Why would the Chain of Command of command be hostile to questions?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 23:50:32 -0400

I have encountered a few NCOs and Officers above me who are hostile to questions. Some soldiers, who have genuinely asked for guidance on a personal issue have been dismissed, ignored, or otherwise left these offices feeling that what they have to say is unimportant. A lot of these soldiers are young, and have only served for a short time. They immediately feel unimportant. They feel that they have no one to turn to. What is the problem with these NCOs and Officers? What example are they setting for these future leaders? Should this kind of issue be addressed?

We get Suicide Prevention briefing, EO briefings, Sexual Harassment briefings, yet when a soldier with personal issues tries seeking help, a wall goes up as soon as he or she requests it.

I'm a person that believes that if soldiers and their problems annoy you, perhaps you should elect to not re-up and find another occupation. You are lucky to be able to serve in the American military. There are many who would love to serve and cannot.
I'm not privy to upper-echelon training briefs on this sort of thing. Is this sensitivity training? If so, do you think, in your experience, it has had a positive impact on morale? Or should soldiers dealing with these hostile people "suck it up, buttercup"?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 20 at 2014 12:00 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Jul 2014 00:00:32 -0400

I will be the first to tell you that there are some "old school" leaders that are still teaching suck it up buttercup methodology in the military. It has its time and place, but there is a push for the resiliency training to be taught. After going through MRT I find that I recognize that I have used many of these skills already but I never really passed them on like I could have or I had described them differently. We need to harden up as a military in some areas, but we also need to be approachable and assist others in need as we are a big family.

I have an open door policy and many in my company can tell you that this includes calling me anytime day or night if you have a serious issue. Yes utilize your chain of command, but if you have a personal issue that you do not want to share with others or it is something with your chain or something so severe that I must know as a commander right away I am available. I try to make a practice of if a leader tells me that one of their Soldiers need to talk to me that within 5 minutes I can meet with them. Obviously this does not always work, but I try. I also have a great chaplain that has built a great trust in the entire brigade. I utilize him to assist me.

So the first question is do these Soldiers utilize their chain of command or are they jumping it? Are they asking at appropriate times? If they are then they may want to seek someone else to ask for assistance as they may be the wrong NCOs and officers to ask as they are not the best role models. Also, I always recommend having a mentor that is completely out of your chain of command as there is no pressure or influence in helping you with your questions, issues, and plans within the military and outside.

Response by PO1 Walter Duncan made Aug 20 at 2014 4:32 PM

PO1 Walter Duncan — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 16:32:09 -0400

Today there are tools like RP where one can seek advice. Use those tools, but some at some commands may not 1. Be aware or 2. May not have access to RP which leaves them with the original problem, hoping they have someone that they can discuss a personal issue with. Coping with issues are stressful for individuals and their teams, so a discussion is the best alternative. Today many should have some sort of training in their command with dealing or counseling individuals. But, there will be times in the military where situations may prevent a counseling session due to inclement circumstances. Meditate and focus when and if these times occur until you have the proper opportunity to have a counselling time. I hope this was helpful. If your command doesn't have an individual, please utilize and follow the CPT's advice using RP.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Aug 20 at 2014 8:29 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 20:29:03 -0400

Military or civilian world its all the same. If you are a leader and you are responsible for employees its your duty to listen and help resolve issues.

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made Aug 20 at 2014 9:04 PM

1LT Nick Kidwell — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 21:04:51 -0400

You will have leaders who have the gift of firm leadership with empathy, so cherish time spent working with them and try to emulate them. As for the other end of the spectrum, if there's no actual misconduct and they are just plain and simple buttheads, my advice would be to interact with them respectfully, but only as is necessary.

There are simply some people who should not be leaders. Occasionally, those people screw up enough that they get removed/relieved/discharged. Occasionally they do not. Occasionally you get to see their courts-martial....

It's all about the climate the commander and senior NCOs set. There's a balance between a soldier's unit being a place where true issues and legitimate complaints are dealt with properly vs. a command climate where any issues that don't involve JAG, MPs or IG are simply "whines" and are treated with disdain.

