Posted on Jul 29, 2019
Why does the Army appear to have a discipline issue with the lower enlisted ranks?
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Please understand, I am NOT bagging on the Army here, I am simply asking a question based on my own observations. I served two tours on two different Army posts and witnessed first hand how lower enlisted soldiers (PV1 through SPC) interacted with soldiers of higher rank (CPL through SSG) and I found their lack of respect and lack of discipline to be a bit disturbing. So, my deeper question is this; is this perceived problem of discipline due to the size of the Army as compared to the Marine Corps where we do not have this type of discipline issue, is it due to smaller unit cohesion, or is it something else? I am writing a white paper on military discipline and any information will be helpful. Remember, at the end of the day, we are one military with different missions toward the same end goal, so please do not use this thread as a means to bash other branches of service. I have not done that to the Army; I have great respect for the Army and for its mission and I am simply looking for others' observations about discipline.
Discipline
Enlisted
UCMJ
Edited 6 y ago
Posted 6 y ago
Responses: 255
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I consider myself a very “squared away solider” and i have people of pretty much all ranks that will vouch but sometimes i find myself getting complacent due to the lack of not only “good leadership” but leaders that are what the NCO creed says they should be in general. I’ve whitness soldiers go from HOOAH to shit bag from Lousy leaders that don’t care about their soldiers nor their personal situations, but you do have the occasional knuckle head that was probably doomed from the beginning...
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I was enlisted Army eons ago. My son is an NCO now. He was the first to tell me this is becoming a real problem which the Army is struggling to deal with now. He said for some years now, The DIs and others in training commands are severely limited in the corporal and other physical discipline that used to be part of the expected process of building discipline, pride, respect and esprit de core. Instead they switched to verbal ridicule and humiliation for discipline and it destroys what they are trying instill in the trainees, pride in themselves and their unit and respect for the command. When the boots move from basic on to their permanent duty stations there are lot of complaints from the non-coms and commanders about this exact problem - lack of discipline and respect for command. This is a very real issue and no real resolution on the map yet.
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It's a combination of things that is force wide, not just the Army. The Marines have less of a problem with it due to their smaller size and cohesion. It's a problem that is a perfect storm born of culture, the military being used as a political test tube and leadership not being properly trained, supervised and brought up through the ranks. The pass it on, it will be ok mentality run amok.
The Army is further hampered by the fact that that there is no one standard and that the standard deviates Unit to Unit, MOS to MOS. Frankly the Army needs to hit that reset button, kick loose a lot of this PC and buddy culture and have ONE standard across the board and get back to being an Army rather than a nanny daycare.
The Army is further hampered by the fact that that there is no one standard and that the standard deviates Unit to Unit, MOS to MOS. Frankly the Army needs to hit that reset button, kick loose a lot of this PC and buddy culture and have ONE standard across the board and get back to being an Army rather than a nanny daycare.
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Believe me, when I was USAF, I occasionally saw some similar stuff myself, albeit relatively rarely...honestly, I think all svcs probably have similar problems...I only saw such things a few times, of course, not on any sort of constant basis...I also occasionally saw such stuff in other svcs, as well, though, once again, only very rarely, certainly....
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I don't believe there is a single factor, but I'd argue that my Soldiers in every unit I served were no less disciplined than any service member. I believe discipline is dependent on the leader, not the branch.
It would be interesting to see a comparison of NJP by branch, but I doubt it be broken down by article of UCMJ violated.
If there is a difference, other than perceived, I'd lean to the towards the pre-enlistment perception of the recruit, and size of that branch. I'd add the drive of Marine NCOs to maintain that perception/ reputation.
A good source would be those who served in both.
It would be interesting to see a comparison of NJP by branch, but I doubt it be broken down by article of UCMJ violated.
If there is a difference, other than perceived, I'd lean to the towards the pre-enlistment perception of the recruit, and size of that branch. I'd add the drive of Marine NCOs to maintain that perception/ reputation.
A good source would be those who served in both.
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Sgt John de Nugent
I was in both the Marines and the Army, and infantry at that.
