Why is it that Civilian Soldiers/Military believe their rank in service is relevant to what position they hold in civilian jobs?

SPC(P) Alexandra Hinds — Fri, 25 Mar 2016 16:22:47 -0400

Response by SPC(P) Alexandra Hinds made Mar 25 at 2016 4:24 PM

SPC(P) Alexandra Hinds — Fri, 25 Mar 2016 16:24:53 -0400

The reason I ask this is due to the fact that I am in a Security Position with National Guard Soldiers who are E-5s or lower. The two E-5s believe they have some type of rank to hold above not only my, but the other workers heads. And yet, they started right when I did and have absolutely NO rank in the position as of right now.
It is very aggravating and annoying at times for them to think that just because they are Sergeants, they have power in the Civilian aspect.

Response by SFC Randy Purham made Mar 25 at 2016 4:54 PM

SFC Randy Purham — Fri, 25 Mar 2016 16:54:07 -0400

SPC Bassett, that is a great question. It holds relevance because, depending on the rank it determines or gives a general idea to the employer what level of management experience, responsibility, maturity, and leading capacity one can offer or bring to their respective employment field. It also holds a little weight in determining the kind of stewardship they can bring to the job in terms of future recruiting, marketing, and leadership endeavors. Hope that answers your question.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Mar 25 at 2016 6:21 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Fri, 25 Mar 2016 18:21:08 -0400

You get a different skill set the further you go up the totem pole. There is a good chance there is something amiss with me if I left as a MAJ and ended up as a sardine canner.

Response by SPC Corbin Sayi made Mar 25 at 2016 6:41 PM

SPC Corbin Sayi — Fri, 25 Mar 2016 18:41:09 -0400

I worked for Paragon (federal security contractors) where there's a great mix of LT's, Sergeants, and Specialists. My wife's a Sergeant, so I understand where you are coming from probably more than I'd like to.

New sergeants (E5's) are typically more than happy to pull rank, because it's a new thing to them. It's only after, when they learn that rank is not applicable outside of their scope of duty, that they start to wise up and use it sparingly. Especially in the National Guard, where it's seldom ever used appropriately.

The only way to handle this in the civilian sector is respectfully. Although they do not have military authority over you in your civilian sector, telling them to 'fuck off' may be tempting, but it's not a good idea.

If I were you, memorize your post orders, conduct your job by the book and leave no room for their complaints. Be proactive in trying to outrank them in the civilian side, because that's what matters more. The irony of someone you lead who outranks you in the military is worth the effort.

In reality, it doesn't matter what company you work for, or if your co-workers are military or mere civilians. You will always bump into certain individuals who think that they are better than you; because they have a degree, because they have a higher vocabulary, because they make more money, because they have more muscle, because they have more rank-- it doesn't matter. It's all in the mind.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Mar 25 at 2016 7:13 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Fri, 25 Mar 2016 19:13:58 -0400

I was a little confused about SPC Bassett's question even after reading her additional information. There are several cases in my experience where a military person (NCO or O) can supervise government civilians or contractors. First, if they are the person in charge of an office, department, or functional area to which a government civilian is assigned, then they may have supervisory responsibility and authority. The civilian employee should know exactly who is their supervisor and their supervisor's supervisor. Second, if the military person is a contracting officer or the contracting officer's technical representative, he/she may be allowed to exercise some routine control over contract employee activites; however (this is a major point), the contract employee's corporate supervisor (team leader, project manager, etc.) normally directs day-to-day work and is ultimately responsible for their performance. If a civilian or contract employee is having a problem with a military member who is not their supervisor, he or she should talk with their real supervisor about the situation. Normally this can be resolved among the NCOs or Os when everybody understands who is responsible for whom.

Looknig at this another way, some employees are hired into corporations because of their expertise and experience which may be associated with their past military rank. I had a business associate once who had a hard time getting a management position because she had retired from active duty as an E-6. She was looked on as a "technician" by many of the corporate managers, all of whom were retired officers. After retiring she had earned her bachelors and masters degrees and some technical certifications. She finally moved into a management position when she went to work for a company that did almost no DoD work and most of the managers were not veterans.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Mar 25 at 2016 7:16 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Fri, 25 Mar 2016 19:16:22 -0400

There is no alignment between Military rank and Civilian duties. If someone is a Tech in a Guard/Reserve unit and they espouse rank during the week (as a civilian), they are wrong. If they are senior in grade and assert their rank while in other duties it is an "Ethical Dilemma" on their part.

Response by 1LT A. Uribe made Mar 25 at 2016 7:22 PM

1LT A. Uribe — Fri, 25 Mar 2016 19:22:12 -0400

I'm the 2nd highest ranking in my job and it's all the junior NCOs that think they deserve more.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Mar 25 at 2016 8:00 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Fri, 25 Mar 2016 20:00:26 -0400

Never thought of it but when I went reserve both my civilian grade and military rank pretty much went in parallel. Started out as a GS-12 on through GS-15 (Capped 14) equivalent and wound up retiring as an O-6. Looking at our military organization, the job, span of control, etc. were similar in the O-4/5 range. So there's an official crosswalk chart for officers/GS so I guess they can figure out who sits where for a dinner that won't happen. Interesting thing is I wound up mentoring a number of MILs in my civilian role because I wasn't their military chain, hence they felt more comfortable. I did have a problem with reservists who wanted to wear their military rank at work. Some did feel they were cheated out of civilian promotions. I just focused on doing a good job regardless of what I was wearing and it appears the rest took care of itself.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2016 2:33 AM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Mar 2016 02:33:21 -0400

I don't know why. But I did hear about an Admiral who became a greeter at a Wal-Mart. That could have been a joke and someone was pulling my leg, though!!!

