Why doesn't the USAF train either enlisted or have Warrant Officer pilots similar to the U.S. Army in order to counter the shortage ?

2017-11-08T12:01:59-05:00

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2017 12:06 PM

2017-11-08T12:06:16-05:00

Here's an article from the AF Times - https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2016/05/24/chief-cody-shoots-down-idea-to-revive-warrant-officers/

Chief Cody shoots down idea to revive warrant officers

Despite merging some career fields in recent years, the service has not lost technical competencies, he says.

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made Nov 9 at 2017 8:54 AM

2017-11-09T08:54:44-05:00

The USAF is stepping up to employ enlisted pilots of UAVs. In fact, a class has already graduated UPT. https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2017/05/05/fresh-off-graduation-these-are-the-air-force-s-first-enlisted-rpa-pilots/

BTW, For the record, I believe CMSAF Cody is way off base shooting down the idea of revival of the Warrant ranks.

Fresh off graduation, these are the Air Force's first enlisted RPA pilots

On May 5, the first three enlisted airmen in Air Force history — identified as Master Sgt. Alex, Master Sgt. Mike, and Technical Sgt. Mike — graduated from undergraduate RPA training at Joint Base San Antonio-Randolph in Texas.

Response by TSgt Jamie Boylan made Nov 9 at 2017 1:18 PM

2017-11-09T13:18:08-05:00

Where will the new warrant billets come from? You know the Officer Corps won't give up the billets. The Enlisted Corps is stretched thin as it is to give up their billets. I highly doubt that Congress is willing to just authorize another 3 to 4 thousand extra billets for a warrant officers on top of the 5800 they just authorized.

Response by Sgt Bob Hutchins made Nov 9 at 2017 3:25 PM

2017-11-09T15:25:49-05:00

When arrived at my first duty station, as a 47151 general purpose vehicle mechanic, our maintenance officer was a elementary school teacher by training. His replacement was a W04. Quite a difference in knowledge required to do the job. Only ever met a couple WO's, but they were very technically versed in the function of maintaining mechanical equipment.

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2018 8:54 AM

2018-03-13T08:54:31-04:00

Enlisted pilots are in the works of being trained if I'm not mistaken. Not sure if they are yet or not but the idea is there and already making ground.

Response by MSG Frank Kapaun made Mar 13 at 2018 8:58 AM

2018-03-13T08:58:46-04:00

The pilots in the USAF are a protected class. Pure elitism is the only reason there are not enlisted pilots now. In fact, enlisted pilots existed from 1912 to 1958.

Response by CPL Daniel Keith made Mar 13 at 2018 3:09 PM

2018-03-13T15:09:43-04:00

Why not, when i was in the Army (76-86) i knew alot em's that were smarter th the butter balls we got out of west ponit

Response by TSgt John LaBelle made Mar 13 at 2018 5:24 PM

2018-03-13T17:24:28-04:00

This has been an ongoing fight for years. The senior enlisted do not want to give up their power. Officers don't want to be pilots, they want to fly "real" aircraft. There are a lot of career fields that warrant officers would make a significant impact in.

Response by 2d Lt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2018 8:50 PM

2018-03-13T20:50:46-04:00

The problem has more to do with capacity to train more pilots and retain the current ones than it does finding officers who wanna fly.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2018 9:50 PM

2018-03-13T21:50:36-04:00

The Air Force should reinstitute the Flight Officer rank. They had it in WWII. Ever heard of Chuck Yeager?

Response by MSgt Lee Austin made Mar 14 at 2018 7:22 AM

2018-03-14T07:22:59-04:00

Never understood why the Air Force did away with Warrents. Having been in both the Army and Air Force I know that senior enlisted ranks in the Air Force do the jobs reserved for Warrents in the Army.

Response by PO1 Duane Mosier made Mar 14 at 2018 8:21 AM

2018-03-14T08:21:47-04:00

The Navy has had WO’s Since inception. They are the technical experts.

Response by MSgt Frank Hickman made Mar 14 at 2018 9:18 AM

2018-03-14T09:18:58-04:00

The Air Force had Warent Officers until the senior grade NCOs came in. None of them were pilots to my knowledge. In the mid 60s the Army had a program that certain rankes and afscs in the AF could apply for WO training as Helecopter pilots in the Army. Of course many of them wound up in Vietnam. I don't know how long the program lasted.

