwing tantrums, refusing to obey orders and doing as he pleased with enlisted and officer leaders failing to hold him (Manning was a him then.) accountable. Apparently, aversion to confrontation and/or fear of not being backed by superiors allowed an unstable individual to steal thousands of files with impunity. He displayed many of the classic character traits of a security risk. When I read of his antics, I was dumbfounded at the thought that his ass wasn't booted out long before his treasonous acts.

Response by PO2 Ed Fielding made Sep 14 at 2020 1:42 PM

2020-09-14T13:42:35-04:00

I don't believe it's just an 'Army' problem. Although I was never in the army, I was in the Navy back in the 60's and never saw that as a problem that it is today. I believe the lack of respect and discipline starts with parents who either don't teach these traits, or don't care. I believe you can also lay this at the doorstep of today's schools and institutions of "higher learning". Take look at what's happening now in Portland, Or., Chicago, New York or Minneapolis. As a former LEO in Los Angeles for 29 years, I watched the youth of that city slowly slide into the tank. I retired in 1995, thank goodness.
I rest my case.

Response by PO3 John Raymond made Sep 17 at 2020 11:50 AM

2020-09-17T11:50:22-04:00

The ranks in the military come from civilians. Most of them are US citizens. The US is a country about me. Not about us. It used to be about us...but that's been perverted over the centuries since it's founding. Now...it's all about me. Can I get mine. What's in it for me. This sort of cultural attitude does not lead to good discipline, good order following, and good military personnel. Want better personnel? Maybe start trying to get our culture back on track instead of continuing it's descent into all about me.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 17 at 2020 1:18 PM

2020-09-17T13:18:21-04:00

Just to offer a perspective, in 1973 I arrived at Fort Hood Texas, a brand new 2lt, 22 years old with the fate of the free world on my shoulders. In my first assignment, I had several senior NCO's with nearly 30 years experience including WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. We did a command post exercise using the battle of the bulge scenario. Pop (SFC) Lee came and gave a talk to the command group about driving an ambulance between Bastonge and St. Vith through the course of the battle, even when both were virtually or actually surrounded. In the Corps G2 section we had a Master Sergeant that was 13 years old, living in Hiroshima the day the bomb fell. He had been caught in Japan visiting Grandparents when the war broke out. All this was a Corps level. I learned a lot from those senior NCOs. Then I got my first assignment to a Division, to command a platoon in the Combat Intelligence Company. The outgoing PSG was a SSG. He was schedule do retire in a couple of days as an 05. He had been RIF as the war drew down and assumed his permanent rank though he kept being promoted for time in service through AUS. The regular Army/AUS/Reserves was a mess. His replacement was a PFC who had been an acting Corporal and who was on the list to become an E4 (specialist) we made him an acting jack SGT E5. At 22, I literally was the oldest guy in the platoon. We would occasionally have senior NCOs float through, most on their was to retirement. Then I got assigned to a Cavalry Squadron. My G2 NCO told stories of how 2lt Patton would line them up and talk to them about the strategic situation while on his first assignment in Germany just after WWII. He also related stories about his tank being swarmed with Chinese soldiers in Korea, they would scratch at the lenses to the periscopes, couldn't figure out how they could see the Americans inside the tank but couldn't touch them. The Cavalry was full of RIF Aviator NCOs. There were a very few really high quality NCO's and they were spread thin. The average PSG was 22-25 years old and an Acting NCO frocked to distinguish him from the crowd. VOLAR was coming to save us and the last of the draftees were returning from overseas assignments to serve out a few remaining months on active service Morale was low, suicides were high, the RIFs were still going on. Race riots in the mess halls and barracks were common. Early on the Expeditious Discharge Program was only available in USAEUR. Under that program, all it took was an 06 to sign off on the discharge and the soldier was fired. Fort Hood began rotational duties sending a brigade to EUROPE for 6 months at a time. Units deploying had a high proportion of discharges from the Expeditious Discharge Program. The improvement was noticeable and the Army adopted that globally. The draftees were gone by then, most AUS former officers retired, and the youngsters that had stood in the breach were well on their way to creating a true professional NCO Corps. Several very bright LTC's and a brilliant General Officer began to examine the true rebuilding of our force. No matter how you cut the pie, the bottom line was that the 10-13 years in Vietnam had weakened the force as a whole through attritiion. One NCO explained you could do one tour in Vietnam and figure you owed that, you could do a second tour and you coould figure that you were really needed. But when you returned and started thinking about a third tour, the odds of your luck running out made that job with your brother-in-laws' construction company look pretty damned good. That is where we lost a good part of our professional force. As a Cavalry Troop Commander it hit home as I watched my re enlistments. Sergeants with 9-11 years and Officers with 5+ years were the ones that we were literally hemorraging. As the Army began to rebuild, these professionals were retained at higher numbers and unit cohesiveness began to improve alogn with the weapons, tactics, doctrine, and quality of the soldiers we were getting on board. We could not have shifted from a largely analog force to a digitally commanded and controlled and supported force with the soldiers we had in the early 1970's, and maybe the late 1960's. By the early 1980's officers and NCO's were expected to earn collage degrees and literally had to to keep up with the caliber of soldiers that were coming in and that includes the greater roles and numbers of women. You guys on active duty now are in a position where the force is drawing inward and downward. I have been curious about your experiences post Middle East as opposed to my post Vietnam experience. Heck I am not even sure what they expect of the Army now One thing that I learned when I began to have joint assignements was that in regards to Marines, it is a Corps, the Army had 3 corps in Conus and two in Europe then. I don't even think the Marines have Armor any more and I do not know how many flags have stood down over the years. So my response is that the Armed Forces, and our Nation, has been at war a long time and we should expect to be required to sit down, rethink our purpose, and set a course to rebuild. Just an opinion.