But sometimes, yeah...you just have to "suck it up, buttercup." Civilian life is like that sometimes too, so learning to "suck it up and drive on" is a skill everyone will need to use someday.

Response by MSG Floyd Williams made Aug 20 at 2014 10:27 PM

MSG Floyd Williams — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:27:09 -0400

I believe the effect of the ongoing conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan and deployments have taken a toll on Senior Leaders, and I'm sure they have their fair share of personal problems too. I seen it in 2005 and 2006, soldiers used to skip their chain-of-command to come talk to me. Some just wanted someone to listen to them, and others needed advice and whatever I had to offer they felt a sign of relief. It is every Senior Leader responsibility to do everything within their power to reach out to their subordinate soldiers, this was taught in Leadership Courses for NCO's. A Leader who is committed will find the resources to help a soldier, but unfortunately there are some leaders only looking out for themselves.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2014 10:28 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:28:16 -0400

This is what we now call "Toxic Leaders." What is so bad about them is that they can contaminate all of those around them. They can ruin a soldier and that soldier will become an NCO one day and be a toxic leader also. I am sure that this is the case with those in your CoC. It is a difficult situation. All I can say is that you must learn from this and put a stop to this when you are a leader. If you do a good job as an NCO others will notice and you may be able to influence those around you in a positive way.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Aug 20 at 2014 11:52 PM

SGT Richard H. — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 23:52:58 -0400

The "suck it up buttercup" mentality does have it's place. The have always been and always will be that soldier (or civilian) that fabricates problems to avoid whatever it is they want to avoid. Those are the guys that need your foot instead of your help.
There are also people that truly need help, and as leaders it's our job to either give it to them or help them find it. Besides plain old human compassion, it contributes to the the overall effectiveness of the force and is very much in line with our first two leadership priorities: MISSION, MEN.
I think maybe some of the problem with leaders being under-sensitive to real problems can come from when we allow ourselves to be desensitized by the whiners, and the loser in that deal is the person that has a real problem. The good news, like many other ways in which we interact with people, is that awareness is half the battle

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2014 5:11 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 Aug 2014 05:11:40 -0400

I will not only seek continually to improve my knowledge and practice of my profession, but also I will exercise the authority entrusted to me by the President and the Congress with fairness, justice, patience, and restraint, respecting the dignity and human rights of others and devoting myself to the welfare of those place under my command.
Copied and pasted straight from the Commissioned Officer Creed.

My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind—accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my Soldiers.

That is straight from the NCO Creed. So not only is it right thing to do it is their job to do it. My entire platoon has each others numbers and know that regardless of time or day we are there for each other outside of our drill weekends and will help out with anything we can. We even have a group for the entire platoon going to keep in contact which was started by the lower ranking guys. With out being able to talk about issues with each other or a the very least point you in the right direction to getting some help breaks down the morale and makes the unit less effective at their mission regardless of what it is. I have seen my fair share of toxic leaders and I am sick of them in this day and age of the military there is no room for them and something needs to be done. I had some serious issues going on a while back and got to know an NCO that was very toxic and he didnt realize he was until after smoking worse than I ever have before that I just broke down in tears and told him what I was going through. It started a change in him and he started acting more caring about what was goung on in his subordinates and since then he has treated me with respect after a long time of trying to put me down and make me feel like I was nothing. So I feel that all toxic leaders need to be confronted by someone above them and told thet they need to change there ways and be more concerned about the welfare of the Soldiers or there is no place for them in the military and they should separate themselve from it if they are unwilling to change. Of course there are certain things that call for a just suck it up and drive on attitude but the real issues need to be addressed in a proper manner befitting of an NCO or Officer.

