Why is a recent PT card and Weapons card required for an ETS/PCS Award?

2016-03-31T11:02:11-04:00

I have recently (last 2 years) noticed a trend of Unit Leadership requiring PT and Weapons cards for PCS/ETS awards. What ever happened to awarding soldiers for their merit(s), time-in-service, contributions, and accomplishments/achievements? Why has it been relegated to their performance in the last six-months of their service or time in the unit?

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Mar 31 at 2016 11:06 AM

2016-03-31T11:06:21-04:00

Good Question.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2016 11:09 AM

2016-03-31T11:09:37-04:00

I'd say a probable cause is Soldiers showing up to their next unit in violation of their orders which require them to be in good physical condition. This way, the Soldier has an incentive to do the right thing, which is a societal norm these days. (the need to incentivize doing the right thing)

Have you also noticed that Soldiers are required to conduct a height and weight at in-processing now? Also relatively recent (last 2 years). Coincidence? I think not. Just incentive to do the right thing.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Mar 31 at 2016 11:09 AM

2016-03-31T11:09:53-04:00

I know PT RIP is normally required on the AF side as well.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2016 11:15 AM

2016-03-31T11:15:51-04:00

I believe that it has more to do with what type of award one will receive. An example would be if a Soldier is put in for a MSM and only has a APFT score of 180, it would never be approved.

During my last deployment, we were required to submit Weapons qualification score cards, APFT score cards, HT/WT sheets, and I believe even their last NCOER. This was for not only for End of Tour awards, but for valor awards as well. Is was as if they were trying to find any reason they could to keep a Soldier from receiving an award.

I do believe that standards should be met, but as you mentioned, Soldiers should be awarded based off of their performance/merit.

Response by SSG Daniel Deiler made Mar 31 at 2016 11:16 AM

2016-03-31T11:16:01-04:00

I don't believe that it has anything to do with their performance on the APFT or range. I believe the reason it is done is to have verification that the individual passed/qualified and that they are within tolerance of the established Army standard.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Mar 31 at 2016 11:22 AM

2016-03-31T11:22:12-04:00

PT card is usually asked for to ensure soldier is eligible for an award and not flagged. No real reason to ask for a Weapons card unless command has a local policy that soldier must be qualed on their weapon.

Response by CSM Michael Chavaree made Mar 31 at 2016 11:45 AM

2016-03-31T11:45:03-04:00

Because as a Soldier you are constantly being assesed, I have a high index of suspicion Soldiers were performing sub-par when the light was turned on at the end of the tunnel.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2016 11:55 AM

2016-03-31T11:55:51-04:00

The weapons qualification has absolutely zero to do with award eligibility. The unit is responsible for maintaining individual Soldier records, to include the 705. In my opinion, asking the recommender/Soldier to provide a copy is wasteful and presents the impression that the unit PAC clerk and/or BN S-1 is too lazy to do their job.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2016 11:59 AM

2016-03-31T11:59:03-04:00

I've noticed the scores determines what award they will be put in for.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Mar 31 at 2016 12:32 PM

2016-03-31T12:32:06-04:00

There is no requirement to give an ETS/PCS award, though it is a de facto standard in most places. Like any award you cannot be flagged and receive an award so if you are a NO-GO on any of these standards you are by reg, ineligible to receive said award. When I left active duty in 1993, I was overweight by 10lbs on my last height/weight, 2 months prior to my departure. Bn Cdr called me in, showed me the DA638 and said make weight in a month or this goes in the trash.

Response by CPT Jim Schwebach made Mar 31 at 2016 12:32 PM

2016-03-31T12:32:51-04:00

By definition PCS/ETS awards are justified based on overall performance during an extended period of time. So that means that if I were to recommend my E8 Operations NCO for an MSM at the end of his 25 year career PT and weapons cards showing acceptable performance levels would be attached. Makes no difference that he served multiple combat tours, was promoted ahead of his contemporaries multiple times and walks to work across the river. In 2016 he failed to qualify with his M9 so he gets an ARCOM recognizing his service.