Response by SGT Jack Stevens made Sep 18 at 2020 2:16 AM

2020-09-18T02:16:53-04:00

yes apparently it is a generational thing. Even though as an NCO who was medicaled out back in 2006. I had soldiers who thought they could disrespect me. But I got point across to them. Its sad when a lower ranking NCO had more respect for me, than those of higher rank in the chain of concern. Sadly today I have witnessed the disrespect happen in front of me. I've even taken the soldier aside and whispered if they didn't get there shit together, I would be back to unpack their duffle. And if I ever witnessed it happening again, they would wish their mommy's were there. And then addressed the young NCO he had failed the NCO Creed and had best unpack his head from his duffle bag.

Response by SGT Allen Treviranus made Sep 18 at 2020 1:57 PM

2020-09-18T13:57:05-04:00

NCOs treat lower enlisted like they are friends, and are too afraid to hold people accountable. I feel this is the root cause of the problem.

Response by SGT Carl Watson made Sep 18 at 2020 7:14 PM

2020-09-18T19:14:42-04:00

I originally wanted to join the Air Force to become a fixed wing pilot but after my first semester of college the Army offered me an opportunity to become a Warrant Officer to fly helicopters. I was temporarily stationed on an Air Force Base and I personally compared of how the air personnel volunteered compared to the Army that at times drafted civilians, had higher criminal offenses accepted, assigned the Reserves and have more soldiers who a judge may have given one a choice or other poorer parental upbringing as compared to the air personnel. In other words I have found more Army soldiers who may choose or may not choose the Infantry, artillery etc. and do not like the authority being at the bottom as compared to the Air personnel who have more skilled schooling.

Response by SGT Robert Pryor made Sep 18 at 2020 9:44 PM

2020-09-18T21:44:05-04:00

Maybe because "enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly and bear considerable watching!" I proved that repeatedly when I was in the Army.

Response by SSG James Green made Sep 26 at 2020 7:30 PM

2020-09-26T19:30:26-04:00

Captain Michael Wilford, my name is James R. Green retired SSG, U. S. Army. I served as a grunt in the 3rd Battalion of the 33rd infantry Division for six years. I took a 20 year break in service and re enlisted in 1974 into the Corp. of Engineers. Six months later I transferred into the Military Police and retired in 1992 after 33 years of service. The probable reason for lack of discipline may be because of the current trend of the social unrest. I guess we have a bad crop of young people these days.

Response by CPT Carolyn Andrews made Sep 27 at 2020 3:46 PM

2020-09-27T15:46:03-04:00

I've seen the discipline of soldiers decline with each generation. When spanking in schools were taken away the discipline also declined.
In the late 70's the government was trying to pass that children can turn parents in for spanking them. This is when parents didn't know how to discipline their children, didn't want to get reported especially by their children.
As 21st century comes along, discipline is out the window. Some soldiers are disciplined while others just don't care.
And the Military has both types in their ranks.

Response by PO1 Richard Mecom made Oct 5 at 2020 8:56 AM

2020-10-05T08:56:04-04:00

Is it true the Army has a "Time Out Card"?

Response by 1SG Patrick Sims made Oct 6 at 2020 3:05 PM

2020-10-06T15:05:08-04:00

Having served in the Marine Corps and the Army, there is a dramatically different approach to discipline. In the Corps, there is little interaction between enlisted and NCO's. The junior enlisted know little about their NCO's which works well when orders are given and executed. The Army, on the other hand, allows some fraternization in the ranks between NCOs and enlisted. It makes for a more relaxed atmosphere. At the end of the day, orders are given, received, and executed.
In addition, I've found Army soldiers have their MOS down cold and are much better at their field skills than Marines.

Response by SFC Ariel Pagan made Oct 7 at 2020 12:51 PM

2020-10-07T12:51:16-04:00

Everything start back in 1987
When I was a Drill Sergeant a team of doctor visit my unit and interviewed all the Drill Sergeant asking what was the motive for us to implement harsh discipline on new recruits. All of us give our reasons of why discipline implemented in the early stage will mold a soldier to follow orders without hesitation. About couple months later the Army implement new rules such as soldier can’t be doing PT before 6:00am and so on
Now years later good leaders has to put out with indiscipline soldiers

Response by CPT Carolyn Andrews made Oct 14 at 2020 10:14 PM

2020-10-14T22:14:53-04:00

When I was at AIT the Army's primary schoolschooling. Some soldiers to be high schoolish.
Now you can drink all the beer you can drink.
But I also saw the First Sgt stand before the Company and preach to us about the wrongs of drinking then get drunk as a skunk at a Company's party. Then go to church and preach to the soldiers about the sins of drinking. He also jumps on soldiers for getting too drunk.
So young soldiers and older soldiers will get drunk and make a fool out of themselves.
I've learned that no matter at what age soldiers will get drunk.
In Germany on a Mountain Top, the young soldiers would get drunk because they could. One soldier almost died because of alcohol poisoning. I had to take her to a German Hospital for treatment.
I learned that if I was going to drink it would be in my home. But never again would i get drunk.

CPT

Response by SPC Franklin McKown made Oct 25 at 2020 1:12 PM

2020-10-25T13:12:33-04:00

The last administration deliberately sought to undermine US combat prestige, Pastel uniforms for target designation...we still won, ROEs requiring the enemy to close before engagements we still won... Introduction to sensitivity training and integration of the sexes in all combat arms, they'll bury a lot in China. with the watered down training and standards .I wonder if they even PMCS on vehicles anymore ...because it's TOO heavy and uncomfortable.