Response by SFC Louis Willhauck, MSM, JSCM, and ARCOM made Mar 26 at 2016 9:46 AM

SFC Louis Willhauck, MSM, JSCM, and ARCOM — Sat, 26 Mar 2016 09:46:42 -0400

Some sort of distorted "Alpha Syndrome" maybe? In every place I have ever worked in the civilian sector there were precious few veterans to start with, and those of us who were rarely spoke of our military exploits, let alone going around flaunting our prior ranks. There just was no call for that sort of thing. Sounds to me like more of a true maturity issue than anything else.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2016 2:10 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Mar 2016 02:10:22 -0400

People have a tendency to form bias based on a grade or position. However in my unit I find the opposite is also true. Some of my soldiers E4 types sit in higher positions that even myself is striving for, and the E5+ often live as a student or even unemployed. I suppose it is important to understand your success is proportionate to the amount of effort you put into each aspect of your life.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2016 10:04 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Mar 2016 10:04:23 -0400

Technicians may be required to use their rank to network due to their dual-hatted position, but they should not use it to gain pleasure, profit or personal safety as this is against the NCO Creed. Also, their civilian position should be respected just as any rank would be in the military uniform.

Response by PFC Donnie Harold Harris made Mar 28 at 2016 11:23 AM

PFC Donnie Harold Harris — Mon, 28 Mar 2016 11:23:38 -0400

This is disturbing.

Response by SSG Brad Kachurka made Mar 28 at 2016 11:23 AM

SSG Brad Kachurka — Mon, 28 Mar 2016 11:23:44 -0400

It dependss on the job. I've seen military officers who were degreed engineers who did nothing related to their field get circles run around them by nco/technicians and specialists in the field of electronics and petroleum. Biggest thing i unlearned is that in the civilian world is to quit worrying about rank, chain of command and team. Organizations are going to a flat model with much less level of heirarchy and much more accountability at the individual level. Leadership isnt emphasized, accountability and results are what matters.

Response by 1SG Jack Crutcher made Mar 28 at 2016 9:05 PM

1SG Jack Crutcher — Mon, 28 Mar 2016 21:05:00 -0400

Sometimes it is really hard for some to make the transition back to civilian life.

Response by SPC Stephen Gerard made Mar 29 at 2016 1:37 AM

SPC Stephen Gerard — Tue, 29 Mar 2016 01:37:54 -0400

They do?

Response by SP5 Hank Vandenburgh PhD made Mar 29 at 2016 2:09 AM

SP5 Hank Vandenburgh PhD — Tue, 29 Mar 2016 02:09:57 -0400

I was an E-5 (Chemical Corps,) then later became a GS-4 as a VA Psychiatric Technician, completely unrelated. Once licensed, I could have become a GS-6, but I went to work for a state hospital, instead. Twenty years later, I finally had a PhD, and started teaching full time.

Response by Cpl Gerard Babin made Mar 29 at 2016 8:52 AM

Cpl Gerard Babin — Tue, 29 Mar 2016 08:52:50 -0400

It's a matter of Pride son. We are what we were but hopefully better. Rank on the outside may not have privilege but it does carry a load of earned respect. Most of us hold ourselves to the code we lived by in uniform mainly because civilians do not understand words like duty and honor.
Im 50, a Deck foreman on the LCS project in Marinette, WI. The Naval officers here address me by my rank as I do them and military customs and courtesies are a part of my crews training. The folks we build for deserve that respect and I make sure they get it. Not an "Old Man thing" its a MARINE thing.

Response by PO2 Steven Williams made Mar 29 at 2016 9:58 AM

PO2 Steven Williams — Tue, 29 Mar 2016 09:58:47 -0400

I rarely respond to these post but this is a topic I have something important to share. Military rank does not directly reflect your civilian life and success therein. I was in the Navy and achieved the rank of E-5 in 3 years. Had I reenlisted I would have received E-6 and recruiting duty. I did not reenlist as the military was not something I wanted to do with m life. I used my GI Bill and earned my Bachelors in Computer Science and Math after exiting the Navy at 23. I then went on to get my Masters of Business while I was working in a civilian job. I have served as a Director of Vice President for the past 15 years in various roles and have had a Captain in the Reserves report to me. What you do is up to you and your previous jobs including the military have no bearing on what you can achieve in life. What you do to succeed is really up to you and your past experience is but a step to where you want to go!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2016 10:10 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Mar 2016 10:10:46 -0400

I have noticed quite a bit of generalization on this website with the chats. Not all military feel this way. If you decide to work for the VA for example they review experience of course especially in the Behavioral Health Arena. There are just some jobs that cannot be given to those without the proper experience that is life.

Response by MAJ Derrick J. made Mar 29 at 2016 11:52 AM

MAJ Derrick J. — Tue, 29 Mar 2016 11:52:34 -0400

It's simple really - military training is better than most civilian training and it's an accomplishment to be in the US Armed Forces anyway.

.47% of American serve so it's definitely worth something personally and in civilian work.

Response by CW3 Susan Burkholder made Mar 29 at 2016 12:28 PM

CW3 Susan Burkholder — Tue, 29 Mar 2016 12:28:38 -0400

Are you asking about federal civilian jobs? Which in my opinion are not true civilian employment. Most Fed Technician jobs do align with the military in National Guard positions. Most times the position description in the job requires a minimum rank in the guard. It you are truly under title 5 and happen to be working with another title 5 who happens to be in the guard also, then rank would not matter and they are probably just trying to wield power they mistakenly believe they have.