Response by PO1 Glen Cook made Mar 14 at 2018 12:48 PM

2018-03-14T12:48:20-04:00

During WWII the Japanese several good enlisted pilots including one outstanding PO 2. My father flew in the CAP, but when drafted became an enlisted photographer which was a waste.

Response by LCpl Darrell J. Farley Jr. made Mar 14 at 2018 2:14 PM

2018-03-14T14:14:29-04:00

Didn’t the Army Air Corps have what was called “FLYING SERGEANTS “ in WWII?

Response by COL William Oseles made Mar 14 at 2018 5:01 PM

2018-03-14T17:01:31-04:00

Better yet go back to Sergeant Pilots. Think of all the money and officer slots they would save.

Response by CMSgt Charles Washington made Mar 14 at 2018 7:57 PM

2018-03-14T19:57:55-04:00

This is a program long over due . When I entered in military service in 1961 , the warrant officer grade was being phased out . The E 8 and E 9 grade was its replacement . I worked with several warrant officers in the Air Traffic Control AFSC up until 1965 . A well respected rank .
CMS , Charles W Washington , retired
USAF .

Response by SFC Ron Culver made Mar 14 at 2018 8:21 PM

2018-03-14T20:21:54-04:00

It is called a class system. Heaven forbid a lowly enlisted swine pilot an airplane.

Response by PO1 Buddy Summers made Mar 14 at 2018 8:35 PM

2018-03-14T20:35:43-04:00

The USAF officer corp have the opinion that enlisted members don’t have the intelligence to complete flight training . This isn’t the Air Force of old now a large percentage of enlisted members have college degrees and have the capacity to fly. The elitism is abundant.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2018 9:18 PM

2018-03-14T21:18:19-04:00

To be honest with you that's one of the reasons I did a service transfer I wanted to be a Fire Support Warrant Officer after a few deployments as a 1C4 and working with them I thought it was something I wanted to pursue . All I can say is boy did the Army have a surprise for me once I sign on the line that's all I'm gonna say about that .

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2018 9:57 PM

2018-03-14T21:57:08-04:00

What. And water down the pure blood? Not going to happen. If you can train a warrant or enlisted to fly why have a bunch of overpaid officers doing it?

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2018 11:06 PM

2018-03-14T23:06:53-04:00

The Air Force can retain tons of talent if they had Warrants. If the Army didn’t have a WO program, I would have left 10 years ago and took my talents elsewhere. Instead, I re-enlisted, submitted a Warrant packet and continued to serve. I feel they got their money’s worth with me and I continue to serve and contribute greatly today. The cost for warrants can be offset by changing some of the enlisted bullets. An Army WO is a force multiplier. This means they can do the job of both an enlisted person and an officer in some cases. You could drop 2 billets and add 1 WO and the mission would improve. I currently work in a joint environment of elite enlisted technicians from all services. I hear AF personnel that leave the AF say that if the AF had WOs, they would stay in but they are offered so much money to get out and go to the private sector because they know their worth. Yes the Army accepts AF candidates but some only like the AF branch which is totally understandable. This is just my 2 cents.

Response by SP5 Patrick Oxford made Mar 15 at 2018 12:05 AM

2018-03-15T00:05:04-04:00

The last USAF enlisted pilot retired in the early 1970s. I remember seeing the story in The Army Times. It made an impression on me because I didn't think the our Air Force ever had any.

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2018 9:18 AM

2018-03-15T09:18:09-04:00

I’ve been around Army Warrants most of my life. My father was a watercraft engineer and a warrant. Now I’m doing my time in the Air Force, doing exactly what he did but as air crew in the Air Force. And I’m enlisted. I think flight engineers should be warrants due to the technical knowledge and skill that it takes to do our job, along side other jobs in the Air Force.

Response by CW4 John Alley made Mar 15 at 2018 10:02 AM

2018-03-15T10:02:04-04:00

Same thing I said six months ago. CW4 ....ret Army

Response by PO3 Herbert Smith made Mar 15 at 2018 11:09 AM

2018-03-15T11:09:18-04:00

Because the Air Force officer corps are elitist, arrogant and snobbish. This bullshit that you have to have a college degree to fly is pure nonsense. There were many enlisted pilots and aviators in WW2. The Air Force needs to be completely revamped with actual leaders who are open minded to new ideas amd realize that it's the emlisted ranks who make it work. Not the officers.

