Why has being mediocre become the standard?

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 18 Apr 2014 08:47:46 -0400

Every day I log onto RallyPoint to see Officers, NCOs, and Soldiers complaining about living up to the standard. We have all seen the posts about how important a 300 is then many long time NCOs chime in about how the Army standard is 180 and if that is the standard than it is good enough. Then we have hundreds of posts about how the weight control program sucks and I weigh too much and it’s not fair. Leaders and Soldiers thinking that just because you know a little something about your job you shouldn’t have to meet that standard. There are a few posts discussing how a 110 GT score is too high and we should lower it because people are not good at tests. Then I have seen posts of people thinking that striving for distinguished honor grad and commandants list are not all that important.

I know some people are going to say things about PT doesn’t mean anything if you know your job, or if your PT is good body fat standard shouldn’t matter, or any of the other hundred reasons people have for under achievement and condoning it in their Soldiers.

My basic question is since when did just passing, barely meeting the standard or wanting the standards to drop to you instead of striving to be better become the way we do business. Is it just me? Am I the only one who sees this?

BLUF: Either you are trying to excel and not just meet the standard but far exceed it. Or…. You are just coasting by doing the bare minimum and are a detriment to our force.

Response by SPC Dan Goforth made Feb 14 at 2014 1:54 PM

SPC Dan Goforth — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 13:54:40 -0500

SSG Beutler, you do indeed have a point. During the push to meet numbers, the Army slacked off on enforcing some standards, and it has influenced Army culture. The Army is just now starting to push higher enforcement of standards, and I agree with it wholeheartedly.

I feel like this because the first half of my career, I had that attitude, that I met the minimum standard in my weakest area (PT) and was fine, and so I put all my effort into honing my strengths more. That mistake has cost me, and my military career is more than likely over with my current ETS date, if not a med board, because I failed to push myself where I needed to more.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2014 2:05 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 14:05:14 -0500

I think a lot of it ha to do with the war. Constant PT and staying fit has somewhat become a casualty of the war focus we have had for 13 years. We have gotten out of our normal routine of PT tests every 6 months. I hear too often Leaders that say they want to waive a PT test prior to or after a deployment.<div><br></div><div>I gave notice yesterday for a PT test Tue, Thu and Fri of next week and some Soldiers complained it wasn't enough time. Over time PT and HT/WT will come back to the top. We as Leaders just have to enforce it. Once the deployments slow and it becomes routine you will see the focus change.</div><div><br></div><div>Leaders need to tighten the screws on PT and HT/WT. If you pay close attention it is slowly starting to work it's way back into the Army mainstream.</div>

Response by SGT Christopher Hoffman made Mar 13 at 2014 4:22 PM

SGT Christopher Hoffman — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 16:22:29 -0400

Frankly, I was as a mid-career junior NCO put out for not making progress IAW AR 600-9. Looking back at it, as I knew then, I was perceived by senior leadership as an embarrassment to my Soldiers. I accepted that I was "under the cannon" but I did try to get better. I also now view that while some senior to me were catching hell on my behalf, I also appreciate those who tried to help me or those who were honest to me about it.

Not befitting me, but understanding me and my issues and then even despite that, utilized my strengths still. I accepted as I did when I came back from knee reconstruction surgery that I was on borrowed time. My view is that it's not acceptable to expect what you as the leader cannot meet yourself. But like some of my seniors did, my Soldiers accepted me at face value, especially when I told them with regards to PT and AR 600-9 that they MUST be better than I am. And they were, even as I was being separated from service and beyond.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 13 at 2014 5:53 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 17:53:03 -0400