Some in leadership positions do things right, leaders do the right things but the best leaders do the right things right. Whoever has promulgated and allowed this sort of rule is in a leadership position. Those leaders who are in the latter categories are far more creative and concerned for our people.They would ensure another MSM would go where it belonged, on the chest our outstanding Soldier.

Response by MSG Michael Caldwell made Mar 31 at 2016 12:34 PM

2016-03-31T12:34:50-04:00

The pure reason for all of this is because you have service members out there that believe that they deserve an award just for breathing. I've had service members hand me their award recommendation to be submitted and tell me that I have to do it.

Then when I start to read it they tell that it's all correct and I just need to sign it. I a service member challenge me not only on his award but on his NCOER, when I asked for proof of his accomplishments, he used the open door policy to see the COL, with no advantage on his part.

An award is something that a person is put in for with no knowledge of it being put in, for doing something above and beyond the call of duty. So if everyone did his/her job the command wouldn't have to ask for all this information. Besides isn't that what DTMS is for?

Response by SFC Craig Dalen made Mar 31 at 2016 2:16 PM

2016-03-31T14:16:33-04:00

It is to ensure that the Soldier is within tolerance as they leave and they are not sent to the next duty station to catch them up

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2016 2:19 PM

2016-03-31T14:19:54-04:00

If you are ETSing i have no idea why anyone would care about those. Civilians dont care about your PT score lol

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Mar 31 at 2016 3:14 PM

2016-03-31T15:14:55-04:00

When an award recommendation is finalized in the orderly room leadership always looks at the PT/Weapons Qualification, for many units they have to be attached to the folder when forwarded to the approving authority. A failure in either area could lower the award type or any award all together. PCS/ETS awards are subjective at best, and based on the Service members overall performance, level of responsibility and accomplishments among other things, for leaders it includes how well their unit does. Would it be fair if you and I equal in every way, both receive an ARCOM for PCS and you failed your PT or weapons qual while I maxed both?

I am relatively sure that these records checks are not new to your organization, I would guess that you were just unaware.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2016 10:42 PM

2016-03-31T22:42:51-04:00

Both of these should be maintained by the S3 at the BN and BDE levels and with the training NCO at the company level within DTMS. If ensuring there is no existing flag is the issue, the company and BN S1 should have that as well

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2016 4:19 PM

2016-04-01T16:19:46-04:00

Great question. I have always told my Soldiers that their weapons and APFT are two things that they absolutely control. Awards should always be based on achievements. Now if your leadership is ensuring that they are not "flagged" because a Record APFT was not properly processed, but a weapons card seems a bit odd. However, I know some more Senior leaders who assume that they deserve MSM or higher for PCS awards, but do not do the basics. Depending on the type of award, the last six months may be very valid. Last impressions are as important as first impressions to me.

Response by SSG John Jensen made Apr 3 at 2016 1:31 AM

2016-04-03T01:31:16-04:00

every time when I was PCSing, top or somebody said that my award would follow me, I never got any of those awards - and in the Nat'Guard before GWOT when some one got his "20", it was an excuse for a party, and even if they turned in their TA-50 without telling any one and tried to sneak out the door, some one would scream party time and force them to receive their award for their "20" and there was the bar-b-que and the beer bust. But after GWOT, it was " you're not re-upping, don't let the door hit you on the way out!!" 29 years I did before I got the medical, and I got nothing, other Nat'l Guard Technicians get MSMs after their retirement, I got nothing - but it doesn't matter - I got jump wings you fucking legs - Fuck Yer Day!!

