Why is being an officer such a bad thing? "Oh, you are an "officer".

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Sep 2014 23:36:38 -0400

So in my nine years I have heard a lot of things. I thought I heard and saw it all but then again someone dreams up some thing wild. However, throughout my time I swear the most common thing I hear is that "oh you are an officer you wouldn't understand" or "oh you are an officer, let us handle this" or "taking care of Soldiers is NCO business not officers". This is from NCOs and enlisted throughout my time in. It has been while passing by and overheard. It has been other units as well as some of the units I have been in (I have been at company, battalion, and brigade levels).

Why is it so bad to be an officer? What is it about officers that seems to make enlisted and NCOs turn with disgust.

And for those WOs out there, do you get this as well or not so much?

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2014 1:06 AM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 01:06:36 -0400

I can only speak from my own experience. As an NCO, my job was to take the orders given by my officer and enact those orders. If my officer came to me and asked to deal directly with the troops in performing the orders which were given to me, I would feel slighted or insulted that there was a lack of trust or faith in my ability to get the job done. In the hierarchical society which is our armed services, every level has a purpose. The purpose of the NCO is to enact the orders given. The officer has to maintain a higher form of thinking and get the big picture into focus.

I would say that if your NCO's are saying leave it to us, they are taking the responsibility entrusted to them.

Having said all that, if your NCO's are disrespecting you in the performance of their duties, well then that sounds like the kind of thing that a talk with the 1stSgt would fix. I am sure that individual would love to know if any of his NCO's were show disrespect.

Regarding why is so bad to be an officer, only an officer would be able to answer that and it would be my hope that my officer would be taking care of bigger things than that. Perhaps some remedial instruction to the NCO's on the chain of command and due respect is warranted.

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made Sep 2 at 2014 1:58 AM

SSG V. Michelle Woods — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 01:58:51 -0400

Sir, who is turning in disgust at you? Give me their names and I will email them! I got your back :)

Seriously though, I'm going to put some comparisons out there which will shed some light on the view of officers. This is of course generally speaking.

Winston Smith vs. Big Brother
Teacher vs. Principal
Servers vs. Restaurant Manager
PLs vs. Company Commander
Company Commanders vs. Battalion Commanders
Poor kid vs. the well-intended rich kid
Farmer vs. Stockbroker nerd dude :)
Ferris Bueller vs. Principal Rooney

Nobody wants "The Man" around sir, and frankly, officers are "The Man" lol. Even if they don't want to be perceived that way :(

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2014 5:46 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 05:46:22 -0400

Sir, from a 10 year enlisted perspective, it's a stigma of you finishing officer training, receiving commission, several echelons of leadership between you and the lowliest enlisted, saluting, brass vs. stripes, college degree, just to name a few.

Enlisted, particularly juniors tend to gravitate more to those who have just walked in their shoes and around whom they spend more time. They're often prohibited from speaking to officers until they go through their chain of command. But you're an officer, sir, so you wouldn't understand. ;-)

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2014 7:25 AM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 07:25:43 -0400

Sir,

The complaints you are hearing for the most part are not legit, for the lack of better terms it's jealousy. Some people just can't handle when they see some one younger than them in positions of authority. You and the rest of the officers had the discipline to seek self improvement by wash of a post high school education and trained for the positions in which you hold. We do the same on the enlisted side with out the college for most of us. The first few years 2nd LTs are learning the ropes I got it, but we do the same on the enlisted side. Some folks just don't know the value of a leader with operational management skills and how much crap Officers take in those positions. I for one have seen the A** chewing the young officers are subjected to in staff positions and as new commanders, most of the time NCOs get off easy in comparison.

Keep doing what your doing sir, all though you guys are my superiors I consider us all brothers and sisters trying to accomplish goals collectively. Being an active member of this sight sharing experiences and seeking advice speaks directly to the caliber of leader you are. I would challenge the enlisted that say these things to either mentor young officers in the areas they complain about, or get off their butts, go to school, and go to OCS themselves and show all of us how it's done.

Cheers!

Response by SGT Richard H. made Sep 2 at 2014 9:14 AM

SGT Richard H. — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 09:14:47 -0400

LTC Private RallyPoint Member I think "disgust" may be quite a bit too strong of a term. Yes, there are things you probably wouldn't understand unless you've been there, just as there are plenty of things your enlisted subordinates wouldn't understand that you, as an Officer go though or have been through, but I don't think these things should be causing disdain for the fact that you are an Officer.
Personally, I think you would gain a good deal more insight into this question if you were to pose it to an NCO (or several) that you trust to be honest with you, and who knows you on a professional level, such as your 1SG, Platoon Sergeants, or even Squad Leaders. You might just be reading it wrong....or you might find that you need to relinquish more responsibility to them and allow them the opportunity to do their jobs, allowing you to focus more on yours.
I'm not making any assumptions here, just saying that the answers you are looking for might be right in front of you.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2014 9:21 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 09:21:10 -0400

I am an Aviation Technician Warrant, that means I had put on a few years as an NCO prior to becoming an officer. However, the Aviator Warrant, it can vary civilian to private in the Army went straight to flight school. In Aviation field, W1 is most likely just graduated flight school and being treated like an LT. I have had many encounters "you're are an officer" moment, until they found out I used to be an NCO. Back to your question, it's all about attitude regardless of grade. We all have to learn at every level and in every job, nobody is knowing it all. If you are willing to learn and have empathy, not afraid getting your hand dirty, you have won the heart of your Soldiers and the NCO's. The officers that being brush off (including some of our LTC here at work) because being Mr. Know it All and pumping their chest way too much about being an officer. Hate to burst whoever that NCO said to you, but taking care of Soldiers is EVERY leader's job. Hope my insight help. Take care.

Response by CPO Jon Campbell made Sep 2 at 2014 10:05 AM

CPO Jon Campbell — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 10:05:13 -0400

Probalby every NCO has a similar example:

I was overseas for 6 months and when I returned to my unit, we had a new LT. Upon meeting me, he immediately set out to train me on one of the tasks every petty officer learns. As I was seated in front of the computer, the guy stood behind me and reached around me with both arms and showed me how to type commands on the keyboard. After a few minutes of this, he said 'and if you have any questions, we have this manual that shows step-by-step how to do this.' I said, "Do you think it is a good manual?' He said, "Oh yes! It's excellent! I used it to learn how to do this." "Great" I said, "I wrote it."

Response by MSgt Roger Lalik made Sep 2 at 2014 10:15 AM

MSgt Roger Lalik — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 10:15:15 -0400

You are an officer. You are or could be a company commander. You're not their pals Captain. You're their commander. So command. Show your senior enlisted the trust and confidence in them that will allow them to not only do their jobs but to grow professionally. Don't you dare encroach on their responsibilities. If things are not to your liking. You grab your 1stSgt or your senior enlisted man and set him straight. Don't ever bypass the chain of command (down). If you do, standby for the richly deserved butt chewing you'll gonna get from your 1stSgt.

I can only speak for myself and about the time I served in the Corps. When I was a SNCO. We guarded the mystique of our professional group like it was our daughters virginity.

We were jealous of our responsibilities and always sought more. We earned the respect of all our officers and our men. We understood "There are those in command and there are those that make things happen". A good SNCO never waited for his officer to tell him what to do and he never allowed his officer to tell him how to do it.

We continually emphasized respect for the bars that our immediate officers wore. We also helped/taught our officers to earn loyalty and respect. But, periodically, we would have an idiot. Then our relationship was a bit different. We would attempt to teach that officer. If he did not want to learn. We let him fall on his sword. Sometimes with a nudge.

A good officer knew he could learn from his SNCO's. A good SNCO knew how important he was to the training of his company grade officer and never let his officer get himself into trouble.

Being liked is not a part of your professional equation. If you're an officer (particularly a Marine) and you're asking questions like the one I'm responding to. Maybe you need to re-evaluate your career choice.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Sep 2 at 2014 10:33 AM

Maj Chris Nelson — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 10:33:31 -0400

I am an officer with just about as many years as Enlisted. I wore E-5 stripes for quite a number of years and I was part of the proud NCO Corps.... Circumstances what they were, I had to apply for and received my commission (it all revolves around my nursing license and the military attitude of staying in bounds of your MOS/Rank...conflict of levels between the 2). It was really hard for me to think of myself OTHER then an NCO or Enlisted member for a number of years. I STILL feel more comfortable around NCOs then many officers. Junior enlisted troops have daily and hourly contact with their NCO chain. Due to mission and job discription, officers tend to manage programs, not direct operations. Therefore, the enlisted troop tends to believe that the officer does NOT understand what they go through on the daily basis. Lets face it...how many officers are familiar with GI Party, open ranks inspection, "hey you" details, latrine duty....the list goes on..... But on the flip side, how many enlisted troops are under pressure daily for program management and reporting to levels "on high"?? Everyone has a job to do. The perception is there. Enlisted and NCO pride almost always runs high...and why not?? They ARE the business end of the stick. The officers wield the stick. Some of us that have been both sides of the fence see things with a different perspective, but neither right nor wrong.

Response by LCpl John Petrone made Sep 2 at 2014 10:58 AM

LCpl John Petrone — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 10:58:09 -0400

i've met a few good ones of course, but the majority have a "better than thou" mentality and when a good guy comes along they don't know how to act. it's no individual fault just the nature of the beast.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2014 11:25 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 11:25:08 -0400

I don't think any officers should comment on this thread. They wouldn't understand.

Response by SGT Suraj Dave made Sep 2 at 2014 11:32 AM

SGT Suraj Dave — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 11:32:17 -0400

Officers are not really all that bad, its just LT's really.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2014 12:32 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 12:32:57 -0400

My opinion on this topic is: it depends on the unit culture, I have work half of my career in strategic environments(Officer Heavy) and I can attest that NCOs just want to handle their business at the lowest level possible. As a result, we try to avoid the O's.

Response by 1SG Mark Colomb made Sep 2 at 2014 1:00 PM

1SG Mark Colomb — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 13:00:28 -0400

There is no such distinction of "Officer" business and "NCO" business. It is all COMPANY business and everyone has a part in making it happen.

Response by CW3 Guy Snodgrass made Sep 2 at 2014 1:02 PM

CW3 Guy Snodgrass — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 13:02:52 -0400

Being an officer isn't "bad"...or good. It just is. Like being a postman or CEO or construction worker. It is a position like any other and like all positions comes with certain responsibilities.
I think some of the context is missing in regards to this question. I was an E-7 before I went warrant so I 'grew up through the ranks' which I believe allowed me to better understand what my troops went through on a day-to-day basis. Usually when I've heard that response "oh you are an officer you wouldn't understand" it usually was associated with some some type of problem...'no pay due', putting up with 'crap' at work, etc. Which in most cases, officers probably don't have a clue. I agree that as an officer you have a 'need to know' what is going on within your outfit and yes you are held accountable, but if you try to run your outfit and micro manage your troops you are in for a world of hurt. As a NCO my troops are my responsibility. The officer is there to provide top cover. In the event the NCO is a 'dirt bag' (and I've had a few) and isn't taking care of the troops, your job..officer...is to get rid of them.
Officers and NCOs are not there to be "liked" this isn't a "reality show" they are there to do a job and protect their troops. Period.
The first two quotes of this topic appear to be problems a troop was having that they felt as an officer wouldn't understand, the last sounds like its getting into the "micro manage" arena. As an officer part of your job (a big part in my opinion) is to protect your NCO's six. Let them do their jobs (and make them do their jobs).
My final note...going from NCO to officer is a lot like going from Cpl => Sgt. All those troops that you were buddy-buddy with now "work" for you. The whole mindset changes because you are no longer peers.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2014 1:09 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 13:09:19 -0400

I know it may be hard to believe but I have heard the same thing. I put this up there with global warming. People, to include soldiers, fear what they don't know. They compartmentalize an officer as being in the office and wondering around aimlessly while NCO's make it happen. I am sorry to inform those out there, this is not the case. Officers have their place just as NCOs do. The issue at hand is that a lot of NCO's don't see what officers do. If NCOs are able to make it up to the senior staff levels they will see what I am talking about.

The big difference that I see is that NCOs look down and officers look up. What I mean on this is that NCOs focus on their elements whether it be a squad or platoon. This is simply to run and control. The overall picture is not of their concern really. The part that they are given is their concern. That is how it is molded. Officers are not the same way. They are given a commander's intent and are given a task and purpose. They develop their mission by maintaining the commanders intent. If you are the Decisive Operation your Task and Purpose will be nested from the very top. That PL may be looking as high as the Division level for his mission. This is not trained in the NCOs corps and is not commonly understood. But then it was never meant to be.

We all have our roles. Officers will not understand what it takes to be an NCO, unless they were prior service, and NCOs will not understand what it takes to be an officer. We like to look at LT's and fun at them. But in five years that SGT will be a SSG, or if he is lucky a SFC. In five years that LT is now your Company Commander, as a CPT, and controls everything you do.

NCO's don't want to view it this way. I learned it the hard way. I figured it would be easy being an officer. I was wrong. I did four months of Infantry School and still think I was short changed.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2014 2:21 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 14:21:37 -0400

I have seen this and it truly is a shame, The way I look at it is every one of us puts our pants on the exact same way every morning, respect/customs and courtesies given where necessary. But If an O is showing interest and or wants to help out why not let them. Granted I did run into a situation where an O thought they new a better way, and a simple polite. Sir, im the SME thats not the way its done. Takes care of it. And I believe that this is an old school style of thinking that needs to be eliminated because the more an O knows about how the system works the better they can help us ie: funding,taking heat for a down system ect.

But thats just my 2 cents.

Response by Cpl Matthew Wall made Sep 2 at 2014 2:29 PM

Cpl Matthew Wall — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 14:29:31 -0400

From my perspective it is usually the LTs that get the shrug of the shoulder. This is due to them being new to the service and being a "boot" if you will. If you think about it you have an E-4 as an NCO who has been in probably 3 years and you have an LT straight out of training. They are almost like a Private straight out of boot camp and SOI/MCT training. They have all the classroom knowledge and some training outside, but think they know everything.

I will say though that if a LT comes in and wants to learn and is willing to listen to his/her NCOs and SNCOs then I think they will be an awesome officer. However, if you come in and think you know everything and try to enforce your rules and think everybody else is stupid then you aren't going to get very far.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2014 4:05 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 16:05:03 -0400

The more junior the officer, the closer you are to the troops and "taking care of Soldiers," is a leader thing, no matter what your rank. I wouldn't want the BDE Commander coming down and leading my troops personally though, and I know he trusts me to do my job the right way. Same thing with my subordinates. I do my best to let them lead without my interference. There are times where I will do something that NCO's consider enlisted business. The problem is that if I get to it...and it ain't done...it just became Squadron Commander business, because someone failed to do it before the ONLY LTC in the formation got there. If you want it back, I'll give it back...shoved straight down your throat...and you better not have an attitude about it. No one wants big-brother lurking over them all the time, and sometimes that's what an officer is like if he doesn't trust his subordinates. That trust runs both ways though. I have to trust that my NCO's are doing their jobs when I'm not there...and I do. But lord help you if I find you not doing it.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Sep 2 at 2014 4:16 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 16:16:37 -0400

It's just eyebrow envy LTC Private RallyPoint Member. If they could pull off "The Rock" eyebrow look they would feel better about themselves. Haters gotta hate....

Response by PV2 Louise De Simone made Sep 2 at 2014 4:53 PM

PV2 Louise De Simone — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 16:53:13 -0400

Well, mainly because every officer I ever had the misfortune to run into was nothing but a PIMP, and DRUNK. I was on crutches and others were trying to make our way to the Mess Hall when Damn Shavetails came roaring out of the "O" Club laughing trying to run us down, well, lets see, how about the time you guys wanted to have sex with the young men in the barracks who were just 18 or younger? Gee, maybe it was the all night gambling you guys did on Post with the express strong arming by NCO"S; that were also into drugs and continual drunken binges when they were given assurances that it was ok in this barracks area, We Enlisted have a GOOD REASON FOR HATING OFFICERS Because officers are COWARDS and PATHOLOGICAL LIARS!!!!! The days of good and decent officers are gone with WW2 !!!! Everything is politics. We didnt have a problem with WO because they minded their own buisness and left us alone if they saw us walking on post. So thats why.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2014 7:30 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 19:30:26 -0400

LTC Private RallyPoint Member - In my experience working with almost exclusively Officers (Pilots), Warrant Officers (Helicopter Pilots) and NCOs, I was myself. Respectful of the rank but not intimidated and I did not internalize the Officer-Enlisted Dynamic as a negative.

You, MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca , Lt Col Luis A. Rojas and Col Private RallyPoint Member are positive types and approachable. I tried to also be with NCOs and younger enlisted, non-NCOs and to some extent civilians who worked as Meteorologists at our units. If you suck, you suck, but rank seldom has anything to do with it.

I was a pretty good weather man, so I elicited respect from most. But my love of the service and even the role of all of us gives me confidence with any. I say the hardest for me would be anyone who is an ass.

I remember one Captain (C-5A) who was bragging about his dad being a General and the Colonel behind him was rolling his eyes and the occasional Tom Cruise (Top Gun) fighter pilots. I'd like to give them some of that loving feeing with a part of my hand, lol

My favorite on the A-Team was Murdoch and that should explain a lot. But really I would help any veteran, active or not and includes Reserve and Guard.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Sep 2 at 2014 8:30 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 20:30:24 -0400

It's your LES. Start an allotment to your PSG's and things will change. Im certain of it.

Response by SPC Todd Hanson made Sep 2 at 2014 9:05 PM

SPC Todd Hanson — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 21:05:52 -0400

I believe there are something's that are "NCO business" and something's that are "officer business" but once you wear that gold stripe on your ASU trousers it become leader business. If you see something wrong say something, if a soldier does a good job say something if the soldiers needs the forth point of contact applied do something.

Response by LTC Hillary Luton made Sep 2 at 2014 10:09 PM

LTC Hillary Luton — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 22:09:37 -0400

There is nothing wrong with being an officer, but NCO's are correct, taking care of Soldiers is NCO business. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be a part of that, but officers are the next level up and the day-to-day business with a Soldier belongs to the NCO.
Its not surprising to hear an enlisted Soldier or NCO say, "you wouldn't understand, you're an officer" and for anyone who has never been enlisted, there is some reality to this statement. You cannot fully understand what it means to be enlisted, what it feels like, unless you have worn the rank of private or specialist or NCO.
I occasionally get the "you're an officer" with a disgusted voice, but its usually in jest from my SGM and NCO friends. And yes, I have NCOs whom I consider friends. And I usually reply with, "Yup, sucks to be me" or some smart a#$ comment back.
I would be surprised if a warrant was treated the same, considering they come from the NCO ranks.
Don't be offended by these comments. Its really not worth getting upset over. Try seeing things from their point of view and you will understand these comments better.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2014 11:02 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 23:02:14 -0400

I remember when I was a teen I didn't like a boy for no apparent reason. Maybe I didn't like the way he appeared. Regardless, he was a really good person and it was me the bad attitude. We became good friends.
.

My mom sent me a little saying that he died from an aneurism at age 18!!!!!!
Hasty considerations are beneath us and unworthy to tell others, especially some spurious notion of a person's gender, rank, skin color, etc.

In fact that is the worst in human nature, to decry and diminish another person for no valid reason. Those kinds of words condemn us and really is a reaction to our own self-esteem and I can see NO justification for it.

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Sep 2 at 2014 11:10 PM

Sgt Packy Flickinger — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 23:10:38 -0400

I think it makes most enlisted nervous. I used to attend meditation (Buddhist) with a group in Iwakuni, Japan. We would talk, joke, see movies at the homes of the few who had them. Very close group. We really didn't know what pay grade anybody was. One day I saw one of the Marines in the group in uniform and he was a CWO. It shouldn't have made a difference after that in our get togethers, but it did.

Its not that we (I) look at officers with disgust, its just we don't know how to act. Say or do the wrong thing. Then, its also the specifics of that particular enlisted/officer relation. I used to go running off base with our Squadron XO and it didn't affect me the way the CWO did.

In your situations above, I'd say you need to politely and friendly ask them about it. Gently push your way in. Your an officer so it may be likely they are trying to hide something from you. Let them know you're not going away but not there to harass them or write them up. Let them know you may be an officer but still wearing the same uniform, on the same side, ready to help and human like them.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2014 11:47 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 23:47:48 -0400

Sir,
Generally WOs are the best of both worlds. They get all the Perks and Benefits of being an Officer but they also have the Experience and Respect of the NCO Corps. They are subject matter experts and are officers based on their merits. Most times by the time a warrant completes WOC they have spent a few years as enlisted and have learned the ropes in in their profession, they have garnered the confidence and respect of the NCOs and Officers that Recommended them and Supported them in going to WOC. This in my opinion sets them apart.

Officers get the short end of the stick because in general until you are coming as a Butter Bar and "Out Rank" everyone in your section. While most of the Enlisted especially your NCOs look at you and think to themselves "Sir" I have skid marks in my draws older than you... Yes you have education behind you, sure you got a degree in underwater basket weaving that does not make you a leader.

There was a time when having a college education set Officers apart. This is generally not the case anymore. Not only do most NCOs have at the least a Bachelors Degree by the time they hit E5 to E6 but they also in this day and age tend to have at least one combat tour under their belts. Commissioned Officers especially new Lieutenants need to take a step back and realize that WE are the Back Bone of the Army. Until you have some experience and time under your belt your primary function is a Bull Shit Buffer.

Yes you are an Officer and your will be shown the Required Customs and Courtesies, however, with rare exception (i.e... Mustangs) your average SPC or SGT who has been doing the job for a while is the Subject Matter Expert. Rather than coming in and waiving your "Good Idea Fairy Wand" or "Shaking things up" to show your authority come in and WATCH, speak to your NCOs offline and learn how things work then if you have ideas of how to streamline things or whatever run them through your NCOIC and allow the change to perk like good coffee.

If you come in and make an ass of yourself you will never get anything more than Customs and Courtesies.

The NCOIC can be your best friend or your worst enemy but that really all depends on those first few weeks of interaction. Don't get off on the wrong foot with your NCOs.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2014 2:44 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 02:44:49 -0400

Officers want to get their hands into everything, including NCO business. We got this Sir, just sit back and watch.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Sep 3 at 2014 7:04 AM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 07:04:27 -0400

It's like anything else in life, it comes down to your approach. If you are trained well by your NCOs as a 2LT, know what "Sir/Ma'am, I got this" means, lead by example and take an interest in your troops IMHO, you're half way there. The other half is you. If you come across as LT Sobel in "Band of Brothers" - great job by David Schwimmer BTW - you're going to lose points.
You're not there to make friends but you don't want to influence enemies either.

Response by LTJG Daniel Bouysou made Sep 3 at 2014 7:40 AM

LTJG Daniel Bouysou — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 07:40:16 -0400

Ever heard the expression you salute the rank not the person. Enlisted men will respect you for who you are, especallly senior enlisted men who can be your best allies.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2014 8:59 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 08:59:54 -0400

CPT Maureli-

AS an SFC in a 1SG position I had a SGT get into trouble resulting in me counseling and providing him with corrective training as opposed to UCMJ actions. He was beside himself thanking me for not elevating the issue up to my Commander. I informed him that the Commander had been fully briefed and that the actions taken were as a result of her directives to me.

As it was my duty to keep my Commander informed it was also my responsibility to teach, coach and mentor the Soldiers she entrusted to my charge. The SGT was shocked to know that the Commander and any officer appointed over me were always kept informed. A 1SG is the Senior Enlisted Advisor to the Commander and as such does not make statements such as ‘oh you are an officer you wouldn’t understand”, or “taking care of Soldiers is NCO business not officers”.

Furthermore if any Soldier looks at you with disgust being that such is a sign of disrespect and interpretation accounts for 9/10’s of the law order that individual, his leadership and your 1SG to your office and confront them demanding they explain themselves. They can say that is just their look or facial expression all day long as at the end the senior ranking person makes the decision if such is or is not so.
We need our officers and Sir you need a good senior NCO as a mentor on enlisted issues to ensure that we do not have more 9 year Captains who are not well informed or know their place within the food chain. All of these NCO’s making such statements or not taking care of our officers need remedial training while they go back and read the Creed of the NCO. Some of them may even warrant disciplinary actions which are at the discretion of the Commander.

I do not know about everyone else here but if I was still in the United States Army and someone disrespected one of my officers I would rip them apart and fix such with the quickness!

Thank you Colonel John Michael Collins for looking out for me throughout my career and always being there for me Sir! NCO’s think about what you want our future officer’s to think about us as their NCO’s…

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Sep 3 at 2014 9:44 AM

CW5 Sam R. Baker — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 09:44:36 -0400

Truly each and every rank has its issues with both pros and cons. While applying for warrant officer I was courted to go to OCS, I to this day still feel I made the right choice for the Army and myself. Simply put, earning the respect of those who follow you is being a good officer, not simply having them respect the rank, but the person wearing it. I have never asked a Soldier to do anything I have not or would not do myself. Some are leaders and some are not, toxic leadership from one can ruin the respect of a 100, so let's realize this and every now and then thank those who do it right.

Response by Capt Al Parker made Sep 3 at 2014 9:56 AM

Capt Al Parker — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 09:56:32 -0400

Maybe your the type of Officer who wears their rank on your skivies.

Response by SSG Sean Butler made Sep 3 at 2014 10:47 AM

SSG Sean Butler — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 10:47:53 -0400

I've had some fantastic officers...men I'd follow in to the gates of Hell. I guarantee you not a single one of them bitched about what the men thought of them on an online forum. I suggest you find some squared away 1SG or SFC and glue yourself to them...this is something that should have happened the day you got pinned your butter bar but at some point you were failed.

NCOs and the men shouldn't be your friends and you shouldn't want them to be. That doesn't mean you can't have a polite relationship, but as long as you're in the military you will ALWAYS be the officer and they will ALWAYS be the NCO. Please find a good mentor and fast.

Response by MSgt Bill Miller made Sep 3 at 2014 11:39 AM

MSgt Bill Miller — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 11:39:09 -0400

It's a matter of exigencies... As a junior officer you shouldn't get all chumy with your troops; it affects your performance in too many ways to get into here. As a mid-level/senior officer; no way! You are trained to be the big picture thinker, to "strategize". There's a reason for all the 01/02 jokes, they're true! Your average E5/6 has been concentrating on knowing and pushing troops (or being the technical expert) for 4-10 years, it's what they do. The E7/8's had better have that solid small unit management down pat regardless of TiS. When the average O1-2 starts putting their nose into NCO business it generally means more work for the troops, the NCO and probably the junior officer as well in the long run.

Its not a slight, its a delineation of responsibilities. It has been developed over generations of military progress. In nations where there is little or no responsibility or respect shown the NCO corps you can see the benefit of this progression.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Sep 3 at 2014 11:48 AM

CPT Jack Durish — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 11:48:00 -0400

I never heard of this problem before. Is it a new thing? I can see how it might be inasmuch as we have someone at the top of the chain of command who eschews responsibility. Isn't that the primary function of a commissioned officer, to take responsibility? Maybe that's the problem of officers who experience this. They're the ones who don't take responsibility. They pass the blame onto their subordinates. Is it any wonder that subordinates would think that such a person is of no importance? Think about it...

Response by PO2 Steven Erickson made Sep 3 at 2014 12:02 PM

PO2 Steven Erickson — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 12:02:44 -0400

I would tend to agree with the PO1. Back in my day (83-89), as a PO2 we were "working class" on the fast attack boats. I can't tell you how many times we dove the bilges with needle guns to strip 6-month old paint so we could paint it again in preparation for ComSubGroup's inspection. That "Chief... why the heck are we..." followed by "Because the LT/Eng/XO/CO wants it done..." was so commonplace that it drove many of us out of the canoe club (although we LOVED being nukes). Standing watch, doing equipment maintenance and repairs made perfect sense - especially to nuke bubbleheads - but the busy work just blew us away.

Many will recall this... "Don't call me Sir, I work for a living."

We didn't really have any disrespect for officers, especially as nukes on submarines (we were all shipmates - dependent on each other every day under water). It was that "Ours is not to wonder why, ours is but to do and die."

Thanks for the patience with all the cliches. And... NO DISRESPECT, just an OPINION...

EM2/SS, USS Permit, SSN-594

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2014 1:45 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 13:45:48 -0400

Sir,
WIth all due respect, and I mean that, I'm not being facetious. There are some things that are left to officers and some things that are left to NCOs. Tell where in your officer creed it talks about taking care of Soldiers (now I am being facetious)? Our main mission as NCOs is the mission and our Soldiers. As an officer you take care of your NCOs. If you take care of your NCOs they will take care of you. If someone tells you that your an officer you will not understand don't take it personal, take it as a challenge. Ask the individual to give you a chance to understand. But remember thats a double edge sword, because of if you cant fix their problem and tell them you will get with their NCO, you just validated their point.......

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2014 2:06 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 14:06:14 -0400

The reason officers are discounted by the NCOs is because every NCO has some experience dealing with an officer who considers his education superior to the tried and true method. Every time this has happenned the officer was trying to do something in a way that even I had been trained to do, but had learned the hard way to adapt and overcome to accomplish the task. The officer usually will not listen to reason or anything he does not want to hear, and proceeds to make a mess. and WHO HAS TO CLEAN UP AN OFFICER'S MESS? Usually it's me, because someone says "hey Sergeant! you've done this a thousand times! why the hell weren't you watching out for your LT?" and NOW this educated idiot's mess is MY mess. At first I took it as a "case by case" thing, but after 10 years doing this I find more officers to be like this than otherwise.

Also, it's growing harder and harder to respect an officer who has a "criminal justice" degree. you may as well just go to college and say "I want to be an Army Officer."

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2014 3:04 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 15:04:19 -0400

Sir, the fact that you have to ask this question is the answer in itself.

I wouldn't say disgust, but there are definite inequities between the ranks. As a young E-3 I remember hearing two Captains talk openly about their $40,000 cars in front of a new E-2 who was having financial issues, someone who enlisted to take care of their elderly parents. Should officers get paid more? Not unless they're actually doing more for the service/unit their in, which most probably are. But their inability to recognize where they were having this conversation (This E-2's story was well known in the unit) was the perfect example of an officer not knowing what this side of the fence was like. There are plenty of things NCOs just won't understand either unless you teach them, but the general lack of interest in learning what's going on on the other side is the issue. For example, you could have asked an NCO what they meant instead of posting it on a message board. Ask them to show you what they mean. Or quit whining about it, because that adds to the problem.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2014 3:17 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 15:17:22 -0400

After being an NCO for 9 years I've gotten this a few times. Honestly I think it comes from having poor officers. There is no such thing as NCO business. It's leadership business. We are there to keep people honest and check our soldiers. I care about what is going on and want to know. That is why I stay involved not to micromanage.

Response by SGT Jerry Couch made Sep 3 at 2014 3:41 PM

SGT Jerry Couch — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 15:41:55 -0400

It is the NCO,S job to take care of the soldiers but in certain cases a lot of officers stick there nose where it does not belong and in a lot of cases the only difference between the two is nothing a lot of them have degrees as well a lot of us are proud to be NCO,S we could have been officers but we chose not to be and nothing gets a NCO,S butt more than have a LT come in barking orders when he barley has three years in compared to having 10 plus years in not all officers are bad but you do have that few idots as well as having a few NCO,S that are idots

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2014 3:58 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 15:58:30 -0400

As long as supervisors and management have existed in the world a certain disconnect between those in authority and those doing the labor has persisted. I remember fondly my father complaining about his factory supervisors and how he could've done a better job. I don't doubt that he could've been a great manager, but he didn't possess the required education. I've encountered countless NCOs as well as young Soldiers who would make much better officers than their leaders, but as we all know, climbing the ladder takes time. By the way, the NCO corps holds just as much esteem and pride as the officer corps and I would be proud to be a leader on either side.