Response by MSG Jan Glock made Mar 29 at 2016 12:46 PM

MSG Jan Glock — Tue, 29 Mar 2016 12:46:03 -0400

I once knew a PV2 (E-2) MP, who had to arrest an officer on Fort Bragg for DUI back in the 80's. He got the "Do you know who I am...?" speech, to which he replied "Unfortunately Sir, you have your rank confused with my authority..." My friend had been a civilian police officer for years before joining the Army!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2016 6:45 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Mar 2016 18:45:01 -0400

It's about demonstrating experience and maturity. When a civilian employer looks at your military experience, they are evaluating you on many more levels than one. If the person making your employment decision is former military, your rank and the amount of time you served may be an indicator of what kind of person your are. Slow rank may equal someone that is not eager to learn, work hard, or overcome obstacles. A person who makes rank quickly may be just the opposite. Ultimately it is up to you and what you bring to the work force. Education may not be as important in some jobs as experience. Your past experience in the military may not relate well to your civilian job so that may be lost during the evaluation. Knowing what to do and doing it so that you rise to the top of your field always gets noticed.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2016 7:53 PM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Mar 2016 19:53:31 -0400

There is no correlation what so ever from an employment perspective. The experience in the resume may help with achieving supervisory or advanced technical positions, but most hiring mangers or companies could give a hoot about your military rank. But most people will give you more respect because of your service.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2016 8:36 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Mar 2016 20:36:35 -0400

perhaps whilst enlisted, like I was, I was a specialist in the army, but at THE SAME TIME, a civilian RN, well while working on the weekend, at a local hospital, I was the charge nurse, and my 2 lpn's? My platoon sgt and squad leader...E7 and E6 (p)...they loved 'breaking me in during the day, but AFTER I was the charge nurse and they weren't over ME? Well it seemed the 'smoking' stopped after that...and NO, I did NOT mete out any 'revenge' while they were MY subordinates....I treated THEM like I wanted to be treated...must have stuck...

Response by SSG William Jackson made Mar 29 at 2016 9:26 PM

SSG William Jackson — Tue, 29 Mar 2016 21:26:19 -0400

Great question, the answer is simple when transitioning to some jobs mostly government jobs. You military rank is very important to what pay grade you will start at. It is the same way that using your military ATTARS transcript will advance you most universities allowing you to receive credit for university courses. Many police and fire departments give credit and extra points for military service.

Response by SPC Jerry Corwin made Mar 29 at 2016 10:20 PM

SPC Jerry Corwin — Tue, 29 Mar 2016 22:20:02 -0400

It is no good No one ever asked what my rank was the 40 years i work Well a vet would

Response by LTC John Mohor made Mar 29 at 2016 11:42 PM

LTC John Mohor — Tue, 29 Mar 2016 23:42:13 -0400

The sooner a former service member learns they have to earn their stripes every day the better off they'll be in the long run. After my initial service when I was rifted off active duty. I remember the only decent paying job I could get to support my wife and i was working in a chicken plant as a supervisor trainee. I took a big bite of humble pie and always tried to let my actions speak loader that words. So far it's held me in good stead to this day. Some good advice was discussed through all these posts hope it helps! Keep up the good work SPC(P) Bassett

Response by MSG Mark Million made Mar 30 at 2016 10:16 AM

MSG Mark Million — Wed, 30 Mar 2016 10:16:37 -0400

While that correlation is not consistent, the normsl answer in my opinion would be experience. Most NCO's are used to being in charge and are comfortable giving direction, also they will often be a few years older and in many cases have worked longer. Among junior soldiers, on average they are younger with less experience, and are less used to being in charge. While these points are often true, there are enough exceptions to this that it is by no means the norm. On the civilian side, I believe older more experienced workers often act like NCOs because that is a natural byproduct of experience in most cases.

Response by LTC John Regan made Mar 30 at 2016 11:50 AM

LTC John Regan — Wed, 30 Mar 2016 11:50:50 -0400

Just for some background, SPC Basset, companies use the former rank and experience of personnel as a "force multiplier" for securing contracts, as such the rank you separated from the service (in general) determines the kinds of jobs you will qualify for afterward. That said I know from personal experience that we have a number of retired field grades and senior NCOs who never tire of reminding you about their former rank and even keep it on their signature blocks. It's one of life's irritations that you learn to put up with. My vote is to forget about what you "used to be" and concentrate on what you are supposed to be doing.

Response by SSG Bill Cooke made Mar 30 at 2016 2:43 PM

SSG Bill Cooke — Wed, 30 Mar 2016 14:43:51 -0400

Because sometimes it does. MPs make good police in the civilian world. Communicators make excellent computer techs if properly retained in that area. Military should not go to waste. Best bet hire a vet is still a good idea. Besides the Honorable discharge says that hire can do whatever the job entails as long as there is training on going.

Response by PO1 Scott Cottrell made Mar 30 at 2016 4:58 PM

PO1 Scott Cottrell — Wed, 30 Mar 2016 16:58:45 -0400

Don't really see it out here on this base. There are very few Active Duty here, there are a lot of Retired and Veterans working as contractors, but rank is rarely brought up. Come to think of it, I think I know only a few peoples retired rank.

Response by SFC J Fullerton made Mar 30 at 2016 5:05 PM

SFC J Fullerton — Wed, 30 Mar 2016 17:05:19 -0400

Maybe my spin on this is different than the intent behind the question. I don't think it is so much the rank itself, it is the duties and responsibilities associated with the positions held concurrent with that rank, that should be relevant to positions in the civilian sector. It can be a challenge for newly separated/retired active military to get hired to a civilian position that is commensurate to the level they had with their rank/position in the military. I am speaking more of the private sector, not GS jobs. You have earned your experience and the rank/position that goes with it, it is only fitting to hold higher expectations for yourself after the military and not settle for entry level jobs if you are capable and qualified for much more than that. My take is based on Active duty transitioning to corporate America.