Response by SSG Brian Carpenter made Oct 25 at 2020 1:30 PM

2020-10-25T13:30:51-04:00

I saw this issue beginning at my last assignment before I retired. I followed it as my stepson did his time,(medically retired) and have watched in the news and Army sites over the years. One reason was the "DEATH" of the truly professional NCO Corps. It became everyone was worthy of promotion whether they actually were or not and a lot of those sergeants had no loyalty to the military or their own soldiers/leaders. I've read stories of sergeants who could not zero or qualify with their individually assigned weapons let alone have no MOS proficiency. The bottom line is that politics and a undetermined time at war has seriously undermined the discipline and respect I not only taught my soldiers and those around us but gave way completely to individual pride instead of Esprit de Corps. Sadly I wonder what it will take before our senior leaders tell their civilian counterparts that yes right are important for all servicemembers but not at the cost of professionalism and discipline. Judt take a look at the news, suicides, murders and defections are the norm now. In all of my 20 years of service I never thought this would happen.

Response by Cpl Dale Nelson made Nov 5 at 2020 10:04 PM

2020-11-05T22:04:11-05:00

I had a gunnie explain it to me this way.in the army before you go into combat.you get a hot meal.2 beers 8 hour sleep.I'm the marine corps they shit on bread give it to you.then you go into combat

Response by SPC Jasen E. made Dec 6 at 2020 5:19 PM

2020-12-06T17:19:44-05:00

I think something that the Army is missing is Army history. Soldiers don't know WHY they should be proud of the the service they chose to serve in. I served in the Navy Sea Cadets as a kid before joining and medically retiring from the Army. While we were just kids in the Sea Cadets, we were expected to intimately know Navy history and why we should be proud of the Navy. I got ZERO Army history in basic training in 1994. I know nothing about the Army such as when it was officially founded or great events in the past or anything at all for that matter. I was infinitely more proud of the Navy as a Sea Cadet than I was of the Army as an actual soldier. Don't get me wrong, I am proud to have served and I believe that the Army has many redeeming qualities, but it's just not taught. Ask any Marine the birthday of the Marines, ask any sailor for a quote from a famous sailor or tide turning battle, (sorry I don't know anything comparable for the Air Force), and you get the answer you're looking for. Ask a soldier something from Army history and you get crickets--*chirp chirp*. The Army needs to spend quality time in basic training teaching the soldiers Army history and Army pride. Along with that, those who can't grasp that concept simply need to be kicked to the curb.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2021 8:10 PM

2021-01-22T20:10:34-05:00

Its called poor leadership.

Response by COL Robert Gilbert made Jan 29 at 2021 2:23 PM

2021-01-29T14:23:04-05:00

My personal opinion is based on my 34 years in the Army (both enlisted time and officer). I came in when the Army was transitioning to the all volunteer Army. During my years I have seen a reduction in respect for NCOs and officers. The Army is catering to the Generational wants of new recruits (both enlisted and officer), this is especially true in the last couple of years, with the new (still not official) PT test and the reins being pulled back on Drill Sgts. When I was in basic training (1977), the main goal was to turn civilians into future soldiers, by pushing the trainees to the limit mentally and physically. The outcome of Basic was having a trainee, who understood the chain of command and was ready for training in their MOS. This is not the case today.

Response by MSG Frederick Otero made Feb 1 at 2021 2:11 PM

2021-02-01T14:11:40-05:00

Maybe a look is needed at how basic training is being conducted in the army.

Response by CW5 Mark Smith made Feb 8 at 2021 11:04 AM

2021-02-08T11:04:51-05:00

I began my career in the Marine Corps and later joined the Army. The difference in discipline begins when you stand on those yellow footprints upon arrival to Marine boot camp. Pride and discipline is instilled relentlessly. It never stops. One of the reasons I left the Marine Corps was the feeling of "endless bootcamp". There is a price to pay for the stric discipline.....it gets old! On the other hand, lack of discipline leads to chaos. I suppose there is a happy medium somewhere but I'm not certain where it lies. I would chafe at times when called "Chief". It was was rendered so nonchalantly. If I called a Marine WO "Gunner", I'd better know him well or all H would break loose. Same applied for "Gunney" for a Gunnery Sergeant. You'd think a salute or a "Sir" is implying servitude. If we want discipline and respect we have to instill it in basic training and continue it at the unit level. However, the respect has to go both ways. If a Soldier doesn't feel mutual respect and know we have his 6, we can't expect his in return.

Response by SFC Franky Hicks made Feb 11 at 2021 10:48 AM

2021-02-11T10:48:08-05:00

There are numerous ideals, however you must select a suitable decision to deal with the soldier. Back in the days we were taught as young corporal through to the highest rank how to use your ability to motivate a soldier in anyway shape of form. Even as Drill Sergeants we taught how to deal with soldier at each level. You also must train your younger NCO's on how to deal with smart mouth by applying special details for them to learn to control their mouth. Not all the time are Article 15's and extra duty is going to work . It must be able to use some type of psychology in order to get the soldier attention and maintain that as long as that soldier is assigned to your platoon or section. A lot of these kids have bad home training at home or was raised by their mother's, due to father 's were nowhere around to raised them as gentlemen. At last counseling once every 30 or 10 days shall be use to show the soldier behavior improvements.

Response by SGT Frank Fulcher made Feb 11 at 2021 11:01 AM

2021-02-11T11:01:34-05:00

Social engineering!

