Posted on Feb 10, 2017
Why don't we have a score system in place for the ALT events on the Army's APFT?
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Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 8
MSG (Join to see) By definition, if your doing an Alt event, are you not demonstrating your not 100% physically fit ?
The requirement is to be able to perform the standard (full) APFT once a year for recored and than as needed to qualifying for schooling, or promotion.
If you can not "meet" that standard and must take an alt event to perform the required task...do you think it just, right, fair, to earn the same recognition (points) for what is in fact a lesser performance of standards?
The Service needs only the best, we have no need this month for less than the best we can obtain or retain. So the standard remains, do the full APFT and earn points for your performance based results.
If your incapable of performing the full APFT, and must do an alternate event...the service has decide to allow you an alternate opportunity to show cause why you should not be separated, even though you can not perform to the required standard. That seems pretty fair to me, The standard, an Alt standard of lesser performance, and then a failure of the standards
From the position of the SM needing to do the Alt event, but still technically and tactically capable in the assigned tasks, that sucks for sure.
From the perspective of Big Army, well, they only need a 225, have 200 on hand, and 50 wanting to join, sorry, but they do not need (this month) all of you, and so only those that can perform fully, will earn the full points, those who can still complete the required task can for this month stay, those that can do neither will be separated.
Next month could be different,,,if need far out grows on hand and wanting to join.
This is a great example of why I have always said there should be two physical fitness tests.
One is a pass / fail that qualifiers you for retention... MOS based only, not normalized by gender or age.
And then a "competition" ..Normalized by gender and age, but no alt events.....
The events are X, Y, Z, points are awarded for performance, on a sliding scale gender and age normalized. If you can not perform the event, you do not earn the points . If you can not do the event as well as someone else, you do not earn as many points.
The requirement is to be able to perform the standard (full) APFT once a year for recored and than as needed to qualifying for schooling, or promotion.
If you can not "meet" that standard and must take an alt event to perform the required task...do you think it just, right, fair, to earn the same recognition (points) for what is in fact a lesser performance of standards?
The Service needs only the best, we have no need this month for less than the best we can obtain or retain. So the standard remains, do the full APFT and earn points for your performance based results.
If your incapable of performing the full APFT, and must do an alternate event...the service has decide to allow you an alternate opportunity to show cause why you should not be separated, even though you can not perform to the required standard. That seems pretty fair to me, The standard, an Alt standard of lesser performance, and then a failure of the standards
From the position of the SM needing to do the Alt event, but still technically and tactically capable in the assigned tasks, that sucks for sure.
From the perspective of Big Army, well, they only need a 225, have 200 on hand, and 50 wanting to join, sorry, but they do not need (this month) all of you, and so only those that can perform fully, will earn the full points, those who can still complete the required task can for this month stay, those that can do neither will be separated.
Next month could be different,,,if need far out grows on hand and wanting to join.
This is a great example of why I have always said there should be two physical fitness tests.
One is a pass / fail that qualifiers you for retention... MOS based only, not normalized by gender or age.
And then a "competition" ..Normalized by gender and age, but no alt events.....
The events are X, Y, Z, points are awarded for performance, on a sliding scale gender and age normalized. If you can not perform the event, you do not earn the points . If you can not do the event as well as someone else, you do not earn as many points.
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CW3 (Join to see)
It's also about how did those knees get bad? Multiple jumps? So now he's not fit, so bye? Is that really what we want to be like?
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SGM Erik Marquez
CW3 (Join to see) - Cheif, yes, it is, Military service is not a welfare or charity program. If you can perform to standard, you may stay, if not it is time for a MED board and separation. Thats not a personal affront to the member, its a fact of life. We need able, physically fit members who can perform to the BEST of the standards, those unable are a liability to the rest.
Knees that hurt does not make you unfit.
Knees that hurt and you can take and pass an Alt event APFT AND still perform your duties as tasked does not make you unfit.
Knees that hurt and you CAN NOT perform your assigned tasks, getting in that combat vehicle in full kit, running down an insurgent, dragging an injured SM to safety, lifting that vehicle wheel into position to repair a flat, carrying your lap top and personal gear to the HELO, getting on board, exiting at the outpost and moving under threat of direct fire to the TOC so you can assist the BN staff at fixing there CPOF...Then, get MED boarded, and off you go with your Country's thanks.
Knees that hurt does not make you unfit.
Knees that hurt and you can take and pass an Alt event APFT AND still perform your duties as tasked does not make you unfit.
Knees that hurt and you CAN NOT perform your assigned tasks, getting in that combat vehicle in full kit, running down an insurgent, dragging an injured SM to safety, lifting that vehicle wheel into position to repair a flat, carrying your lap top and personal gear to the HELO, getting on board, exiting at the outpost and moving under threat of direct fire to the TOC so you can assist the BN staff at fixing there CPOF...Then, get MED boarded, and off you go with your Country's thanks.
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CW3 (Join to see)
But my point is, if those knees got bad due to multiple jumps in the line of duty, then it doesn't seem right to boot someone who's body is now damaged BECAUSE he did what his country asked of him.....
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SGM Erik Marquez
CW3 (Join to see) - Chief I understand your point, we simply disagree.
We dont "boot" people, we medically retire them with compensation.. by way of a Medical Board, and medical retirement.
And only then when they can NO LONGER perform their job.
We dont "boot" people, we medically retire them with compensation.. by way of a Medical Board, and medical retirement.
And only then when they can NO LONGER perform their job.
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Is giving a Soldier a "GO" for an ALT event an accuate way to assess his cardio fittness? When looking at promotion points is it fair to give a Soldier who does an ALT event an average score (max push up and sit up, 100 points for ALT event) against a Soldier who does all three events?
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MSG (Join to see)
this is a good question, I myself had to take alt event, walk vs run, I did my walk in 30 mins flat, I was 55, but maxed pu/su, for my age, so what is fare, I think that if you have 39 minutes to do your walk and complete it in 30 then do the math and get the percentage, my example comes out to be 76, so that would equate to a total score of 276, there are many flaws to the system, but giving a go/no go, shouldn't be 100 points it should be based on percentage of performance, to be honest I would've loved to run, that 2.5 mile walk in 30 minutes is a bitch
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I agree. What most leaders must understand is that yes the APFT states p/u, s/u, and 2 mile run. However, alternate events are there for a reason. Some may have encountered a combat injury that causes them to not be able to run. Should these individuals be looked at less than those that can complete the run? Absolutely not. No one Soldier is perfect but by that SM being resilient enough to still display physical and mental toughness in that alternate event, completing it well above standard, recognition should be made as those that complete the run well above standard do as well.
I know there are those select few that use the alt event to their advantage and have little to no integrity. However for those that just can't run, but still give 110% in the event they were suggested by medical personnel, why not applaud them for being resilient and not letting there injuries limit them even more than they are? Humility is key here and if there is already a standard for alt events, we can at least conduct some type of pilot program for a score system and get feedback to see if it's good.
I know there are those select few that use the alt event to their advantage and have little to no integrity. However for those that just can't run, but still give 110% in the event they were suggested by medical personnel, why not applaud them for being resilient and not letting there injuries limit them even more than they are? Humility is key here and if there is already a standard for alt events, we can at least conduct some type of pilot program for a score system and get feedback to see if it's good.
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