Why don't NCOs give Soldiers positive counseling statements when they're doing a good job?

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 12:27:52 -0500

Response by CPT Mike M. made Dec 2 at 2013 1:16 PM

CPT Mike M. — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 13:16:55 -0500

Unfortunately I just chalk it up to human nature. It's more like us to get caught up when something goes wrong. When it goes right we're more likely to give them a pat on the back, maybe some recognition at the small unit level but then leave it at that rather than make it formal.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2013 1:49 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 13:49:22 -0500

I understand where you are coming from Sir. I am a big fan of recognizing someone for their hard work and when they screw up. There are a lot of people who only recognize Soldiers for all the wrong that they do.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2013 2:15 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 14:15:09 -0500

SFC, I think I'm one in a small number of NCO's that give positive counseling statements. I remember when I was a PV2 and there was a promotion waiver available for PFC in my section. My squad leader told the PSG that he wanted me to get the waiver. Another squad leader wanted his Soldier to get the waiver. The PSG said that he wanted to see the counseling packets on each of us. The other Soldier received the waiver because his squad leader had numerous counseling statements for the good things that the Soldier had done. I had done good things as well, but it wasn't documented on a 4856 and put in my counseling packet.  A pat on the back is a "in the moment" recognition and only lasts as long as you're standing there. A positive counseling is something that will last and could be the difference in getting promoted or not. NCO's seem to be quick to whip out a 4856 when a Soldier has done something wrong. NCO's need to take that same energy and recognize the good performance that their Soldiers give them.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Dec 2 at 2013 2:25 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 14:25:59 -0500

Whether is on a DA FORM 4856 or a 3x5 card, NCOs should write a report for a job well done for when it comes to waivers and awards, having a positive paper trail makes it easy to give awards to well deserving soldiers.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Dec 2 at 2013 2:31 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 14:31:48 -0500

Human nature - It's easier to criticize than compliment. Not saying it's right, but unless we get the negative stigma away from 'counseling', it'll remain this way.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Dec 2 at 2013 3:12 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 15:12:40 -0500

This goes back to another saying...People do what's INSPECTED rather than what's EXPECTED. When leaders say, "Hey, get me PFC Smith's counseling packet!"  Are they looking for negative or positive?  They are probably in trouble AGAIN and looking to hammer them.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2013 11:36 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 23:36:12 -0500

I see this as multiple problems...

1. (as others have noted) as critical beings, it is easier to see the bad than the good.

2. (as others have also stated) you are often REQUIRED to make the negative counseling, while you are SELDOM required to make the POSITIVE one.

3. (and the real root of the issue as I have seen it) People are "too busy" to do paperwork (read "lazy" in many cases).

I have seen time and again, from seniors AND peers (and I'm ashamed to say, myself as well), that it's pulling teeth just to get a monthly counseling, let alone any kinds of event-based or performance counselings mid-month...

I had great intentions with my Soldier. I was going to counsel her effectively, and get her taken care of... and I believe I did a GREAT job with verbal counseling. But that's as far as it got. The only paper she got was her initial counseling before I got transferred to a different position and she got a new NCO about two months later.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2013 7:34 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 07:34:05 -0500

I know that there are a lot of NCO's that don’t do this but I
have done them since I became an NCO and have had a couple given to me. I think
that a lot of times as NCO's we feel we have better things to do with our time
and would just rather verbally say good job then to write it down. And then you
have those NCO’s that can’t or don’t even do monthly counseling, which I think
is a bigger problem than not doing a good counseling.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2013 9:42 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 09:42:28 -0500

SFC McKinley, it is definitely rare, but I've learn from previous Soldiers I work with that dropping a kudos on their behalf into the 1SG or CSM's ears go a long way. Not to mention as a NCOIC, instead of them coming to give me some props pass that onto my Soldiers. Not that I've attained my goals yet, but I realize my Soldiers need that motivation and the tangibility of a coin or being called up in front of their peers is a huge motivational factor for them.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Dec 3 at 2013 10:27 AM

SGT Ben Keen — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 10:27:13 -0500

Beyond being human nature to criticize rather than compliment; I think the other side of why NCOs don't take the time to give Soldiers positive counseling can sadly come down to laziness. It is a lot of time to write up and issue a proper counseling statement. More often than not, we as NCOs would rather just give the pat on the back or some other sort of reward for a great job performed by a lower-enlisted service member. The NCO may just say to himself or herself that it is no big deal; they will just catch it on the monthly counseling but watch that same NCO run to the platoon office to get out of PT to write a 4856 for a Solider who was 2 minutes late for the same PT formation.

