Why haven't we changed our service rifle?

2015-03-16T17:28:17-04:00

I have only been in the US Army for about 6 years now. However, since I have been in the Army we have used the M16/M4 as our service rifle. As the most powerful military in the world, why are we using weapons from the Vietnam Era? The M16 entered service in 1964 which puts it over 50 years old, and the M4 Variant of the M16 entered service in 1994 which puts it over 20 years old. Why haven't we changed our service weapon to something more reliable? I think we should change to the SCAR or the FAMAS. What do you think?

Note: Image added by RP Staff

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Mar 16 at 2015 5:42 PM

2015-03-16T17:42:34-04:00

We still use Ma Deuce from 1933....

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2015 5:45 PM

2015-03-16T17:45:23-04:00

To put things in perspective: most units are mtoed m4's but utilize the m16 as an "in lueu of" item. Why do you think this is? Think of how grand a scale of acquisitions it would be to field the scar. Your dates are probably accurate for the base systems. However, how many modifications have they gone through.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2015 6:11 PM

2015-03-16T18:11:47-04:00

I think my weapon has been as reliable as my efforts to maintain it.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Mar 16 at 2015 6:32 PM

2015-03-16T18:32:47-04:00

I'm not sure what you mean by "more reliable." The AR~ Platform is extremely reliable. Additionally, it's modular, inexpensive, simple to maintain, light weight, and durable.

Yes, it's "old" but so is the 1911, and the M9. But new doesn't make something better.

However there have been several innovations, including going from the A1 to the A2 going to the M4, not to mention upgrades to sights and optics.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Mar 16 at 2015 6:38 PM

2015-03-16T18:38:42-04:00

Be careful how you talk about that weapon, it is almost human. If you can put rounds in the black at 500 yards with iron sights I'd say it is doing a decent job.

_______________________________________________________________________
The Marine Rifleman's Creed

This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.

My rifle, without me, is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true.
must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will...

My rifle and I know that what counts in war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...

My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel.

I will keep my rifle clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will...

Before God, I swear this creed. My rifle and I are the defenders of my country.

We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life.

So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace!

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2015 7:15 PM

2015-03-16T19:15:58-04:00

The simplest way to maybe put this is 'If it isn't broke, don't fix it." The common scar and famas is also a 5.56mm same as the m4/m16. Therefore the current argument is more looks then effectiveness. Though i believe at some point there was a plan to phase out the M4/M16 for the HK417 which chambers the 7.62x51mm thus a more powerful service rifle. However looking it up now it doesn't seem to be in effect as of yet.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Mar 16 at 2015 7:37 PM

2015-03-16T19:37:35-04:00

If ain't broke don't fix it!!! The M-16 may have time in service but so does the B-52, M-2, C-130, U-2, etc...Do you see my drift all of them still performing missions and killing the bad guys.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2015 8:34 PM

2015-03-16T20:34:41-04:00

King Lear, Shakespeare, "Striving to better, oft we mar what's well"

Given the all around cost to completely replace the weapon system, it needs to not just be better, it needs to be dramatically better than the system it replaces. Both weapons you mentioned use the same 5.56 round so no appreciable benefit accrues there. So the benefit would have to come from somewhere else like cost.
SOCOM, cancelled purchasing and removed the SCAR mk16 from its inventory in 2011 because of the cost. They might purchase the mk17 if it can re-chambered in 5.56. (That information is from 2011, things may have changed)

Given the investment the military as a whole has placed in the M16 family, there are also large sunk costs to consider as well. The infrastructure behind building and maintaining the system. Training, armories, accessories, spare parts, etc.

I'm not a being man, but I'm willing to say that the M16 family of weapons is going to be in use until laser/plasma rifles or hand held rail guns become reality.

You might want to consider the age of other weapon systems. TSgt Joshua Copeland mentioned the M-2(1933). I'm sure you can guess when the M1911 joined. The Abrams is from the early 1970's. M109 Paladin 155mm self propelled, is another Vietnam era system, about to receive another system update.
Ask an member of the air force when the B-52 entered service. Even better, ask when it's supposed to leave service.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2015 10:06 PM

2015-03-16T22:06:08-04:00

https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/best-improvement-for-the-next-battle-rifle?

Capt Porter started a thread on a similar subject somewhat recently. If you're interested in doing some learning, I'd suggest reading it. Of course, I'll advocate my post, which I won't bother duplicating here, as well as a link to a war is boring blog on this subject.