Response by MSgt Horace Smith made Mar 15 at 2018 11:29 AM

2018-03-15T11:29:33-04:00

The USAF had already made to decision to eliminate WO grades when I enlisted in Feb., 1965. WOs still on duty could serve until retirement but no new Warrant Officers were allowed. I was in Avionics and never met a WO in my field. I saw only a couple during the years before the last one retired. I've always considered it a mistake to do away with them. Besides, "Mr." is a great way to be addressed.

In 1968, USAF Avionics enlisted personnel were offered a chance to become a WO-1 in the Army. Most in my shop were nearing the end of their hitch and declined. Only one man, an E-5, took the offer and he was not WO material IMO.

WRT "elitism", only those with a college degree can become an officer in the USAF. That policy/attitude eliminates many good people from ever being a pilot. A degree is no guarantee of common sense or good decision making or job proficiency. There's much to be said for merit promotions but unless you have a degree, forget being a commissioned officer in the USAF.

Response by SMSgt Barney Brown made Mar 15 at 2018 1:26 PM

2018-03-15T13:26:38-04:00

this makes NO sence to me.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2018 5:11 PM

2018-03-15T17:11:33-04:00

So they just pulled a bunch of enlisted the begging of the year to train as pilots as a test program to possibly added permanently in the future. I would imagine, if all goes as planned, they would end up making those pilots warrants as opposed to just regular enlisted flying.

Response by CPT Jim Kotva made Mar 15 at 2018 5:12 PM

2018-03-15T17:12:15-04:00

Being in the aviation field I understand fairly well the complexity of the new aircraft compared to the military aircraft of 70+ years ago. With the right training the air force could have warrant officer pilots. If you can be a pilot with a degree in accounting why can't you be a pilot without a degree?

Response by CW3 Doyle Frost made Mar 15 at 2018 7:34 PM

2018-03-15T19:34:38-04:00

Because the USAF, in it's infinite wisdom, (and ego) has determined that no one can be one or the other. For some reason or other, they seem to think someone needs to be a "commissioned officer" to be able to fly these modern aircraft. Of course, those Secretary of the Army commissioned chief warrant officers in those Apache helicopters might disagree with that. I think the main thing is the USAF wants all its flyers to be able to advance up the money grabbing ladder to become buddies with all the politicians to keep the USAF coffers full, regardless of what the rest of national security branches need. They seem to consider warrants as not being up to the task of actually being capable of command actions/decisions. OF course, I'm prejudiced. I was in the USAF, got out, and retired from the army, as a "Commissioned Chief Warrant Officer."

Response by Lt Col Barry Sullins made Mar 15 at 2018 8:15 PM

2018-03-15T20:15:31-04:00

Finally some sanity.

Response by MSG Danny Mathers made Mar 15 at 2018 9:14 PM

2018-03-15T21:14:18-04:00

The USAF did away with Warrants after the draw down of the Korean War to save the pilot numbers. Master Sargeant and above replaced the duties of technical warrants. This is what I was told when I went to the USAF SNCO course.

Response by PO1 Sojourner "Chancy" Phillips made Mar 15 at 2018 10:06 PM

2018-03-15T22:06:22-04:00

I was just having this discussion with a couple of my AF colleagues both officer and enlisted and an Army Officer as well yesterday. We were discussing how beneficial it would be and comparing Army and Navy Warrant programs not just aviation but also in other area such as Comms and Cyber. They all seem to think it would be a good thing but don't really think that the AF will really commit to it. My understanding is that this is an issue that has been raised many times. It was a really interesting conversation because there were 3 branches of people discussing a really good topic..... and no AF jokes were made. :-)

Response by SSG John Bacon made Mar 15 at 2018 11:02 PM

2018-03-15T23:02:07-04:00

They do for Drone operations.