Response by LtCol Dann Chesnut made Dec 3 at 2013 10:57 AM

LtCol Dann Chesnut — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 10:57:46 -0500

In the USMC; there is the "Meritorious Mast", which is actually given by the CO, but started by anyone in the Marine's chain of command to include NCOs.

Response by LtCol Dann Chesnut made Dec 3 at 2013 11:02 AM

LtCol Dann Chesnut — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:02:21 -0500

I recall the Sergeant Major saying something slightly negative about a Marine in the formation. Really is recognizing him to the group, which is a positive in the eyes of all. Maybe it's a Marine thing that others wouldn't understand.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2013 1:53 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 13:53:14 -0500

Unfortunately the disconnect often sits with the rapidly promoted NCO's of today's Army. A 4 year SSG barely learned how to be a SPC let alone a SGT. How can we expect NCO's who have not been mentored or trained to know how to do anything? There is a reason that the Army is going back to an extended eligibility for promotion system, it is to allow time for NCOs to grow and learn before they are thrust into positions they are not ready/able to handle. My $.02 take time to prepare yourself then take time to mentor and prepare your Soldiers to become NCOs don't promote on Time promote on competency and potential.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2013 2:05 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 14:05:45 -0500

There is nothing better than to call a Soldier and his squad leader into your office. You tell them both to get at Parade Rest, ask them why their there (while they both have a blank stare) and start reading the positive counseling statement. It gets them every time!! It's a rewarding feeling for both counselor and counselee; it sets the Soldier up for complete success and let's them know they are doing a great job!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2013 3:28 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 03:28:24 -0500

I think every NCO should go through a human resources or managing personel course. If I worked for a civilian boss that only told me all the bad stuff then I would probably not be as effective when working for that boss. We take for granted that our soldiers just can't quit their jobs like a civilian but they can become those bare minimum or almost minimum soldier that we see in every unit. We also have to remember it isn't easy to get rid of a bad one. We should try everything we can to bring a soldier in line and positive meaningful counselings can help to do that.

Response by SSG Ronald Limbaugh made Dec 4 at 2013 7:56 AM

SSG Ronald Limbaugh — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 07:56:51 -0500

As always, my thoughts on the question at hand...
The positive counseling should come during times when the NCO sees the Soldiers doing their job above the standard. A spoken word of appreciation or praise at the time of notice does the same thing, at least in regards to the Soldiers' mentality and morale. Additional comments concerning positive results of the Soldiers' work can, and should be, included in their monthly counseling, without requiring the additional paperwork. Negative counseling, on the other hand, provides an incident-by-incident record of behavior that is acceptable within the standards that the Soldier is expected achieve. Just from my memory of being lower enlisted in the line... "Any counseling statement NOT received between monthly counseling sessions, is a good counseling statement"

Response by SGT Michael McMahon made Dec 4 at 2013 2:02 PM

SGT Michael McMahon — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 14:02:14 -0500

When I counselled my soldiers, I gave an honest counselling. I pulled out the last counselling statement, and would go point by point in the expectations for the next period, and told them what my observations regarding each point, whether it is good or bad, and it all depended on the soldier. The soldiers know what is expected, as they receive a copy of the counselling statement, so it is up to them to show that they want to be (excellent, good, just get by, or don't care), and their counselling represented their efforts towards what was expected. Those that fail to make the standards, get bad counseling, those that meet or exceed the standard will receive good or excellent counsellings. That is what 600-20 states is supposed to be done, and that is what I did, and my NCOER's reflected that.

Response by CW3(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2013 2:55 PM

CW3(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 14:55:24 -0500

We get so caught up in the bad we forget the good. Same thing happens with the media. How often do you see someting good as opposed to something bad?