Response by Maj Walter Kilar made Sep 3 at 2014 7:32 PM

Maj Walter Kilar — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 19:32:22 -0400

I can give you the point of view of a prior enlisted Air Force officer. When I was an NCO, we were really bred to take care of the people, and to be part of a team. Even in basic training, all 63 of us were taught to help one another and be a team. As an Air Force officer, we are bred to look out for number one. In basic officer training--USAFA, ROTC, or BOT--we strive for top ranking at the expense of the team. I can say that sometimes I looked at myself in the mirror in disgust. I can definitely say that I look back at my 11 years of enlisted time as the best years of my life. I can only say that my 9 years of commissioned time are the best paychecks of my life. If I were returned to the Air Force NCO corps and knew what I know now, I would be disgusted at most Air Force officers I see.

Sure, there is an element of "being lonely at the top", and not being understood by the NCOs. There is also a difference in how we are used and how we are to use others. This goes on top of the preferential treatment and unfair treatment in many cases towards the enlisted corps.

Finally, it really is not the job of an officer to take care of the people. NCOs are charged with that. I believe that is in many of the services' NCO creeds. The commissioned officers are to "discharge the duties of the office...", or "do the mission".

Response by PO2 Kevin LaCroix made Sep 3 at 2014 7:50 PM

PO2 Kevin LaCroix — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 19:50:03 -0400

It likely is from having officers that micro managed and did not allow nco's to do their jobs. I have known very good officers and very bad ones. Ones of the best was from a multi generational naval academy officer family, his grandfather had a ship named after him, one of the worst was a maverick. Enlisted and officers are very different don't read too much into it.

Response by A1C Wayne Martin made Sep 3 at 2014 7:55 PM

A1C Wayne Martin — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 19:55:48 -0400

Officers are like crosstrained NCOs --don't know anything useful and outrank those who do.

Response by CPT Michael Moffeit made Sep 3 at 2014 9:07 PM

CPT Michael Moffeit — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 21:07:26 -0400

It's probably the 'bad apples' that tend to do it. When I was enlisted, I saw some officers that NEVER stepped foot out in the field, that could NEVER be found in the dust storm with us, be it showing face for a brief moment or helping to set up a tent. Some officers I NEVER knew even existed until a change of command ceremony. There is that understanding that their obligations force them to ride a desk or possibly that they are busy elsewhere, but the frustration I personally felt came from a perceived mentality of 'I don't belong in the field' and the thought that it was unthinkable for an O-3 or O-4 getting their hands dirty with the lowest ranking of soldiers and sweating it out (literally) in the field.

Now that I've crossed that thresh-hold into the Officer side, I can appreciate the enlisted mentality, as well as the frustration from the officer, specifically 2LT, side. 'You're just an LT, and you don't know ANYTHING. Hold this, go to that corner, and try not to get lost on your way there' is the type of attitude a lot of the soldiers I've seen have towards fresh 2LTs.

I think a balance is key. You don't want to micro-manage (unless you absolutely CANNOT trust your Soldiers based off of history/experience) and you also don't want to be a no-show. What works and doesn't work is dependent on a lot of different variables. I think, looking forward, as long as you trust your soldiers and especially your NCOs, you can allow them to handle their 'business' as long as you're kept in the loop.

Bottom line: At the top of any officers' priority should be taking care of their troops, whether that jeopardizes their career or not, you are judged off of your subordinates, NOT yourself alone. The good officers earn their soldiers' respect and fight for them, the bad ones try to get their chest as shiny as possible.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2014 9:32 PM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 21:32:16 -0400

I was a 11-year E-6 before I was commissioned and went into the Air Force Security Police. Right or wrong I had a lot of instant respect because I was prior enlisted. I never got any of the "Oh, you are an officer" comments.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2014 11:09 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 23:09:41 -0400

Part of the reason I think is that a lot of bad officers have tarnished the image and reputation of the officer corps. I've had my experience with a really bad officer in Iraq 2003. Mind you I was airborne infantry, A CO 1-325 AIR. Our PL we deployed with got promoted, his replacement was a Quartermaster reclass, so he could get troop leading time under his belt for his next promotion. He knew nothing of our tactics; we had already been in 3 fire fights to this point, and his some mission it seemed to us was to get into a fire fight. Thankfully now the officers I have in my KYANG unit are good officers and they take care of us NCO's and junior enlisted

Response by SSG Nicholas Sethman made Sep 3 at 2014 11:46 PM

SSG Nicholas Sethman — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 23:46:43 -0400

I will comment on this because while you may have been a good officer and taken care of your men. i be leave it's the standard as us enlisted are led to be-leave and some of us have seen in person that most officers think they are above enlisted soldiers. I got in trouble alot because i would not give respect unless it was earned. Just because you went to college and rotc don't make you a leader i think that actions should speak louder. And why they say that is because of the gap between soldiers and officers. I have seen alot of them come fresh from college and think that they should have respect. alot of us when we would salute them would think of the saying."salute the rank not the person"why cause no matter what rank you are don't mean you better then anyone and i have found that the best officers come from being enlisted first. They have been in the dirt and shoveled the same shit so they know and as being enlisted they get far more respect then any of the one coming out of rotc. I served ten years and made it to the rank of ssg in the army. I have seen both types of officers. Some i would have followed anywhere just because i respected him alot and there are some that when the shit hit the fan i would throw in front of a bullet. Again i say i have never served with you so i cannot make a judgement of how you were as a leader. But if you were a good one i know that no matter what enlisted or not they would come to you if they needed help. if they did not that just could be that their NCO were very good. But like i said their is two standards one for you guys and one for us.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2014 1:11 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 01:11:12 -0400

Is this guy serious? Is he so above it all that he really doesn't know the answers in the 9 years he spent as an officer?

Response by PO3 John Jeter made Sep 4 at 2014 1:32 AM

PO3 John Jeter — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 01:32:13 -0400

This is completely my own opinion. Take it for what it's worth.......In general (no pun intended), there are two worlds in the military. Officers are expected to learn what needs to be done and when. Enlisted concentrates on how it is done. The worlds are not exclusive of each other. The officer is expected to know enough about how it's done to tailor the effect for the desired result. However, as it was noted in another comment, if I wrote the manual for something, you can certainly expect to see my irk if you try to teach me about it. Junior officers are treated the same as green troops.....a liability until they get up to spec. The main difference being a green troop is a danger to his squad, a junior officer is a danger to many more people. One thing a good officer needs to learn is when to step back and turn your people loose to do their job. The highest praise I ever got from a division officer on my ship was when he told another officer, "MY people KNOW their shit. I don't have to check up on them, I tell them what I want and watch 'em roll!"
There's always going to be some friction between officers and enlisted. There's always going to be friction between Sailors & Marines, Soldiers and Air Force. It makes life interesting, enjoy! *grin*

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2014 8:55 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 08:55:58 -0400

It's always been a running gag at the units I've been to. "Come join the Dark Side". However, if it were such a bad thing, there would be no green to gold either.

I think there are Soldiers out there with a chip on there shoulders who hate any form of authority. I think there are also toxic leaders that seriously affect the enlisted around them in a negative way. Some perceive Officer's as having some form of Elitism.

Whatever it is, from my experience, its limited, and Officer's respect their enlisted and vice versa.

Response by CPO Tom Andrews made Sep 4 at 2014 10:35 AM

CPO Tom Andrews — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 10:35:11 -0400

Just to give them some fleet perspective I used to tell the Ensigns "sir, do you know the difference between an Ensign and a Seaman? The Seaman has been promoted twice". Most of them got the drift and became fine LT's

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2014 11:27 AM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 11:27:03 -0400

Since I was a SSG before becoming a warrant, I knew the role of the NCO. I hung my stripes in the closet and challenge my NCOs to conduct their business rather than consider it a barrier to my daily work.

I rarely have to take the stripes out but when I do, it is done behind closed doors so I do not confuse the unit as to where I stand in the food chain.

Taking care of Soldiers means understanding that a large majority of these peple joined out of high school and will mess up. A lot. The NCO has been there and is charged with enforcing the required discipline. If he/she cannot do that, usually you will find out and it will become Officer Business. That is where Admin Reductions and Art 15/Capt Mast comes into play.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2014 11:29 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 11:29:49 -0400

I was going to write about how degrees don't make leaders, but instead I will share a quote with you that I thinks gets it across just as clearly.

The other day a young O-1 was sharing a story with me and a retired E-7 about losing some pilot training tradition for a short period of time. I told the lieutenant, "That's what it feels like to be enlisted." The retired Master Sergeant said, "No one should ever have to feel that way. It's bad enough enlisted people have to."

If you are an officer and you can't understand this, take off your bars, put on some stripes and go speak to another officer. You'll gain a new perspective.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2014 11:47 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 11:47:22 -0400

LTC Private RallyPoint Member, one look at your eyebrows Sir, that's all it takes.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2014 1:17 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 13:17:32 -0400

Because officers misuse quotation marks. Side note and somewhat applicable, it is interesting to see officers responses when this E6 mentions his Masters degree.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2014 2:53 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 14:53:24 -0400

In the Field Artillery, it is an Officer's job to have a basic knowledge of every postion his/her Soldiers may hold. From a PFC on a radio recieving fire missions, to a Gunnery Sergeant laying a Battery, the Officer needs to understand every moving piece. So when I hear "this is NCO business", it makes it seem like some Soldiers/Leaders don't understand the importance of an Officer. Yes, we are very young and have a lot to learn, but when situations are kept from Officers in an attempt to not burden them, it prevents that young Lieutenant from learning, and therefore, may cause him/her to become lazy in their responsibilities, creating more and more "NCO Business".

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2014 2:58 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 14:58:07 -0400

I believe the stigma comes from one being that a new officer is basically a "glorified private", as in you generally have all your NCO's that could have anywhere from 20-50 years of combine experience from multiple different types of units and positions they held. An officer is just mentally imaged as like they got the management position because their dad owns the business. Also a lot of fresh out of training officers also tend to retain their college mentality and push out their chest to show their rank whereas in one perspective you need to create a sturdy foundation within your unit as a confident and competent leader. At the same time though uncessary cockyness and arogance will lose you respect that you are yet to have and that goes for NCO's as well. Also officer are viewed as a political stand point job, and there is a huge gap within the job requirements between elisted, warrant, and officer so unless you have experience in any other section it makes it hard to understand fully the others job. I could go into the back log in difference within MOS and officers but thats entirely way to many details and factors to put together. But consider the bond on enlisted guys have together as they watch numerous officers come and go whether it be before, during, or after a tour somewhere. Enlisted could stay together from a few years to who knows how long and the high rank or more time they add up that bond gets stronger. Typically an officer is in a position for less than two years. So that is probably your best understanding as to why someone tells an officer they wouldn't understand. From my personal experience, the best officers were always the one who were prior enlisted and preferably made it within the NCO ranks as the are more rounded as a leader and have experience in both areas. Now taking care of soldiers kinda goes back to officers coming and going, A good NCO takes pride in the soldiers under them and we become protective over them. We don't want just any officer to fill the slot, we want one that we'll be able to trust and have confidence in them knowing that they will have our backs as would we. As every leader though you need to earn actual respect from your leadership and soldiers and both us NCOs and the soldiers will notice if you take an actual person intereste in getting to know us individually instead of just trying to check the block. It may not be your job to take care of soldiers but if a soldier asks you will, and will ensure NCOs in your platoon/company/ unit are taking care of soldiers.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2014 3:17 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 15:17:05 -0400

Being a leader in any capacity is a great, great privilege. As an officer, you have to understand that your rank has two purposes: 1. To use to further mission accomplishment, and 2. To use to take care of your troops, in that order. It has no other purpose.

You also should realize that your job is to think ahead, plan, and make timely, realistic decisions and communicate them to your subordinate leaders so that they can do their jobs. You shouldn't need to constantly intervene in any NCO's area of concern, other than to ensure they are on track with the overall mission, and never chew more than one level down. But catch soldiers and sailors and Marines doing great work at all ranks and recognize them for it. Do these things, and work hard to maintain your tactical and technical competence on the side, and you will have few problems.

It may be that you are guilty of straying out of your lane, if you're hearing "you're an officer, let us handle this" on a regular basis. Nothing wrong with getting your hands dirty and your boots muddy, but don't try to out squad-lead the squad leader while you're at it!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2014 4:12 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 16:12:06 -0400

This question is like a hand grenade with two of three safeties pulled and all I need to do is ease up on the banana clip...

The issue is the level of understanding, and respect. Communication is often lost when Soldier A and Soldier B look at each other sideways instead of level. It doesn't matter if A is a senior Captain, and B is a buck Sergeant, there has to be constant level of respect.

At all times the quality of the mission and safety of the troops is in charge of both the officer and NCOs, so to try and muscle one or the other from performing those positions is like cutting off your nose to fix your face (It might work, but you will have a hell of a time with your eye protection later).

Common ground has always been the way to solve the communication issues and it seems the best way to get the mission completed and the troops home safely.

Response by MSgt Dennis Dudley made Sep 4 at 2014 4:52 PM

MSgt Dennis Dudley — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 16:52:10 -0400

Not that being an officer is a bad thing, it's just that you get some of these 90 day wonders coming out of OTS, having no idea what really makes up the military. I have this strange belief that a person should not become an officer without spending time as an enlisted person.

Response by Cpl Cody Toy made Sep 4 at 2014 5:35 PM

Cpl Cody Toy — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 17:35:30 -0400

Officers, mostly the of the o1-o2 type, are arrogant and pompous. They think because a book says it and that they have read it that they know how everything works. They also believe that they are smarter than the enlisted because the have a piece of paper that says they spent thousands of dollars get. They have no real life experience but think that they can lead men in battle that have been there before.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Sep 4 at 2014 7:07 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 19:07:47 -0400

Warrants pay the same union dues as NCO's. That way, they can keep everyone guessing where their alliances are. That way, they can play everybody.

Response by LTC Jim Marotta made Sep 4 at 2014 7:08 PM

LTC Jim Marotta — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 19:08:22 -0400

Yeah...I heard it all after being an officer for almost 32 years. But these NCOs with the GT score of a rock are either truckers or working at Home Depot. They rejected education like holy water to the devil and now after their wives (as in plural) popped out 5-8 kids (hey, it's free medical care), they wonder where they went wrong. Most NCOs that I've known, E-5 and above were in constant trouble...kiting checks, DUIs, assaults, shop lifting and a lot of them needed constant bail money. I hated command...an Air Cav Troop, an Attack Company, a MEDEVAC Company and finally a General Support Aviation Bn. Constant Article 15s, counseling statements and courts martial. I could not wait to get into staff positions in the Pentagon and CENTCOM.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Sep 4 at 2014 7:27 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 19:27:20 -0400

If it is a guilt thing, send all extra pay to: Mark Merino
1081 E Omega Dr
............................

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2014 11:29 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 23:29:41 -0400

I've met some great officers. But there are a lot of things I've seen that officers don't understand on the Soldiering side of things. Officers jobs are to manage, make sure resources are allocated, paperwork is set up, and the commander has what they need to command. Of course the officer corp does have their soldiering duties to, but that's why we as the Enlisted are here. I have a few officers I look up to though, so I know not all officers are the same. But one thing a college degree will never teach you, experience in the field of battle, weapons, and soldiering. While ROTC does teach some things, I feel if all officers did a year or two as enlisted they would have a better understanding of how it all works on our end.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2014 11:36 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 23:36:19 -0400

Captain, There are 2 different types of officers. The ones who went to the Academy and those who are Mustangers. Those who went to the Academy get less respect then those who rose through the ranks. We, as enlisted personnel, feel that we are closer to them and that they understand our plight. What we can't stand is someone who feels like they are a higher class just because they took etiquette classes at the Academy. I am sure that WO's don't get that so much just for the fact that they once we're enlisted. I have had some good friends that were officers and my own brother is a Major. I can see both sides. But you must understand that we see the world differently. Officers are management and enlisted is the labor force. Usually the two don't co-mingle. To do so can be detrimental to good order and discipline. Even in the enlisted ranks, there is a separation. For instance, in the Navy, E1 thru E6 are in one group and E7 to E9 are in another. Usually they don't party together. I'm not trying to be mean or disrespectful here though. There just are differences. There always will be, there has to be.

