Why doesn't the APFT have provisions for injuries incurred during the test?

2015-05-30T16:08:16-04:00

If you are taking an APFT, and roll your ankle during the run, and as a result you run slower to the finish line and fail, should this still count as a failure? I read Chapter 14 of FM 21-20 and the only mention of injuries I could find was that the injury could be annotated in comments box. I feel as thought in this scenario, the APFT test should not be counted against the injured soldier. What are your thoughts?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2015 4:22 PM

2015-05-30T16:22:08-04:00

I'll echo SSG Derrick L. Lewis on that...great question.

Honestly, there should be a provision for that in the FM, but to my knowledge, there is not. I have seen good soldiers that regularly get 270- 300 on the APFT fail because they got hurt during. Next thing you know, they're out with the fatties doing special population PT in the afternoon.

Response by SGT(P) Kenneth Jones made May 30 at 2015 4:36 PM

2015-05-30T16:36:34-04:00

They can count it as a diagnostic but that is up to your chain of command. Also if you were injured during and apft that made you fail they might take that into consideration but once again that is up to your chain of command

Response by SSG Skylur Britz made May 30 at 2015 4:36 PM

2015-05-30T16:36:50-04:00

I've seen this happen before.
Good leadership didn't hold it against the soldier (he averaged 250-270) when he was better he took another APFT.

Not so great leadership threw him (different soldier) under the bus.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made May 30 at 2015 4:39 PM

2015-05-30T16:39:47-04:00

Why would there need to be a "provision"
1: did you pass YES / NO

IF NO
, it matters not why.. There is no action that is different following a kind of fail.. Kind of not pass
All
Follow up actions are based on pass of fail. So what purpose do you see is a fail with astrex Mark

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2015 4:47 PM

2015-05-30T16:47:21-04:00

im all for it. but there will those that abuse it. see, if you are failing the run already, you can magically roll that ankle. I can understand why the MFT wouldn't want to change. also, the FM is no longer. make sure you are looking at the most updated APFT book.

Response by SFC William Farrell made May 30 at 2015 4:51 PM

2015-05-30T16:51:08-04:00

To me it looks like they are making provisions already. When I had to take it we just got down in the sand or the mud or gravel and did what we had to. Now they have artificial grass! Nice.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2015 5:24 PM

2015-05-30T17:24:45-04:00

PV2 Walker, this can be a tough one. I'd first ask what's the difference between an injury and an "owie?" Not exactly a professional term, but one I used to ask my football players. An injury prevents you from completing the mission and is not something that feels better a day or three later. Some injuries can't be faked, while others can. When is a PT failure not a failure? When you pass your APFT with strong scores both before and after the injury. If you barely get by and suddenly have an injury on the test, it doesn't bode well for your credibility, professionalism, or Warrior Ethos.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2015 6:11 PM

2015-05-30T18:11:58-04:00

I don't think there need to be any "provisions" in any Army publication for injuries! I have seen too many Soldiers faking injuries in order to get out of the APFT. The Army publications are written the way they are in order to leave room for each commander to run their organization. All units are not created equal!

In my opinion, it goes back toward leadership. If I have anPT stud scoring 250 or higher and out of the blue they score a 181 then I will try to apply logic and figur out why. Injuries happen and are not predicatable but it's up to leaders to not be cookie cutter leaders. Writing in the comments that the Soldier sustained an injury during the APFT will give the next grader a hint. If we use the paperwork properly, then a pattern can be established for everyone!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2015 6:21 PM

2015-05-30T18:21:24-04:00

I can sympathize with a true injury but the way that APFTs are conducted these days I don't see how it would occur. I will state something that may seem insensitive, I have taken PT test after 24 hour duty because of poor planning and also under the weather but I have always pride myself with being able to pass an APFT at any moment. My mantra, the more I sweat in training, the less I will bleed in battle. I tackle every APFT as if I am aiming for the extended scale that way even if I was under duress I would never drop to the 60 percent line.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made May 30 at 2015 6:44 PM

2015-05-30T18:44:01-04:00

I was doing the sit-up event and had a hernia, my 1SG said she was going to throw the test out but when it came to re-enlistment time guess what the command said I was flagged because I failed my record APFT. I agree with you that a legitimate injury that occurs during the APFT should be taken into account and not held against the Soldier. However, the Army does not always use common sense and logic when writing FM and AR.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2015 7:35 PM

2015-05-30T19:35:31-04:00

Imagine for a minute that this was possible. How many people do you think would "roll" their ankle as soon as they realize they won't make time on a run? How many would suddenly have "shoulder pain" on the push-ups and "lower back pain" on the setups? Then the overload on the medical system as they all go to sick call to try to prove their fake injuries.

The regs are written in such a way as to grant commanders a great deal of leeway in instances where regs don't provide exactly instructions.

Response by SGT Raymond Giebas made May 30 at 2015 7:44 PM

2015-05-30T19:44:34-04:00

There is no provisions when it comes to combat so why have provisions for the pt test. Make it as real as possible. If a soldier rolled their ankle in combat they would get back up and run, but a. REMF would just not do the pt test because it would simulate too much like war.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2015 9:19 PM

2015-05-30T21:19:49-04:00

A lot of times the leadership will hive the benefit of the doubt. Even if it does count as a "failure" the command might not flag the soldier or give him any negative actions.