Response by SPC David S. made Aug 21 at 2014 2:06 PM

SPC David S. — Thu, 21 Aug 2014 14:06:26 -0400

When it come to personal issues they are just that personal and needed to be kept that way. The reason why for this is a soldier can not be thinking about stuff like never seeing his spouse and kids again when in combat because that hesitation is going to get someone killed. In the military you need to learn how to stow all your personal issues when your deployed so you can stay focused on what's going on around you ie. check your 5's and 25's. Part of the cold shoulder I feel is coming from that mind set. To me the millennial's are way to soft and find it difficult to overcome difficult tasks. I coach rugby and have seen a downward spiral in fortitude. When they get down they just give up. It is hard to coach this out of someone. They need to relearn how to have courage in pain or in adverse conditions. Not saying all are like this but it just what I see. This issue I feel is more or a divergences in how multi-generations view themselves and each other. For me millennials want to look up to NCO's and officers, learn from them, and receive daily feedback from them. They want “in” on the whole picture and to know the scoop. They want NCO's and officers to spend a lot of time teaching and coaching .They also expect your very best investment of time in their success. From their perspective I probably come off as an abrasive a-hole but the military is not a resort with a concierge desk. It's either a dirty nasty job of killing people or supporting those who do a dirty nasty job of killing people. This level of indifference can transcend the battle field. Not saying its right just trying to help explain it.

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2014 3:06 PM

Col Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 Aug 2014 15:06:12 -0400

This problem is not exclusive to the Army as I have also seen it in the Air Force. My opinion is that the hostile response could be due to intimidation, insecurity, lack of knowledge, lack of interest in mentoring, and poor attitude. The very sad thing that I witness as an FGO is that junior folks need mentoring, and the senior enlisted and officers don't want to provide that needed mentoring. Yet, someone invested their time, blood, sweat, and tears into making sure the senior officers and enlisted members got promoted when they were up and coming. So why can't they return the favor? As a result, I take every opportunity to mentor whatever rank in whatever branch. I have been fortunate enough to have had mostly great mentors. The key point that I make when educating folks is that I encourage them to find a mentor that will take an active interest in them and their progress. As for those poor leaders and mentors SPC Mulder mentioned, if you persevere long enough, leadership often changes. Lastly, although it may be tough to endure the storm of a horrible leader, there is a silver lining. They are teaching you how not to lead!

Response by Cpl Jeff Buckman made Aug 21 at 2014 4:09 PM

Cpl Jeff Buckman — Thu, 21 Aug 2014 16:09:02 -0400

I want to start by saying I have nothing but respect for all of my brothers and sisters regardless of branch. I can not say from personal experience all I have is hear say but from what I have heard leadership on the lower and enlisted levels can be lacking, again from what I've heard from people in the army this is the general consensus they don't really teach leadership or give E-4's much responsibility or leadership. In my opinion this is at a large degradation to overall leadership quality of enlisted personnel I learned soo much as a Cpl if I had stayed in I'm sure it would have helped a lot. Now this isn't to say there aren't poor leaders in the Marines there are but they are more widespread I only ran into one in 4 years, when I did I always followed the chain of command first. That is important because if you don't you will get jammed up believe me the poor leader will ensure that happens. I was fortunate enough to have a really good MGySgt who helped me whenever I had an issue. Other ways you can get around the poor leadership is to talk to the FRO or family readiness officer they are there for single people as well and are a great resource.

Response by MAJ Derrick J. made Aug 21 at 2014 5:48 PM

MAJ Derrick J. — Thu, 21 Aug 2014 17:48:50 -0400

SPC -

At first blush, I would say that if anyone is hostile to questions it is because they are lacking in training, interest in soldier development or they are hiding something. Furthermore, it sounds like what you've described about feeling unheard and devalued is the fault of those leaders who have failed to learn appropriate listening skills, compassion and care for their soldiers.

Please note that I am a psychologist, and I operate my own private practice as a licensed marriage and family therapist here in Reno, NV.

When walls go up, its because of the inadequacies of those leaders - they don't know, they are faced with issues that mimic their own struggles and they don't like to face tough personal issues, generally.

As a commander, I always took care of my soldiers, enlisted or officer. I listened and took appropriate action and I never ignored people because they might have annoyed me for a moment.