Response by SSG(P) Auston Terry made Sep 5 at 2014 12:01 AM

SSG(P) Auston Terry — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 00:01:56 -0400

BLUF: It's not bad, it's different.
Officers who only ever have a commision will never know what it is like to be a private. To have little to no responsibility and learn the hard way through mistakes, sheer epic stupidity, occasional brilliance, and continued misery. No matter what your commisioning track you never really start at the bottom and work your way up, mustangs and LD officers are the only real exceptions. It's definately not a bad thing, but there are things that officers will never and should never understand. NCOs are the backbone and officers are the brain. You should never resort to the kind of language or even outright violence that NCOs apply. Most if not all NCOs know what thier commisioned officers know, and frequently in the decentralized format of the COE they accept the singular responsibility of the lives and actions of thier soldiers. They have also chosen to subordinate themselves to those officers. If there's a 2LT that ever came in the Army that didn't know for a dead solid fact thier PSG could run thier platoon without them, possibly even better, they either had a total shitbag as a PSG or they are delusional. NCOs make the choice, sometimes actively, and sometimes subconsciously to continue to serve thier country in the capacity of a noncommisioned officer. To train and mentor both junior officers and soldiers. What company grade officers sometimes forget is that at least the staff and higher NCOs have seen the cycle repeat itself again and again, and they know there are some things officers just won't understand, there are also things NCOs wouldn't understand because at the end of the day if shit goes sideways its the shineys that are stuck holding the bag. You shouldn't view it as an adversarial comment just a statement of fact.

On the plus side one of the things that NCOs rarely have to worry about in LTs is the many and varied forms of new and different ways to amaze, disgust, and generally defy the laws of natural selection that privates are capable of. In this sense you really just wouldn't understand.

Response by SFC Wesley Metcalf made Sep 5 at 2014 12:30 AM

SFC Wesley Metcalf — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 00:30:32 -0400

I served as as NCO and retired as an E-7, The problem is that most officers do NOT respect the NCO Corps, they feel that they are more educated and smarter then their NCO counter part, I personally feel that officers should serve as enlisted first before becoming an officer only to help them be a more rounded officer and give them the perspective of being on both sides of the fence of being Enlisted and Officer. I personally have dealt with this issue where my officer wrote a plan for a mission, as I as his NCO counterpart tried to give guidance that his plan was not going to work, and tried to give him a suggestion on how the plan would work this individual stated " Im the officer, Im in charge and if I say it will work it will work" Needless to say his plan failed, the commanding officer asked " did you talk to your NCO before completing your plan" His response was " I didn't feel i needed his input" needless to say the commander understood the importance of the NCO corps and reprimanded the officer for not working as a team with his NCO. Most of the problems i have seen in my career have been from the West Point Cadets , it seems they are taught NOT to trust their NCO's. In history when officers were the only ones with collage degrees such as in the Vietnam war or earlier the sentiment of I have a degree and you don't would be justified, but in today's Military the Majority of NCO's have degrees and in some instances have Higher education then their officer counterparts. The Key here is both Officers and NCO's working together as a team and trusting one another, towards the end of my career in the Army I was fortunate to work with some GREAT officers that i still keep in touch with today in my retirement. I have a great respect for what they done as they have for me in my service.

Response by CWO2 B. Sean Fairburn made Sep 5 at 2014 1:48 AM

CWO2 B. Sean Fairburn — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 01:48:58 -0400

Yes As a CWO I Have been treated like I'm in the Club as it were by Senior enlisted Marines.

All Marine CWO's begin as Enlisted thus it is generally understood that We have "Been in your boots, and understand what you are going through" However I have had some AMAZING officers that I have served under. Namely my first CO then Capt Bob McCarty. Who took off his blouse and crawled under my LAV with me while I was cleaning out all the mud and began to scrub the underside next to me, I thought he was just another Marine a Light Armored Grunt like me I never saw his Capt Bars. 2 hours Later both of us are covered in Mud and water my Company Gunny comes to the Vehicle and says that the New CO wants to meet with me at the company office. So I passed the word to the Marine I was working with and said "Hey Devil Dog grab your blouse we gotta meet the new CO" We walked together to the office and he squaired my jacked up collar away then walked off. I entered the office Sat down with the First Sgt who a few minutes later introduced me to the New CO, the same Marine that came to help me and my Crew clean my LAV. It was at that point that He was not just an officer but a Fellow Crew member and a Marine just like the rest of us. He never demanded our respect but always got more than any other officer in the unit.

I have admired his example of what it is to be a Leader of Marines, he just happened to be an Officer.

Most Officers learn from other officers how to "Conduct themselves" often like prep boys in prep school. Instead seeing onself as a Team Member, and we are all on the same team, is often viewed more highly by those you command.
Officers just get the plays first and pass them down to get the mission under way. I often call it the How and the Why, Enlisted know How, but Officers know Why.

Having the humility and confidence to invite ideas and communicate honestly can bring a unit including its officers to a better place of performing its function.

As a CWO (Combat Camera) I always had a very small team and I never got the opportunity to let the other members of the unit do all the work while I sat at a desk. I was always engaged at every level because we were a Team.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2014 5:44 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 05:44:07 -0400

This thread is NCO business.

Response by COL Thomas F. made Sep 5 at 2014 8:49 AM

COL Thomas F. — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 08:49:27 -0400

First off, there is nothing wrong with being an officer. Its all a perception from which platform you stand on. As a former PVT and then up to SGT, I saw the officer ranks in a certain light. Most of them (mainly LTs) sat in an office, talked about college, and did paper work while the NCOs took the troops out to train. That was their first mistake. As my career moved on and my experience grew I realized this of course should not be the norm. Upon commissioning, the three Platoon Sgts I had the pleasure of "leading" (all really cool crusty old Vietnam era guy) gave me the "its NCO business line" as well. In which I countered, what reg, FM, Pam or other document does it say that? We all got along as they were all professionals. A few thought I was some wet-nose LT. In retrospect, I was and I admit it, but I still feel that argument made by NCOs is still disrespectful to the officer and his position as a PL or section leader. In my commands, I've "trained" both my officers and NCO to be able to learn from each other. If there is an NCO business situation, then its the NCOs responsibility to educate the young officer why it is. Is it a NCO-NCO counselings? I was all for NCOs "educating" some young snot-nose soldier in the ways of disciple or extra training, but times have changed. I still don't really know what they did or say, but those kids sure straightened up. Yet again, these were really old-school NCOs and you won't (shouldn't) see stuff like that today. On the reverse angle, LTs who step into an NCOs sphere of influence with his squad or section better have a reason to do so. Observation is one thing. Injecting themselves into the mix because he thinks he knows better undermines the authority and leadership entrusted on the NCO. It also make the LT look like a micro manager and smart-ass. (off course safety issues and stopping something stupid are authorized injection points). After 25+ years of doing Army stuff, times have changed significantly since I came in back in the late 80's. The relationship between the officer and the NCO is a unique one that needs to be respected by both parties. Education, proper mentoring and just plain experience gives people the proper perception of how things work. IMHO, Soldiers with less than 2yrs in just don't know and that includes officers. They are still learning the ropes of who's who and who does what no matter what school they went too, or what their parents did ("my dad/mom/grandpa was an officer so I know whats up".. blah blah blah). Of course, if there are any serious issues with Jr officers and NCOs, I just call the SGM or 1SG, sit back in my chair and watch the fireworks.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2014 12:31 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 12:31:32 -0400

As Inigo once said, "No time to explain, let me sum up". You can't point to any situation as typical. I've had good and bad experiences with chain of command so I try not to knee jerk when confronted with your type of experience. Some officers are great, they know their jobs and they know how to let others do their job. That's really the key. Micro-management is easy to find in managers in and out of the military. Condescension is also easy to find. When I had a leadership position, I tried to make sure that people knew their job and knew their goals. Then, I got out of their way. Maybe the guys you encountered had never had someone show that level of trust before. We've all seen the typical clueless butter-bar and we roll our eyes, internally. Not everyone is really cut out for command. Its a rare individual that is a born leader and sheepskin on the wall or brass on the shoulder can't really make or define that.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2014 1:46 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 13:46:00 -0400

Short answer the increased trend of micro management from the officer ranks. The job of a commander is to give "Intent" it is the SNCO and NCO's job to execute. This micro management has begun to deteriorate the leadership at all levels. It is the unpredictablity of the enlisted leadership which has historically made U.S. forces difficult to combat for the enemy as the Doctrine was unconventional. Now we are moving closer to the European model.

Response by Capt Rob Haddon made Sep 5 at 2014 1:46 PM

Capt Rob Haddon — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 13:46:43 -0400

When I was a fairly new 2nd LT in the Marine Corps, I happened to find a hop that would take me home to see my family. I went to the base, put my name on the list, and sat there in a crowded waiting area. I was sitting next to a very seasoned E-9 from the Army. I was a butter bar and a Marine, so he didn't like me. At one point, he said to me he saw no advantage to being an officer. As it turned out, this flight had very few seats on it and they only had one opening.

The person loading the plane came in and made the announcement that there was only one spot left and then he stated that since I was an officer, I get the seat. I grabbed my bag and looked at the old salt and said, "well, I guess there is ONE advantage". If looks could kill...

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Sep 5 at 2014 3:01 PM

MSG Brad Sand — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 15:01:13 -0400

Sir,

It is not that being an officer is 'bad' it is just that you wouldn't understand, so let us handle this, as it is NCO business.

I never turned in disgust because a person was an officer, but there have been time that I have turned in disgust because a person was an ass...and happened to be an officer. Of course, that was before I gained a closer relationship with the Lord. Now I just pray for those people.

Response by Cpl James Fennessy made Sep 5 at 2014 3:19 PM

Cpl James Fennessy — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 15:19:29 -0400

When I was in the Corps back in the 90 ' s with Fox Battery 2 / 11. We had an officer who came as a butter bar left an us as a Lt. Before he left there was a little talk to him from our C.O. Who told him to not get to attached to his Gun platoon. There has been times when he would rather hang with us than the other officers. We loved the guy we were pissed at first, Then explained what our C.O. said. Don't get too close you will have to oder them to there death if need be. Told be real with us but remember you just might have to sign there death warranty. So it works both ways. As long as ur sharing the same blood and mud we need you to make the rt command decision no matter what. Semp err Fi

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Sep 5 at 2014 3:56 PM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 15:56:10 -0400

Being an officer is not a bad thing, just like being an NCO or junior enlisted soldier is not a bad thing. Everyone has a different perspective on things, based on their own points of view, prejudices, etc.

There are good things and bad things about each category and the adage is certainly true -- "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence". Of course, a lot of times it is greener because it is fertilized with BS.

I will admit that soldiers and NCOs probably think that officers have it easier than they do and, for the most part, they are probably correct. But each has its own duties and responsibilities, hence the reason for the various ranks to start with.

What people think is their business, even if they are incorrect in their thinking.

Response by LTC Jim Marotta made Sep 5 at 2014 5:26 PM

LTC Jim Marotta — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 17:26:10 -0400

I guess it was rude to write a comment without citing specific examples. Won't post names but I could. Example 1: SSG decides to go get chow by "Borrowing" his pal's Ninja. No license, hardly any bike experience. Goes into town and takes the door off of a Georgia Bureau of Investigation car, injuring the officer. Example 2: Coming off the airfield, it's mandatory to use the road with RR crossing gates. SPC takes the shortcut and he has earphones on, not hearing the freight train that hit him. He has yet to relearn how to walk. BAC of .18. Example 3: a herd of SGTs get into 2 cars and try to race, at night, down the active runway, causing a scheduled airliner to do a go-around. FAA and FBI involved. Example 4: Female CW2 beats her BF into a coma with a piece of rebar. Final example: SGM's daughter, 10 years old tells mom "My bottom hurts from daddy". General courts martial. All this happened within a time period of 6 months. Maybe it's me and the luck of the draw. Sorry, there were a few good people and more often than not, the birthday gifts and Christmas items, though a secret, were exceeding generous.

Response by SSG Don Waggoner made Sep 5 at 2014 5:56 PM

SSG Don Waggoner — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 17:56:03 -0400

Not all, not even most, officers are are jerks. Me personally, I just don't like people in authority. But officers do not trust NCO's or lower enlisted and they should. Officers also tend to think the enlisted persons are not as smart as them, can't write as well, or articulate themselves as well. That's demeaning. I used to love showing how well I can write and articulate things. Also, the higher you go in rank, enlisted or officer, the more likely you are to get away with things that juniors cannot, even when you should be held responsible. My Lai is a perfect example. Plus, officers and senior enlisted live in a different world, with different responsibilities, that junor enlisted do. The junior enlisted don't understand how hard you have it sometimes, and they are sometimes jealous. You're an officer. Don't worry about what the enlisted say about you. Just do your job the best you can, act on reasonable criticism, don't abuse your position, and treat your men with respect, courtesy, and compassion. Take responsibility for your actions and the actions of your subordinates, good or bad. And don't be afraid to protect your soldiers from your superiors. Your NCOs will take care of you and make you look good, but only if you keep an eye on them. You don't have to know everything that goes on, but you should know most of it. You're already a good officer because you care about being a good officer.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2014 9:25 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 21:25:39 -0400

Honestly Sir, our modern military poses a unique dynamic between the Officer and Enlisted. Especially the NCO Corps. With the evolution of training objectives, improvements in education, and changes in the age/type of Soldier in the Army today there is little (in many cases) to differentiate between the two. This is no longer the Army of the intellectual and steadfast Officer leading the dependent and poorly educated Soldier. Generation X is far more independent, resourceful, motivated, educated and proactive. NCO's have far more responsibility, authority, decision making ability and battlefield adaptability than ever before. Junior NCO's often make decisions and execute tasks that would have required a Captain's responsibility 30 years ago. In many cases, the enlisted man is equally or more educated than the Officer. Many Soldiers join the Army after College, but choose not to be commissioned. This is especially prevalent in the NCO Corps, where the enlisted man has graduated from College and the biggest differentiating factor after equivalent education is experience. And at the Company Grade, the NCO will typically always overwhelm with experience. Continuing education, Career progression, military education and Command definitely advance the Officer beyond the scope of the NCO pertaining to Command, responsibility and tactical awareness. As an organizational leader, the Field Grade Officer definitely has the upper hand, although that doesn't squash the NCO's potential and ability to lead Soldiers. Don't get me wrong, the role and responsibility of the Officer is different from that of the NCO, and merits the respect and loyalty of the enlisted. Both are by virtue experts and professionals, and as such must adhere to command structure and traditional customs and courtesies. I don't condone the disrespect of any officer, even the lost Lieutenant. My opinion is that even if an Officer is "bad," it is more detrimental to openly challenge his credibility. Actually, no leader should have their credibility challenged by others openly. But it is specifically our duty as NCO's to preserve the image of the command, and support the Officers who assume responsibility of the unit. So with all that said, I do understand why a certain disdain exists among those who are as or more qualified than the Officer, for the Officer. Many times, Officers either assume they know more than their subordinates, or that their subordinate Soldiers are stupid, simply because they are enlisted. This can tend to breed a certain perception based mostly on the attitude or lack of humility of the Officer. It is the Officer that believes heavily in Officer privilege and views the enlisted as beneath him that creates this stigma. More in charge than me doesn't necessarily mean smarter, more qualified and better than me. I would venture to guess that what you described as "turning in disgust" is the enlisted man's method of expressing such feelings. There are many other things I'm sure that have contributed to the divide, but I believe these are the most profound. Also, I have to admit that there are a lot of stupid, lazy and incompetent Soldiers out there who don't fit the mold I described...but I believe we both have that problem.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2014 10:15 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 22:15:27 -0400

Not all Officers sir. Just some that are special cases :)...and new Second Lieutenants out to conquer the world. :)

I've had the good fortune to work side by side with some really outstanding Officers. Some had Enlisted experience, others did not. Sometimes they would aggravate me to no end and then turn around and be the greatest support to my accomplishing my tasks or mission.