Honestly, I'm on the opposite side of the fence. I think we place way too much emphasis on PT and HT/WT. For most personnel, their ability to run, do push ups, sit ups, etc. is completely irrelevant to their duties, to include while deployed. I could not care less what that admin clerks run time is. Can he do his job? Same with most every other MOS. Tactical and Technical proficiency are the two most important, but least mentioned variables.<div><br></div><div>A PT program is fine. I acknowledge we should be fit, but let's bring back MOS testing. That's MUCH more important than your ability to run or do push ups.</div><div><br></div><div>The military of the future needs intelligent, logical, critical thinkers. Brains are far outpacing brawn in relevance and importance.</div>

Response by SSG Gordon Hill made Mar 22 at 2014 12:34 PM

SSG Gordon Hill — Sat, 22 Mar 2014 12:34:10 -0400

It is a an Army regulation, if anybody has question they should read up on it in AR 600-9, back in 1986 I was trying to get promoted to PFC in the Army and I was not in compliance with the AR so I was flagged, being overweight is not only a matter of being able to pass the AFPT it is a matter of complete and total readiness.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2014 4:03 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 04:03:45 -0400

Yes and no.  During the wars, we needed troops. As a 1SG, I submitted packets to BN only to have them kicked back.  Why, cause EOD is a critically short MOS and we couldn't afford to lose any.  Now is that the right answer?  How many lives did that Soldier save defeating IEDs? Where is the trade off? Who knows?  But I do know as NCOs we have to do the right thing.  If the senior leaders appointed above us decide to do something different, then that's on them we can't control them.  But at the end of the day, you will sleep better knowing you did what's right IAW Army Regs.  

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2014 8:50 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 18 Apr 2014 08:50:08 -0400

Its not, its just some certain individuals opinion

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Apr 18 at 2014 8:53 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Fri, 18 Apr 2014 08:53:45 -0400

<p>You're confusing "upholding the standard" with "blindly believing whatever I'm told and forming no original opinion or thought".</p><p>.</p><p>Positive change and progress come only through critical analysis and honest discussion.</p>

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Apr 18 at 2014 9:34 AM

SGT Bryon Sergent — Fri, 18 Apr 2014 09:34:48 -0400

I disagree. There are poeple in the force that are injured. We gave our all, we busted ours asses to be that person above the standard. I am so sick of poeple saying, we need to strive more, do more pt, your not motavated. Well let me say this. I am EXTREMELY movitavted, I bust my ass every PT test. I am a little over weight. I don't Gripe about the standard. But when you have two bad kness and a permenant profile that help to keep me in, then so be it. I have 14yrs of experience, 2 mos's, and have been in the national guard 11 of those 14yrs. Our training is the same as yours, I come in and see the young kids that don't know crap! They are looking up to some people that shouldn't be in the military at all. All they do is bitch about being there, that we dont train enough, then when we do. Then it is why are we out here. I am proud that I am one that strives to get the new guys away from those people and train them in the job that they are in, keeping up the PMI and BMI. I cant do what they can and that is be a PT stud. But helping them to be motivated enough to do THERE best!

Should we lower the standard NO! Meet the standard or exceed the standard.That is IT! No exceptions. At this point I am working my ass of to get my weight down as I CANNOT RUN. I walk, go to the gym, cut back on eating the wrong things and have basically became a freaking Rabbit! So excuse me if I dont agree. This isn't meant as an attack, just tired of the people who think everyone HAS TO HAVE A 300 PT test to be someone that matters or only people that should be in the Military. Some of us are also just corn feed counrty boys who had to work as kids on farms and might be just stocky. could we stand to lose a little weight, yes, but that doesn't mean we are the CRAP bags of the Military! Thant why I down voted. Sorry SSG nothing personel at all.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Apr 18 at 2014 9:44 AM

SGT Ben Keen — Fri, 18 Apr 2014 09:44:25 -0400

Okay, so here is my view on things.  THIS IS A DISCUSSION FORUM.  People have different views.  In most of comments provided do not say "accept 180".  I for one think that a 250 APFT score is just as good as a 300 if the tester busted his/her butt on the field.  What about weapons qualification?  Do you shoot 40 out of 40 every time?  No but that doesn't mean you didn't try.  Did you max out your promotion points before pinning on E6?  Probably not but that doesn't mean you accepted the bear minimum; you probably busted your butt to reach the cut off.<div><br></div><div>So I don't see how people can sit there and say others are accepting to be mediocre because they don't agree that every leader should score a 300 on the APFT or get 40 out of 40 on their primary weapon or max out their promotion points.   </div>