The Russians and Chinese have IRON discipline. Mark my words.
The Russians and Chinese have IRON discipline. Mark my words.
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I see it more outside of combat arms. It starts at basic and AIT. It may be the failure of the DS and instructors for not maintaining and upholding the standard. But you are correct. The Army has a discipline problem and it's much more abundant in non-combat arms MOSs.
If you are writing a paper I doubt anything on RP will be valid enough to give you good info. Just a bunch of individual experiences. I'd have to imagine there's so good literature out there in military-oriented databases that can give you some insight into the issue. Hopefully based on a larger population sample.
If you are writing a paper I doubt anything on RP will be valid enough to give you good info. Just a bunch of individual experiences. I'd have to imagine there's so good literature out there in military-oriented databases that can give you some insight into the issue. Hopefully based on a larger population sample.
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CPT(P) (Join to see)
I used the terms "military" and "discipline" and "culture" and received numerous hits on peer-reviewed articles that could help you in this topic. If you don't have access to a database send me your email and I can send you some of the articles I found.
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Capt Michael Wilford
Great follow up, LT., thanks! I will definitely use these keywords. I have access to a few great databases. For this exercise, the qualitative piece here in RP is helpful as I am getting a diverse set of responses.
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MSG Michael Gay
I served as an NCO all but 9 months of my service. 4 years active and 22 Reserve. I served from 1968 to 1994. I was promoted in 1974 to E-8 with only 6 years total service. Infantry duty, Combat Infantry duty (CIB), NCO Academy, Drill Sergeant Academy, and Drill Sergeant duty in four years of active duty. I never heard a Drill Sergeant refer to his peers as anything but Drill Sergeant. Leadership is the key! Always show respect to those appointed over your position. Always respect the rank of others. Never call soldiers by their first name. Is the term soldier when referring to any soldier. Respect the rank of all soldiers. A PFC should be respected as having EARNED the rank. Respect technical and tactical proficiency. I have know some of the very best and most decorated soldiers that ever served. LTC. Hackworth showed great respect to any warrior that was a leader. He truly respected an E-5 Sergeant, First Lieutenant, Captain equally. He loved his men and soon all of them respected then loved him. He turned one of the worst Infantry Battalions into the best in Vietnam. He was the most decorated Soldier at in the Army. He had eight Purple Hearts and multiples of each of the valor awards, except the Medal of Honor. He was wounded as an O-5 at least once. Respect worked both was for him. Expect great leadership, show great leadership. Praise in formation, criticism should only be done privately. Alway be available and approachable to your subordinates. Senior NCOs are the real key to respect. Much of the formality should be eliminated in actual combat units in combat areas. In those areas, leaders should treat their troops as a rope. You can pull a rope but not push it. LEAD!
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That is one of the reasons I decided to move on after 10 years. Command was making it impossible for us NCO's to really discipline or utilize corrective training to get the attention of a wayward Joe. Heck, I even got wrote up by my commander for raising my voice to one of my troops. I joined in 1987 and was very impressed by my Drills, their know how, love of their profession, but they were strict disciplinarians. But, I became a better man for it and am a good man today because of it. In the mid 90's, discipline started to slip and we got troops who talked back and such. So, I cut bait and got a good civilian career instead. I know, I had 10 years in, but finished my 20 in the National Guard.
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I have said this so many times in the last few years and I will tell my story again. Fort Knox October 1959, 1 AM. The buss from Cleveland pulls up to the reception center and stops. The first voice we heard was someone in a deep authoritative voice telling us to get off the buss and line up. This is as I said took place at 1 AM and by eight the next morning one had his identity taken and the start of someone new. Sgt Arnett and Sgt Sparrow drilled us in self-respect and respect for our country and others. The eight weeks were hard but at the end of Basic training we had great respect for our leaders and the service. I know the training was about the same for all branches of service because in 1961 I went into the Air Force and started that at Lackland AFB in Texas. I had great respect for my country, the military and the leaders I served under. The problem now is a drill instructor almost has to say please to get someone to do something. Anytime you give someone an order the first consideration is will the recipient like the command and does it somehow infringe on their rights. I think everyone should watch the first part of "Full Metal Jacket" and see what they think of that. that is what I went through and I owe my lift to my country and the military way at that time.