In my opinion, an excellent Officer has an excellent NCO at their side and vice versa. We succeed when we compliment one another. Ultimately the Officer Corps makes the policy, and final decisions. We as Noncommissioned Officers execute your decisions. An excellent relationship is built when Officers accept our counsel and experience. I think it was General Schwartzkopf who once said that behind close doors we argue our points but when the final decision is made we salute and execute.

There have been times when I thought some decisions made were wrong or going to end up turning out badly based upon my own experience. I've never expressed these opinions in front of the lower Enlisted. Sometimes I don't know the larger picture. The company commander makes decisions based upon what the battalion commander's intent is. I may not know that at the time.

I once told a Major that I have the greatest respect for that she was wrong. I know initially she did not like hearing me tell her that and she made a point to tell me at the time that I didn't know what I was talking about. She later came to me and apologized and told me that she reflected on what I had told her and she looked at the additional forces in play and saw where I was right.

I am an NCO which means I mentor, teach, advise, and take care of Soldiers- Enlisted, NCO, Warrant and Officer's that are Soldiers.

Just my take on things.

(There are NCO's, Warrants and Officers that make me roll my eyes and count to ten before I speak!)

Response by MAJ Derrick J. made Sep 5 at 2014 10:30 PM

MAJ Derrick J. — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 22:30:17 -0400

You know, the utter bullsh*t snide disrespectful comments from people in this thread are shameful and full of so many glittering generalities, I'm stunned at what I've read here.

For those enlisted who have demonstrated conduct unbecoming through your comments, SHAME ON YOU!!!!!!! If I were confronted with these comments and attitudes personally, heads would roll - and I'm not one of those officers - I do (and have done) a far better job at taking care of soldiers than most NCOs, and I supported my NCOs.

I only read a few comments here, but what I've seen made me not want to read any further. Whats wrong with those of you who posted such disrespectful comments?!

Response by TSgt Julie Miller made Sep 5 at 2014 10:38 PM

TSgt Julie Miller — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 22:38:26 -0400

As a retired NCO, let me see if I can shed a little light here based on my years of experience... Sadly, most of the officers an NCO will encounter come from the Academies'...and only bring with them book experience...

Now don't get me wrong... Officers learn a whole lot more about tactics and such, but an NCO has to learn from the ground up... from basic training and day-to-day experiences.... I had officers that tried in vain to tell me how to do my job as an analyst and database manager, not realizing that everything I knew I learned from daily tasks...

What you have to do, is establish yourself with your NCO's, get to know them, but also bring to the table what you are and will be doing for them. How you will represent them to the higher chain, what you expect from them as team members... Once you break that barrier down, you will go far... the hardest thing to do is earn trust..... Let them do their jobs, get to know what they do everyday and find out how you can improve their performance... it sounds hard, but in the long run it pays off....

Another thing to remember, is that many NCO's already have at least 8 yrs of active duty experience... the day-to-day stuff... you have around 2-3 yrs.. so for us, it's hard to sometimes move past that...... We know we have to... but still, when you have officers that demand instant respect, without giving it.... or earning it... makes for a long tour of duty....

Listen to your NCO's, talk to them.... get to know them..... establish yourself.... then reap the long term rewards.... best of luck.....

Response by CW2 Robert Rhine made Sep 5 at 2014 11:00 PM

CW2 Robert Rhine — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 23:00:39 -0400

After I was appointed to CW2 from SFC in 1984, I was often berated by CSMs who made the comment "Oh, another NCO who couldn't make it as an NCO so he became a Warrant." The biggest squabble I was ever in was when the BN CSM reassigned my Motor Sergeant within the BN without consulting with our 1SG or myself. My CO said to meet with the CSM and ask him about what was going on. The CSM was very belligerent to me and after about 5 minutes of not getting anywhere, threw me out of his office. All of this went on with the CSM's office door open and was overheard by the BN XO, who called me into his office to find out what was going on. I explained to him what I knew and he called the CSM into his office and gave him a direct order to return my Motor Sergeant back to his position in my Motor Pool.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2014 11:10 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 23:10:22 -0400

The issue I see is the officer commissioning system is extremely outdated. Officers are bred to believe in their superiority over the men from day one. Very few organizations in the world take a college, send them through a 9 month training program, and then entrust them with the lives of thirty men. The Army's answer is to attach an senior NCO to that person and pay them half of what the LT makes. Which would make sense if there wasn't an abundant number of high speed young enlisted soldiers who have already proven themselves, yet lack a college degree; which by the way, has lost its appeal in the civilian world. OCS and military academies should be the primary officer producing entities for the military. This doesn't even begin to address the protected career path officers are placed on. Nearly every LT will become a platoon leader and later likely gain a command because it's their turn instead of based on merit. Usually by the time they are a senior captain have the poor officers been weeded out. NCO's earn their positions based on merit (whether perceived or actual).

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2014 7:18 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Sep 2014 07:18:38 -0400

I think the question would be best asked "Why do some officers feel they are better than enlisted" better yet "senior enlisted".

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2014 7:23 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Sep 2014 07:23:17 -0400

As a warrant I can more easily relate to the NCOs so no I do not get told that. However I tell them to handle what they need to but keep me informed. I think where RLOs have a hard time is that they are only in their positions for 12 months where warrants, NCOs and joes are together far longer and are more entuned to each other.

Response by PO1 Michael G. made Sep 6 at 2014 9:38 AM

PO1 Michael G. — Sat, 06 Sep 2014 09:38:20 -0400

LTC Private RallyPoint Member Sir, I've seen that attitude in the Navy, both during my own brief active duty tenure, and watching my dad (a retired Master Chief) and his Sailors interact with officers. I've also seen that attitude in the civilian world (more below)

I think that the underlying attitude is still partially the remnants of class division. In generations past, Soldiers and Sailors were usually uneducated, sometimes school dropouts, whereas officers were college graduates. Go back further and the class division gets wider: the enlisted personnel had almost no formal education to speak of, while the officer corps came from the privileged few that did go to school and then on to a military academy.

I think another element of it is sometimes an age difference situation. Some NCOs and Petty Officers are older than a lot of junior officers and some people have a hard time getting their brain around the fact that a person with less experience who is younger than them has authority over them. This is not a unique situation to the military; before I enlisted in the Navy, I was a manager and I had plenty of employees who were older than me and had been with the company for a lot longer. A lot of them--consciously and otherwise--resented me for it, especially when I was first promoted; I'd been with the company for less than two years, and I was the youngest employee at the store where I was taking over the department. But I'd gone to a lot of management training that the company offered, and I was studying business administration in college. I (like the officer) had very valuable formal education and some of my older employees (who, like an NCO or Petty Officer, had more technical experience) didn't like that I was their boss.

Now, with that said, I wasn't going to lord it over anyone that I was in charge. I absolutely sought the advice of my senior employees. They'd had experience in our industry and could help point me in the right direction when I needed help. As I understand it, that's where Chiefs come in in the Navy; they help to guide and develop newly commissioned officers--people who do have authority and a lot of training but maybe lack experience. But this brings me to the third reason I think that this officer-negative attitude is sometimes apparent: there have been junior (and sometimes senior) officers who have lorded their authority over their subordinates--or at least give that impression--and they develop a bad reputation for the rest of the officer corps.

This was a little long-winded, but thanks for sticking it out and reading it to the end. To be clear, I don't empathize with the negative attitude that some of my shipmates display towards officers. I just feel that there are some parallels between my experience as a young manager and some of the attitudes that I came in contact with.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2014 12:09 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Sep 2014 12:09:02 -0400

I'm surprised there isn't a lot more feedback in here from the Warrant Officers and those who were prior enlisted Officers in here.

I agree there is the overall responsibility for Officers to know everything that goes on in their Company/Platoon, however, the overall responsibility of dealing directly with the Soldier falls into NCO business. That's the reason the NCO Support Channel exists. It allows everyone to know their inherent roles and be able to complete the mission.

That being said, there are certain things many Officers can't relate to that most enlisted undergo on a day by day basis... I believe that's what they mean when an Officer wouldn't understand.

I would think of it less a dig against who you are and what you're doing. Unless there is an underlying issue where your NCOs don't feel like they can come to you to either give you a heads up or be able to admit when they can't handle something at their level.

Response by MAJ Haris Balcinovic made Sep 6 at 2014 1:51 PM

MAJ Haris Balcinovic — Sat, 06 Sep 2014 13:51:42 -0400

Speaking from Army's view - I think that most of it stems from lack of experience and knowledge. Army has (for past 10 years or so) really expedited the promotion rates from 2LT - 1LT - CPT. I can't say that I'm complaining as I'm the beneficiary of the reduction of time in grade, but I remember distinctly as a young junior enlisted Soldier having a commander who was a 1LT for several years before pinning captain. I've personally seen an ROTC graduate who made CPT in 36 months, and got his 1st company command after 24 months total time in service which is absolutely ridiculous - Everybody expects 2LTs to stumble as they get experience, but the responsibility of running a company should come to somebody with a little bit more experience than that. Of course there are numerous officers who were prior enlisted (myself included) and I think that helps especially if they were good prior NCOs (and they do get different treatment from younger Soldiers), but when you have a young officer who thinks he/she knows everything that puts off majority of enlisted Soldiers and NCOs - to quote a meme running around FB, one of the 5 most dangerous things in the army is a 2LT saying"Based on my experience..."
However, all the NCOs complaining about officers have partially themselves to blame - it starts off with Platoon Sergeants who should help groom and develop those young LTs into good officers - As a company commander I had all of my platoon leaders glued at the hip with their PSGs. Obviously the respect to the rank comes first, but being able to learn from years of experience of a good NCO makes a tremendous difference when that officers makes it up through the ranks. The other blame goes on the senior CPTs and Field Grades who don't spend enough time grooming the young officers as well.
Finally, people have to realize that officers are human beings as well - they do and will make mistakes, it's how they and those around them respond to it. It's easy to say, "dumba$$ lieutenant" - it takes a leader and a good Soldier to approach them about, and teach them... We all know or have had horrible leaders (officers and NCOs) in our careers, and most of that could have been prevented.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2014 2:31 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Sep 2014 14:31:08 -0400

What I find hard is that I was once and NCO and was a SSG, I hate it when a soldier tells me I would not understand because "you are just an Officer" I always come back with well what part should I not understand? I have been in longer then you have been alive or I was a SGT longer then you have been in the military so what do I not understand? It usually changes how I am looked at and treated, not that all NCO's change when that is mentioned but most do tend to be far more understanding after that.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2014 3:30 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Sep 2014 15:30:49 -0400

As an enlisted Marine (veteran), I was always taught leadership should be exercised at the lowest possible level. This meant things like a 2ndLt didn't micro-manage police call b/c that's a Cpl's job or the squadron CO didn't get involved in a particular work center or shop's business, b/c that's a GySgt's job. My experience was that most junior officers are over eager to lead & impress their seniors. This leads them to make a very critical error: Not trusting the experience of their NCO's & SNCO's. A good officer ALWAYS listens to his NCO's & SNCO's. The higher up the officer food chain you go, the more important it is to heed the advice of your senior enlisted men. I think most officers realize this early on. They usually embarrass themselves once or twice & by the time they make 1stLt or Capt they usually have it figured out. But, no matter how good of an officer you are, there are always going to be enlisted men saying you don't get it or them.... And unless you were enlisted, you won't. You'll always be an outsider. You haven't earned that right. A good officer will in the trenches with his men & get his hands dirty, but not micro-manage. This goes a long way to building a bond, if you're genuine about it. If you're just going through the motions, your enlisted men will see that too. In opinion, every officer should be a Mustang. Every officer should have lived the life of an enlisted man for at least 2yrs, if not 4yrs.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2014 4:42 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Sep 2014 16:42:51 -0400

Its not that we feel you are all bad people Sir..the problem is that by the very nature of creation process...unless u were prior enlisted..you come in the Military making more money than we see till E6....and are are 22 with a college education....that in itself is not the problem....the problem is that the average enlisted SM comes in at 18..as an E1 or 2...getting paid nothing.....and usually gets into trouble if they are going to get into trouble...over money...then as an 0
O3.....u are going to slam that kid over writing bad checks....because you couldnt understand how he did it..and your right...u cant understand...because youve never been 20..married....have a kid....and dont have enough money for groceries and to pay the bills...that is not your fault...that is just the way the Military is set up...And no.. WOs dont get the same crap from NCOs that you do.becuase the majority of them were all NCOs before they switched over.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2014 6:20 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Sep 2014 18:20:38 -0400

Sir, I'm sure you've read your history on what the Officers did do join the Army in 1776. But what I think it comes down to is street smarts. You can be the a whiz in the classroom, but in the field you're a moron. As for Warrants, we get the gamut. Infantry and other CA types don't really know about us, so they think we are just as lost as LT's, most Soldiers forget we even exist, and those that do know our type will either ask for advice or still stiff arm us with "NCO business"

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2014 6:59 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Sep 2014 18:59:18 -0400

Some soldiers are jaded by past bad experiences with officers. Like anything they are hit or miss. Being a young officer, you are apt to make mistakes. Your position however, magnifies these for all to see in some cases and can have consequences. As an enlisted soldier, I had two PL's, both were not my idea of a strong and competent officer. One was even prior enlisted but was arrogant about it and could not be wrong since, "I was an E4".

Take things for they are, it is part of culture, a separation of two spheres. There has been this slant for much of the history of warfare and especially upon the advent of the professional military force vs the army of kings modelling, which used mercenaries.

I have gotten a few of these comments, they were in jest many from guys I knew prior to commissioning. As a unit get used to their new officers formations observe and size up the new officer. As things change their attitudes will. Over time they will learn there is no such thing as Officer vs NCOism's. I delegate and entrust them with things and include them into planning for their input, critiques and personal ownership of an endeavor to ensure lines of effort are all aligned. I observe and request their updates to track the overall scope and make sure the sludge of the day flows through the pipes. I don't micro manage unless someone gives me reason and for me to not trust their efforts.

I am interested in all aspects of endeavors from team to higher and inquire and observe for my personal knowledge. If I am watching chances are I am genuinely interested not there to step on anyone's toes. If I want a change I will talk to an NCO offline and they being the standard will make the changes. If I see something jacked up that is not a safety issue that needs to cease immediately, I will usually talk to my counter part, usually E7 or some cases E6 and ask them, is this correct? Why is this being permitted? Then they fix it, I am near by and guiding but I let them do it. NCOs (especially infantry) are very clannish and police their own and take great pride in their professionalism. I won't detract from that unless I have to. I empower them to make the changes and it is a measure of pride for them. I won't belittle or detract from their mission, power and place in a formation.

If stuff is super messed up or a safety issue, I will immediately step in, in most cases along side an NCO because those situations are pretty obvious.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2014 8:58 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Sep 2014 20:58:05 -0400

As flight superintendent, I try to keep my Flight Commander in the loop and involved as much as possible. He is my direct top cover and I cannot expect him to be effective at that if he has no clue what is going on. Also, he has experience from the officer side of the house that could prove useful, and his experience being involved in what is happening with his enlisted Airmen will prove useful to him as he climbs up the ladder and, hopefully in his case, becomes a squadron commander one day. We are a team, and teams aren't effective if they aren't communicating and on the same page.

It was only in the last two years that I heard this "keep the officers out of it" stuff, and I do not agree. The first time was when one of my junior NCOs was involved in an alcohol related incident and my old flight commander wanted to counsel and I wanted to reprimand, we agreed on admonishment. The fact that I involved him and let him have input didn't sit well with my senior enlisted leadership and I got an hour long talking to about not involving officers in "enlisted business".