Response by TSgt Nicholas Nieves made Mar 16 at 2018 1:58 AM

2018-03-16T01:58:03-04:00

THE AIR FORCE ONLY WANTS PILOT WITH COLLEGE DEGREES. I HAD A MAINTANENCE OFFICER THAT HAD A MUSIC DEGREE AND A FRIEND OF MINE THAT WORKED FOR ME HAD A FAA AIRFRAME AND POWERPLANT CERT. AND THREE YEARS OF FLIGHT TRAINING AND WAS A MULTI-ENGINE PILOT AND JOINED THE AIR FORCE BECAUSE THE ARMY WAS DRAFTING HIM AND HE DIDNT WANT TO BE A HELICOPTER PILOT IN VIETNAM, MY POINT IS THAT HE WOULD HAVE BEEN A GREAT CHOICE FOR WARRANT OFFICER BUT AGAIN THE AIR FORCE WANT A COLLEGE DEGREE SO THEY MADE HIM A CREW CHIEF

Response by SPC Daniel PerezVertti made Mar 16 at 2018 5:48 AM

2018-03-16T05:48:11-04:00

Because it makes sense. Just like bringing back the SPC5 rank in the army.

Response by CCMSgt James Helms made Mar 16 at 2018 11:52 AM

2018-03-16T11:52:07-04:00

The AF has looked at the Warrant programs several times since it's cancelation back in the early 1960s. The AF is totally different than the other branches. The AF commission programs allows for non-rated officer positions, i.e., maintenance officers, etc., to avoid putting officers who become disqualified to fly, out of the service. Primarily, the Warrant officer system caused problems with the officer assignment system. The AF also assigns E-8/E-9s to positions the other branches assign commissioned officers.

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made Mar 16 at 2018 2:29 PM

2018-03-16T14:29:11-04:00

USAF once had "enlisted pilots" with the Warrant Officer rank. But fighter pilot jealousy and envy, had the rank eliminated. Do you think they learned their lesson after 40 years?

Response by SrA James Cannon made Mar 16 at 2018 3:39 PM

2018-03-16T15:39:33-04:00

Yes, it's way past time for the Air Force to bring back warrant officers.

Response by Sgt Larry Carr made Mar 16 at 2018 5:56 PM

2018-03-16T17:56:17-04:00

they had them when I was in back in the late 60s

Response by Capt Dennis Tague made Mar 16 at 2018 6:44 PM

2018-03-16T18:44:06-04:00

The Warrant grades were refused for Physisian Assistants, and I’ll be surprised to see them again in my life time. Some 0-6 P.A.’s today are happy the AF is stubborn.

Response by Sgt Randy Harrison made Mar 16 at 2018 9:15 PM

2018-03-16T21:15:16-04:00

USAF had WO ranks until 1959. I think they need to be reintroduced.

Response by Sgt John Mazza made Mar 16 at 2018 10:30 PM

2018-03-16T22:30:12-04:00

Rather than adding ranks, they should consolidate them. O1-3 should merge with E7-9. Just make a commission the same as appointment into an E7 rank, or allow E6 to jump to O1. Senior NCOs have more power than most junior commissioned officers anyway.

Response by PO1 Charles Hannon made Mar 16 at 2018 11:20 PM

2018-03-16T23:20:09-04:00

If I remember correctly the Navy in WW2 had enlisted pilots. Perhaps I am wrong about that but seem to remember reading that one time. But then again Naval Aviation doing the Air Forces job since 1947.

Response by SSgt John H Wise made Mar 16 at 2018 11:41 PM

2018-03-16T23:41:14-04:00

Good idea to reenstate reenstate the warrant officer rank.

Response by LCpl John Stanley made Mar 17 at 2018 12:50 PM

2018-03-17T12:50:09-04:00

I don't know much about the Air Force or Navy pilots, but there must be an element of elitism at work. Plenty of civilian pilots probably never even graduated high school, much less college. I'll give my Air Force enlisted buddies at least one kudo: they send their OFFICERS off into combat. lol

Response by CPT Wes Marsh made Mar 17 at 2018 7:10 PM

2018-03-17T19:10:44-04:00

Very long story and reason short. It is a means of paying pilots a lot more money as an Officer than as an Enlisted. Same reason Doctors come in at higher ranks.

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made Mar 17 at 2018 10:38 PM

2018-03-17T22:38:56-04:00

That's a great idea but the Air Force can't see its way clear to doing it. I think you are right but the brass is so married to its ways they won't make the change until they feel they have to. I feel that one solution to junior officer shortages is to send outstanding E-5s and E-6s with 5 to 10 years of service to college and then make them officers.

Response by SSgt Tim Adams made Mar 18 at 2018 6:44 AM

2018-03-18T06:44:29-04:00

Armed forces in WWII had enlisted grades as pilots and in the USAAF promoted them to warrant officers once graduated. One notable private was Chuck Yeager. Unfortunately the issue of elitism is real and significant.