Immaturity is behind all this, as is an undeveloped self.

Those leaders are wrong, period. Show them this if you want, or have them contact me and I'll set them straight (I know they wont or that's just not something you want to do).

I've had to school numerous fellow commanders, enlisted and even officers senior to me, because of the above issues. I always tried to be cordial and professional, but I never shirked my responsibility to help individual leaders grow because doing what I did helped the unit and the military as a whole.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2014 11:58 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 11:58:01 -0400

As leaders, mentoring subordinates (and in some cases, superiors as well), is the bulk of your role. Many of the Soldiers new to the Army are new to life in general. Many personal problems they experience are new to them and they are not yet able to navigate the resources available to them. Not to mention the fact that their leaders ARE the key resource they're given.
All levels of leadership are meant to ensure the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual needs are being met. This includes helping Soldiers with personal problems. If for no other reason than understanding a personal problem can severely affect performance at work.
If leadership is too callous to care for a Soldier in their charge, then they are ignoring the majority of the responsibility that has been entrusted to them.
It's not about being ultra sensitive, it's not even about feeling their pain on a personal level. It's about empathy, and knowing that you have a personal and professional interest in the well-being of your troops.
What gets the eye roll from me is the people who are the most guilty of this type of behavior, treating troops with mild neglect because they are too busy to care, are the same ones who will insist the Army is like a family, look out for your battle buddy, never leave a fallen comrade, and any other catch phrase you can think of.
They are usually disnengenuous altogether.

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Aug 22 at 2014 6:37 PM

SGT Kristin Wiley — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 18:37:35 -0400

I agree with you analysis of the situation. There have been multiple instances in my career where I felt that I was being treated as less than human. I think many of these officers and NCOs are dead wrong, but multiple factors allow them to continue using this leadership style. These factors include belief this leadership style is 'military tradition', the command and other Senior Leaders not condemning this leadership style or attitude, entitlement from rank, etc. It is extremely disheartening.

I love to give my own personal examples, so here it goes. I work in a Joint Task Force and am one of two Army Enlisted Personnel. My Navy SEA was unclear on Army promotion regulations, so she had the Army First Sergeant from the COCOM come over to discuss these procedures so my command could be properly informed. This 1SG was very upset that I, as an E-5, needed his expertise and said along the lines that 'an E-5 should not be talking about promotion criteria with him.' My Navy SEA now says that his dislike of me from that encounter is preventing me from being recommended to the promotion board. An Army LTC is my supervisor and sat in with me during the encounter and does not see how I could have offended him in any way. Since it appears that I cannot get guidance from a Senior Army NCO without offending in some way, who am I rationally suppose to go to? That's theorhetical question, and the example is definitely not my worse.

Response by LTC Hillary Luton made Aug 22 at 2014 8:38 PM

LTC Hillary Luton — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 20:38:15 -0400

SPC (p) Erin Mulder the reality of the situation is, there are good officers and NCOs and there are bad officers and NCOs. You can help be a guide to our young soldiers who reach out for help and get the Heisman. Help them find the right person to go to. Someone who will listen, like a chaplain or a counselor.

To answer your question, officers are given leadership training to include ethics training, but that doesn't mean the training sinks in with everyone. If an officer or NCO is more focused on their own job, their own career or their own problems, they are going to have a hard time being focused on their subordinates.

I wish there was an easy answer, but there really isn't. For you, learn from the mistakes of others and ensure you don't repeat them.