I think it is just a manifestation of the enlisted force wanting to take ownership more and wanting to expand our role within the units we operate in. That's just my guess.

Response by SFC Nestor Nievesmoran made Sep 6 at 2014 9:12 PM

SFC Nestor Nievesmoran — Sat, 06 Sep 2014 21:12:09 -0400

And Officer and NCO goes side by side in every way, for every commander there is a Senior NCO at his side, because his experience. There is a big difference between an officer and a leader. A leader is that one that no matter how important his position or how high his rank is he is willing to learn from those that has the experience while an officer is that one that only worried of his rank and position and never is wrong. I have learn that a good PLT SGT will train his PLT Leader the Soldier skills that is required of a good leader but this cycle is is sometimes broken at company level, young company commanders want his LT to be like them and micromanage what they do and forget the importance that PLT SGT has in the development of that young officer. It goes all back to what is the definition of leadership and how we applied it in our professional way of life.

Response by SFC Vince Maggio made Sep 6 at 2014 10:18 PM

SFC Vince Maggio — Sat, 06 Sep 2014 22:18:01 -0400

Well as a retired SFC! I think I can help you understand. When you are looking at platoon level your platoon leader in many cases is a butter bar LT just out of college or the point. Their understanding of being a soldier in many cases is not real world Yet. The exception to that rule is NCO Green to Gold. The NCO has been in the trenches, they started out as that PVT. They did their time in KP, Guard duty and these days time on the line. Experience being a soldier, knowing soldiers because they have been a soldier. Books are nice but real world experiance trumps the books. when an officer builds a relationship of understanding what that experiance means and respects the NCO. Both Win, the soldiers Win... And the .country wins

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2014 11:00 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Sep 2014 23:00:20 -0400

I am a SSG with all intentions on going to OCS after the planned deployment we have coming up. Why? Because I truly believe that as a prior enlisted SNCO, I have the experience it takes to really help and train troops. Add that with a little more rank, and maybe I can have a more positive impact on a level beyond my current reach. Can non-prior enlisted make good officers though? Hell yes they can, as long as their NCO's train them up right and show/demand a level of respect. There are a lot of poor lower enlisted, but no one notices them as much as a poor officer (purely due to numbers and responsibilities). Officers - make good choices, lead by example and earn the respect of your troops!

Response by CPT Todd Jones made Sep 6 at 2014 11:43 PM

CPT Todd Jones — Sat, 06 Sep 2014 23:43:31 -0400

It's a fine balance between trust, respect, and proficiency that will make or break a leader. You don't have to micromanage your subordinates but at the same time you need to know the job if your subordinate stumbles. Everyone on the team has a role and their levels of experience should be studied and respected. That's how you earn respect from soldiers that have boots with more time in grade than a young PL. And never get outshot at the range...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2014 9:11 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Sep 2014 09:11:55 -0400

This is some thing that a Jr. Officer would say. Any field grade officer that has a clue knows that you need to learn the business before you can understand anything that NCO's are doing. Till that day comes you just need to tell me what someone has told you, sit back and watch it happen. O-1 - O-3 your just here to watch and learn from the NCO's and your senior officers. So I would say yeah a jr. officer wouldn't understand.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2014 10:53 AM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Sep 2014 10:53:35 -0400

Personally I don't think its a problem and that being an officer is a bad thing it's just that the role is completely different. Taking care of your troops is every leaders job but at what level it is done depends on your rank, where I think these comments and feelings are rooted are in the division of responsibilities. If my officers are worrying about the needs of an individual then that shows a problem some where in the chain of command most times. I know as an NCO if i have even a Senior NCO try to jump in and take care of a problem with one of my Marines I feel stepped on or like I'm not needed. It can get to the point where I've seen NCO's stop doing their job because they didn't feel they needed to, then the officers are doing more work. I was always taught that the officers job is to take care of the troops from external forces, where as the NCO is worried about internal forces. Problems should always be fixed at the lowest level possible, so if I can take care of a problem at my level I do because the high the problem gets in the chain of command the bigger deal it is weather it needs to be or not.

Response by PO1 Josh Noble made Sep 7 at 2014 11:44 AM

PO1 Josh Noble — Sun, 07 Sep 2014 11:44:55 -0400

I have seen both versions of this during my time in the Navy. You have leaders and you have bosses. A leader is someone willing to be in the front of the pack and lead the way to accomplish whatever task that needs to be done. A boss is just some guy that sits around and dictates how things are going to be done. In my experience, you learn a lot from a leader, not a boss. So all you guys hating on officers, just remember not all commissioned officers are like that. I've seen young officers come to my commands and show a willingness to learn the ropes and actually have some good ideas to make things better along the way. It can go both ways. I was an aviation machinist mate and yes my job was a dirty job turning wrenches to fix the aircraft engines so the officers can fly it again. I did occasionally get that one officer that was willing to go out there with and join in to make it all happen. I always said after experiencing that for the first time that a well rounded pilot knows everything about his/her aircraft. That includes turning that wrench to fix it.

Response by CW2 Donald Loughrey made Sep 7 at 2014 12:06 PM

CW2 Donald Loughrey — Sun, 07 Sep 2014 12:06:20 -0400

As a WO I did not but then I was an SFC when I was selected for WOC and that was more normal. The fact is, taking care of soldier issues is NCO business so unless asked for assistance I let the NCO's do their thing. I don't think soldiers are "disgusted" with officers in general. It all depends on the individual officer.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2014 5:25 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Sep 2014 17:25:01 -0400

It would depend on what was being discussed and the situation, as does most things. But if it was a discussions about a duty that is mostly done by enlisted or a struggle enlist only feel or see, then in that case, it would be in perfect place for someone to say, "you're an officer you wouldn't understand." It's not a bad thing to be an officer, there is just a different view point on certain things that officers don't see. In example, I fly on a helicopter, the pilots are obviously officers and I'm enlisted. If I were talking to someone about a jam on my gun and an officer was confused I might say they wouldn't understand because they have never shot the gun or had the jam or had to deal with everything that goes into it.

Response by SN Bryan King made Sep 7 at 2014 5:41 PM

SN Bryan King — Sun, 07 Sep 2014 17:41:27 -0400

I always treated an officer with respect too there face but idiot come in all ranks not just officers.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2014 10:32 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Sep 2014 22:32:03 -0400

I frankly hate the attitude that you have to have been a prior enlisted officer to be a good officer. I was never enlisted, I think I took care of the few enlisted troops under me well. I think leaders come in all shapes and sizes. There are good leaders and bad, in both the NCO and Commissioned ranks. I have seen the Air Force have many NCO's that reach E-7 and their main concern is playing politics and do what is necessary to climb to E-9 and they are not concerned with the welfare of their troops, as I have seen many Lt Cols do the same. Many times in my experience I will see a Tech Sergeant dress down an airman more than I have seen any officer go around and pull rank and through it around.

As for the idea that there is only officer business and enlisted business, well that depends. If its under your span of control than it is all your business. That does not mean that you need to be knee deep involved in every minor issue that arises if it can be handled at the lower level. That is the precepts of organizational management, not just in the military. It is always ideal to to take care of problems at the lowest level possible. I was taught that an effective leader will get out of the office and be seen by the troops and observe the daily actions. You can learn a lot on what is going on under you by just quietly observing, to be able to get a feel for the environment of the people working under you.

As an officer it is not my job to know the details of the specialized jobs that the airman are trained to do. It is my responsibility to make sure they are doing their jobs accomplishing their tasks in a timely manner to meet the metrics that i am charged with ensuring are being accomplished on time. I rely on the shop NCO's to be the expertise and mentor ship to train their people to accomplish the jobs at hand. Then I report those metrics to my chain who then reports them to the wing in weekly and monthly status reports. That does not mean that I did not have an open door policy to handle issues that may require top cover, in some cases requiring me to push an issue even further up the chain if it was outside my scope of authority. In some cases things go straight to the guy with G-series orders, like a DWI or some other criminal act.

Response by CPO John Best made Sep 8 at 2014 8:07 AM

CPO John Best — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 08:07:18 -0400

Most officers ( esp. Junior ones) have adopted a false superiority complex due to the " training" they have received). This breeds mistrust between them and the guys that actually work for a living. The smartest J.O. is the one that listens to his senior NCO and learns from him. Ask your people decent questions and act like you give a shit. You'll learn a lot and they will go the extra mile for you. You don't need to be friends, but you can build decent relationships with your people.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2014 8:58 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 08:58:54 -0400

In my 17 years, lines like this are ofttimes the NCO corps' way of saying, "I've been in for X-amount of years, and you don't know a damned thing, college boy/girl." Almost like a form of resentment at having to "suffer the whims of a 22-y.o. that has a degree and knows nothing about being a LEADER!!"

What seems to be forgotten is that, while we as NCOs CAN and SHOULD make decisions at our level, we should never leave our Officers in the dark. Does that mean going into extreme detail when we inform our O's? Not necessarily. If BUCN Carpenter overslept and was UA, that will show on the muster report, and the FTL /SQL (I'm a Seabee, so we have a Marine Corps-based unit structure) will address the issue with counselings, recommendations for extra-military instruction (EMI), etc, which go through the Chiefs. The Chiefs should inform the O's of EMI and further punitive recommendations IRT BUCN Carpenter.

If CMCN Wrench has severe financial problems, drinking problems, etc., then yes, the O's have every right - and NEED - to know, so they're not blindsided when these issues rear their ugly heads at the Bn level.

It's the job of the NCO's to ensure that our respective Officers aren't bogged down with menial and tedious BS, while being informed of what they need to know. The O's keep US from covered by BS from above; it's OUR job to cover THEM from the BS from below. Micromanaging and overbearing Khaki's can lead to NCOs trying to marginalize their Officers , so it's just as important for the Officer Corps to NOT be "that guy".

Personally, I've been blessed with OUTSTANDING Officers during my time, who knew when to engage / disengage. I've had more failings from the E7 - E9 community, who never knew when to disengage or engage.

Response by SSG John Silber made Sep 8 at 2014 11:12 AM

SSG John Silber — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 11:12:07 -0400

The distance between the two is due mostly to perception and sterotype. Many enlisted that have said this, in context usually are referring to the officer's lack of experience in a certain area. Officer's tend to have a mindset that once commissioned, they automatically have all the knowledge they need, and seem to think that because NCO's are subordinates, they know less for some reason, and are just there to carry out orders, which can be a fatal mistake and cause great discourse throughout the ranks. As a former platoon sergeant, my best advice to young officers is to listen to your NCO's, make solid judgments based on their input, and don't dismiss them just because you outrank them and think you know more than them. It is a complimentary relationship.

Response by PO3 Stephen West made Sep 8 at 2014 1:14 PM

PO3 Stephen West — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 13:14:26 -0400

A lot of that went on in the Navy, get an Ensign or Ltjg on board (especially in the engineering spaces) that thought their college education made them an expert when almost the entire crew in the pit had multiple years of experience working in hot dangerous environments. They learned pretty quickly to accept the recommendations of junior enlisted or they would be in front of the CHENG or worse.

Response by CPT Keith Steinhurst made Sep 8 at 2014 1:40 PM

CPT Keith Steinhurst — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 13:40:58 -0400

A definition of leadership that I committed to memory some years ago - "an art, gift, or science that allows one to direct the thoughts, plans, and actions of others" - a good in imperfect definition - another, by a former superintendent of West Point distinguishes the leader from the manager - "one can be a good leader and an bad manager, one can be a good manager and a bad leader, that case is a little more difficult to visualize, but in the Army, the distinction is important, you do not manage people up hills!" I like to think of myself as a pretty good officer, leader, and manager - some of my peers (in a 360 review at CAS3) remarked, he is the smartest guy in the room, but I would not want to go to war with him - that ladies and gentlemen is a damning kind of comment and a wake-up call for those intelligent enough to use constructive criticism to good effect - brains without field-craft are useless - those are the things that can get soldiers killed - perhaps safer in POG land, but I digress. The bottom line is that good officers recognize that their NCOs have been developed over time and have the rose for hands-on training of soldiers. Good officers let NCOs do their jobs. Conversely, good NCOs recognize that a good officer will let them do their job, but will also audit the results. Trust your NCOs, but count the stuff yourself! Have a great Army day! Cheers!

Response by CPO Jon Campbell made Sep 8 at 2014 6:00 PM

CPO Jon Campbell — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 18:00:47 -0400

Once while I was doing two weeks ADT, we had a change of command ceremony. An officer came up to me and really stared at my ribbons. I was an E5 at the time. He said he needed me to take my ribbons off, so I took my ribbon rack off and handed them to him. He didn't tell me what he wanted them for, but I gave them to him. He said he was going to hold onto them because since he had assigned me to work with an Ensign who didn't have any ribbons yet, it might not look good for a petty officer to have a lot of ribbons when she had none.
I'm pretty sure that this experience jaded my view of officers somewhat.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2014 6:51 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 18:51:20 -0400

I think it's important

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2014 7:35 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 19:35:55 -0400

Having been on both sides of the aisle, most of the time when enlisted say "you're just an officer," it's tongue in cheek. We all take care of Soldiers. NCO's primarily take care of the minutia and detail planning.
With my platoon, when my NCO's were gathered I purposely left left them alone. "NCO business, I'll leave you guys alone."
When it came to taking care of my Soldiers I was involved. I allowed the NCO's to do their job but I was tracking.
Now that that is established, it is good to be an officer. We effect much more change, which is in itself a double edged sword.

There used to be a very big stigma against going officer if you were enlisted. There used to be a big stigma about going to college or bettering yourself if you were enlisted. All of this you've been observing is are the not-so-great parts of a great NCO corps. Fortunately the stigmas have been dissipating.

Response by PO1 Allen Y. made Sep 8 at 2014 8:53 PM

PO1 Allen Y. — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 20:53:22 -0400

This speaks to the clear and ever present dividing line between enlisted and officer. In my opinion, this line is present in the Navy than any other branch. The customs and traditions that we uphold remind us everyday that we are separate. From wardrooms to even the games we play during off time. From a E-6 perspective. looking for advice or answers from those that lead them, CPO and above, will likely get better quality results from the CPO, because of more experience and knowledge, not just knowledge, than they would from an officer O-1 through O-3 who would focus more on knowledge. O's become dangerous when they combine knowledge with experience at O-3 and beyond. This is not to say that JO's are less capable just less experienced. However, junior enlisted would also fit into this category. This is strictly from a submariners experience, which is an environment that some would say is one of the most relaxed enlisted to officer relationships. I do not take issue with the rank and structure of the military as it is obviously imperative to good order and discipline.

Response by SPC David S. made Sep 8 at 2014 10:20 PM

SPC David S. — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 22:20:43 -0400

Once a CPT asked me how "the jeep" started. I will admit that the word start was worn but it was indeed a HUMVEE. These kind of things make us enlisted types feel a bit uneasy sir. While I get that both officer and enlisted bring a different skill set it still knocked my confidence in him down and it was hard to shake. On the flip side I'm sure I did a few bonehead moves that made an officer or two go humm?

Response by SFC Michael Hartwig made Sep 8 at 2014 10:39 PM

SFC Michael Hartwig — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 22:39:24 -0400

I can only answer for the "taking care of Soldiers" as it is the NCO corps' job to take care of Soldiers. I have been scolded many times by my past Commander for calling them "my men" When in fact he would be gone before me and I had mentored those men for a loong time. I still consider them my men even though I haven't belonged to that unit for 2 1/2 years. Officers on the other hand need to worry about mission accomplishment and if they are trying to take on the role of an NCO they may fail at that task.