Response by CPT Chris Newport made Mar 30 at 2016 5:59 PM

CPT Chris Newport — Wed, 30 Mar 2016 17:59:22 -0400

It isn't. I went from being a 1Lt. to changing my background on employment applications to being less than I was just to get a job, any job. Check the market before you leave the Service. I didn't and paid for it.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2016 8:11 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 31 Mar 2016 20:11:43 -0400

Because the recruiters sold them on the concept that the skills they learned in the military and income they received is transferable to the civilian employment sector. It isn't until this is proven false that people understand that what they accomplished in the military, their skills, their rank and their experiences are less relevant in finding and keeping employment than relationships with others, civilian recognized credentials, education and a good work ethic.

Response by LTC Robert Hynes made Apr 2 at 2016 2:12 PM

LTC Robert Hynes — Sat, 02 Apr 2016 14:12:44 -0400

Because they mistakenly believe that their rank translates directly into a civilian job. Unless you also have education, qualifications, or experience in that job, your rank means nothing. A friend of mine retired and thanks to his degree and engineer license worked as the director of construction for a big company. His former battalion commander worked 2 levels beneath him and thought he could say or do what he wanted because the director was one of his former lieutenants. My friend sent a subordinate manager (he didn't even go himself) to tell him to quit the pushback and get with the program or he would be out of work.

Response by Sgt Neil Foster made Apr 3 at 2016 4:46 PM

Sgt Neil Foster — Sun, 03 Apr 2016 16:46:22 -0400

I'm a former USAF Sergeant. I shared an office with a retired USN Master Chief for a while. He had the WORST case of "chief syndrome" I ever saw. He would always say "Go do this". I would say "Bill, we are not in the Navy, I'm not an able-bodied seaman.. GO DO IT YOURSELF".

Response by LTC John Regan made Jun 2 at 2016 4:34 PM

LTC John Regan — Thu, 02 Jun 2016 16:34:01 -0400

In reference to that particular question - it is basically an ego thing. Some folks just can't let go. But there is one thing to keep in mind about the world of defense contracting. Your resume is used to secure new business contracts. Your company uses these former ranks to demonstrate the kind of responsible people they have lined up to do the job.

Response by PO1 Aaron Baltosser made Mar 15 at 2017 11:28 AM

PO1 Aaron Baltosser — Wed, 15 Mar 2017 11:28:08 -0400

It may have some bearing on their civilian job. Were they in a position of leadership at that rank? What level of organizational responsibility came with the rank they achieved? As a 1st Class Petty Officer I have been in charge of running a health records room that supported 5 states worth of patients, and 70,000 records. I would think information like that as part of the rank I had been promoted to would be useful to a civilian employer.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2018 9:47 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 May 2018 21:47:17 -0400

I agree with CSM, however I take it a step further. I have had GS5, 7, n 11’, work indirectly or directly for me, and most were Ofcrs. I even had a Full COL who was a GS11. He was a reservist n not a member in my command, as were 3 others. As a SGM, that answered to 3 1 Star, 2 2Star, a 3 Star GO and a 4 Star Admiral, I gave them the respect due, but as their Sr Advisor or Supvr I was able to execute my duties n maintain a decorum of communication that was respectful of their background yet authoritive within the scope of my responsibilities of those I represented. Don’t get me wrong, there’s a proper time and place to forget decorum, n protocol, but in private to let a subordinate have it between the eyes with a 2x4 to get their attention and remind them “I may not out rank you, but the authority I represent does, and I speak for them.” That always made them stop and think. All I did was give them options and made it perfectly clear the choice was theirs as so were the consequences. Usually never had this conversation a second time.. Respectfully, tactfully, firmly and authoritatively, you let them know of their position, n that they are civilians, and their military rank or position was checked at the door.

Response by MAJ Doug Mattox made May 27 at 2018 12:59 PM

MAJ Doug Mattox — Sun, 27 May 2018 12:59:00 -0400

In the Guard and Reserves it can present an interesting dilemma. I had a spec 4 who was an architect by trade. Made a hefty 6 figure salary. He did the guard out of dedication and said he did not have the time to become an Officer. Though I did not work for him in civilian life, it was a little intimidating at times.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2019 10:31 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 10:31:05 -0400

years ago in the AL ARNG, we had an E4 that owned his own business. dude was just in the guard because he was a patriot and felt it was part of his civic duty to serve. Our BN CO was actually an employee at the company this E4 owned.

Response by SSgt James Harper made Mar 19 at 2019 11:19 AM

SSgt James Harper — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 11:19:23 -0400

I got out of the AF after 8 years as an E5. I had PME1 and 2. Those classes were by far the most important to my civilian career. I learned to manage, supervise and train people. Then went out and practiced those ideas on the flight line. Those skills I developed gave me a great advantage over civilian peers. I learned how to lead. I am a manager. That is my career path. There were times that there were people I worked with and for, that only had a 4 year degree in foolishness. Like french lit, or a field that had nothing to do with managing people or the product lines we carried. No management experience. But they would be thrust into a position of authority that they had absolutely no training or experience in. They got the job because they had ANY 4 year degree. Many would turn into little tyrants. They never lasted long. I went on to retiring from my own small biz. The AF trains everybody to supervise, train, manage and most of all lead people. Management of people, resources, time, etc is what we do as senior NCO's when we get there. And guess what? In civilian life it is the same. Those that master those skills can flourish. Because the successful path for nearly all careers is upper management/ownership. Is it not? It wasn't about my rank. It is about my training, experience and my ability to apply those skills effectively.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2019 1:23 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 13:23:58 -0400

I had a E-6 team leader (that’s the squad leader in a recon unit, because scouts like to be different) in the national Guard who was a “guard bum” over 40 years old, was a former “semi professional skateboarder”, lived in his moms basement, and made drinks at Starbucks. Now is an instructor at ranger school.