Response by SPC Linda Chandler made Feb 19 at 2021 5:39 PM

2021-02-19T17:39:01-05:00

As a civilian worker I have seen a lot of discipline problems a lot of disrespect and a lot of just lotta BS that a lot of the younger military has shown I am not going to classify which branch I see it as a whole. I would not mind talking with you off of here about this if you’d like to see a lot of trainees I work for the military and I wouldn’t mind giving you my opinion which would only be an opinion not a fact but the white but what I see and what I experienced when I was in the army is a total 100° turn around. Let me know if you want to talk

Response by SSG(P) Danielle Birtha made Feb 20 at 2021 1:49 PM

2021-02-20T13:49:58-05:00

hmmm... imo... the Army lost its discipline near the end of Vietnam, when Mommies cried to their Congress that their babies were being treated with disrespect by their Drill Sargents...
Words that insulted and demeaned recruits were banned.
Discipline eroded by whiny BS from people who raised their hands and swore to fight for this Nation...
and expected to not see combat, so discipline meant nothing...
WE HAVE TO BE FRIENDS WITH OUR SUBORDINATES, OR THEY FEEL BAD?
WAR DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THAT.
WAR DESTROYS ALL, REGARDLESS OF FRIENDSHIP.
WAR DEMANDS THAT SOLDIERS WILL HAVE COMBAT DISCIPLINE, OR THEY WILL DIE >(

Until Desert Storm... and a friendly enemy attacked U.S. for saving their oil for them... who Thanked U.S. for shoving Hussein back into Iraq... by sending their Princes to attack U.S. with Jumbo Jets... killing over 3000 U.S. CIVILIANS!

What did we do to Japan, when they sneak attacked U.S. killing nearly 3000 people at Pearl Harbor?
WE ANNIHILATED HIROSHMA AND NAGASAKI, AND SAID "TOKYO IS NEXT IF YOU DON'T SURRENDER RIGHT NOW!"
Now that enemy owns our Auto and Electronics Industries... BY LAW.
Enemy Britain owns our Oil, which they spill all over this Nation... BY LAW.
Enemy China owns our clothing, toys, appliances, metals, AND OUR FOOD PROCESSING!!!!
--> YES! OUR ENEMY... CHINA.... OWNS OUR FOOD PROCESSING... AT THE COMMAND OF OUR TRAITOR CONGRESS!
Trump was NOT Impeached for Colluding with Russia... if you watched, you know the Dems SCREAMED WITH HIGH DRAMA, that CHINA IS THE ENEMY! RUSSIA IS THE ENEMY! NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW! WE'RE AFRAID TRUMP WILL HELP CHINA!!
--> Reality Check: Trump was refusing to help China, by refusing to sign the Trade Deal that now gives China OUR DAIRY PRODUCTS... BY LAW... and we the people now drink CHINESE WATER BUFFALO MILK... While China's children now enjoy our Dairy Cow Milk >(
The Invaders, that our public servants claim are "non-legal aliens", now own our Fast Food Restaurants, and poison U.S. daily with their hate for all things U.S. ... as they enjoy all the blessings of our Liberty... AS INVADERS... BY LAW >(
--> "non-legal" alien = ILLEGAL... CRIMINAL... INVADER.

Now... we love our enemies, and protect them with OUR LIVES?

... and we retaliated against the Saudi King's Sons who sneak attacked U.S. on 9/11/2001 by... PROTECTING THEM FROM U.S.???

ROTFLMAO...
DISCIPLINE IS GONE, UNTIL YOU THE SOLDIERS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA CHOOSE TO PROTECT U.S. FROM OUR ENEMIES... INSTEAD OF GETTING ON YOUR KNEES TO THEM >(
--> THE FIRST ENEMY THAT NEEDS TO BE PUNISHED IS:
THE 6000 PUBLIC SERVANTS OF THE U.S. WHO ARE LEGISLATING FOR, AND ADHERING TO...
--> EVERY ENEMY IN U.S. HISTORY >(

There can be no discipline until the "entitled" generation comes to the understanding they are entitled to be SLAVES... IF THEY DON'T WORK TO PRESERVE THEIR FREEDOM, AND COUNTRY ... WITH THEIR LIVES IF NECESSARY!

Right now... with the Democratic National Socialist Fascist Dictator Party in control of the U.S. ...
I do believe we have already lost, and only our Military can resolve that.

But you choose to whine, instead of fighting for OUR FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY...
SAD.
We are Conquered, just as Khrushchev promised... FROM WITHIN... WITHOUT A SHOT BEING FIRED!

Discipline? There will be no discipline until the conquerors declare themselves to be the Law of the U.S. and the whips start falling on your backs... AND THOSE WHO DO NOT FALL TO THEIR KNEES AND WORSHIP THEIR RULERS... WILL DIE... disciplined with the whips of RULERS.
Then you will realize why discipline and loyalty are required of all soldiers who fight for freedom.

All will ignore this, or hate me for this Truth...
I don't care... I have only one fight left to fight... my death from old age... I WILL lose.
It's your lives now... not mine...
YOU ARE YOUNG... LIVE IN FREEDOM... OR OPPRESSION???
MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICES...
BUT CHOOSE WISELY!!!

Response by LCDR Jerry Maurer made Feb 28 at 2021 8:50 PM

2021-02-28T20:50:48-05:00

Respectfully, all branches have this problem. Served in the army and navy, and people just haven't been prepared to follow orders. You have to insist and remind them of the nuclear option, obey my orders or you will go to jail. Worked for me!

Response by SSG Bobby Richardson made Mar 2 at 2021 4:33 PM

2021-03-02T16:33:10-05:00

<--- Active '74-'85
Lack of discipline has a number of causes; one of which is the overall 'culture' within a command structure. When I enlisted with the Army Security Agency (ASA) in '74 I spent a year stateside going to school (AIT), where everyone adhered to uniform dress code; often with varying levels of success, but at least the effort was made.

At my first posting however, a West German border site, an entirely different standard applied; uniforms were soft because nobody ironed or starched a uniform; boots looked like rawhide because shoe polish was unheard-of; men had hair on their collars & week-old 5 o'clock shadows, and women had ponytails or braids down between their shoulder blades; "respect" was accorded based upon how well one did one's job, regardless of rank. I should note that at the time the Army had two career paths - NCO, and Specialist. It was not unusual to see a Specialist/E7. NCO track had specific 'command authority', while Specialists were more 'technicians', with much less emphasis on command. The overall structure of the ASA was that the Army paid us, but the NSA told us where to go and had operational control. Most civilians at the time didn't give two farts about 'military discipline'; consequently, neither did we.