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Apr 18 at 2014 4:53 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Fri, 18 Apr 2014 16:53:06 -0400

I dont recall a single standard being changed. I hear people complaining about standards being high, as they should. If they weren't complaining I'd be wondering if that standard was really high enough.

I wouldn't take my Soldiers on a run and then at the end of the run not one of them complained about how hard it was. I'd feel like I didn't break them off enough. I want them ready to chapter out of the Army at the end of that run and tell me how much they hate me. Until after chow then they are proud of themselves.

Soldier's complaining about standards lets me know that they are something worthy of aspiring to. Anyone who runs the 2 mile run and is not complaining at the end, didn't run hard enough.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2014 5:38 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 18 Apr 2014 17:38:09 -0400

There is a minimum standard for a reason. It's not so people can have an "out" not to perform to their absolute best ability. As many people have said already, we are not all on the same level of physical fitness, for various reasons, mainly due to injuries and/or general wear and tear. All the minimum says is that this is the absolute lowest level you should perform at, in order to be effective and an asset. This is the same with the GT score, or any other minimum standard. I would argue with you last statement that doing the bare minimum makes someone a detriment. I will agree that you should give 110% at any tasks, but I've know people that exceed the standard, specifically on APFTs, scoring 300 consistently, who are lousy leaders. I would argue that those soldiers that do not know how to manage, or lack interpersonal skills, or that can not teach and follow....things that you do not learn by an APFT, are detriments....but that's just an opinion.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2014 11:24 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 18 Apr 2014 23:24:00 -0400

I'd say that's 75% of the Army thats only in to get by. There is a lot of good soldiers who know their job to a T but are in the Army to just get by. But there's also people in the Army who are all about 670-1, 600-9, 6-22, APFT and weapons but know jack squat about their job or are lazy and don't do it and shame out and some are in the leader position that lead bad exapmle. So they must do it to just get by to. Who's the bad guy there? It's rare to see people with both qualities if you ask me and really push themselves on everything.

But as far as me, I do my do my best ( but not go to extreme like getting 300 APFT) and take everything serious, like when doing training and pretend it to be real. But one problem I see that should be fixed is the motivation and negativity and not so much the only in to get by. All I hear all the time is complain complain complain which effects moral at every level.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2014 12:02 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 00:02:22 -0400

I don't think any leader condones mediocrity. But at the same time as leaders we have the responsibility to know our Soldiers and what challenges and limits they have and judge them based on that and of course performance. That's why we are supposed to use a total Soldier concept because even the Army recognizes we all have strengths and weakness, not everyone can be a Super Star.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2014 1:14 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 01:14:52 -0400

Its a lack of true compassion for your co workers. Selfishness! If you only aspire to do the minimum (and im not just talking PT) then you truly do not value the life or your comrades. People are content on getting by as long as they are comfortable. The do not care how it will affect anyone else. That SSG is the simple truth.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2014 6:40 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 18:40:03 -0400

110 GT is too high? Yikes.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Jul 18 at 2014 5:11 PM

MSG Brad Sand — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 17:11:20 -0400

You are right, but so are some of the people in their replies. We have to look at the whole soldier. Not just PT score, ETC. I think you will see I have stated this for as long as I have been posting on RP.