This is a really big guard problem, I’d say 70% of my NCOs are 30+ unemployed, live in their parents basement, or are a failing small business owner.

Response by MAJ Seth Goldstein made Mar 19 at 2019 6:42 PM

MAJ Seth Goldstein — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 18:42:22 -0400

Don’t get me started. I can’t even tell you how many reserve SGM’s I met in my career who has the responsibility of a teenager in their civilian job.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2019 7:43 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 19:43:08 -0400

Another reason: There are more or less directly relevant rank to GS equivalencies used as guidelines by GS hiring panels. As a SFC with 12 years of experience in the specific occupational field and 4 years of college I was deemed "qualified" enough to serve for a year in a GS-9 position rating 17 GS employees. A GS-9 is considered roughly equivalent to a 1LT. This was in addition to my regular NCOIC duties.

Response by CPL Clyde Willis made Mar 19 at 2019 7:51 PM

CPL Clyde Willis — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 19:51:10 -0400

If this is strictly about government positions I really dont have any constructive input. But I do have input for the regular civilian world.

My time in the army was relatively short, and I've been out twice as long as I was in. During that time I've worked my way up in my chosen career the old fashion way - hard work and grit. I am always happy to hire veterans, especially retirees. But I do not have the patience to deal with vets who have a chip on their shoulder - and there are many. Recently I fired a retired Air Force E7 because he somehow felt he out ranked me. While it is true that the work ethic, discipline, and leadership abilities learned over the course of a military career are great assets, one does not start out on top in a civilian career after the military. While he was in earning rank, I was out here learning this trade. Skills learned in the service can take one very far in the civilian world, but military rank does NOT have its privileges in the civilian workforce.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2019 7:31 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Mar 2019 07:31:29 -0400

If the individual is a tech and required to wear a uniform while performing in the capacity of a tech then the individual must behave in accordance with their rank. That is precisely the reason the number of mil tech positions should be limited

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2019 11:28 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Mar 2019 11:28:33 -0400

Lots of very senior officers who is e served well over 30 years and planned we'll financially choose mundane and low stress jobs after retirement.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2019 12:13 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Mar 2019 12:13:04 -0400

There's an old saying in the mess hall."you're only as good as the last meal you made". It applies in the civilian sector. You can show up with a chest full of awards and rank. But they want to see what you can bring to the table. And you have to bring it every day.

Response by Sgt Thomas Blair Jr. made Mar 21 at 2019 12:33 AM

Sgt Thomas Blair Jr. — Thu, 21 Mar 2019 00:33:49 -0400

IMO, at the heart of the issue about the military culture, is that it is a significantly insular subset of society. Well grounded types understand and accept this, and others can't, don't, or won't. Subsequently, there is a culture shock particularly with longtime service people who've minimally interacted in some capacity with the "outside" world during their service. Therefore it is a mental shock to that the "drop and give me 25 mentality" that doesn't scare or intimidate people in the civilian world. None of this is to say the fictional GySgt. Hartman's deameanor is evil, but in real life outside the military you have to get in where you fit in, or in another metaphorical sense when in Rome you have to be aware of doing as the Roman's do. This question posed brought back memories of a thought provoking discussion I was a part of while in the Air Force attending the 21st Air Force NCO Leadership School in 1975. The instructor then TSgt. Tolfa generically addressed this topic about being able to adapt to post military life at some point, and how to do it successfully. My hat is off to TSgt. Tolfa for initiating such a prescient discussion 43 years ago. Those who can't or won't make a concious decision to adapt to post military life not uncommonly, don't live very long after separation - or retirement - from military service. I am grateful for having had a military experience, and it favorably altered the trajectory of my life. With all that's said here, the bottom line is the outcome of the transition from military to civilian life is all up to the individual and how they choose to approach it.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2019 9:00 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 Mar 2019 09:00:38 -0400

That’s why you go Signal.

Response by LT Peter Hill made Mar 21 at 2019 10:02 AM

LT Peter Hill — Thu, 21 Mar 2019 10:02:24 -0400

There are two realities-that in government (especially DoD) and the private sector. Having worked both I will say military rank plays a bigger role in expectations and placement in govt. In one application that was advertised GS-12/13/14, I sought to establish my initial placement at 13, or maybe 14, as I believed I was well qualified per the terms of the position description. I was summarily told they would NEVER place a former O-3 above GS-12. They were unflinching on this even though I had separated 16 years prior and was earning in the O-6 range in the private sector. Military transitioning to private sector should not undersell themselves. Your ingrained discipline, work ethic and leadership are head and shoulders above those who never served.

Response by SPC Gary Mobbs made Mar 21 at 2019 2:28 PM

SPC Gary Mobbs — Thu, 21 Mar 2019 14:28:00 -0400

Being a GS employee for the Air Force it seems that retired pilots are bad about this as well. They go as far as signing emails with their old call signs.

Response by Cpl Rafael Martinez made Mar 21 at 2019 5:46 PM

Cpl Rafael Martinez — Thu, 21 Mar 2019 17:46:35 -0400

If I understand your question correctly you are speaking military and civilian ranks in government service, not necessarily in the private sector. It'll depend on of it's a civilian agency or military command. I served in the Cities for for years and got my E4 on the way out. I later went federal law enforcement and ultimately ended up as a GS-13 1811 Special Agent writhing drug smuggling and trafficking cases. We had National Guard personnel assigned to our group as intel and support personnel with the highest rank being a Captain. As I understand it a GS-13 is the equivalent of a LtCol and that was accurate based on my experiences. I collected and disseminated intelligence, requisitioned specialised equipment, vehicles and aircraft for ISR and transport, worked human intelligence assets, sometimes worked light undercover, conducted on the ground surveillance in the roughest neighborhoods, developed operational leads, developed assault plans, made assault team assignments, executed the plan, interrogated captured subjects, developed more leads, and started tyre cycle again before ever going to court. I think based on the complexity of the job the comparison of O5 to GS13 is adequate. But it'll depend on career field.