I was a Wind child out of Clevelant Ohio and because of the Military I went on the become a Commercial Pilot, an Electrical Engineer and worked in law enforcement. Thank you America and all of the people of the military. Fort Knox to Fort Jackson to Lackland to Amerillo to Moody to Robins AFB.
I was a Wind child out of Clevelant Ohio and because of the Military I went on the become a Commercial Pilot, an Electrical Engineer and worked in law enforcement. Thank you America and all of the people of the military. Fort Knox to Fort Jackson to Lackland to Amerillo to Moody to Robins AFB.
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First off, in my humble opinion, being thru both services and both basic and boot camp. The Army tended to be more compassionate and understanding to whiners and complainers. I went in the Army Basic training in my Jr year of high school on a split option program. I then separated from the USANG into the Marines in my Senior year and did boot camp after I graduated. Wow! What a freakin wake up call. You really learn who is God and you don’t disrespect God, cause God can make your life hell. Not to mention, your fellow recruits can make your life hell just as easy. So, you learn discipline. Now, that being said, the Army Grunts, Rangers, Green Beanies, and the D boys are a different breed and show more Lock and Cock than the other MOS individuals. Let’s not forget the Combat Arms units like Arty and Tankers. They also have the same mentality. Sadly, in the Combat Arms section you have sh@thirds just like the Marines. The Marines tend to deal with the Sh@tbirds faster.
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I truly believe that it's happening in all branches. They old saying is that the military is a good indicator of the broad section of our country and how we behave.
Marines do have a stronger more disciplinary regiment. However look back 5, 10 years ago and I think even you will see even the Marines aren't as discipline as they once were.
With the woke culture. the PC movement, and trying to please everyone, the military is going to feel it. I saw in my time from 1970's to 1990's , bar kept getting lowered to appease those who were at fringe of the PC and Woke movement. Now 30 years later is worse then ever.
However you did get it right it does have a lot to do with discipline. I cringe many times when I read post from young soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines. One can see, the entitlement that just seems to ooze out the comments on RP.
Marines do have a stronger more disciplinary regiment. However look back 5, 10 years ago and I think even you will see even the Marines aren't as discipline as they once were.
With the woke culture. the PC movement, and trying to please everyone, the military is going to feel it. I saw in my time from 1970's to 1990's , bar kept getting lowered to appease those who were at fringe of the PC and Woke movement. Now 30 years later is worse then ever.
However you did get it right it does have a lot to do with discipline. I cringe many times when I read post from young soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines. One can see, the entitlement that just seems to ooze out the comments on RP.
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The lack of discipline is rampant, across our society, along with a lack of respect. We have corrupted everything in life and thrown away guiding principles... Religion, morals and ethics. Our children don't say the pledge of allegiance in schools, Religion is frowned upon and in decline...even our founding documents are looked at as archaic pieces of paper which are supposed to be considered changeable. America is on the decline like the many great states of the past, such as Rome before her. Soon it will be but a memory and what replaces it will only be created by death and bloodshed...Only then will people realize that they squandered and killed a perfect union. Perhaps they will finally learn what our history teachers once taught us..."Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat history.!"
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I would say it is because the Government getting involved with the way we run the Army, which is the way we were taught by the ones before us and the ones before them and so on.
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My personal opinion is based on my 34 years in the Army (both enlisted time and officer). I came in when the Army was transitioning to the all volunteer Army. During my years I have seen a reduction in respect for NCOs and officers. The Army is catering to the Generational wants of new recruits (both enlisted and officer), this is especially true in the last couple of years, with the new (still not official) PT test and the reins being pulled back on Drill Sgts. When I was in basic training (1977), the main goal was to turn civilians into future soldiers, by pushing the trainees to the limit mentally and physically. The outcome of Basic was having a trainee, who understood the chain of command and was ready for training in their MOS. This is not the case today.