Response by SPC Alex Yukna made Apr 3 at 2016 4:24 AM

2016-04-03T04:24:04-04:00

I couldn't agree more, I was pulled out of the IRR last year 2015 had been IRR since 2013 was immediately deployed and currently still am. (Coming home soon) with that said my end of contract is at the end of my leave for this. I'm no PT stud there was a time I was overweight when I came back managed to drop incredible amount to reach HT-WT but the run no way I could ever pass. Unfortunately we know being constantly deployed run down battered bruised my legs are not what they were and I know trying to pass would just cause injury. (yes Iv seen the medics over and over just get the here's 800mg) I am also a business owner employees etc and me coming home injured would be very very bad since it is a very physical demanding job. (Const. Excavation)

During this tour I was the senior SPC been over a couple times while 98% of said unit had never even thought of deployments, nor unit been deployed in close to 10 years. Being that silent force behind things the gopher problem solver (making drug deals to get things done) mission savior time and time again. This lead to our company doing more in one month than an entire battalion in over a year. Due to the pt and refusal for a profile because I can't prove that running causes me intense pain knee joints giving out after even light jogging shins swelling etc. The end of a career will go with out even a whimper now I'm not a oh give me give me awards because well been there done that got the cluster. If you have subject matter experts who have made significant difference (in my case excavation construction owning my own company) credit should be given where credit is do.

Now if I were some kid straight out of AIT and can't pass ... That's another story fuck that until youv earned and put in your time and destroyed your body no excuse. Now I know il probably get some flack for why didn't you advance past e4 blah blah didnt put in for a board well I never wanted to. Along with hell that EPS list was long. Gave it to guys I knew were going to be career and or worked full time AGR tech etc. that would benifit them and the military a lot more than I. Since I knew I had other plans for success. Haha even though been told time and time again "man if you were a 5 your NCOER would be insane" .... Meh still do the job got the respect with out all them damned DPs.

Weapons qual soldiers should be given licenses to carry buy thier own weapon shoot at thier convience. Here in mass you have to go through your police chief in town for vetting plus background adding military background to that would be great. Create more training between military and local pd together have them go have a shoot off or rang days together on thier time make it fun. Again cohesion between military and local pd, and community especially if they are guard or reserves. Going to the range more often in civilians with buddies from the unit or other units will build cohesion as well. The no pressure the no rush on the line, limited ammo. Maybe even start a program where ammo you purchase for self training is reimbursable? Or like the PD given a monthly allotmnent of rounds for range use. Or local range and range controllers the ammo to be given and supervised at local ranges with ID (cac scan in or rock or somethings?) Not to mention the shooting clubs that would benifit, civilian first time shooters,kids, community connections would be much better. I am a staunch supporter in arming soldiers and veterans since there is more good ones than bad ones and bad guys. Everybody wins.

Yukna Alexander J
Vice chairman to the E4 Mafia

Response by SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint made Apr 3 at 2016 10:25 PM

2016-04-03T22:25:10-04:00

I see nothing wrong with a focus on PT and WPNs...I actually think it is a good idea to have soldiers present their PT and WPN scores at ETS. I think that gets people to remember what is important. PT and WPNs scores are the SOLDIERS responsibility. You can do more PT after work and weekends. You can good shooting on the weekend, but often there is a gun club on post where you can get extra training. (Maybe at your cost, since it was not picked up during work hours.)

I am not a real fan of expected End of Tour awards. Why, you are expected to do good. If you do something great during your tour, you should get an award for that event. I did 7 years in the Marine Corps, then 14 in the Army. I left the Marine Corps with a Sea Service award and two Good Conduct Medals. I left the Army with 5 MSMs. I saw a past SGT MAJ of the Marine Corps...with one MSM. I knew I did not earn those MSMs compared to him. I always believed that my first GCM awarded in the late 1970s was my hardest award earned.

Response by CW4 Brian Haas made Apr 4 at 2016 1:02 AM

2016-04-04T01:02:23-04:00

Perhaps because if you haven't done a PT test or qualified on your weapon, you shouldn't be getting an award for what you haven't done as a basic Soldier.

Response by MSG David Rogers III made Oct 6 at 2016 5:01 PM

2016-10-06T17:01:15-04:00

Another one bites the dust!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2016 8:06 PM

2016-10-06T20:06:46-04:00

It's another example of bureaucratic good idea fairies.