Response by Cpl Ed Hines made Mar 21 at 2019 7:49 PM

Cpl Ed Hines — Thu, 21 Mar 2019 19:49:19 -0400

A much more accurate description would be to say that unless you are a Flag Officer, you are pretty much doomed.

Response by CPO Alonzo Holley made Mar 21 at 2019 7:50 PM

CPO Alonzo Holley — Thu, 21 Mar 2019 19:50:41 -0400

That is up to the employer to decide.I was on my first job Two months and the personnel manager offered me a foreman job.I asked why and he said you are already supervising the group and they don’t even know it. If we ran into a problem I would say why don’t we try this or that not even realizing I was leading anyone and no I never felt like I deserved anything special just because I served. The Supervisor promoted me and one guy didn’t like it.No one else seemed to care.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2019 8:12 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 Mar 2019 20:12:31 -0400

If you mean, why do civilians believe their military rank has any relevance to their civilian job. It's difficult to tell why they believe one has anything to do with the other. I've met many retired military working for DoD or DA as civilians, and with very few exceptions, they didn't act as if their military rank carried over. I've seen LTCs and SFCs as GS-12/13 supervisors, and you wouldn't know their military rank unless you knew them personally, or had some "I love me" stuff displayed.
Those that did believe their military rank meant something in their civilian position struck me as being asinine and weren't liked or respected much by their coworkers.
When I retired, my rank qualified me for maybe GS-5/7 positions, but my master's degree qualified me for GS-11/12 positions. After 2 years in the civilian sector, I qualified for, and accepted a GS-13/14 position. My rank had nothing to do with my civilian job, it was education and experience that qualified me.

Response by MSG Scott McBride made Mar 22 at 2019 9:02 AM

MSG Scott McBride — Fri, 22 Mar 2019 09:02:38 -0400

You believe that correlation between Mil/Civ all you want. Sorry sport. You're in a different world now. Try to keep that in mind. As a retired Sr. NonComm, I am happy to come to work, do my job, and go home without a worry in the world.

Response by SGT Patrick Adamek made Mar 22 at 2019 9:21 AM

SGT Patrick Adamek — Fri, 22 Mar 2019 09:21:07 -0400

I worked in a retail store after I retired from a utility. We had a guy known as the Colonel , a retired Marine Full Bird. And another guy we called top. I had to tell both those guys , you’re not in command here , we are co-workers. They were both great guys and good workers however.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2019 10:11 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Mar 2019 10:11:35 -0400

Prior to 911, I was a CPT in the Army Reserve who worked a blue collar job at a company in a warehouse. I occasionally was called on to help with testing equipment, and my 2 supervisors were former E6 and E7. I always had a blast with them. I'd go back to that job in a heartbeat.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2019 10:13 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Mar 2019 10:13:36 -0400

Here’s the deal. Once you leave active duty you are no longer active duty. Either you successfully completed your contract, retired, forced out, or you got kicked out. I get sick and tired of seeing former service members complaining because “they did it differently in the military.” As I said before you are no longer in the military, stop trying to act like it. You are now a civilian, and if you want to be successful you have to mold to the standards of “their” world. Now, if you work for a DOD contractor or some military start up then rank still may be relevant. However, most jobs don’t give a rats ass if you were an E-5 or an O-5.

Response by SSG Cody Brouchoud made Mar 22 at 2019 2:58 PM

SSG Cody Brouchoud — Fri, 22 Mar 2019 14:58:44 -0400

Look at it this way. If you start out as a production worker at a factory and make it to plant manager. And you look for another job. Your not gonna want to take a job as a production worker again. Your gonna want something semi equivilent

Response by SGT Dusty Roth made Mar 22 at 2019 6:41 PM

SGT Dusty Roth — Fri, 22 Mar 2019 18:41:11 -0400

I knew an Army Reserve company commander (Cpt) who was the subordinate of one of his Staff Sergeants in their civilian occupations.
They both remained professional at all times and were a highly functioning team both in and out of uniform.

Response by SSG Ralph Watkins made Mar 22 at 2019 7:42 PM

SSG Ralph Watkins — Fri, 22 Mar 2019 19:42:26 -0400

It still comes down to the persons attitude & how they adjust to the real world. Being a senior officer does allow people to step over into senior management positions. However, that may not always be a good thing. I used to be a VA nurse. Some of our top administrators were the type that thought the world revolved around them. When employees pointed how how bad they were, they would hear on how the person was a major or colonel & that they deserved respect. Then you run into someone who knew them in the military & you found out they were the same way there. We've all have had commanders or senior officers who were all about making themselves look good & to hell with the peons. In many civilians jobs they don't last long but other jobs, they flourish until they screw up badly enough. In today's world, yelling at civilian slugs you are in charge will get you fired. In the civilian world, lazy workers are tolerated, not in the military.

Response by SPC Fortunato Maycotte Felkel made Mar 22 at 2019 8:22 PM

SPC Fortunato Maycotte Felkel — Fri, 22 Mar 2019 20:22:16 -0400

Well rank many times goes parallel to experience, so I’ve seen recruiters think higher ranks have more experience and they have proven they can succeed when being promoted.