Response by SFC Istvan Nagy made Dec 4 at 2013 9:03 PM

SFC Istvan Nagy — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 21:03:23 -0500

Most of the time I did my positive counseling verbally throughout the month and put in writing at the end of the month. Of course there where special circumstances when putting in writing right away (if the situation permitted) was more advantages for the soldier, especially if the soldier worked for someone else. According to my experience, the soldier that received a verbal (or any type) of positive counseling made a lot more effort to accomplish his/her mission.

Response by SGT Aja Johnson made Dec 5 at 2013 1:13 AM

SGT Aja Johnson — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 01:13:16 -0500

I think it comes from not wanting to be "soft" with Soldiers today. I feel like praising soldiers is a good thing! Although, I think some NCO's reserve this type of thing for writing up awards for outstanding soldiers. You can't use everything as a bullet, obviously, but it shows more appreciation than a positive counseling. Even if an NCO doesnt write positive counselings, that NCO should at least have an oaktree counseling with all of their soldiers and tell them all how much they are appreciated as being apart of the team. That little bit of reaching out means a lot to younger soldiers. I came in the army under bad leadership and I instantly hated the Army, but once I fell under an awesome NCO who did these kinds of things, it motivated me. It motivated me to the point that I am now an NCO, and I will pass that NCO lineage on to my soldiers.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2013 5:08 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 05:08:53 -0500

I think the issue is more than just NCOs not giving positive counseling's; it's NCOs not counseling. A lot of NCOs today don't even do the proper reception and integration; monthly, or even proper promotion counseling's. Like some one else stated its not until the CSM wants to see promotion packets do they produce them. And a lot of the NCOs that are doing them they are not being done properly. They are sloppy, short, cut and pasted, poorly written crap. Some of these NCOs don't take it seriously. So of course if you cant even produce a once a month counseling, why would you waste your time with a positive. I bet if we could figure away to punish Soldiers with out needed a paper trail a good chunk of NCOs would never touch a 4856 again.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2013 7:46 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 07:46:37 -0500

I agree with the stigma of a counseling being negative problem the Army seems to have. The next duty position I am in that I have soldiers I will most definitely emphasis positive counseling. Change starts small but if we all make the small changes they become the norm. : )

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2013 12:12 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Dec 2013 12:12:18 -0500

I never understood why more people dont do this. Ive always done it and it has helped me when it comes to monthly and quarterly NCO counselings. It doesnt have to be a novel, just a few statements pointing out what good things the Soldier has done. Several years ago I recommended to the 1SG that one of my Soldiers get the promotion waiver for that month. He was hesitant until I pulled the counseling packet out and showed him the counselings.

My advice, if you think the Soldier deserves a counseling for something positice, then give it to them.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2013 1:56 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Dec 2013 13:56:28 -0500

SFC Keith,

Is it because their 1SG doesn't expect this from his/her NCOs? Our 1SG requires that our supervisors catch us doing things right, and as a result we get counseling statements when we go above and beyond. It feels great receiving one and it helps me push through those discouraging moments when I wonder if my efforts are worthwhile.

I realize that this is an unsophisticated answer, but I'm speaking from the average joe's point of view.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2013 9:12 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 Dec 2013 21:12:39 -0500

This is one question that I can use this answer to, and numerous other questions also:

Ask the 82nd how they train their leaders. Almost all the great leaders I've had, wore an All-American patch.

Response by SFC James Baber made Jan 11 at 2014 10:59 PM

SFC James Baber — Sat, 11 Jan 2014 22:59:04 -0500

I think this is a good thread for those we are trying to get to join can see the substance of some things we discuss between us as current and former military, soft spoken as well as informational and mentoring types of postings.

We also have fun at times while remaining professional.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 12 at 2014 1:21 AM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Jan 2014 01:21:56 -0500

A few months ago, my platoon Sgt called me into his office and dropped a 4856 in front of me and I did the "awe shit" trying to recount my last few weeks and encounters. He went on to explain that my constant positive attitude, outstanding military bearing, and motivating others at pt while excelling myself not only improved company morale but made me a prime candidate for a positive counseling. This was the first time I had seen this in the 2+ years in, so it definitely still happens, just sparingly.