Response by Cpl Mark McMiller made Mar 16 at 2015 11:01 PM

2015-03-16T23:01:55-04:00

The FAMAS? Development of the FAMAS started in 1967; it's as old as the M16. And, arguably, the only problem with the M16 is the terminal ballistics of the 5.56mm round. But the FAMAS and the SCAR both fire that same 5.56mm, so I'm not sure either is a improvement. If it were up to me, I'd buy some LWRC 6.8mm rifles.

Response by SPC Benjamin Smith made Mar 16 at 2015 11:08 PM

2015-03-16T23:08:21-04:00

No need to "upgrade" something that works well and would cost the taxpayers an arm and a leg. Not to mention that the majority of warfare is no longer waged with small arms. My currently assigned weapon, an M16A1 converted to A2 (you can see where auto was dremeled out and replaced with semi), still puts accurate fire down range with zero malfunctions.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2015 1:14 AM

2015-03-17T01:14:00-04:00

What can I say we are suckers for the oldies...
You know the FAMAS and SCAR are different when fired in a video game right? Very few differences in real life.....

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2015 11:56 AM

2015-04-10T11:56:38-04:00

I happen to be a huge fan of the M4. The M4 was an example of taking the M16 and saying "How can we improve upon this design" I do think they need to continue that trend, but there is no reason to bring in a completely new player just yet.

Response by SFC Jeff L. made Apr 10 at 2015 11:58 AM

2015-04-10T11:58:42-04:00

Not sure what's "more reliable" than a weapon system that has been used effectively by men and women the world over for more than 50 years.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Apr 10 at 2015 1:30 PM

2015-04-10T13:30:56-04:00

The SCAR isn't that much different of a platform....except the price tag. The FAMAS is almost just as old....and FRENCH.

Response by SFC Michael Jackson, MBA made Apr 10 at 2015 4:46 PM

2015-04-10T16:46:47-04:00

We haven't changed it because it's still effective!

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2015 11:15 AM

2015-04-12T11:15:41-04:00

The M2 .50 cal machine gun has been in continuous service since 1933, age has nothing to do with a good operating system. The SCAR-H (7.62mm) is a good rifle, hands down better than the M-14. The SCAR-L (5.56mm) however, is simply not better than the M4 and the FAMAS is simply garbage. The M4 of today is totally different than the one fielded in the early 90's though it looks the same at first glance. The Army is upgrading the M4MWS (the current version fielded to the Army) to the SOF version of the M4A1 that has more than 80 improvements to the design. It handles heat stress better and I've carried the M4A1 on 4 combat tours and multiple other deployments without any issue. On an average year I'll put tens of thousands of rounds through my rifle and I usually go about 500 rounds or more between cleanings.

*I'm not really a PFC.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Apr 22 at 2015 2:46 PM

2015-04-22T14:46:20-04:00

The lowest bidding contractor has yet to be found and the lobbyists, special interest groups, retired generals, and defense contractors are still beating each other up over who gets what cut of the profits.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made May 17 at 2015 7:15 PM

2015-05-17T19:15:31-04:00

I have always been told, "lowest bidder".

Response by SGT Terry Ryan made May 17 at 2015 9:30 PM

2015-05-17T21:30:43-04:00

If it ain't broke don't fix it. The M16 and M4 are great platforms. Very reliable and accurate. Light weight with relatively light ammo. Not sure if I'd want to be lugging around a butt load of .308

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2015 12:14 AM

2015-05-18T00:14:15-04:00

Our SWAT team and entry team use the M4 with a 9" barrel.. MP5 as well... Small, compact, reliable... It is old as far as design but works quite well

Response by CPL Timothy Coffey made Feb 28 at 2016 9:25 PM

2016-02-28T21:25:01-05:00

Be glad you are in service, as the economy is bad, to get new rifles for everyone would cost more than a fortune. U.S. Currency is already being printed too much. What we have it not so out dated or bad when compared to other rifles such as the AK-47. Yes there is small advantages, but the basic soldier don't need special weapons as much as say a Seal team. Get in touch with the world economy as it is just as much important to war, as is hostile intentions. wars can be money driven, or lack of.

Response by SSG Harry Herres made Jun 25 at 2019 11:26 PM

2019-06-25T23:26:54-04:00

The only problem with the 16/4 is marksmanship. Spray and pray does not cut it. No matter how much ammo you have. If you can not hit your target, you are doing nothing.

Response by 1SG Alan Boggs made Oct 30 at 2020 9:39 PM

2020-10-30T21:39:53-04:00

For the record, the M4 has been upgraded to the M4A1

Response by MSgt Mark Bucher made Oct 31 at 2020 12:54 AM

2020-10-31T00:54:22-04:00

No, not gonna touch it, not gonna...