Response by TSgt Johnnie Keller made Mar 18 at 2018 8:47 AM

2018-03-18T08:47:18-04:00

Because the officers would have a fit, that's why. I hold a commercial pilot's license and while I was in the Air Force I flew for a few extra dollars when not on duty for a local sky diving club. It's not about how good or qualified you are; it's the whole commissioned officers thing. I knew Army Warrant officers who went from High School to basic training to flight school.

Response by SMSgt Paul Ringheiser made Mar 18 at 2018 9:12 AM

2018-03-18T09:12:38-04:00

Slots other than pi!it's need WOs too!

Response by CW2 Norman Fose made Mar 18 at 2018 3:30 PM

2018-03-18T15:30:30-04:00

Reason I didn't continue USAF and crossed over to Army

Response by 1stSgt David Welch made Mar 18 at 2018 6:32 PM

2018-03-18T18:32:01-04:00

If someone already has to have the education and skill to make Warrant officer. Good if you have 15 years or more and already looking at retirement. But enlisted, FAA licensed pilots can leave AF and easily double or triple their annual salaries. Unless pilots get propay, the commercial airlines will scalp them long before they retire from the AF. That is only affordable if the AF cuts spending on other things, and that generally screws over non aircrew personnel.

Response by Lt Col Robert Canfield made Mar 18 at 2018 9:02 PM

2018-03-18T21:02:47-04:00

Curious how this topic comes up every few years. New ideas always look good when viewed from afar. The AF got rid of Warrants back in the 80s and replaced them with the "good idea" of establishing the E-8/9 ranks (as many have pointed out). Now the Warrant ranks are looking attractive again to many. Besides all the "cultural issues" that were mentioned (pilots should have college degrees, elitism etc. etc.), one issue that probably would not go down well is the pay disparity. An O-3 with 8 yrs would make about $700/month more than his W-4 counterpart (also with 8yrs) who is doing the exact same job. The pay difference would be even more noticeable between O-3 and W-3. Some warrants will accept the concept that they do not have responsibilities & headaches of being in a leadership track (and accept the slightly lower pay) , but it will still be a sore point for others.

Response by PO3 Roger Davis made Mar 18 at 2018 9:24 PM

2018-03-18T21:24:52-04:00

The NAVY still had some Warrant Officers in the early-mid 60s. They were great st what they did.

Response by SSgt Russell Stevens made Mar 18 at 2018 11:05 PM

2018-03-18T23:05:41-04:00

I never met an enlisted person arrogant enough to be a fighter pilot.

Response by Cpl Geoff Smith made Mar 19 at 2018 1:13 PM

2018-03-19T13:13:54-04:00

Air Force is the only service without Warrant Officers, could possibly save big money having them. Just Sayin.

Response by Capt James McAllister made Mar 19 at 2018 2:56 PM

2018-03-19T14:56:34-04:00

All Pilots may have to handle nuclear weapons and EWO documents. Only Commissioned Officers can be authorized to deal with that responsibility. Not that they are not capable , just what will the powers that be authorize.

Response by Col Jonathan Brazee made Mar 19 at 2018 7:00 PM

2018-03-19T19:00:45-04:00

My latest novel has enlisted and officer pilots. It has worked out well for the Army. As a Marine, as much as I love the Corps and admire the air wing, I usually tried to get Army helos in Iraq.

Response by CWO3 Patrick Wills made Mar 19 at 2018 7:23 PM

2018-03-19T19:23:39-04:00

To be a CWO in the USCG you need to be an E-7 or above. The CWO ranks provide the skill and experience that O-1 to O-3 lack. It just doesn't make sense the USAF does not have any Warrant Officers.

Response by TSgt Gary Neville made Mar 19 at 2018 8:27 PM

2018-03-19T20:27:16-04:00

The Air Force did have warrant officer ranks many decades ago

Response by C David Buchanan made Mar 19 at 2018 8:54 PM

2018-03-19T20:54:14-04:00

As we well know sister services as have long had warrants as their primary for pilots. With commissioned officers primary for command. In the move from amAir Core to Air Force this changed. Time to look back to past successes and ask why not...