After a break in service, I rejoined what had become the Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM) which had undergone a major shift in culture because everyone had been "brought back into the fold" of military structure.

Another degradation of military discipline stems from being promoted to supervisory positions without the personal experience of dealing with infractions. Rather than discipline the rule-breaker, the newly-minted NCO would try to just ignore the infraction. Other soldiers in the platoon would see this example and loosen their own personal standards. Even worse, other soldiers - when promoted - would let this example inform/guide their interactions with their own subordinates.

Response by PO2 Dan Burke made Mar 8 at 2021 2:59 PM

2021-03-08T14:59:54-05:00

I guess I am a dinosaur. Thanks to COVID-19, I just spent 11 months at Pearl Harbor babysitting my grand daughter for my active duty daughter. I think discipline is both better and worse in the military than my day. We were perpetually politically incorrect when compared to civilian standards and firm believers in the 3rd paragraph of Naval Regulations. (Thiese regulations are meant as a guide. You may deviate at your own peril) As an LPO, my daughter's greatest challenge is to avoid offending her subordinates. Currently, there appears to be two channels of military discipline with the UCMJ being superceded by command SOP/regulations rather than being paramount. My daughter was continually facing conflict with a peer who would stop at nothing to make her look bad. When I told her to request mast, she said it would never be "approved". I was amazed a request mast could be disapproved. In my day, disapproval was not an option. When I told her to write up her adversary for conduct unbecoming for lying about situations to have my daughter counter manded, conduct unbecoming was a foreign concept to her.

Response by CWO3 Robert Fong made Mar 21 at 2021 9:23 AM

2021-03-21T09:23:58-04:00

Top, here is where discipline starts and that is at home when a child is a toddler. Responsibiliity is handed to them in Elementary School age a little at a time with increasing intensity. Jr High is "no excuse" time and high school is here are the requirements and this is what happens when you don't meet that requirement. When young people grow up understanding that when parents ask their children to do something that is not a wish, that's an order. When my daughter used to ask why she could not or had to do something her Mother's reply was, "'Cause I'm the Mother, that's why." Love and adore your kids but understand they are not your "drinking buddies", you are the PARENT. Your job is to teach them to survive. Watch the animals with their young and you'll get a good lesson in parenting. While they are youung is to make them understand what "penalties" are about. Your job Top is to square them away otherwise you'll be visiting them in jail or they become misfits in society much less the military. You run the Company, take no crap from anyone and let the folks know what the rules are PERIOD and what the consequences are for stepping over the line. When I was a young E-Nobody I thoght my Chief walked on the water, talked to God and had coffee with Him. Giving The Chief a ration of do-do was bad ju-ju. My Dad a retired MSGT squared me away, no excuses. So parents need to do the same thing. Babies when they are born only know two things and they are, "I'm cold and I'm hungry" the rest they learn from us. Unfortunately Top, we wind up being the surrogate Mommies and Daddies 'cause their parents would not take responsibility for their creation.

Response by SGT Tomas Lopez made Mar 25 at 2021 9:40 PM

2021-03-25T21:40:24-04:00

I would say it is because of the government getting involved with what we do as soldiers and not letting us run the Army the way we were taught to run it.

Response by SGT Tomas Lopez made Mar 25 at 2021 9:42 PM

2021-03-25T21:42:10-04:00

I would say it is because the Government getting involved with the way we run the Army, which is the way we were taught by the ones before us and the ones before them and so on.

Response by SGT Frank-John Limiero made Mar 28 at 2021 1:17 PM

2021-03-28T13:17:51-04:00

The lack of respect comes before these individuals join the military. Many don't do it for "God and Country" but rather a good paying job with plenty of entitlement benefits. Today's military culture has changed from what it was; simple changes like discipline, mixed genders, physical demands, active homosexuals, even KP duty. Compare nobodies lack of respect with Combat Veterans, you'll see a big difference.

Response by MSG Kenny Lane made Mar 28 at 2021 8:33 PM

2021-03-28T20:33:39-04:00

The Army has gone soft in my opinion. You have to be so concerned about their feelings , that what you say can be misunderstood and you end up on the carpet talking to the old man because you swore at some troop. The basic training I believe has not done us any justice. I as an E-8 had a E-2 fresh out of AIT , STAND AND TALK TO WITH HER HANDS IN HER POCKETS.....WTF IS THIS ...SERIOUSLY.

Response by CPT Kenneth Rankin made Apr 4 at 2021 2:47 PM

2021-04-04T14:47:43-04:00

The lack of discipline is rampant, across our society, along with a lack of respect. We have corrupted everything in life and thrown away guiding principles... Religion, morals and ethics. Our children don't say the pledge of allegiance in schools, Religion is frowned upon and in decline...even our founding documents are looked at as archaic pieces of paper which are supposed to be considered changeable. America is on the decline like the many great states of the past, such as Rome before her. Soon it will be but a memory and what replaces it will only be created by death and bloodshed...Only then will people realize that they squandered and killed a perfect union. Perhaps they will finally learn what our history teachers once taught us..."Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat history.!"

Response by TSgt James Warfield made Apr 5 at 2021 9:22 PM

2021-04-05T21:22:50-04:00

I truly believe that it's happening in all branches. They old saying is that the military is a good indicator of the broad section of our country and how we behave.
Marines do have a stronger more disciplinary regiment. However look back 5, 10 years ago and I think even you will see even the Marines aren't as discipline as they once were.
With the woke culture. the PC movement, and trying to please everyone, the military is going to feel it. I saw in my time from 1970's to 1990's , bar kept getting lowered to appease those who were at fringe of the PC and Woke movement. Now 30 years later is worse then ever.
However you did get it right it does have a lot to do with discipline. I cringe many times when I read post from young soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines. One can see, the entitlement that just seems to ooze out the comments on RP.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Apr 6 at 2021 12:27 AM

2021-04-06T00:27:49-04:00

We're too busy managing their feelings.