Response by SFC Michael Hartwig made Sep 8 at 2014 11:29 PM

SFC Michael Hartwig — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 23:29:58 -0400

My current CSM has banned the phrase "NCO business" and states that we should use "Leader Business" instead. Keeps us all in check wiht the leadership structure I guess. We get a little too comfy at this level sometimes and a first name may slip out.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2014 9:28 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 09:28:15 -0400

A commission isn't a license to exercise your personality quirks--nor is any leadership position. Ah, but lest we forget--NCOs are "officers" too, without the Presidential Commission. Non-commissioned officers are charged by Congress to maintain order, discipline, customs, and traditions. We would be wise to impress that fact--that they are officers too upon the code of conduct. Taking care of soldiers is every soldier's business in a unit with high esprit.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2014 3:10 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 15:10:51 -0400

This is not new in terms highlighting perceptions between enlisted vs. commissioned personnel and they're are some very valid points on BOTH sides. However, I will say this and leave it here: If you have never commissioned, don't speak on the benefits/disadvantages of an officer, and the same is true flipped around the other way. You've never experienced it and are only on the outside looking in.

Nobody, commissioned or not, deserves the tab of "not needed" and if this is your mentality, then maybe you should consider withdrawing from the Armed Forces and start a home-based business.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 19 at 2014 12:13 PM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 12:13:06 -0400

Wow, lots of resentment here both against officers and enlisted. I'm not sure I ever understood that. I served 11 years as enlisted making E-6 before I was commissioned through OTS. I enjoyed every day as an enlisted technician/supervisor but had more fun as a security police officer. My degrees didn't make me a better leader but opened doors both in the military as well as when I retired.

Not all the officers I served with who had prior enlisted time were good officers, most were but there were a fair number of dumb asses with prior enlisted time.

I never thought I was better than my NCO's but in some cases I was better than some of my NCO's. Why? Because they couldn't do their jobs like the majority of NCO's could and officers before me didn't weed them out of the service.

Response by SN Bryan King made Sep 19 at 2014 12:50 PM

SN Bryan King — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 12:50:42 -0400

I respected the rank, but not some men. Since you had the honor of serving some act like they did not know what that entailed. Just because some are officers does not mean they are good people, but I worked for a MK1 that was not worth my time but I always respected his rank but not him. When in service had I been asked too go too OCS, I would have taken that Honor!

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 21 at 2014 3:36 PM

ENS Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Sep 2014 15:36:56 -0400

From the short time I've been in the active duty field, I've seen a few reasons why there is such disgust from the enlisted ranks to the standard JO (non-LDO/WO). The first and foremost is an officer who sits there and acts like their degree and mere gold bars equate to being more knowledgeable than the enlisted guy. Working with the senior enlisted personnel in your division is a must to success. But a young JO cannot earn any respect by sitting there and ordering a E5 to do their job a certain way and have no clue how to do it.

The 2nd thing I've learned is the JO desk jockey. It's absolutely crucial to learn your job and learn the jobs of the people in your division to succeed. Get out on the deck plates, talk with the folks, learn what they are doing. I'm yet to come across someone that is against a JO going out and genuinely being curious about what they are doing and how they are doing it.

The 3rd thing I've learned about how to be a decent officer is the idea of dumb/bullshit ideas. I've seen this one on two different accounts, one of which directly affected me. The first is a senior officer (DH level) that says personnel WILL work til "X" time, usually much later than any of the personnel are actually working til. I wasn't directly affected by it, but I heard the grumbles around the ship about having to sit around, waiting for end of days for a long period of time after they completed their work. If work is complete and the docket is manageable, let your guys go. Some days will be later than others, that happens and the guys/gals understand that. But to say "You will work til this time, every day," it breeds an atmosphere of not taking pride in your work and not having any motivation to get work accomplished early.
On the other side of that, sometimes senior officers will give you your marching orders and you have no choice but to carry them out. You've exhausted your case about why it's a bad decision, you've attempted to change their mind and understand a different side of logic, but they are adamant about doing whatever it is they want done. That's when you take your guys aside, explain the situation, and remember the hard work they've done this time and pay it back to them. Take care of the guys in your division and the word will get around the ship/station about how you are an officer that 1. Cares about his personnel and 2. Gives a damn about what they think. From my experience, you do that and they'll walk to the ends of the earth for you.

Response by SN Bryan King made Sep 21 at 2014 7:11 PM

SN Bryan King — Sun, 21 Sep 2014 19:11:10 -0400

I hope none of you and that are making idiotic statements about Officers are not in service! You don't have too respect the man but you better respect the rank!

Response by PO2 Kevin LaCroix made Sep 22 at 2014 12:08 PM

PO2 Kevin LaCroix — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:08:52 -0400

Being an officer is a good thing. So is being enlisted. Both have a very distinct and need role in the military. I have even suggested to my son to be an officer, I was enlisted.

Officers and enlisted need to know and understand their respective roles in the command structure. The military needs to do a better job in training officers and NCO's in respect for each others roles and duties..

Response by SSG Laureano Pabon made Sep 23 at 2014 4:15 PM

SSG Laureano Pabon — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 16:15:47 -0400

I had a bit of a difficult time to write my take on this thread.
Perhaps because I come from the same Army with new SM's.
In my time, if an officer or NCO wanted to learn my job, it would be an invitation I would not refuse. Same with me if I wanted to learn an officers job, that officer would not hesitate to teach me. Thing is that it took place and we found it so more easier to be able to not just communicate, but to actually work together as a unit. In my time if an officer wanted to do sing cadence, it was more then welcome.
One thing for sure, if a platoon leader brought defective equipment to me, he didn't have too, but when they did, I would never doubt they were 100% in there diagnoses because I trained them. Same with me and CO. We were sure of each other without questions asked.

Here is a true story I want to share:
Back when I was sort of new in the Army, we went to Germany on a reforger exercise, I would say that anyone who's been to Germany can look at the sky's late on a clear sky and see the stars.
My name was: "Little man", as my NCO would call me because I guess he took me in as a son.
That one night I went to sleep on the top hatch of an M113 (The CO's Command track). The hatch was open and locked secured. It was a nice summer night, I gazed at the stars, then fell asleep in my sleeping bag.
That night I had a dream (Night mare) that I was falling into a dark black nothingness. When I fell, it was inside the command track on top of thick soft cushions that were on top of a series of FM (RT 524 and RT 246 Radios).
When I got up I saw the CO, 1st SGT, a 2nd LT my NCO IC's 2 of them looking at me land right on top. After they saw me they kind of laughed. I started laughing alone with them. Because before I went to sleep there were no cushions on those heavy 50 LBS radios that were covering almost the entire floor.
What really happened:
When I said good night to every one in the track, the CO had a meeting in his track, the radio's were blasting off, the CO was giving instruction to every one there, as for the next moves and what have you. My NCO IC all of the sudden had premonition or something told him to put all the thick soft cushions on top of the radios. He did, every one was curious as why so every started to help him not knowing why nor really what purpose it would serve.
Shortly after he had placed all the cushions here I come landing right smack on top.
If it had not been for both NCO's and Officers to act and cooperate with each other, I would have not been here in RP to tell you this story. I would have been dead.
I am forever grateful to those NCO's and Officers where present that night and because of them I have a great amount of respect to both Officer and NCO Corps.
LTC Private RallyPoint Member, being an officer is not such a bad thing, I wish I could tell you my stories with officers but not here, but I will assure you it is all good.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2014 6:20 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 18:20:44 -0400

There is an unfortunate amount of officers who take advantage where they have no place. There are too many of them giving the officer corps a bad image in general. Quite often, when a soldier gets screwed over, it's not by an NCO. The Enlisted soldiers are the ones who do all the work, who take care of business. Here's an example of an officer, as far as I know them, on their perception of the enlisted: An officer, from my BDE, entered a room full of officers...not knowing of the E7 doing his job at a desk....and says, "I'm so glad to be among all you "gentlemen" and not around the f'ing enlisted." Boy was he embarrassed (due to guilt I'm sure) when the E7 smiled and waved saying "Hey Sir, how are you doing?"

When I see more officers act like gentlemen, I'll consider them as such. ...honestly, I could go on and on for hours on why officers have a bad image and why good NCO's are becoming officers to clean house. So I'll just leave it at that.

I apologize if you are a good officer. If so, just know that's the image officers have. That and too many don't know their own jobs haha...generally 2LTs.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 24 at 2014 3:00 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Sep 2014 15:00:59 -0400

By the way, in response to your Q, I've experimented with using my different ranks on Rally Point to see which ones get the most responses. As a Captain (my reserve rank) I get hardly any. As a CSM or SGM I get many times more in that order of priority. Hopefully our thoughts and perspectives carry more weight than rank!

Response by LTC Mark Gavula made Sep 26 at 2014 2:11 AM

LTC Mark Gavula — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 02:11:04 -0400

I have asked myself the same question early in my career until I figured it out. The NCOs and Soldiers that say the things in your statement are simply jealous. Nothing really makes an officer special. However, we made a decision to become an officer whether it was through the academy system, ROTC or OCS. They either did not know they had the opportunities to make the choices to follow the enlisted career path or the officer career path, or when they figured out they could make the decision to become an officer there was a conflict in priorities, and they chose to continue on the enlisted career path.

Response by SGT Mark Rhodes made Sep 26 at 2014 12:27 PM

SGT Mark Rhodes — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 12:27:56 -0400

Sir it is not a disrespect to the officer it's that as NCO I considered myself to know that it's my job to take care if junior enlisted matters and if I needed handle everything that encompasses. I have nothing but respect for all officers (my daughter is a 2Lt) but I think enlisted matters should be handled by the enlisted then if needed the Officer would be involved. I would also after handling the course of duty I would then inform the Officer what I did to correct any matter. Air Assault Sir.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2014 6:53 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 18:53:33 -0400

I am going to take a business/market approach to this question because no-one else has...just for fun. Being an officer is not "such a bad thing" because the pay check is bigger and the responsibility greater. It's that simple. If you want to be one, fork out the bucks and time to get a college degree and go through the training and get your commission. If you don't want to select that option, you have lost the right to bitch. America is the land of opportunity, something we all have defended. To bitch and moan about your superiors is symptomatic of the government worker mentality which most capitalist like me despise. Try the corporate world that I live in now. You can fire someone without cause and clear out there locker before 5 p.m. and cut off their paycheck without notice. Taking on leadership and responsibility should be rewarded. And if we are all honest with ourselves, it's hard not to respect the fella above you that gets his head ripped off, instead of yours, simply because he is the officer in charge. If I got a bonus for every time I took a hit for my men, I would be a very rich man.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Oct 8 at 2014 12:42 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 12:42:20 -0400

Its the eternal struggle of the class/cast system - labor will always hate management. :-)

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made Oct 8 at 2014 4:00 PM

1LT Nick Kidwell — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 16:00:31 -0400

It's partly because some NCOs have been trained to respectfully treat their officer as a sort of E1 with rank, and it's partly because some officers ACT like a sort of E1 with rank...

Response by PO2 Robert Levin made Oct 12 at 2014 1:36 AM

PO2 Robert Levin — Sun, 12 Oct 2014 01:36:05 -0400

maybe it's because this headline is seen too often.
http://www.navytimes.com/article/20141010/NEWS/310100055/Destroyer-leaders-disciplined-duty-dereliction

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Nov 13 at 2014 2:17 PM

SGT Kristin Wiley — Thu, 13 Nov 2014 14:17:16 -0500

First off, there is no such thing as NCO business. If an NCO tells you this, I would be concerned and want to know what's going on that you 'shouldn't' be involved in. I have mostly heard this phrased coined by NCOs who do not want to justify the moral intent of their actions.

In response to your actual question, I don't think officers are a bad thing. You can commission as an officer typically between the ranks of O-1 to O-3, so as an O-3 many soldiers do not know if you are new to the Army and have no idea what you're doing or have years of experience. When I was in Air Force ROTC, my flight commander said "I did not make one decision without the recommendation of my Senior Enlisted for the first 12 years of my career." When I heard this statement I interpreted it as he did not know what he was doing for 12 years of his career. I do not want leaders who have no idea what they are doing.

In the commands I have been with, officers scarcely show up to PT, training events, or other unit activities. It is hard to believe they know what they are doing when they do not train and fight beside us. Soldiers want to be led from the front, many officers fail to do that. It’s not that there is anything wrong with officers, but many officers have cast a negative perception on themselves and that is sometimes all enlisted personnel see.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2014 10:44 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 22:44:54 -0500

I would answer this, Sir, but you are an Officer and I don't think you would understand. :|

Response by SGT Scott Bailey made Jan 26 at 2015 8:47 PM

SGT Scott Bailey — Mon, 26 Jan 2015 20:47:14 -0500

Sir, it's embedded in us in basic training. I think the intent is to give the EM a sense of self esteem. Believe me sir, we were taught way more about respecting you than Jodi talk. Army soldiers respect our officers very much. We know we have the best officers than any Army in the world. Please don't take those comments seriously. Because those same men would dive in front of a bullet to save you. It's our duty! And an honor to die to protect you sir.

Response by SGT Scott Bailey made Jan 27 at 2015 12:20 AM

SGT Scott Bailey — Tue, 27 Jan 2015 00:20:17 -0500

Sir, those comments bring back many memories. LOL they learn to say that about you from their predecessors. Those same words were mumbled from my mouth at one time or another only because we were taught that we should have that type of mentalitytoward officers.it was all just play though. Everyone of us knows that we have them opportunities just the same but some of us were too lazy and some of us just didn't want to be a commissioned officer but you are commended for stepping up to the plate and doing so. One day you may lead men into battle. I commend you for doing so when the time comes or if it hasn't already.

Response by SGT Scott Bailey made Jan 27 at 2015 12:21 AM

SGT Scott Bailey — Tue, 27 Jan 2015 00:21:35 -0500

Capt., I would blindly follow you into battle. Because you are a captain in our military and only the best get to that point. And if you ever command me I will protect you with my life. Unfortunately this scenario probably will never happen

Response by SFC Steven Harvey made Jan 27 at 2015 9:14 AM

SFC Steven Harvey — Tue, 27 Jan 2015 09:14:17 -0500

To be completely honest the best officers I've had have all been prior enlisted. Some became NCOs just prior to going to OCS but all of them had a certain level of experience and understanding.

I've had great officers who just got a commission after ROTC too, but there is definitely a difference. Especially if you are the PSG dealing with a brand new LT from either side of the house.

Some of the worst officers I've had have been those from West Point, why I have no idea but they didn't take criticism or advice very well.

Granted that's as a new LT so I'm sure when they make LTC they would have grown tremendously.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jan 27 at 2015 9:14 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Tue, 27 Jan 2015 09:14:35 -0500

There is nothing wrong with being an officer in and of itself. However, there are some experiences that officers just won't receive. Just like there are some experiences enlisted won't receive. That makes being an officer 'different' than being an enlisted. Not bad, or good.

It's a matter of context.

Because of that context, how an officer would handle a specific situation would be completely different than how an enlisted would handle the same situation.

That said, if an NCO requests that they handle something it might not necessarily be because they think you will handle it badly, but differently than they will. They may have a specific course of action they want to follow, and they believe the one you are likely to follow is would deviate from that.

Response by CPO Emmett (Bud) Carpenter made Jan 27 at 2015 2:02 PM

CPO Emmett (Bud) Carpenter — Tue, 27 Jan 2015 14:02:11 -0500

I spent most of my 24 years on active duty in Fighters Squardons. Nobody on this green earth has a bigger ego then a navy fighter pilot It's required for the job. To be the first to launch on a dark night in high seas to face a unknown enemy takes a pair of big brass ones My job as a chief petty officer was to train junior officers. This was at times a difficult job but at no time did I ever yell at one or treat them with disrespect As my maintenance officer,an 04 , told a young Lt, I was having problems with, "if you can't handle the chief you need to find employment else were"

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Jan 28 at 2015 9:18 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 09:18:21 -0500

The biggest issue is poorly defined lane of responsibilities between the officer and NCO. Which is not a predefined task list, but a give and take based of individual straights, weakness, and requiermemts from higher headquarters.