Response by SGT Benjamin Dutill made Jan 12 at 2014 1:37 AM

SGT Benjamin Dutill — Sun, 12 Jan 2014 01:37:44 -0500

Being a Team Leader for numerous soldiers from my past and present units, I have praised them for doing good things. Recently, about 5 months ago (not so recent) I gave one of my Soldiers a positive counseling for going to the Soldier of the Month Board even though he didn't win the board. He set himself out among his peers and set the example. I have also given some soldiers that were not on my team positive counselings for taking initiate in the absence of orders, again setting the example for their peers. I just wish I could see more of it in the Army instead of NCOs giving negative counselings for dumb stuff.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 12 at 2014 1:44 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Jan 2014 01:44:28 -0500

At my unit, positive counselling was few and far between (if ever) especially from those above me in rank. In my unit the AF Form 174 (counseling form) was almost entirely used in the negative. I did not think that was the way it should be thought of, so whenever I could - I would use it for positive counselling. For those occasions that I had to use it for a not so positive situation - I would make sure that it came accross as constructive criticism - that way it had a productive result. I know there are certain instances that you have to come down hard, but for the most part - constructive criticism worked out good and produced the results I was looking for. Plus, it kept the individuals from going in the negative direction after the counseling session. Hopefully that continued when I left.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2014 2:48 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Mar 2014 14:48:18 -0400

Laziness. I was guilty of it as an E-5. With experience I have changed my tune and have come to realize there is value in them.

It's on us to provide positive counseling for a multitude of reasons:

-It shows you are paying attention to the hard work your joe's are doing
-It demonstrates you will take the time and effort to sit down and recognize their achievements
-You can motivate the SM to further improve themselves, take on more responsibility, etc
-It's an opportunity to focus their efforts and groom them for promotion

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2014 2:53 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Mar 2014 14:53:07 -0400

Training (most NCOs don't even know there is such thing as positive counseling), and overview from the NCOs NCO. Is Johnny Joe scores a 300 on his PT test, is the squad leader or platoon sergeant making sure he gets properly counseled?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2014 3:03 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Mar 2014 15:03:11 -0400

Because it's the military. No one remembers the good things you do. But no one will let you forget the bad things you've done.

Response by SPC David Tabor made Mar 20 at 2014 3:30 PM

SPC David Tabor — Thu, 20 Mar 2014 15:30:29 -0400

Wait ... there were positive counseling statements?? I always thought those were like Sasquatch ... lots of rumors about them but no evidence of their existence. :)

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Apr 3 at 2014 9:33 AM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 09:33:47 -0400

Personal observation, laziness. Is easier to give the occasional "attaboy" pat on the back than it is to take to the time to sit down and say hey "SPC Knucklehead, you did good on this date when you did this particular thing."

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2014 10:38 AM

PV2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Jul 2014 10:38:00 -0400

From what Ive seen SFC, its they dont have the time to write out positives to everyone doing a good job but they can catch the ones doing wrong because dicipline is a must in the military, time is my explaination, granted Im only a PV2 but thats what I see

Response by LtCol Dann Chesnut made Jul 13 at 2016 8:06 PM

LtCol Dann Chesnut — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 20:06:28 -0400

In the Marine Corps, there is what is called a "Meritorious Mast". Which is not an award, but is a public "atta boy". It is read in full during the weekly organization formation, and the certificate is given to the Marine.

Response by SFC Rick H made Jul 16 at 2016 2:05 PM

SFC Rick H — Sat, 16 Jul 2016 14:05:49 -0400

Chief- here is what I will contend to your question- why don't NCO's write soldiers positive counseling. It's called " Lazy !" This is in fact sad, but as sad as it is, its also very true. During my 24 year career, I wasn't given positive counseling- those same NCOs who should have provided this for me, would not hesitate to write me up when I messed up. I also found that, very unfortunately, just because they are considered Senior NCO's, does not insinuate in any way shape or form that they poses clear and concise writing skills. After I retired, I sat back and actually read some of my NCOEERs; I could not believe what I was reading. Many of my NCOEERs were, as we use to say, " I done good " documents. Nothing to separate me from the other NCOs in my field who were cutting teeth, hands and feet to get promoted. I was actually shocked that I was ever promoted to E7 with some of the writing I read. Finally, I'm sure after reading my thoughts on this topic, there will be many NCOs out there and perhaps some Officers who will contend I am wrong. This is ok and I understand, but the soldiers of today tell me that they still do not see positive counseling from their NCO's. Done deal! Rock Steady... HOOAH