Response by SFC Richard Aydelotte made Mar 23 at 2019 9:44 AM

SFC Richard Aydelotte — Sat, 23 Mar 2019 09:44:22 -0400

in the nothing to do with the military civilian world, where most pepole have no inking of how the military is structured, what grade or rank you were is irrelevant. So unless someone on your interview panel is prior military, clean up the resume, explain how many you evaluated, what accomplishments you made, and make sure someone eith no military background understands it. In the cilivan world rank means nothing.

Response by Jason Granholm made Mar 23 at 2019 10:52 AM

Jason Granholm — Sat, 23 Mar 2019 10:52:50 -0400

The error in that thinking can be highlighted by this example: Employer: Why should you be hired as the Executive Chef of our 4 star restaurant? Veteran: I have 20 years experience in the Army as an E7 SFC. In this position I was..." Do you really think that qualifies them as an executive chef?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2019 1:41 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 23 Mar 2019 13:41:38 -0400

This only holds true in limited licensed professional fields. If you were highest ranking surgeon, therapist, registered nurse you can parlay that leadership role into great admin job. A former DCNS (deputy commander for nursing services) could have easily landed a boss job. Instead he retired and is in pursuit of a music degree to be jazz pianist. A retired ophthalmologist COL is a volunteer CPR teacher

Response by SSG Chris Hall made Mar 23 at 2019 4:58 PM

SSG Chris Hall — Sat, 23 Mar 2019 16:58:54 -0400

The only person that would ask that kind of question is someone that had no rank or responsibility in the military. It’s s bit baffling you’d even ask something so obvious.

Response by GySgt David Barber made Mar 23 at 2019 5:45 PM

GySgt David Barber — Sat, 23 Mar 2019 17:45:00 -0400

I worked for a defense contractor in USN ship maintenance and I will assure you there was a steady stream of Naval officers taking plum jobs there after retirement. Sometimes I got the idea winning the contract was contingent upon this company hiring a retiring officer to manage the contract.

Response by SCPO Frank Carson made Mar 23 at 2019 8:18 PM

SCPO Frank Carson — Sat, 23 Mar 2019 20:18:57 -0400

Senior Chief is a Vice President at an 8 billion medical device company. What is your problem?

Response by SGT Steve Knight made Mar 23 at 2019 8:49 PM

SGT Steve Knight — Sat, 23 Mar 2019 20:49:19 -0400

A few years back, I worked as a Director in a very large company. The XO (Major) of my ARNG Battalion was one of my direct reports as a civilian. As an E5, that made for some really interesting drill weekends.

Response by SPC Jimmy Bussey made Mar 23 at 2019 10:22 PM

SPC Jimmy Bussey — Sat, 23 Mar 2019 22:22:06 -0400

Because it often does. I have worked in the military industrial complex for over 40 years and have seen many soldiers transition into the Industry and job/rank/experience count.

Response by MSgt Eric Roseberry made Mar 24 at 2019 8:31 AM

MSgt Eric Roseberry — Sun, 24 Mar 2019 08:31:13 -0400

Previous experience plays a significant role in hiring. Education level is also a qualifier/disqulifier. Very frequently no degree means no interview and very few companies will hire anyone without a proven track record for a senior role.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2019 11:18 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 24 Mar 2019 11:18:06 -0400

I used to think they were worthless until SpaceX looked at my quals and offered me a six figure starting contract.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2019 2:13 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 24 Mar 2019 14:13:47 -0400

See doesnt matter. But giving respect to those i totally understand. But yes their civilians and they are treated as equally when they are.

Response by LCpl John Stanley made Mar 24 at 2019 6:52 PM

LCpl John Stanley — Sun, 24 Mar 2019 18:52:02 -0400

I was a lowly E-3 L/Cpl after 4 years in the Corps. When I got out, I went to college (under the G.I. Bill) and managed to get three degrees (2 B.S., and one M.S.) I worked for the federal government attaining GS-15 Division Director. I had a few ex-majors, and a couple of other officers work for me during my career. But the capstone was a Naval Academy graduate who had flown in 'Nam and left the service as an O-4. A great guy, but short on leadership skills.

Response by CW3 Joseph Lawrence made Mar 24 at 2019 7:30 PM

CW3 Joseph Lawrence — Sun, 24 Mar 2019 19:30:08 -0400

Unfortunately, there are times when your rank in the military becomes a burden instead of a blessing, especially when being recruited for a position. In some cases positions of increased rank in the military tend to receive comments like "I am afraid you are over qu8alified for this position." Which is essence means they don't want to pay you for your experience. I would say your experience in your specialty would hold far more importance than the rank that you attained.

Response by PO1 Michael Moe made Mar 25 at 2019 9:52 PM

PO1 Michael Moe — Mon, 25 Mar 2019 21:52:14 -0400

Because Admirals become VPs and enlisted go to work as senior technicians

Response by COL Stanley Zezotarski made Mar 25 at 2019 9:54 PM

COL Stanley Zezotarski — Mon, 25 Mar 2019 21:54:20 -0400

Having enlisted in the military at a late age, I had nearly 10 years civilian management experience at the time I entered basic trading. I had experience to compare those who completed boot camp and advanced individual training (AIT) with their counterparts in the civilian sector. Specialists, privates for that matter, have apply leadership, administrative, and supervisory skills that most high school and college grads only know in theory upon graduation. When I graduated from AIT, I remember thinking that if I were a civilian employer, I would give a veteran, National Guard, or Reservist the nod over an inexperienced college grad simply because I knew they have applied leadership skills . Thirty years of military service only reinforces my opinion.