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2018 9:49 PM

2018-03-19T21:49:34-04:00

I've been arguing for Warrant Officers for a long time. It is the solution for the Air Forces pilot shortage.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2018 11:05 PM

2018-03-19T23:05:28-04:00

JTACs should be WO's. At the very least JTAC SEE's should be.

Response by CW3 Raymond Mead made Mar 20 at 2018 2:56 AM

2018-03-20T02:56:20-04:00

I am a retired Tech Service Warrant, AKA a Walking Warrant. The Army has a long and proud history of Warrant Officers. The first Warrants were Paymasters over a century ago. As the rank evolved over the years they filled positions that required more expertise and authority than an NCO but less authority than an RLO, or Real Live Officer. Technically all four Warrant ranks (now five) fell between the ranks of Sergeant Major and Second Leiutenant. We were appointed on a document called a Warrant and signed(duly appointed) by the Secretary of The Army rather than a Commission signed by the President of The United States as the RLOs were. Although not intended to be leaders, we could, under certain conditions, command small detachments if there was no RLO available (or wanted to) to command them. In 1988 we were grudgingly welcomed into the fold of the Army Officer Corps as Commissioned Warrant Officers....sort of. Our Commissions were still signed by The Secretary Of The Army; i.e. SOTA Commissioned, and we still proudly wore our distinctive "Startled Eagle/Rising Eagle" on our service caps and in place of branch insignia on our class A blouse and fatigue shirt collar. In my career, that spanned the mid-60s, 70s and 80s, I was fortunate enough to meet a couple of Air Force Warrants and serve with a couple of Navy Warrants. The Air Force Warrants seemrd somewhat older than Army Watramts of the same rank. The Officer Corps is a bit political, and I wouldn't say that we were ever loved or welcomed into the Corps. I havr always described it as feeling like a SP4 who snuck into the O Club and could be kicked out at any time. A Sergeant Major once told me that the Air Force had the right idea when they eliminated the Warrant Officer rank and made the last of tjrm E7s. He said that the Army should do the same thing
I told him thst I disagreed because then I wpuld have to work for him. The Warrant Officer is a distinct and specialized technical expert in his chosen specialty. We were usually available to dedicate our every waking moment to the mission. If you were to sit down with a group of seasoned Warrant Officers and asked them how the Army benefits from Warrant Officers, they would tell you that every branch has at least one specialty with a Warrant Officer MOS They keep the Army rolling along. If it's broken they will show the troops how to fix it, and they will develop a preventative maintenance program to prevent a recurrance of the same problem. Sorry to be so verbose, but for the last half of my career I was a Warrant Officer. It was what I wanted, what I did and what I loved, and not everyone could be one. Not even that Sergeant Major! Hooah!

Response by SP5 Bill Griswell made Mar 20 at 2018 8:06 AM

2018-03-20T08:06:59-04:00

When I was in, had a WO/3, great teacher, one really smart dude, great guy all around.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2018 8:17 AM

2018-03-22T08:17:51-04:00

Officer shortages are everywhere. Army Reserves are critically low on positions that are usually filled by NCOs for half the pay. They want to make college a senior NCO requirement and I say balance the pay scale and Ill think about wasting thousands of dollars to get a piece of paper that says I can do what I told you I could do. Not to mention that I trained the last 5 officers to do that job before they moved on and held the position do or 5-6 years myself. If you ask me they are only confirming the Comissioned ranks are becoming irrelevant. Why spend all the extra money when qualified Service members are now and have been filling the role.

Response by A1C Billy Weems made Mar 22 at 2018 9:22 AM

2018-03-22T09:22:26-04:00

When I was in AF, we were told if we ever met an AF Warrant Officer to greet him and shake his hand. In 1972 they were very rare. To see one was an honor because they were mostly left over from WWII or Korea.

Response by MSgt Mark Tabacheck made Mar 22 at 2018 8:48 PM

2018-03-22T20:48:25-04:00

Used to have enlisted pilots

Response by PO1 Joseph Horne made Mar 23 at 2018 12:38 AM

2018-03-23T00:38:31-04:00

During WWII and Korea there were many enlisted pilots.I think that the Airforce's officer corps is afraid that their elitist manners would be threatened if enlisted men were allowed to fly airplanes. After all Navy enlisted Misselmen do work on nuclear missels while the Airforce only allows officers to

Response by SPC Gary Shoup made Mar 23 at 2018 5:46 AM

2018-03-23T05:46:24-04:00

No comment, I'm ARMY

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2018 7:52 AM

2018-03-23T07:52:26-04:00

At one time, not that long ago, being enlisted was not a road block to being a pilot.

