Why is it that units fight the CBRN training/program so much?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 20:59:27 -0500

Why is it that units fight the CBRN training/program so much we as CBRN soldiers need to maintain our proficiency as well as ensure the unit is ready so why fight when you have someone trying to put together a program for the soldiers so much because you feel it's not important? Bottom line up front I feel if we as CBRN soldiers can and will/have to perform many of the other vast array of duty positions within the army then please stop giving us the fight when we are trying to strengthen ourselves by doing our training cause if you needed those soldiers to perform their actual job many of them at this present time would be clueless and we would have a greater problem and everyone would be saying why don't you know your job you got trained in it. Just venting my apologies everyone

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Dec 4 at 2013 9:22 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 21:22:40 -0500

You pretty much nailed it. I think the consensus in the Army is that the CBRN program is irrelevant. A task involving fighting a non existent threat...

Now, is that a smart thought process? Of course not. It's clearly an important subject, but oftentimes we don't realize how important something is until it's biting us in the butt... Let's hope it's not something we learn the hard way..

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2013 9:26 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 21:26:05 -0500

because it is useless LOL.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2013 9:53 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 21:53:03 -0500

Complacency stateside more than likely SSG Nelson and if you receive no support from the CMD Team, then the rest of the Soldiers will "buck" it too.

No need to apologize, its frustrating to everyone in a situation similar to yours.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2013 9:54 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 21:54:47 -0500

NBC No Body Cares....Until they do.

Nothing strikes fear in the hearts of war fighters than the thought of coughing up your own lungs because your mask is in the bottom of your duffle bag.

I learned more about NBC than I ever wanted to in my last job as the Assistant Product Manager for the NBCRV.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2013 10:31 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 22:31:05 -0500

True, as a prior 74D/54B SSG Nelson, bc I wasn't continually engaged with the job, I was tasked out to everything else and called back to do PATs testing, replace parts, and provide supplies PRN. To assist those few 74Ds I can only suggest that every STT they step up and provide all types of CBRN training, not just be infamous for the Gas chamber. Perhaps huddling them in and taking charge of their training and getting them as excited and motivated as you are will motivate them into generating/brainstorming better ways to provide CBRN training to the unit. Good luck Battle!

Response by CSM Mike Maynard made Dec 5 at 2013 7:11 AM

CSM Mike Maynard — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 07:11:13 -0500

I was one of those folks that fought CBRN training in my past units. Based on our mission set and the threat, CBRN was not relevant.

You only have so much time to train and we have to train on those critical tasks that matter based on the threat.

Now the good news - I am a full supporter of CBRN training at my unit now. We are in Okinawa and are tasked with knocking down some errant missiles coming from North Korea. Pretty sure if they are throwing stuff this way, they'll have chemicals on them.

So, based on the threat here, CBRN is very relevant and we devote quite a bit of time to it.

I think it just depends on where you're at and the threat you face as to how important CBRN training is.

Response by CPT Keith Steinhurst made Dec 5 at 2013 7:36 AM

CPT Keith Steinhurst — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 07:36:31 -0500

Well SSG, the answer is multifactorial . . . As the good MAJ posited in another post, NBC = Nobody Cares, until they do, that is, except for your 74A &Bs, and 54Bs (ahem, 74Ds). There are not many Chemical Officers from my yeargroup and OBC class (9-93) left on active duty, one at the School House, and one in Group. Ours is a small Corps, and for years have struggled to find a mission; when we were coming up we had only recently lost our offensive weapons and we still taught skills like Chemical and Nuclear targetting in OBC, for want of relevance we became environmental sceintists and engineers, now we are firefighters and emergency managers. Another fact is simply threat, or perceived lack thereof, until there is. In CONUS our training and response is constrained by CFR (29, 1910.120), not so downrange and outside the wire. As 'Dragon' soldiers we have an acute awareness because it is what we train on, it is what we are about, and we like our 'Retorts' - to get BN or BDE S3 to buy in, they have to trust you - that takes times and more importantly competence. Most LTs and SPCs have zeal but lack mileage and there is only one opportunity to make a first impression. By the time you have the experience and maturity to back up the 'intensity' you are a CPT / SSG and you are either echelons beyond reality at Corps or some other nominative assignment, and largely out of the fight until you are the '3' / BN, BDE NBC NCO, or better, a CM CC or 1SG. I digress . . . Keep up the good fight, keep your filters dry, and your promask near!