Response by SSG Donald Donnie Foerch Jr. made Apr 7 at 2021 11:51 AM

2021-04-07T11:51:44-04:00

I was a Reservist on active duty from Sept. 25th 2001-October 2003. I had a pvt call me “Dog” I saw privates and specialist totally disrespectful to an NCO when I asked the NCO why he didn’t jump on his ass he said it doesn’t matter his command doesn’t care and won’t do anything anyway.

Response by SPC Chris Ison made Apr 9 at 2021 1:58 PM

2021-04-09T13:58:20-04:00

You know what you did not say? What kind of unit it was.

This shit doesn't fly in line companies.

But in Aviation, Medical, and Intelligence it does.

In aviation it is because of the relationship between the aircrew and maintenance, you piss mechanic off and you die.

In medical it is because the officers are not combat oriented and the relationship between the enlisted is very close.

In intelligence it is, generally, because the enlisted have more responsibility than an infantryman.

Response by Cpl Ernest Thomas made Apr 17 at 2021 10:05 PM

2021-04-17T22:05:34-04:00

From someone that was both Marine and a Soldier. In the Corps we are the best in the world. In the Army (beit active, reserve, NG), it's a joke! I watched Army Staff NCO's act like 6th graders, have complete disregard for the soldiers well being under them and yet demand respect while acting like a child themselves. How are young troops supposed to have any respect for their leadership when the leadership has zero discipline themselves?

Response by Cpl Jeff Ruffing made Apr 17 at 2021 11:37 PM

2021-04-17T23:37:26-04:00

First off, in my humble opinion, being thru both services and both basic and boot camp. The Army tended to be more compassionate and understanding to whiners and complainers. I went in the Army Basic training in my Jr year of high school on a split option program. I then separated from the USANG into the Marines in my Senior year and did boot camp after I graduated. Wow! What a freakin wake up call. You really learn who is God and you don’t disrespect God, cause God can make your life hell. Not to mention, your fellow recruits can make your life hell just as easy. So, you learn discipline. Now, that being said, the Army Grunts, Rangers, Green Beanies, and the D boys are a different breed and show more Lock and Cock than the other MOS individuals. Let’s not forget the Combat Arms units like Arty and Tankers. They also have the same mentality. Sadly, in the Combat Arms section you have sh@thirds just like the Marines. The Marines tend to deal with the Sh@tbirds faster.

Response by SFC James Corona made Apr 30 at 2021 10:49 PM

2021-04-30T22:49:58-04:00

Weak Chain of Command without high standard value support.

Response by Capt Robert Vincelette made May 1 at 2021 2:26 PM

2021-05-01T14:26:52-04:00

I was in the military back n the 1970's and have not seen this unfortunate cultural decline in America, but I saw it coming. Recruiting commercials targeted less disciplined market researched pop culture fans to make recruiting quotas.
But I did not see how far it would go till I years later I earned my PhD and taught at two universities. Freshmen students who must have cheated they way high school math came to university unable to do 6th grade arithmetic, especially adding or subtracting fractions. In class they always come late and in class they exchange text messages rather than take notes and wait till the last day to do their homework and prepare for their final exams. When they fail they try to negotiate for a passing grade.
I think this decline in culture affects the military too.

Response by SGT Mustafa Stokely made May 3 at 2021 11:43 PM

2021-05-03T23:43:07-04:00

If I had to hazard a guess, such disrespect is more likely to occur in places like Afghanistan, rather than other, non-combat areas. I've not looked for any peer-reviewed studies, etc., and this is simply my own opinion on the matter. (Similar things occurred during the Vietnam War...)

Response by SPC Ryan Vanlaanengregory made May 11 at 2021 10:29 PM

2021-05-11T22:29:38-04:00

Could possibly come from 20+ years of toxic leadership on all levels that's run unchecked because of constant rotations. Even though the ARMY knows it's there, that it's costing them billions in attrition rates. They make the minimal effort to deal with it. How can you have respect for leadership that's constantly unchecked with known sexual assaults, domestic violence, substance abuse issues, etc...

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jun 4 at 2021 6:56 PM

2021-06-04T18:56:14-04:00

For the same reason all the other branches do. We recruit children off the streets before their brains have even finished developing (human brain doesn't finish developing until approximately age 25).
From a biological standpoint, the bulk of the armed forces are cognitively impaired.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 4 at 2021 10:56 PM

2021-06-04T22:56:59-04:00

What does lack of respect mean?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2021 3:05 AM

2021-06-05T03:05:51-04:00

Simple there is a problem in leadership.

Response by SSG Bill McCoy made Jun 5 at 2021 4:38 PM

2021-06-05T16:38:56-04:00

Capt Wilford, I think it's as much the result of how the current generation of (many; perhaps even most) soldiers today were raised. Same old stuff --- tropies for LOSING; advancing through elementary and high school regardless of grades, etc. I had a principal tell me once during a Sheriiff's drug orienttion program for parents, "Our primary mob is to get these kids, THROUGH the system and OUT of school." She was dead serious, and I looked at her and bluntly stated, "Obviously EDUCATION isn't in your sylabus or your goals!" Fortunately, she only lasted ONE school year.
Recruits for many years now are pushed trough BCT and their MOS schools the same way. I once had a PV2 who was actually ILLITERATE ... every report he would write was spelled phonetically - such as:
Laceration was lassarashun, etc. When I had his partner re-write the DD Form 2823 with a Q&A format, when the kid signed it, he had to take his ID card out and copy his signature by DRAWING it! I asked how he signed the ID and he said, "My Drill Sergeant did it." We eventually got him chaptered out, but he's an example of how some instructors FAIL THE ARMY and also the Recruits.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Jun 5 at 2021 5:20 PM

2021-06-05T17:20:20-04:00

You wouldn’t have lasted a week in the Draftee Army. I was often an 18 year old, non high school graduate, Sergeant with a platoon of 23-24 year olds with some college. Yelling only made you look silly. The idea was to keep them focused on the mission, they wanted to get done as much as I did

Response by SPC Edward Abney made Jun 5 at 2021 7:21 PM

2021-06-05T19:21:08-04:00

I would have thought that the "All Volunteer Army" would not have the lack of discipline and respect that seems to be a real problem these days. Is it possible that recruiting standards have been lowered too much? Is it possible that this problem is shared by NCO's and Jr. enlisted?