Response by SSG Glenn Loving made Jul 21 at 2014 11:53 AM

SSG Glenn Loving — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 11:53:30 -0400

It is not about lowering the standard it is like in high school and all the cool kids hung out so you have some one that is exceptional at athletics and scores real high and people start using that as the standard but like what has been said before what about he ability to do the job how can you help that young soldier who's pay is messed up and all they are told is well that happen to me when I got here like it is normal but that same person that can do a 300 pt score cannot research the way to fix a persons pay it is amazing yes in the military you need to be fit and you need to be able to bullets down range effectually but in my case I am pretty sure when someone roles into my E/R bay in a bad cardiac rhythm the thing on that soldiers mind is I wonder if this nurse scored high on his PT test or shout above marksman? No I am pretty sure is will he be able to save me because I am not ready to die.

Response by SSG Steven Borders made Jul 22 at 2014 9:25 AM

SSG Steven Borders — Tue, 22 Jul 2014 09:25:48 -0400

I hate to say it but the Army standard is 180, 60 in each event. That means you passed the APFT. It doesn't hurt to strive to do better on the PT test. I for one try my hardest every time.

I still remember all the hoops I had to jump through when going to WLC because I did not score 70 in each event. I had a bad day that day, we are all allowed those every now and again.

I am not saying PT isn't good for you. We still need to fit but you can still be fit as a fiddle and score a 180.

Just my thoughts.

Response by CPT Jacob Swartout made Sep 6 at 2014 12:04 PM

CPT Jacob Swartout — Sat, 06 Sep 2014 12:04:46 -0400

Read some good views on this topic in this forum. Hopefully leaders at every level just influence Soldiers to excel at their jobs, PT, and personal goals while in the military. A sincere conversation may just be what they need to change their outlook in life.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2014 3:30 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Sep 2014 15:30:17 -0400

I think it goes deeper than just PT. If you look at many aspect of the military, you will find plenty that shows a lowered standard. Even in my short time in, I have noticed that a good percentage of junior personnel seem to have a sense of entitlement to them and this carries over to there lack of work ethic, which leads to issues such as PT and weight standards not being met. Then, when you try and hold people up to the standard, you get disciplined and are labeled the asshole by everyone. Also, one thing I have noticed in the navy is a lot of senior enlisted personnel will do everything they can to dodge PT standards, then bitch at those below them who cannot meet the standard, creating a hostile environment and people who think that they do not have to maintain the standard since their superiors do not meet it. /Rant

This is a sore subject with me right now.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Sep 26 at 2014 2:15 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 14:15:01 -0400

If 180 is the standard, then that is the standard (and remember, "standard" means the minimum that EVERYONE must meet). 300 is a good goal to strive for, but it is not the standard. If we thought everyone could or more importantly should score 300, then why is that not the standard instead....? The bar has to be set somewhere and it has to be realistic.

I think what is more important is the individual is expert at doing their job. For an infantryman, scoring a 300 on their APFT may very well be part of being expert at doing their job. But remember, not everyone is an infantryman and does not need the competencies that infantrymen need.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2014 11:56 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 23:56:35 -0400

I wouldn't say that the standards have changes but the expectations and norms have. I was talking to my PSG today about this. I believe the NCO Corps took a hit. I believe that a professional force was molded into a war fighting force and we are slowly coming back to be a professional force. Soldiers will be required to met the standards or face separation. It is coming to the point where if there is just one issue in their records they may also be separated. I know it is a very difficult situation but this will only create a lean professional army.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 3 at 2014 6:21 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Oct 2014 18:21:32 -0400

I agree everyone should be above the standard if they can. However, you have to have a baseline for a standard to exist in the first place otherwise what defines doing better than the standard. Standards are set as the baseline for what is considered an acceptable metric to meet the needs of your service. You can't punish someone for meeting the standards. You can punish for being below and reward those who rise significantly above.

You can have someone who is a gym nut and scores max points but be dirtbag and incompetent at their job. You can have someone who is exceptional at their job maintains standards and is a better asset in the long run. Of course someone who can max PT and be exemplary in their duties. Those are the ones who usually go further.