Once the officer and and see you I'm going to agreement of whose responsibility is to do what there should be no issues with not my job not your job

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2015 10:23 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 10:23:08 -0500

IMHO, most O vs E emotion comes from officers who may think they're better than the NCOs (because they're officers). It all comes down to respect. Respect for the jobs and sacrifices the enlisted force makes, and generating a positive interaction. The easiest way a young 2LT can get respect from an NCO, is for that LT to trust the NCOs and their advice/counsel, and balance that in the equations of the responsibilities the O's have. No, the military is not a democracy; that is a "right" we give up when we sign up. But that doesn't mean an officer can't be respectful to an enlisted soldier/sailor/airman/Marine, while the enlisted is respectful toward the officer not just because of their rank, but for the job they do and the way they lead.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2015 11:02 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 11:02:17 -0500

Sometimes it's good hearted ribbing, others it's those who for some reasons don't like for officers to interfere. I personally like to know if there is something I need an officer to help me get something done and take care of soldiers that they are ready and willing to handle business. I don't think some of it is meant to be disrespectful, but may come off like it is. Being an officer is not a bad thing. From what I've seen, you all work hard to get your commission and to maintain your promotion eligibility. You also are the ones who will catch the flack ultimately of there is something wrong, regardless of someone told you about it or not. A good NCO will keep you updated and come for input and assistance, especially in the area of soldier care.

Response by SGT Allison Churchill made Jan 28 at 2015 12:21 PM

SGT Allison Churchill — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 12:21:30 -0500

I often got along better with officers, but I enlisted a little later (I went to basic training at 25) and I had a bachelor's--public affairs on the enlisted side sounded much more like what I'd gone to college to do (and officers aren't guaranteed the job they want).

But I was also always in really small public affairs teams that brigade leadership didn't quite know what to do with, since I got to Fort Hood right after 4ID restructured, so we had a lot more independence than most junior enlisted soldiers get right after training.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2015 12:30 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 12:30:18 -0500

I had a battalion commander who I think said it best: certain things are "NCO business," but NCO business is officer business. The harsh, sometimes very unpopular, truth is that officers and NCOs are never peers, and responsibility and accountability start and end with officers. I don't mean that officers are the only ones with any responsibility or the only ones burdened with accountability. But if a commander, which is always an officer, fails to reprimand or remove someone under his or her command, then it is that officer which should be removed.

At the risk of going on a tangent, I truly do not understand the proposed alternatives (it would be unfair to call them arguments). I mean the proposals to do away with officers altogether, or to make some officers (or maybe all) subordinate to some (all?) NCOs. There are only two options: a bifurcated rank structure, which we have, or a unified rank structure. In the former, most of the authority is vested in the members of one rank ladder. Let's call these "commissions." That means that, even if we pair members of the two distinct ladders, like an Army Captain and First Sergeant, primary command authority can only be vested in one. In other words, one is necessarily subordinate to the other. Does it really matter what title we attach to the one with that authority?

Response by SFC Richard M. made Jan 30 at 2015 6:55 AM

SFC Richard M. — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 06:55:16 -0500

Me personally, I do believe that there is such a thing as NCO business, and that it is separated from Officer business. But it stems from respect, rather than disrespect.

For everyone out there who has forgotten the NCO Creed, it states:

"Officers in my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties, they will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and confidence as well as that of my Soldiers."

As far as the "You are an officer, you wouldn't understand." I think that has been developed from the stereotype that young lieutenants bring to the table. It's not always correct, but it's there. In fairness though, I also believe that NCO's can become too hard-headed and stubborn to take suggestions from anyone, let alone an officer. Neither situation is healthy for the Soldiers and should be worked out ASAP.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 9:31 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 09:31:05 -0500

Congratulations! Both sides have done an outstanding job of completely making asses out of themselves. And we wonder why there is such a pathetic relationship between our officers and NCOs.

This is the worst post and comments I have seen on this site. Makes me sick!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 11:15 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 11:15:44 -0500

There are some lanes of responsibility that are just different. Discipline for example. I was an E6 and an Infantry squad leader for a couple of years before I commissioned, so I have been on both sets of responsibility lanes.

Most of my troops today don't have that mentality towards me, but then I don't try to discipline every individual Soldier that deserves it. I've never had to do it as an Officer, but the only way I would step into the NCO discipline lane is if I felt the re-training was approaching hazing or retaliation. Nothing wrong with a few push ups to reinforce standards.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 10:36 PM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 22:36:25 -0500

I am enlisted and I am in the ROTC program at my university. I am not even an officer yet and I get this. When I was in high school my English teacher knew I was going to do ROTC and even he had something negative to say about it and he had no military experience. I don't get it

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2015 5:13 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Feb 2015 17:13:38 -0500

LTC Private RallyPoint Member I don't think being an officer is a bad thing. After all, you and I are both officers. You are commissioned while I am non-commissioned. And some are warrant =)

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2015 8:51 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Feb 2015 20:51:47 -0500

I hit 20 years next month and the 1st 7 1/2 of those I was enlisted, so I have the experience of having seen things from multiple levels. Your comment about NCO's taking care of Soldiers being their business has some truth when talking direct responsibilities but as an officer we should be setting the conditions and fostering a climate where taking care of our Soldiers while accomplishing the mission is our 1st priority. Now as an officer we can and still should take care of Soldiers but we cannot and should not do our NCOs job for them. That's one of the highest form of disrespect to someone is to do their job for them. That tell them you do not trust them to do so. We should be mentoring and developing our Junior Officers. As far as your original question, that's just the nature of things sometime. If I am working in a factory on an assembly line then I am talking about the guy in charge of the line and he is talking about the woman in charge of the department and we all are talking about the corporate officer and how out of touch they are.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Feb 15 at 2015 8:58 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Sun, 15 Feb 2015 20:58:53 -0500

Years ago I walked into a car dealership in civilian attire to look at a car and before I got serious they handed me a piece of paper and said I had to get an "officer" to sign it. I took the piece and paper, a pen and I signed it in front of them and said, "I am an officer, a Noncommissioned Officer" and I then I gave the piece of paper back and to them to run my credit and I don't need a stinkin' officer to tell me whether or not a grown man can buy a car. Apparently, officers are the bees knees at some car dealerships.

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Feb 15 at 2015 10:53 PM

LTC Stephen C. — Sun, 15 Feb 2015 22:53:12 -0500

LTC Private RallyPoint Member, to answer your question with great specificity, being a commissioned officer is not a bad thing.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2015 12:31 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Apr 2015 12:31:04 -0400

Sir, simply put there are good officers, and there are bad officers. Same goes for enlisted ranks. More often than not, officers understand bits and pieces, but don't have all the pieces of the puzzle however still feel they are the experts at assembling it.

I have worked with some officers that did everything they could to understand all aspects of every job in their unit by getting involved and getting their hands dirty. It did not take them long to realize it would be impossible for them to understand everything and began to trust and listen to their NCO's. These officers earn the respect of everyone in their unit, and anyone would gladly follow them.

At the same time, I have worked for officers that never leave their office because they feel they already know everything and have no need too. These officers give orders that make little to no sense, and quite often would lead to destruction of equipment and death or injury to personnel if followed. These are the officers that refuse to listen to the NCO's and demand respect because no one shows them any.

This 2nd type of officer tends to be the most commonly encountered. Because of this, it has become an officer stereotype that all officers are this way and is assumed to be the case until the officer has proven different.

A good NCO will attempt to talk to the officer in private to make them aware of the situation and inform them of the impact of their decisions. A good officer will take this advice to heart, and become the first the officer mentioned.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 9:23 PM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 21:23:45 -0400

I served for 24 years, 11 years as an NCO and 13 years as an officer. Right or wrong there was usually instant respect because I had been an NCO. That respect sometimes was proven wrong because not all officers including prior NCOs were good officers.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 9:37 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 21:37:28 -0400

I haven't been in as long as most others, but from what I've seen is that officers are considered just college boys or girls not knowing the feeling the down and dirty of the enlisted side. To contradict that statement I've also have a co and LT who did green to hold and know the enlisted soldiers "struggle" but my belief we fight our own separate battles and in the end we are all fighting the same fight for the mission! One mission one fight no matter how big our how small we are a team. No mission to difficult no sacrifice to great duty first!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 10:27 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 22:27:21 -0400

I've gotten similar responses in the past, even with talking to Veterans who hung up their uniform long ago. I think some of it some is just sour grapes and/or bravado. Not unlike the whole worker v. management dynamic we have in the civilian world. I also think some of it is derived from not understanding what Officers actually do.

As a new PL I encountered some of the same attitudes. I remember during a particularly successful training day my PSG and I decided to swap in some of our junior leaders to lead the last STX lane. I got behind the gun, while one my SGTs was the PL. Our new "PL" fell apart once we hit contact. I ended up telling him what to do from the turret because his Platoon was getting tore apart. His attitude changed dramatically after that. His words were: "I had no idea it was so much work."

What I do find interesting about the whole dynamic is how Officers are all lumped together. If an NCO is a soup sandwhich, only the individual is held accountable. However, when an Officer does something stupid the collective group bears their sin. It's been my experience in the last 8 years that there's plenty of stupid and incompetence to go around, regardless of whether they wear chevrons or brass.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 8 at 2015 4:23 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sat, 08 Aug 2015 16:23:26 -0400

If I asked a question the NCOs better answer me without giving me a snide remark. Otherwise, I let them to do their NCO tasks without micromanagement as long as they were following my command philosophy.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2015 4:54 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Aug 2015 16:54:52 -0400

I think this sums it up.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2015 8:56 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Aug 2015 20:56:00 -0400

1. There can be an impression by enlisted that officers (at least JOs) haven't really _earned_ the position of authority they have. They went to school for 4 years (in some cases with no relation to the military or their assigned job) and are placed in charge of people with years of experience who have had specialized training in exactly what they do. I'm not saying this impression is accurate fact, but the idea exists.
2. Any enlisted with a modicum of experience has usually had at least one negative experience reinforcing number one.* With some individual officer proving that they do not have a clue what they're about, but because they are an officer, there's no gainsaying them.
3. Sometimes it honestly isn't officer business _yet_. The chain of command exists for a reason and if everything is prematurely escalated to the O-level, it's like the boy who called wolf, or maybe like foolish people that label all of their email important. Going through at least a supervisor, a senior NCO, and only then an officer ensures that anything at that level should be something that NEEDS to be taken care of NOW. An officer that doesn't recognize or appear to recognize this is yet another example of number two.
Hopefully with 9 years and/or O-3, instances of this are diminishing for yourself sir.

*My story was our Operations officer telling me exact details of how I should be troubleshooting a piece of equipment. He was wrong; otherwise this would of course be a different story. I asked around and found that his bachelors was in Music, yet he felt qualified to tell me how to do work on my equipment that I went to school for two solid years on! Not college years of 9 months with a full load being 18 hours a week, at least half spent on humanities and social sciences; training 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, targeted directly towards being an Electronic Technician on UHF Systems. Examples like this do tend to bring down the internal level of respect, even if customs and regulations dictate the external expression.
**Now granted, later on I had an brand new E-7, who was not the best, give me lame marks on an evaluation; and this same officer, based on actually seeing me perform for the entire advancement cycle, bumped it up when it came across his desk. But it's unfortunately human nature for the negative to make more of an impression on most people.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2015 11:34 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Aug 2015 23:34:59 -0400

I believe that officers have their own realm of responsibility and too many times NCO's get their toes stepped on by officers with an agenda all their own. We need to work together as a team rather than working against each other. There is always a commissioned officer and a non commissioned officer who act too big for their britches. Its not exclusively commissioned officers.

Response by MSgt Rena Schmidt made Apr 22 at 2016 3:02 PM

MSgt Rena Schmidt — Fri, 22 Apr 2016 15:02:31 -0400

Because so many of them are jerks and treat everyone terrible. Plus many are afraid to get to close to an officer for fear of reprisal for anything. And many are just ribbing you. As an officer you training was more in the operations portion whereas we are the guys in production. Simple misconception

Response by SPC Kenneth Koerperich made Apr 23 at 2016 1:30 AM

SPC Kenneth Koerperich — Sat, 23 Apr 2016 01:30:09 -0400

In my time in, I only met 3 officers worth their salt. At the time, Lt. Robert Cloutier(now MajGen), Cpt. Barney Morris, LtCol Hale. They all led by example. All the rest I met fell by the wayside due to:

Ring Knocker who thought they were better than everybody else, & were in just to be PC & advance.
Legacies who used their fathers influence to advance.
Book worms w/ no common sense & never tried to learn that books aren't always correct.
Hard chargers w/o common sense, little guy be damned.
I'm in charge types, who ignored their NCO's, & only looked out for their own careers.

Don't know what it is, but I guess it's the "Power Trip" that ruins a lot of officers. & now a days, all the PC crap doesn't help. Not PC your career gets ended before it starts. So way to many IMO, just don't care. They do what it takes to "shine" & move up the ranks w/ no concerns about who they squash/kill/ruin in the process.

Just my take on all that I met in my day.

Just an opinion though. Don't get pissy.

Response by CPT William Hoh made Aug 24 at 2019 12:36 PM

CPT William Hoh — Sat, 24 Aug 2019 12:36:12 -0400

My best friend started as a private in the army, and rose to the rank of lieutenant colonel. I think he would understand NCOs better than most. There's no substitute for experience.

Just as many officers don't know what NCOs experiences, the same is true that many NCOs don't know what officers experience on a regular basis. That's why it's called a TEAM.

I would never disrespect somebody The way the NCO did this example. And I do agree that new lieutenant was probably inexperienced and made an assumption. I don't think it was meant as condescension.

Response by MSG Thomas Currie made Feb 18 at 2023 10:55 AM

MSG Thomas Currie — Sat, 18 Feb 2023 10:55:15 -0500

There are several reasons that have to do with official and unofficial US Army policy and traditions. One of your examples was "taking care of soldiers" -- which is every leader's job, but how they accomplish that is very different. The officer's role is largely to ensure that the needed assets are available and that policies support proper utilization; the NCO's role is actually getting those resources to the soldiers and seeing that the policies are carried out.

For better or worse, in the real world it is often necessary to do things that bend or blatantly break the rules. The NCO is more likely to recognize those situations and find a "work around" to accomplish the mission - hopefully without incurring the wrath of the higher headquarters whose mistake created the problem. Many of those "you wouldn't understand" or "let us handle this" situations are really your NCOs telling you "you don't want to know" because they are willing to give you plausible deniability.

As for the general attitudes, look at the common officer/NCO pairings and even an officer will see where this comes from...

2LT/SFC - these two have nothing in common. The 2LT is fresh out of college plus a branch OBC, the SFC (or even a senior SSG in an SFC slot) has a decade of experience actually doing the job that the 2LT has been told he is responsible for. In days long past, these two barely spoke the same language. Today there is a good chance they both have a four year college degree, but if that degree is in any relevant field, the SFC has vastly more experience.

CPT/1SG - the officer now has some military experience, but his priorities are entirely different from those of his 1SG. That 1SG literally has "more time in the chow line" than the CPT has in the Army.

LTC/CSM - the experience gap has narrowed and the education gap is essentially nonexistent. Both may or may not be working the politics of further advancement, or might be looking forward to retirement, but each has been molded by the culture of the Army.

At higher levels, the two become nearly indistinguishable.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Feb 18 at 2023 2:28 PM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Sat, 18 Feb 2023 14:28:43 -0500

I have been both E nd O. Whenever I have heard comments like that then I retort with well if it isn'ty job then why do I feel the need to step in...what NCOs and you gee speak they were poisoned with that jibberish early on...when the roles are respected and responsibilities defi ed at the early stages in a career that rhetoric ceases. When I hear oh, you are an officer I respond with oh you are THAT NCO! The rest are different...yea NCOs are officers without a congressional appointment and legal ramifications...officers have the legal authority for a unit...NCO or private Smith screws up, the OIC gets hammered and not the NCO...It is in fact the NCOs charge to not only lead the day to day actions of the unit but also train and mentor the young officers in what is best for their men and rely on them to get it for them. A good NCO wouldn't be making those comments, a good NCO would be bringing them alongside and saying we can lead this unit together.