Response by Cpl Vic Burk made Jun 5 at 2021 8:54 PM

2021-06-05T20:54:35-04:00

I think some of it is the fact that the majority of the lower enlisted ranks are young and immature still. They are testing the waters to see what they can get away with often. The Marines seemed to me to have much stricter expectations of the character of our branch. Yes, we also had some screw offs that needed a lesson or two (sometimes more) to get their act together. It didn't always work and after a while of dealing with them they were given an undesirable discharge. That was a last resort when nothing else really worked.

Response by SFC Philip Ogden made Jun 7 at 2021 1:37 PM

2021-06-07T13:37:57-04:00

Discipline in the Army. First you must gain respect. Once you gain their respect. Then the Soldiers will have more discipline. If the Soldiers don't like you then they will not have Discipline. Discipline comes with the morale of the United. If you have a chain of command that doesn't care about the troops. The morale is down which deals with discipline.

Response by SGT Larry Holland made Jul 13 at 2021 1:34 PM

2021-07-13T13:34:35-04:00

Too many parents run to protect their baby, by calling their Congress members who run down there to pit someone in their place instead of telling the parents that their baby is an adult & their adult child decided to join the Army (in this case) & tell need to go sit down somewhere. It doesn't help when politicians want to play games with the military either.

Response by Todd Rasmussen made Jul 14 at 2021 2:37 PM

2021-07-14T14:37:40-04:00

While this may be an Army wide phenomenon, I have seen it manifest itself in society as a whole as a lack of respect. I am a retired teacher, and a couple of years ago, I had a mother come to me and tell me in no uncertain terms that HER son would not call me sir. I was shocked. If I had not called a teacher sir or ma'm, my 1st Sgt dad might not have let me see the next morning.

Response by SSgt James Mathews made Jul 17 at 2021 11:46 PM

2021-07-17T23:46:38-04:00

I have said this so many times in the last few years and I will tell my story again. Fort Knox October 1959, 1 AM. The buss from Cleveland pulls up to the reception center and stops. The first voice we heard was someone in a deep authoritative voice telling us to get off the buss and line up. This is as I said took place at 1 AM and by eight the next morning one had his identity taken and the start of someone new. Sgt Arnett and Sgt Sparrow drilled us in self-respect and respect for our country and others. The eight weeks were hard but at the end of Basic training we had great respect for our leaders and the service. I know the training was about the same for all branches of service because in 1961 I went into the Air Force and started that at Lackland AFB in Texas. I had great respect for my country, the military and the leaders I served under. The problem now is a drill instructor almost has to say please to get someone to do something. Anytime you give someone an order the first consideration is will the recipient like the command and does it somehow infringe on their rights. I think everyone should watch the first part of "Full Metal Jacket" and see what they think of that. that is what I went through and I owe my lift to my country and the military way at that time.
I was a Wind child out of Clevelant Ohio and because of the Military I went on the become a Commercial Pilot, an Electrical Engineer and worked in law enforcement. Thank you America and all of the people of the military. Fort Knox to Fort Jackson to Lackland to Amerillo to Moody to Robins AFB.

Response by SGT John Ball made Jul 20 at 2021 11:12 AM

2021-07-20T11:12:08-04:00

That is one of the reasons I decided to move on after 10 years. Command was making it impossible for us NCO's to really discipline or utilize corrective training to get the attention of a wayward Joe. Heck, I even got wrote up by my commander for raising my voice to one of my troops. I joined in 1987 and was very impressed by my Drills, their know how, love of their profession, but they were strict disciplinarians. But, I became a better man for it and am a good man today because of it. In the mid 90's, discipline started to slip and we got troops who talked back and such. So, I cut bait and got a good civilian career instead. I know, I had 10 years in, but finished my 20 in the National Guard.

Response by SPC Chris Ison made Jul 25 at 2021 3:16 PM

2021-07-25T15:16:17-04:00

Your perception of the situation is wrong. The army has actual people who are being trained to think for themselves, and the marine corps has a bunch of fanatics running around trying to be the ultimate marine.

Furthermore, if you were interacting with reservists and National Guardsmen, then you were dealing with a completely different set of people.

I was specialist in my unit, I had a master's degree in Public Administration, and I supervised 5 employees, who were professional planners. When I worked retail going through University, i ran a store with 30 employees. That means as a specialist, I had more managerial experience and direct leadership experience than my Platoon Sergeant who was a Correctional Officer in a prison, with no supervisory role. My platoon leader was fresh out of Officer Basic Course, and was some type of set designer for the film industry, and he literally did not know shit about being on active duty, let alone anything about how to run a scout platoon.

And MY BN Co? his active duty time consisted of making 3rd class as an HM int he Navy, and then spending the rest of his time as some type of AGR administrator for the counter drug operations. My BN XO was a PFC in the Marine Corps before getting his commission, and my fucking company commander had been in the guard so long he had a federal commission with an ASSOCIATES DEGREE, after, wait for it... serving in the Marine Corps as a PFC.