Response by Cpl Chris Rice made Oct 7 at 2014 5:21 PM

Cpl Chris Rice — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 17:21:51 -0400

Not to bust into an obviously Army discussion with a Marine Corps POV, but I had this Gunny (How many Marine Corps stories start like this?) every time that an NCO would bemoan the reduction in standards would become irate. This was because for the most part in the Marine Corps the standards remained unchanged, and if you were wasting time bitching about it, than you were the problem (This is not a statement on the OP); as you should be enforcing them.

Moral of the story, if you want to raise the standard, get out there and raise it. If you just want to complain, well you are the problem.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2014 6:25 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 18:25:51 -0400

1SG Private RallyPoint Member, I think that's a great question. I submit it's a trend in society: "Everybody's a winner," which drops the standard to the lowest common denominator. That's what I thought when I read your post.

Response by LTC Scott O'Neil made Oct 10 at 2014 8:43 AM

LTC Scott O'Neil — Fri, 10 Oct 2014 08:43:49 -0400

True leaders set the example and strive for perfection, those who are willing to settle for the standard, par or a C and do so without trying to excel are not leaders. Leaders never settle and when the time come that they no longer can set the standard or they are willing to settle for mediocre then it is time to remove themselves from a leadership role and leave the military. People who are not willing to excel are a handicap to a unit, they are leaders who get soldiers, airmen and sailors killed. PT is done to keep ones body honed to its physical peak, and when you body is in shape your mind follows suite. If a leader is willing to allow themselves to slide on a standard then they maybe willing to allow a subordinate or the unit to slide in their proficiency, thus promoting instant un-readiness. Un-Readiness or being un-trained inhibits mission accomplishment, increases casualties on the battlefield and causes not only failure in the individual but also in the unit and the units to the left, right, front and behind. the domino effect can cause catastrophic failure.
Read the NCO Creed, The Officer's oath, ask a Medal of Honor Winner or anyone awarded a medal for courage or heroism if they were willing to settle for MEDIOCR. I will bet they never settled for just making the standard they strive to set the example and lead from the front. Leaders never settle they strive to excel they live for the challenge, they set the example for others to emulate.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2014 12:29 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Oct 2014 12:29:37 -0400

Isn't "mediocre" basically the definition of "standard"?

Response by LTC Mark Gavula made Oct 10 at 2014 4:38 PM

LTC Mark Gavula — Fri, 10 Oct 2014 16:38:25 -0400

If you were a tanker I am sure you would not accept the minimum score on your tank qualification. What is the minimum standard for diagnosing illnesses correctly? 60 % of the time?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2014 4:52 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Oct 2014 16:52:11 -0400

1SG Private RallyPoint Member I knew a friend from the Missile Silos of the Titan II Program. He admitted was to the hospital to lose weight which did not happen. He was not overweight but he had a large frame and muscular. So the weight issue may be at best, subjective. I ran the 1 1/2 in 7:45 and sports everywhere I went and was slim but some people have physiological factors that preclude their ability to fight the weight problem.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2014 5:09 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Oct 2014 17:09:06 -0400

We can attempt to influence the standard, but we cannot directly change it. That is unless you are one of the few that sit in that position and have the direct influence..totally different discussion.

A leader must hold their Soldiers to the standard. Meaning, the must AT LEAST meet that standard. I like to take the "Keep raising the bar" approach. Always challenge your Soldiers to exceed the Army standard..Why? When they go to school and given that APFT and the grader had a bad morning, you may need those extra push-ups and sit ups.

Same said about GT scores. Below 110? Challenge your Soldiers to improve that. Counsel them to that effect. Same can be said on any standard in the army..set the bar. If you motivate your Soldiers and they are successful at exceeding a goal that you set, you will have some great quantifiable bullet statements. This all ties into self improvement. PT, GT score pick an area. I always think about an old school Infantry analogy. When do you finish improving your fighting position? Never! You constantly work on improving it.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 31 at 2014 6:55 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 31 Dec 2014 18:55:42 -0500

I tend to agree that some, not many, would fall into you argument. I was at a base when I overheard a AF MAJ complain that one of her Airmen couldn't get promoted due failing their fitness test. Well in that case he didn't deserve it. It is the cold hard truth. It is an expectation that we all have.