Response by SFC Josh Watson made Dec 5 at 2013 8:44 AM

SFC Josh Watson — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 08:44:41 -0500

I'm not sure that the units are fighting it (CBRN program). I think it may be more of a "lack of interest" issue. It seems to me that Commanders don't aknowledge the CBRN threat in the current theater of operations, and therefore doesn't need the same attention as other programs and duties. I have the same issue with two of my additional duties, Antiterrorism and OPSEC. Nobody seems to care until Division and Corps start talking about OIP inspections.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2013 4:42 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 16:42:26 -0500

Last time I had CBRN training was via power point, I mean common, we got nothing to train with unless you are on active duty. But Guard and Reserves got nothing besides pro masks. so what can you do with it ? Put in on and pretend you are in a Chemical Environment? its a joke and no soldier is going to take it seriously especially a young E-1 fresh out of basic. Even there all they do is throw a can of tear gas or whatever it is and what does that do, make you cry and cough.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2013 8:00 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 20:00:57 -0500

I would use all that however I cant train/ teach my soldiers in my reserve unit. I was told that if its not on "training schedule, we aint doing it" . When I was in the guard, that was a different story, there we could conduct hit pocket training all the time. so im just saying all this from my point of view and experience from the last 16yrs that I been in.

Response by CSM Mike Maynard made Dec 5 at 2013 10:44 PM

CSM Mike Maynard — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 22:44:04 -0500

SSG Langston - I'm authorized a 74D3O in my Bn, sounds like from your response, you are the Bn CBRN NCO and are executing from within that scope.

CBRN training is directly tied to METL and normally falls within the "Protection" METs/Articles.

Now, unit Cdr's do have latitude in determining which are the Key Collective Tasks that support the METL that the Bn Cdr has approved for their unit. If a unit does not have any Key Collective Tasks that fall within the CBRN realm, that is their prerogative (as long as the Bn Cdr is supporting this).

Additionally though, I know that I allow my CBRN NCO to set aside time to train all the 74Ds within the Bn in their day-to-day functions - Services, Accountability, Management, MOS Proficiency, etc. We primarily do this during our "Low Density" STT once a month and then additionally we will gather all our 74Ds up to do training with our Air Force Partners once or twice a month.

Again, as I stated, here in Okinawa and with my Mission Set, I believe that CBRN proficiency is critical and that's why we devote the time/resources to it.

In your case, if the Bn Cdr/CSM are supporting you and the S3 is publishing OPORDs/FRAGOs, it is not you that they are blowing off, it is the Bn Cdr. You should address your concerns with the S3 as they are the Task Managers for the Bn.

Response by CSM Mike Maynard made Dec 6 at 2013 8:05 AM

CSM Mike Maynard — Fri, 06 Dec 2013 08:05:51 -0500

SSG Langston,

The low-density training is executed during one of our 5-hour blocks of Sergeant's Time Training each month. We actually do this with all the low-density MOS's - 42s, 92s, 91s, etc.

We then direct that each unit will provide all their low-density folks for that training - no appointments, no excuses.

Now, each senior NCO for each MOS is responsible for planning the training. Whichever unit they fall under, they brief their 1SG their plan just like the rest of the PSGs brief their training plans.

Now, specifically for the 74Ds - (I'm no expert, so I trust that the tasks and training they recommend are necessary) - they do MOS training - stuff that they need to know for their job. This is mostly focused on educating them on what/how to advise the unit commander and how to manage the unit's CBRN program.

You mentioned inspections - our CBRN NCO along with the Warrant have a CBRN Inspection program where each unit gets inspected/scored once each 6-months to determine who earns the CBRN Excellence Streamer. What gets measured gets done. It helps you to "guide" units to do what they should be doing.

Finally, our CBRN NCO also is the facilitator for the units CBRN Rodeo that they hold each 6-months. Now this is mostly a collective tasks that pulls in the other 74Ds in the units and our Air Force partners to run Gas Chamber / Mask Confidence / PATS / JSLIST / Equipment, etc. It's almost a full-day of training that is round-robin in style.

So, you can see, we have our CBRN NCO fairly busy with assisting units with collective training, inspecting units, individual training, and exercises with our Air Force partners. I feel we have a pretty robust program and that myself and the Cdr have provided sufficient support to put the right amount of focus on this.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2016 1:03 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Feb 2016 13:03:38 -0500

I think that the units fighting the CBRN training program may agree in sentiment with Gen. Abrams who, when asked by a CM Col. in 1974 why the CM Corps was being disestablished, said, "...the combat arms were the ones that had to live and die on the battlefield, and it was their responsibility–not some technician’s responsibility–to make sure they had a defensive capability against CB warfare agents."

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2017 9:05 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Dec 2017 09:05:57 -0500

And the CS chamber is an annual requirement IAW AR 350-1 and every unit is allotted a certain amount of CS capsules every year