We as enlisted men ran our unit, because the officers were worthless, and in many situations the NCO's were too.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2021 4:06 AM

2021-08-04T04:06:11-04:00

Causes:
Woke
Cancel culture
LGBTQ+............
CRT
Inclusiveness

Response by SSG Eric Blue made Aug 9 at 2021 12:28 PM

2021-08-09T12:28:10-04:00

I think I answered this one already. But in case I didn't, it definitely isn't limited to the junior enlisted. Lack of discipline exists within ALL of the Army populations. I want to say it's the trickle-down effect where Joe or Jane see their leaders do the wrong thing and not face the repercussions of doing the wrong thing or how junior leaders see senior leaders do that same kind of thing and not be held responsible, yet these junior leaders are expected to teach Joe & Jane to "do the right thing" and they respond with something like, "well SFC, 1SG, SGM, LT, CPT, MAJ, or COL so and so did this or that. So why can't do it, too?" It happened a lot during my career.

Response by COL Bill Gross made Aug 22 at 2021 6:53 PM

2021-08-22T18:53:15-04:00

Individual observations don't add up to a picture of the Army as a totaled. The old expression, exceptional claims require exceptional proofs. To say the Army is going to hell in a hand basket does require some rigorous proof. How you get it is another can of worms.

Response by PVT J Leonard made Aug 26 at 2021 11:18 PM

2021-08-26T23:18:41-04:00

Bit ironic. The one time I got into major trouble was disrespecting a corporal. At the time, the standard to be promoted to corporal at that post, and some said Army wide, was to be infantry, any of the infantry specialties. There were some that were other MOS's, and I was put underneath one. The unit was winding down, as the specialty, HAWK missile batteries, were being discontinued in favor of Patriots. The corporal in question was always giving orders, never followed up or followed through, just reporting to cadre that were working on removing me from the Army(another problem). I was sent out on the last field exercise to use the HAWKs, and was responsible for bring certain requested equipment for the exercise. The corporal was given the request, took it to other cadre, and came back with a different list, less than half of what had been requested for the exercise. I went to the senior NCO I would be reporting to regarding what had been authorized, and no one would return or respond to phone calls. I ended up working directly with my supply sergeant, E-6, who authorized the original request and allowed me to take the equipment. Long story short, come back from exercise to be told I will face charges of theft and misappropriation of government equipment, and no one in the chain of command will assist me in getting said equipment returned to field ready in my allotted 72 hours. Parts that had been donated to get this unit up to speed by me, were requested back if not needed, and low and behold, said corporal suddenly shows up to start yelling about adding even more charges if I return the needed equipment. He threatened me with an a$$ whipping, I told him to bring it on. I lost rank as that chain decided to hold to the letter of all forms of punishment they could meet out over the next two weeks. Yes, I should have not played the game, understood it for the set up that it was. Not my proudest moment in the Army. Sadly, I saw this at all levels of rank, junior through officer, and some dont ever take to heart the responsibility and commitment they are getting themself into, and dont adapt.

Response by SSG James Mielke made Aug 27 at 2021 11:15 AM

2021-08-27T11:15:14-04:00

This has been a growing problem for the Active Army since at least '01 and is practically a disease in the Reserves and Nat Guard units.
This all started around 2000/01, the Liberal parent sorts were all worried about training cadres hazing, over-stressing, and emotionally abusing their poor, sweet babies during Basic, airborne, and other schools. In response the Army adopted 'stress cards' for the little darlings going through Basic. These cards were like mood rings; whiny kid puts his/her thumb on the designated area of the card and it turns a certain color based on whatever it was those things "detect". If it turned a certain color, then whiny kid was stressed and drill cadre were no longer allowed do their jobs until the card indicated the kid was no longer being stressed.
(You can probably hear the eye-rolling I am doing)
I am not sure if these cards were used in other training scenarios, like airborne school but I watched a few news articles at the time about airborne qualification badges no longer being blood pinned as had been the tradition because it had upset some parents, who deemed it as hazing.

In Reserve and NG units, the discipline problems stem largely from too much familiarity within the units and the "Good Ol' Boy" syndrome.
It is a literal possibility to become the Top NCO (1SG or CSM) and never, ever leave the unit. Officers get shuffled around a bit more but it is still possible to end up in command of the unit you started as a 2nd Lt. in and still know every senior NCO when you take command as a Capt. or Lt. Col.
Fraternization and the use of first names between all ranks of Enlisted and Officers is very common.
I have also seen 'legacies' join Reserve and NG units; units where fathers and/or grandfathers had been a part of and likely retired from the unit, a good portion of the unit watched these kids grow up.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2021 1:21 PM

2021-09-05T13:21:53-04:00

For a long time coming, these young enlistees feel entitled, you can’t touch them and are filled with cockiness because it’s become so hard to discipline them. For years even long after my retirement, service members out in public do not have the respect they had for officers, NCOs and veterans. So they get by with things time after time with no consequences for their behaviors. This seem to be carried over from their civilian life. Without discipline, there is no separation of leader and the student.

Response by HN Chris R. made Sep 16 at 2021 7:03 PM

2021-09-16T19:03:43-04:00

Lloyd James Austin III as secretary of Defense is about as weak as General Patton was outspoken while Gen. Milley is so “woke” he has to study his new enemy, the “ANGRY WHITE MAN” as part of his CRT and indoctrination. Not to mention his phone call Democrat influenced phone call to his CCP counterpart to reassure that he would warn them in case president Trump ordered an attack on China. There lies your problem our alleged leaders from dementia Biden to the whole democratic administration weakening our military.

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made Sep 23 at 2021 9:14 AM

2021-09-23T09:14:16-04:00

Once the army introduced stress cards for the recruits, that was the begining. Also, the young soldiers now have this short term mentality, meaning they don't know or even care that their actions will have long term effects on their careers or even their lives.