Even if your line of work doesn't require it you still need to be in shape. You PT score counts. We someone has a high score it shows me that they strive to maintain their physical fitness and put in their time. I know it is not needed for a desk clerk but that is not the point. A soldier that strides if excellence in all areas shows me the character of that person. If they only care about their job performance and lack in fitness it shows me their priorities. Being in shape is part of being a soldier.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 31 at 2014 7:35 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 31 Dec 2014 19:35:46 -0500

1SG Private RallyPoint Member, I am sure you will get plenty of people on here that say the standard is the standard and that's the only measurement. Funny...then why does the scale go to 300? If passing WLC is good enough...why a commandant's list? An honor grad? If passing the GT test is good enough...why have points after that? It's to separate the best and those who are above average. The kinds of people we want leading the military. It's not just about PT and GT tests either. The change in the NCOER is going to put a nail in a few people and you'll really hear some complaining then. If your standard is 180 and you're happy to achieve it, and that's the general opinion you have about a few things, you'll probably find yourself in the middle of the pack. That means you will be "at risk" for promotion, because you weren't selected as one of the best. Is a "Center of Mass" ok? Yeah. It's the standard. When it comes to promoting people however...we start at the top...not in the center.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2015 10:23 AM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 01 Jan 2015 10:23:28 -0500

1SG Private RallyPoint Member, I'm going to jump right past the APFT issue. That seems to be a hot-button topic and there seem to be strong feelings on both sides of the issue. I maxed the PT test for a while in the Army, but not for 30 years. I did always try my best, and I think that's enough for that.

On the overall topic of standards, though, I agree with you 100%. I do think that we, as a society, have slipped into a sense of "I'm okay, you're okay" and some of that has bled over into our military. That's to be expected, I guess, because everyone in the military comes from our society.

I see this in schools because my wife is a special education teacher. She tells me about little Johnny and little Suzie who can't read or do basic math in the 7th or 8th grade. And guess what? Johnny and Suzie are being promoted with their peers to 8th and 9th grade. I see that as a downward spiral. There's a good quote from Seinfeld (and probably elsewhere) that goes something like "You're all winners!" That's the mentality, and I think it's wrong.

I didn't believe that when I was in the Army, and my mind hasn't changed since I retired from the Army. To go back to the PT test (which I said I wouldn't do) ... If one Soldier maxes the APFT and his "battle" scores 180, then the Soldier who scored 300 should be recognized (if anyone is recognized). That is a no brainer, isn't it? The same holds true - for me at least - for aspects of the job, putting in extra hours, extra effort, etc. I think that's part of the core of our military - to strive to be all you can be. And by the way, that's why I think that particular Army slogan is the best slogan since the Army has been using slogans.

Vince Lombardi said, "All right Mister, let me tell you what winning means: you're willing to go longer, work harder, give more than anyone else." That is the essence of what motivates, or should motivate, every military member and veteran to do and be their absolute best. The new lingo is to "represent," and we all should be doing our best to "represent" our Service (present or past), our military, and our country.

Bottom line, 1SG Private RallyPoint Member, is that we are NOT all winners. And striving to be the distinguished honor graduate, to make the commandant's list, to contribute your best to everything you do is commendable. It's what right looks like in this old soldier's book. It's something we ALL should be striving for.

Pardon me while I towel off ... I'm a little passionate about this topic. And Happy New Year to you!