Response by MSgt Edward Hayes made Mar 24 at 2018 9:35 AM

2018-03-24T09:35:33-04:00

When the super grades were created back in the day, the Air Force goal was to do away with W/Os. It was sold to congress as a money saver. Other services found the plan did not work well with their combat organization. In the Air Force E-8 and E-9s are managers often providing supervision over combined career fields. This arrangement does not always work well for the other services. If the Air Force has a leadership problem it is because they created it!!!

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2018 7:24 PM

2018-03-25T19:24:53-04:00

We talk about HERITAGE however our heritage had enlisted pilots.

Response by CMSgt Russell Kendall made Mar 26 at 2018 2:10 PM

2018-03-26T14:10:20-04:00

That stuck in my craw for most of my USAF career. I retired as a Chief Master Sergeant (E-9). Aircraft maintenance; C-130’s, F-4s, F-15s, F-16s, A-10s, KC-135s, EC-135s. From E-7 on, the last thing I needed was some 0-2,0-3, 0-4 out on the flightline getting in my business. Navy & Army WO’s I worked with on TDYs were experienced and smart.

Response by PV2 Cary Carpenter made Mar 27 at 2018 11:31 PM

2018-03-27T23:31:58-04:00

Sure, why not? Why let the Army have all the fun?

Response by Capt Dennis Tague made Mar 29 at 2018 5:49 PM

2018-03-29T17:49:34-04:00

I don't know if I've responded to *this* particular posting on this issue or not, but I'll be surprised if they do it. I am a Physician Assistant, and they refused to bring back the warrant grades for us, insisting on going with full commissions instead. I know there are, or soon will be, some retired O-6 P.A.'s who are very happy they didn't.

Response by 1SG Melvin Vanlandingham made Mar 31 at 2018 10:29 AM

2018-03-31T10:29:34-04:00

They don’t think that NCOs have enough brains to fly these aircraft! NCOs take them apart an put them back together , but we don’t have enough brains to handle a joy stick!!!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2018 8:50 AM

2018-04-01T08:50:12-04:00

They should bring in the warrant officer program. However, Air Force officers do not even trust us with the jobs we already have and allowing warrant officers to fly airplanes would mean the officers who are already pilots will no longer be that special. Pilots run the air force and they will not give up their prestigious careers even if it is to fix the pilot shortage.

Response by Col Wunsa K made Apr 1 at 2018 1:28 PM

2018-04-01T13:28:46-04:00

WO pilots will do nothing to solve the military’s pilot shortage, and if executed poorly could even make it worse. Two things are driving out the officer pilots - the monetary difference bewtween mil and airline pay, and the huge disparity in lifestyle. Neither of these things would be solved by WO or E pilots. In fact if you have WO/E pilots that have the same flying credentials as the Os the I’d submit they’d be even more likely to separate for the airlines at the current pay rates. To retain them you’d have to at least match the O pay scale.

Response by TSgt Liam O'Connor made Apr 7 at 2018 2:54 PM

2018-04-07T14:54:27-04:00

Enlisted RPA pilots is a good idea.

Response by CWO4 John Strachan made Apr 7 at 2018 3:13 PM

2018-04-07T15:13:33-04:00

Navy tried recently for 5 or 6 years. Shelved the program for many reasons. #1 being the fact that flight hours are a premium and CWO's were taking them from regular Naval Aviators. Regular Naval Aviators are actually cheaper as they get paid less from 01 to O4 than CWO Aviators.

Response by MSgt Michael Isenhour made Apr 7 at 2018 5:05 PM

2018-04-07T17:05:55-04:00

Why not introduce enlisted pilots to fly jets.

Response by MSgt Karl Mecca made Apr 8 at 2018 12:28 PM

2018-04-08T12:28:33-04:00

I think hink Joint Vision 2020 will take care of it.

Response by SSgt Don Morris made Apr 9 at 2018 5:17 PM

2018-04-09T17:17:08-04:00

When I served in the AF the Army was looking for volunteers to transfer into the Army to become Warrant Officers to fly Hueys. That was during Vietnam. Even at that time (67-71) the AF had very few WOs. But there are many enlisted personnel that are more than capable of being pilots. It does not take a college degree or an officers rank to be a good pilot. Like others have stated---elitism----nothing more.