Response by MAJ Anne McGee made May 31 at 2015 1:15 AM

2015-05-31T01:15:04-04:00

The regulations are a guide or framework for leaders to work with; if every single option were covered then there would be no room for leaders to apply discretion to situations.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2015 4:11 AM

2015-05-31T04:11:03-04:00

Not performing to standard on an APFT is a failed APFT. There are things leadership can do should an injury occur, including marking the APFT as a diahgnodtic, removing you from the APFT area and sending you to the aide station for treatment, or holding onto your PT card until your injury can be verified. It is also appropriate to tell your first line or the NCOIC of there is a reason you shouldn't take the APFT, such as recent illness or injury that may effect your ability to perform. But ultimately if you start the APFT and bolo you may just have to eat it and retest later when you're recovered.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2015 6:13 AM

2015-05-31T06:13:24-04:00

I have never understood why an injury is an automatic failure. If a Soldier gets injured in the execution of duty, saddling her/him with a failing grade is hardly expedient in my opinion. It was probably done to discourage cheating, but I will stand by my opinion of it not being expedient

Response by SPC William Weedman made May 31 at 2015 6:55 AM

2015-05-31T06:55:11-04:00

I don't know how it is handled anymore, but one of my units used to administer a PT test every month, but unless you scored above your normal the test was recorded on the APFT card but only the highest 2 were recorded as "Record Test" Perhaps it was because as a support unit we had soldiers constantly doing support missions which oftentimes did not allow one to keep up a constant PT regimen. I had a time I had to do a PT test the day after spending 2 weeks in the field, so needless to say that test score sucked wind. The humorous part was sitting with my squad leader and helping him write the mandatory counseling statement for failing the test, although we both that the next month would be better and it was. I'm not sure how to handle a unit that only tests twice a year, I would think there would be a need to have a make-up date for soldiers on leave, off-duty due to SDO, CQ, etc. and to catch the malingerers who are trying to skate out of the test.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2015 11:50 AM

2015-05-31T11:50:18-04:00

If you fail because of the injury go see medics get a profile let it heal the try again, too easy.

Response by SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA made May 31 at 2015 2:01 PM

2015-05-31T14:01:19-04:00

After reading all replies to this question, it saddens me to see such a low level of expectations and trust from the leadership towards their soldiers.

Most here assume that soldiers will fake injuries or will abuse the possibility of having a retest if injured during the APFT.

Somewhere I was taught that soldiers are a reflection of their leadership, so if in everyone else's experiences you have "cheating/abusing" soldiers, that tells me that they have not been taken care of in the first place, or else they wouldn't have to resort to those tactics.

If a soldier claims an injury during the APFT, he/she should be taken to the Aid Station right away and properly diagnosed. If the injury is real, a retest is scheduled and end of story. If the injury is just an owie or faked, then the soldier has failed his/her APFT and a counseling will ensue, and end of story.

No need to assume the worst of soldiers.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2015 8:58 PM

2015-05-31T20:58:16-04:00

I commend you on doing research but that's the wrong FM. It's FM 7-22 that is the new PRT Manuel. If you get legitimately injured and it's to such an extent it keeps you from passing then I don't think it should count. I also think it's a leadership decision. If you have good leadership that takes good care of its people then they usually do you a solid and understand the circumstances. Shit happens.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 1 at 2015 10:49 AM

2015-06-01T10:49:15-04:00

No. Get injured, see the medic. Medic says you're actually injured, then soldier up, drive on and take it again when you're healed up. I injured my back on the situps during a APFT at Carson (Fell back on a rock), and still ran. Ran slower than all hell, but still passed (if only by seconds). Come to find out, i had chipped one of by vertebrae. the chipped piece is still floating around somewhere back there. It doesnt hurt, so I leave it alone.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 1 at 2015 2:10 PM

2015-06-01T14:10:53-04:00

If you're on patrol and roll your ankle, you still have to finish the patrol. You're still out there with your team.
It's also written like that to allow commanders to maintain discretion in making decisions. That's a commanders call.

Response by SGT Racie Hutchens made Jun 2 at 2015 9:01 AM

2015-06-02T09:01:53-04:00

I agree I was stationed in a CSH in Miesau, Germany and they would set up our run on a uneven unpaved surface. Did we have a track? Why yes we did, did we use it? No! So yes, loads of (minor) injuries during the AFPT just enough to eff up your time if you were borderline,.. Sucks! But true!

Response by MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 2 at 2015 4:14 PM

2015-06-02T16:14:34-04:00

I agree with those saying that the regulations leave plenty of room for Commanders to have discretion. If malingering is a big issue, it is just as easy to have the Soldier undergo a medical exam immediately and if the Soldier is found to be in good enough condition, they should be administered another PT test within a reasonable amount of time. If they are found to have a serious but recoverable injury, then they should be given a profile and another chance after they have healed. This is definitely an art vs science of command question, but a good one.

Response by SPC Karl Tomolonis made Jun 11 at 2015 3:30 PM

2015-06-11T15:30:05-04:00

No not in the least bit. Then you would have guys claiming an injury while on the run. You either run through it or you take the fail and retake it.

Response by PVT Jevon James made Mar 13 at 2016 6:00 PM

2016-03-13T18:00:58-04:00

Based on the circumstances and proctor, its just the time completed, you should get an opportunity. on the next pt test offer.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2018 1:35 PM

2018-07-12T13:35:32-04:00

I once scored a 259 (100PU/100SU). I normally out ran the platoon but failed my run. My LT came up and asked if I was feeling ok just as I started to vomit. He had the 1SG not but me on extra PT and just retake the test in a few weeks.

Response by CPO Albert Kennison made Jul 12 at 2018 3:12 PM

2018-07-12T15:12:06-04:00

If injured during APFT, then allow the soldier to go to a real sick, and then when healed, retest him or her.