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Look at the questions that get posted on here. Young enlisted personal complaining about their rights being abused, making us work Saturday, inspecting my room, telling me how I can dress to travel, the list goes on and on. I don't want to be that cranky old dude, but I mean when I signed the contract, I felt I gave up my free will for the term, today, the kids demand their rights to everything. Don't curse at my boy drill instructor, you might hurt his feelings. Or going from don't ask don't tell, to the military should pay for my sex change. My room mate was gay in 76, we all knew it, we didn't care. He did his job. Now not all units might have been that way, but it was my experience. He was not the first one, nor the first one known, and would not be the last. But now, I am sure you would be concerned about how you talked to a gay soldier, because you could end up having charges brought. Its a different world I guess.
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I believe its more of a brotherhood thing and comroderie thing. When i was lower enlisted i showed my respect in situations that called for it but as a whole we were all brothers in arms and that was more of a show than anything. When i was deployed for operation uphold democracy in Haiti im not sure i ever said yes sargeant or anything of that nature. We were more worried about getting shot by aks at that point. I ultimately ended my tour there for last 90 days driving colnels and higher many times driving certain generals and i hope I maintained my discipline with rank then but when bullets were flying i can promise you i didnt say sir or ma’am. Just a though situation dictates alot
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I believe that the discipline problems in the Army (and all the military services) is a generational one. When I started on Active Duty in the post Vietnam volunteer Army, there were all kinds of problems with discipline, alcohol, drugs etc. I kept very busy as an MP in Germany dragging wayward soldiers to the station or in some cases they went directly to their 1SG. Continuing my service in the Guard, things vastly improved in the 80's and 90's. Discipline suffered again about 3-5 years after 9/11 as the Army lowered standards for enlistment because of the need for manpower. Waivers for law violations, drug use and taking in non HS graduates. As you reap so shall you sow. The recent generations of recruits also come in with an entitlement mentality. The "everyone gets a trophy" mentality. It's not across the board. I agree with the SFC who commented that the more hard charging units like Airborne, Cav, Rangers and outfits such as the USMC have more dedicated soldiers thus less disciplinary problems compared to the general soldier. I've glossed over several topics but you could easily write a book about this issue. Many more factors are at play here involving our society as a whole. Good luck. Hope I've given you some food for thought.
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CPT Wilford, I am willing to bet that neither post was Fort Bragg. I visited Bragg once - stopped a very senior SP4 (I was an E-5 SGT),to ask a question, he went to parade rest, shouted his unit motto and answered my request. I was one of those Army linguist made E-5 in 2 years (and stayed E-5 until I got out 6 years later). Different posts, different commands and different focus on Military Courtesy and discipline.
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This raises the question, is this lack of discipline and increase in discipline issues reflect the society as a whole? I am curious if this problem is common with other civilizations as they declined. It would be very interesting to see if there are any original accounts from the Roman legions, the Spartans, or other legendary fighting forces documenting a similar issues as the society declined.
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Having been Navy and a tour with an Amphibious (FMFPAC), they are numerically smaller than an Army unit. When on a small “warship”... you can fall over. (You don’t piss off people). Having commanded Two Army Basic Training commands and Infantry .... the size of the Army is huge. Go from a Navy/Marine command of hundreds to a Light Division of well over 10,000 and discipline can be a problem... I have personally walked men through their separations and reduced an E-6 to E-3. Also, the lower ranks tend to be just out of High School, and are initiated to alcohol.
Thank you for being honest and admit that we are one fighting force. Personally, I was a smart a__ , and had a Senior Chief and a Gunnery Sergeant “Counsel” me (in a dark passageway). Historically, the Navy and Marines fight each other... but will come together when it matters.... which will be joined by the Army too. Pride runs deep in all branches.
JO3, Buck Sgt., Captain, IN
Thank you for being honest and admit that we are one fighting force. Personally, I was a smart a__ , and had a Senior Chief and a Gunnery Sergeant “Counsel” me (in a dark passageway). Historically, the Navy and Marines fight each other... but will come together when it matters.... which will be joined by the Army too. Pride runs deep in all branches.
JO3, Buck Sgt., Captain, IN
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