Response by LTC Grorge Crowell made Apr 18 at 2018 4:46 AM

2018-04-18T04:46:40-04:00

Its culture. This question was asked during Vietnam. Fort Rucker could train Marine Helo pilots easily. (ARMY pilots were concidered among the best because of hrs and missions. .ex Task Force 160
Note: The USAF raped the ARMY of its Medical Warrrents ( PAs) by offeing them commission and more pay.
All services had flying sgts and warrents in WW11 and Korea.

Response by SPC Chris Ison made Apr 26 at 2018 11:24 PM

2018-04-26T23:24:13-04:00

So, a little interesting history, in WWII the highest enlisted rank was Grade 1 (out of 7), the pay grades of E-8 and E-9 did not exist, they were all grade 1. The E-8 Grade of master gunner was a warrant officer position (hence the marine rank of Master Gunnery Sergeant at E-8). Sometime in the 1950's in an effort to streamline the pay grade system, and with the requirement for all commissioned officers to have a bachelors degree, the Military was supposed to get rid of the warrant officers completely. Only the air force did it.

Response by Col Robert Wallace made May 27 at 2018 1:57 PM

2018-05-27T13:57:56-04:00

A good question. The RAF has had not only Flight Sargeants but several leg amputees who demonstrated the ability to fly with prosthetic limbs ever since WW II. So why not the American Armed Forces? My opinion is that there are too many brass hats in the Pentagon with nothing to do but twiddle their thumbs & think of ways to change things to their preference. Thus, "thoughts" become reality. Back in my day of Flight Training with propeller aircraft, all cadets were assigned the rank of a CWO and were called "Mr." Just as there once was no female combat pilots, now a proven fact of their capability, possibly some day Enlisted Pilots would have the same opportunity. I'm sure the brass hats would be amazed at some of the great pilots they would discover. As previously stated by other contributors, there is still a problem of no Enlisted Pilots due to pure elitism.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2018 8:15 PM

2018-05-29T20:15:08-04:00

No service has enlisted pilots for manned aircraft.

As for warrant pilots, that evolved after the AF and Army split up (1947). At the time, all Army Air Corps pilots were officers.

The AF just kept it that way...

Response by CDR Michael Goldschmidt made Jun 11 at 2018 11:58 AM

2018-06-11T11:58:14-04:00

Originally, the services made their combat pilots officers, because they operated behind enemy lines and were more likely to be taken prisoner. Officers were, by tradition, treated better as POWs than their Enlisted counterparts, and the US wanted assure their pilots better treatment. Army, Navy, and Marines had enlisted pilots, but they flew primarily support missions. I met one of the last Navy enlisted pilots in 1993 at the Richmond, VA, Airport, a fascinating man who was able to give me inside information on how pilots operated from the Battleships and Cruisers.

Other countries had combat pilots with Sergeant, Warrant, or Officer Ranks, based either on status before wings or social class, which we Americans mostly don't understand, at least not in the European way. My Father-in-Law was a Canadian WWII combat pilot, who was made a Sergeant on winging, later promoted to Warrant, and eventually commissioned. That was pretty standard for non-officers in the British Commonwealth. It also makes sense. Enlisted pilots, without eventual commissions, would be limited by pay, be given less ground responsibility than their officer peers (so they never would actually be peers), and would not be eligible to command squadrons. The rank division also creates an awkward social divide which may decrease unit cohesiveness, as equals in the air would not be able to act as equals on the ground. Many officers' messes, especially in aviation, make little if any distinction between their officers below the Major/Lieutenant Commander level, which is the majority of officers on a small ship or in a flying unit. They are generally on a first-name basis while away from the troops and party together, a social structure which simply would not be possible mixing in enlisted pilots. It may or may not be able to work with warrants, but probably would, as warrants are accepted similarly in Navy wardrooms.

From a flying competency perspective, enlisted folks, as a class, could be equally competent in their flying duties as officers, provided, of course, that they training would be the same. A degree does not make you smart, talented, or better suited to aviation. I would support the return of Warrant Officer pilots, for sure, the Warrant being issued when a pilot earns his/her wings. Why not? It has worked many places in the past.