Why meeting the standards is not enough anymore?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 13:41:05 -0500

Have you heard this before?

“Yes, you passed the APFT, but you didn’t maxed”

“Yes. you qualified with your weapon, but you didn’t shoot Expert”.

What are your thoughts?

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Feb 23 at 2015 1:48 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 13:48:05 -0500

It is just another driving factor during a drawdown

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Feb 23 at 2015 1:49 PM

SGT Jim Z. — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 13:49:10 -0500

I believe as long as the Soldier gives maximum effort in the performance of the APFT or range I am happy. I can attest not everyone can score a 300 on an APFT but they may able to shoot 40 out of 40. Then there are others who can score 300 and barely shoot 26.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2015 2:01 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 14:01:51 -0500

Meeting the standard should never be the objective, however meeting the standard is an acceptable outcome.

Perhaps there were some unwritten standards in place that you didn't know about.

Someone may also simply believe you are capable of more than simply meeting the standard and want to help you excel.

Response by SFC Richard M. made Feb 23 at 2015 2:34 PM

SFC Richard M. — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 14:34:27 -0500

Did you strive for C's or A's in school?

We're not here to award mediocrity, but to push Soldiers past their limits in order to become better than who they were before.

(Sorry if that sounded rude, just giving an example)

Response by MAJ Jim Steven made Feb 23 at 2015 2:41 PM

MAJ Jim Steven — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 14:41:56 -0500

interesting question...
so many people talk about standards, and then, when you meet them, you arent doing enough....you are supposed to exceed them???
or...
leaders are supposed to "set the standard/held to a higher standard" I thought the army already set the standard, and that there is only one??

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2015 2:51 PM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 14:51:53 -0500

Meeting the standard is the very minimum expect of all of us. In the past it has been enough to keep people around but again why hold tight to those that achieve the minimum when there are others next to you that are over achieving. This is not to say that we don't need folks that just meet the minimum, we do. But if there has to be a choice between those that meet the minimum and those that over achieve the choice is very easy.

Response by GySgt Joe Strong made Feb 23 at 2015 3:06 PM

GySgt Joe Strong — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 15:06:21 -0500

Well, the Corps is a little different, but that's completely the norm.
The minimum, or being near it is a sign of impending trouble, being near but not maxed means "You could work a little harder couldn't you?"

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2015 3:20 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 15:20:23 -0500

While I strive for exceding the standard, if I get the minimum while meeting the standard, that is an acceptable outcome. It lets me know what areas I am barely passing in. I use it as a guidepost to ensure I don't drop below the standard. If every Soldier in my section can pass their APFT it means that we can do more challenging PT.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2015 3:33 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 15:33:40 -0500

Me personally I don't shoot for the standard, I always try for more even if I don't achieve it

Response by SPC Jack Hunt, JR made Feb 23 at 2015 3:34 PM

SPC Jack Hunt, JR — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 15:34:51 -0500

My generation of service was one in which we were proud to set an example by leading from the front. I never knew who my enemy would be or cared what their level of standards were, but I was darn sure going to strive for perfection in all aspects of my training.

In the Airborne we were also held to a higher standard than someone who was a le....... I mean not a Paratrooper.

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Feb 23 at 2015 3:37 PM

SGT Kristin Wiley — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 15:37:05 -0500

Being a soldier isn't about how well you shoot or your PT score. I would take a soldier with character and values to watch my six before a soldier who can only offer me a good weapon's score. Why? Because I can trust the soldier with character to stand their ground and watch my back. The soldier who can shoot might be a selfish SOB that cares only about saving himself and will sacrifice his teammates and the mission to do so. <- not necessarily the case.

Meeting standards aren’t the problem; it’s where the soldier is aiming. In my opinion, if the soldier is only aiming to meet standards then they are failing. If the soldier aims to exceed standards, but is only meeting standards, at least I know that they are pushing themselves to do better.

The difference is that character traits can't be 'taught' in the typical sense of the word. I'd rather have a soldier whose deficiencies can be fixed with training (weapons, PT, height/weight, etc). Unfortunately, character traits aren't quantifiable, so with downsizing the Army has to choose what they can quantify. This means that looking good on paper (NCOERs, PT, Weapons qual, etc) is critical for retention and promotion. The system doesn’t take into account a soldier’s goals or intent. Yes, I think we will be losing some outstanding soldiers using this process, but until we come up with a better process it’s all we have.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2015 3:44 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 15:44:46 -0500

I think it is more of where you ambitions are. If you strive for meeting the standard I really question your commitment. If you strive to put forth the best effort possible in hopes of scoring near the top but still score a 190 I can work with you. Your commitment is there but you might need help focusing your effort to be more fruitful.

Let's be honest. Would you want to take you child to a doctor that just met the standard or one that was the best in the field. Don't we owe the nation the best Army we can give them or an Army of just making the standard?

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Feb 23 at 2015 3:45 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 15:45:33 -0500

The reality is that we live and work in a competitive environment where the folks who excel are the ones who get promoted. If you are not the one on top then you are not competitive. The sad fact is that PT and range qual scores are metrics that are easily obtained and are 100% objective. I agree that they don't measure the true value and capability of a soldier, but that is what we are stuck with.

Response by MSgt Jim Pollock made Feb 23 at 2015 3:59 PM

MSgt Jim Pollock — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 15:59:06 -0500

Personally, I strive to put my best effort into everything I do. On occasion, the result is meeting the standard--nobody is great at everything. More often the outcome is well beyond the standard. Ergo, I view a person that just meets every standard as a person that isn't trying very hard.

From a mentoring standpoint, folks need to realize the low hanging drawdown fruit (eg control roster, NJP) will be gone soon. If force reductions continue, I'll wager a dollar that effort and competency will be the next discriminator. Working to exceed standards is good advice for anyone that wants to make the next cut.

My .02 only. Cheers!

Response by SPC Lukas Jones made Feb 23 at 2015 4:12 PM

SPC Lukas Jones — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 16:12:09 -0500

I agree that leaders should encourage their soldiers to exceed the standard, but I don't think they should demoralize those that meet the standard by making it seem that the standard should really be this high even tho the army says it only needs to be this high. I saw this a lot with my infantry companies and saw some of the dissent it caused. I addressed it quickly and even mediated discussions between soldiers and leaders. Often those leaders don't realize the impact it is making. Old Army vs. New Army.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2015 4:47 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 16:47:34 -0500

As a brand new Squad Leader I remember getting corrected (ass chewed) by the BDE CSM for having my side burns to long "still within standard" he told me as a NCO we exceed the standard even in things as little as that. It really stuck with me and I try to adhere to that still. Though I have always had a naturally competitive edge and try to be the best in everything that I do. If someone try's there best and can only do the minimum standard but when people can do more and chose not to that drives me insane.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2015 5:38 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 17:38:54 -0500

I always loved hearing the same thing regarding PT (scored a 275) from a commander who was overweight and on profile. And that BS is why I'm glad I transitioned out of active duty.

Response by SFC Michael Jackson, MBA made Feb 23 at 2015 7:33 PM

SFC Michael Jackson, MBA — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 19:33:25 -0500

If you just meet the standard, no degree of separation from your peers. So, who's going to lead?