Response by 1SG Nick Baker made Jan 1 at 2015 11:05 AM

1SG Nick Baker — Thu, 01 Jan 2015 11:05:49 -0500

We have a society that give every kid an award for just showing up. Everyone or team cannot win first place or get a trophy. If you come in second; you need to evaluate, make changes, and compete again. The military is just a reflection of society, but historically has been a test bed for change.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Jan 1 at 2015 11:49 AM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Thu, 01 Jan 2015 11:49:44 -0500

PT first: Everyone should be fit. For me, 180 isn't the standard, it's the least to qualify. And I believe everyone should be physically fit. Don't forget, our past engagements there was no front lines and everyone needed to be able to perform as an infantryman.

MOS: I remember SQT, and believe the army failed us as soldiers and the army as a whole when it was taken away. No more was proficiency placed on doing our jobs.

And I believe this has a direct effect on the above: Not everyone is a leader! I firmly believe the SPC ranks need to be returned. I've seen people wearing stripes who were a whiz at their MOS, but I wouldn't let them lead a duck to water.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Jan 1 at 2015 12:18 PM

SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS — Thu, 01 Jan 2015 12:18:56 -0500

1SG Private RallyPoint Member Standards are established to rate personnel who excel and challenge those who don't. Simple concept, but society has watered this down and the products of that water down society are now fully engrained in all professions, including ours.

When children are told score doesn't matter, passing is excelling, and success only has one level, we have established a culture where excelling is no longer required.

On the opposite side of this are raters (in the civilian and military world) who use a "bell curve" approach to rating. This means if you are rating five Soldiers only one may be rated as among the best or excellent three as fully capable or successful and one as marginal or meets the standard. This system does not reward true performance but instead pigeon holes personnel into ratings. This system results in employees whose morale is poor and who do not care or feel valued when they exceed the standard consequently they have no motivation to exceed the standard.

The there are personnel who receive false ratings or extended ratings. These personnel are convinced they are better than they are and are shocked when they are accurately rated.

Standards must be met, enforced, and personnel trained and educated as well as informed on what the standards are, how to meet them, and how to exceed them. Job knowledge is no excuse for not meeting APFT or AR 600-9 standards. While I believe in a whole person concept, I embrace the whole person meeting the minimum standard.

You may have an excellent Soldier from a technical perspective who barely passes APFT, but always passes. The NCOER is a good tool for rating that Soldier. If the same Soldier fails the APFT, but is not flagged, received a favorable NCOER, is PCSd, and receives an award when PCSing to his or her next unit is upon arrival immediately flagged for APFT, we as NCOs have failed that Soldier.

NCOs enforce the standard. That is one of our primary missions on behalf of our Commanders.

PT matters, Body Fat Matters, technical and tactical proficiency matter, good order and discipline matter. It all matters. Depending upon your MOS one may need to be more emphasized than another. But minimum standards are the minimum.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2015 12:40 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 01 Jan 2015 12:40:11 -0500

Here is one. Our job is to destroy the enemy. Why is so little emphasis placed on marksmanship vs PT? I know many have seen it. Punish a soldier for being off by barely a second on a run, then later that week give some NCO or officer or soldier 80 rds to qualify marksman on m4, or more commonly they get 40 rds, don't qualify and nothing bad happens.

Response by CW5 Jim Steddum made Jan 1 at 2015 1:30 PM

CW5 Jim Steddum — Thu, 01 Jan 2015 13:30:04 -0500

This is an excellent discussion topic. As an instructor, I talk about this with my students in every class (WO candidates, WOILE, and WOSSE). In my 26 years, I have also seen a shift from 'striving for excellence' to 'good enough.' Why do leaders allow this good enough mentality? As a young sergeant, my JAG Offices let everyone know what the high PT score, low PT score, and office average (for both enlisted and officers). There was an implied office or unit standard well in excess of the minimum Army standard. Failing to meet the the unit standard meant remedial training.

This is the same for duty performance as well. if a Soldier, or officer for that matter, was not up to par, they were counseled and provided all of the tools they needed to improve. At some point, some were let go. There is nothing wrong with that; some people are just not meant for this line of work under the stresses that we must be able to endure.