Response by 1SG Patrick Sims made Mar 26 at 2019 1:39 AM

1SG Patrick Sims — Tue, 26 Mar 2019 01:39:51 -0400

It is a shock when you come to the realization you have start out at the bottom again.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2019 8:57 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 Mar 2019 08:57:06 -0400

In my experience, its how relevant one makes their overall skill sets to the job to their employer.The ladder will always be climbed from the ground up.
My current position in the civilian world actually holds more relevance to my MOS more so than my rank.

Response by CPL Steve Freeman made Apr 27 at 2019 1:35 PM

CPL Steve Freeman — Sat, 27 Apr 2019 13:35:43 -0400

There are ranks in civilian jobs? I musta not gotten that memo.

Response by SFC Robert Walton made May 2 at 2019 9:05 AM

SFC Robert Walton — Thu, 02 May 2019 09:05:32 -0400

Well the bottom line is it is not always what you read or hear that is the truth. I have been out over 20 years now and have retired from my civilian job and was glad to do so. The Civilians have this all figured out. I had several Jobs in civilian life Twice I heard conversations that I wasn't trying to over hear but just happened that way and they came out basically that Civilians will pretend they don't have an idea of what your worth is so they can Hire that kind of experience Cheap. It is about the Money. My last boss was former air force read all my paperwork still offered me the job at $1.00 less than my civilian counterparts. He told his assistant Production manager (this I over heard) always Offer Soldiers less they need the job so they will take less and work like two employs. Tons of things I could tell but you all get the Idea. JMTC

Response by LTC Ken Connolly made May 5 at 2019 10:10 PM

LTC Ken Connolly — Sun, 05 May 2019 22:10:48 -0400

Good question. Depends on the who is doing the hiring. I have advised numerous former military (and hired as many) on how to write a civilian resume. A former military person may understand the relevance of the grade to the job being applied for. However, as fewer people have military experience using rank as a sole experience indicator in not very relevant to many civilian firms. It is much better to described the job. Such as, As a Plt Sgt I was the second line manager to 30 individuals with responsibility of...., a payroll of, manged x lines of x no. of tracked vehicles valued at X dollars. In other words tell the story of what the job was and tie it into resource management, equipment management, skill sets used and managed, accomplishments - especially if it can be tied in revenue, cost avoidance and or improvements in performance, etc. And always follow-up after an interview with a written note of appreciation and use it to embellish on a point you may have felt wasn't too well addressed during the interview. In any case do not be too wordy.

Response by Cpl Geoff Smith made May 12 at 2019 2:18 PM

Cpl Geoff Smith — Sun, 12 May 2019 14:18:52 -0400

Usually NOT relevant to civilian jobs, but some feel it is something they earned and mistakenly asume civilians must comply.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2019 1:28 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 May 2019 13:28:06 -0400

That's because many, if not most, of them got that civilian job as a direct result of the rank, experience and training they acquired in the military. I know for a fact that is true in my case. I'm a govt contractor and in many cases I get chosen to be the one to go meet with the program manager (an army LTC) base solely on the fact that I am a MAJ in the Army reserves.

Response by Capt Al Parker made May 28 at 2019 10:20 PM

Capt Al Parker — Tue, 28 May 2019 22:20:35 -0400

Because they are power hungry. I worked in a Military Unit as a civilian, there was another civil servant who worked in the Department who was a Navy reserve Captain, he believed that he had the power of a Navy Captain even though he was only a GS-11. I changed my cubical name tag to read Capt. Allen Parker and in very small print I put ( USAF, Ret )I was a GS-13 at the time.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 12 at 2019 3:07 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Jun 2019 15:07:53 -0400

There’s differences in management skills between a Team leader, Squad Leader, Platoon Sergeant, 1SG and CSM.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 7 at 2019 9:09 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Jul 2019 09:09:44 -0400

it's not

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2019 5:26 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Aug 2019 17:26:25 -0400

Military rank isn't related to a civilian position.
However, I would expect a former military member to hold a civilian position at a similar, or higher, span of control, influence, supervision, and/or management.
Yes, that GS-12 former (INSERT RANK HERE) is just a GS-12. That CEO who was formerly a SPC, is still a CEO.

Response by CPT Larry Hudson made Dec 8 at 2019 5:25 PM

CPT Larry Hudson — Sun, 08 Dec 2019 17:25:53 -0500

Rank has nothing to do with civilian life however, MOS does.

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Dec 18 at 2019 7:18 PM

SSgt Boyd Herrst — Wed, 18 Dec 2019 19:18:56 -0500

I think it is a status thing with them they may figure higher in the food chain the further from changing bed pans they’ll be

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Feb 8 at 2021 9:26 AM

SFC Melvin Brandenburg — Mon, 08 Feb 2021 09:26:09 -0500

It depends upon the civilian position. Some jobs require strong organizational leadership competencies. A senior NCO or a field grade officer would definitely possess greater leadership aptitude than a new soldier. As a section leader I found my experience helped me manage my classroom and professional working groups. I was an effective member of my school's leadership team because of the leadership experience I gained in the military. As a food operations NCO when I was a chef before becoming a teacher, I performed better as an executive sous chef because I had experience as a dining facility manager.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Sep 24 at 2021 6:15 PM

SSG Edward Tilton — Fri, 24 Sep 2021 18:15:24 -0400

It is a major accomplishment. It gives me an idea of who they SHOULD be

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made Sep 24 at 2021 6:37 PM

Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen — Fri, 24 Sep 2021 18:37:43 -0400

It's just an indication of your level of responsibility in your previous work history.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Sep 24 at 2021 6:45 PM

SSG Edward Tilton — Fri, 24 Sep 2021 18:45:37 -0400

Other than Rallypoint I can't think of anywhere I use my rank. The fact that I am a retiree comes up and occaisionally my Law Enforcement expeirance are appropriate to the discussion.