This 'just good enough' mediocrity that is rampant in society, schools, and even in some units of the military is disastrous to our economy, our national pride, and our effectiveness as a world leader. Leaders at all levels must take the hard right over the lazy, emotionally less stressful tolerance we are accepting now.

As every good Sergeant Major used to say, 'without correction you are setting a new standard.' We have allowed the new standard of mediocrity to take over. I like to say, we do not have subordinates, we have junior leaders. Push your junior leaders to be better than you.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2015 2:50 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 02 Jan 2015 02:50:22 -0500

I'm not trying to poke fun of your post, but this was relayed to me while in college and I feel it is worthy of sharing.

What do you call someone graduating at at the top of the class vs bottom of the class in Med. School?
Ans: Both are called doctors.
What is the difference between an 'A', 'B', and 'C' student?
A students make great professors.
B Students make great doctors.
C students make a lot of money.

The point of this is we all have internal and external motivations. We shouldn't judge people on whether they want to get a 300 or want to get a 180...we should judge them by if we'd want them next to us in combat. Would you want the 300 PT stud or th e honor grad next to you...? Maybe, or maybe not.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2015 2:54 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 02 Jan 2015 02:54:58 -0500

When you enter a command, someone should introduce you to the commander and he should explain his expectations....which will always be meet HW and pass all areas of the PT with 75% or above

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2015 1:21 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 02 Jan 2015 13:21:59 -0500

SSG, I don't believe meeting the standards is a detriment to the force. In fact, meeting the standard is simply the minimum effort a Soldier needs to maintain to continue their career in the military. Those who choose to exceed above the minimum are rewarded through promotions above the zone, placed in leadership positions and given opportunities to specialized schools. It is my opinion, that a the duty of a leader is to motivate soldiers to exceed the minimum by showing them the benefits and rewards. We all know there are those "that will" and "will not" we must show that the will to do is worth it!

Response by MSG Daniel Talley made Jan 2 at 2015 3:38 PM

MSG Daniel Talley — Fri, 02 Jan 2015 15:38:02 -0500

Thank you for asking this question! In the 90's during the draw down the phrase "no more task foce smiths" spread throughout the Army. I submit continued justification of mediocracy in order to avoid hard work, offense, or political correctness errors will cause another task force smith. When will we understand combat has changed, but we are not AT&T, GM or Disneyland. We win in combat or die.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 4:50 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 16:50:13 -0400

From my experience, it all started going down hill since 9/11. It has a lot to do with our leadership being too concentrated on being politically correct rather than making our Military strong.

Response by SFC Craig Dalen made Mar 24 at 2016 3:01 PM

SFC Craig Dalen — Thu, 24 Mar 2016 15:01:54 -0400

The moral of this is with what the Army is going to now should weed out the complainers and the minimal achievers because they won't compete with their peers and after too long will get a pink slip. Don't stress or waste your time worrying about what you can't change and lead from the front...

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2016 10:53 AM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Mar 2016 10:53:29 -0400

If meeting the standard isn't enough, and exceeding the standard becomes the new expectation, then you've literally created a new standard.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Mar 24 at 2018 3:16 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Sat, 24 Mar 2018 15:16:25 -0400

Probably because the society doesn't live to a standard- safe places, no inflammatory images, everyone getting a ribbon or trophy for just showing up. Their is even a kids soccer league who will play without a ball, to cut down on possible injuries.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2018 11:24 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 24 Mar 2018 23:24:39 -0400

Because it’s easier

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2020 8:24 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 10 May 2020 20:24:13 -0400

I'm with LTC Paul Labrador on this one. A standard has to be somewhere and if the Army Standard is 180 with 60 in each event then that is the standard. Now do I think that a Soldier who is fully capable if scoring higher on the APFT but chooses to do the bare minimum should be the first to be a 1SG or be the first to be excepted to a certain school should be, then the answer is a big NO. The standard is there to be the minimum standard, that's it. A leader should always try to exceed the standard. Whether it is at their occupation or fitness.