Response by Sgt Andrew Pouliot made Aug 22 at 2014 10:22 PM

Sgt Andrew Pouliot — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 22:22:23 -0400

I have seen the same issue in my unit. It's not just with people trying to get help and guidance with personal issues. There are professional issues that were not addressed either. In the Marine Corps and Navy, if you have a problem that is not being addressed by your chain of command, you can 'request mast', which is when you go straight to the CO with your problem and tell him/her that you feel that everyone else has failed to address it.
The thing with requesting mast is that it makes you a pariah in the unit. The higher ups suddenly don't trust you, they don't respect you, and you find yourself suddenly being treated like a mule, getting ALL the shit jobs, getting verbally berated and harassed by your NCOs, and even some small scale hazing.
When we returned from Afghanistan, one of my buddies that I deployed with had not received the last month and a half of his pay because admin messed up something on his MyPay. He spent the next 6 months trying to resolve it by going to our admin guys (who are part of the I&I staff), but they continually blew him off. Keep in mind, he's a Lance Corporal (E3) who the Marine Corps owes $7,000; the I&I staff for admin consist of a Master Sergeant, two Gunnery Sergeants, three Staff Sergeants, two Sergeants, a Major, and a First Sergeant. It ended up being that his problem was brought to the attention of the Marine Forces Reserve Headquarters by his father. When the 4th MLG Sergeant Major caught wind of it, he ripped into our I&I staff and 4 days later $7,000 made its way into my friend's account. Since then we have received briefs on using chain of command, which they stress over ALL else, including not using drugs or drunk driving. This hit home for us because one of our marines we deployed with was hit and killed by a drunk driver a month after coming home.
I find that hostile chain of command is the result of complacency and poor leadership. When a Major approaches a Lance Corporal (me) and tells me to find my buddy and send his ass to the CO's office because he would like a word, doesn't that sound unprofessional? We are all afraid to approach them with problems because they won't take care of them. When we try to ask about getting personal stuff resolved, we get blown off much as you have just stated. This is part of the reason why all of us that deployed (there are about a dozen of us) are jaded and want nothing to do with the unit anymore. We left before they reorganized everything, so when we returned we didn't know any of these marines and most of them have not deployed so when they treat us like boots and scream at us (what's the point in yelling anyway, like honestly. You're not getting a point across and you're not helping get work done when you scream for no reason) it just makes us wish we weren't in. I honestly don't know what to say on how to handle such a situation because we have all tried everything.
Sometimes you just have to roll with the punches. I can tell you my fellow LCpls and Cpls have been here for me and given me more guidance on anything than any of our officers or other NCOs have. If you have smart people beside you who have your back, then you will do good.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 28 at 2014 2:13 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 Aug 2014 14:13:15 -0400

SGT Robert Chestney, you stand as my "case in point" for this thread. Go ahead and down vote this comment, too.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 28 at 2014 4:22 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 Aug 2014 16:22:03 -0400

It seems to me that this thread leads back to a point I heard when going through Chief's initiation - "You've had good leaders and bad ones in your career. Think about them. You'll probably learn more about leadership from the bad ones."

Response by SPC Lukas Jones made Feb 16 at 2015 10:53 PM

SPC Lukas Jones — Mon, 16 Feb 2015 22:53:41 -0500

I have seen this in line units (infantry companies) but it was due to time constraints. We always had question time during weapons maintenance or downtime where we could approach our leadership and ask such questions.

In my brigade unit, we are constantly encouraged to ask questions, learn as much as we can, and always expand our opportunities. Any EO/SHARP/Open Door policy concerns should never be ignored regardless of the unit or command. If it is only a select few, perhaps requesting to talk to the 1SG or Commander about this issue. Leaders should never dismiss an opportunity to develop a junior!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2015 10:55 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Feb 2015 22:55:47 -0500

You are on point. I don't know why the come off so abrasive and dismissive.

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2015 11:06 PM

A1C Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Feb 2015 23:06:56 -0500

It took a while, but eventually I found the right people to go to for help, but I shouldn't be turned away and feel like I'm not part of the flight when I need help repeatedly before I figure out who to ask. It is frustrating when you are trying to learn who is good to ask about what. Sometimes you get lucky and have an expert on the subject around.

Response by Maj James Tippins made Mar 15 at 2016 11:47 AM

Maj James Tippins — Tue, 15 Mar 2016 11:47:27 -0400

Perception is reality.

I was once a young airman who knew it all. I'll bet just about everyone here has grown through this aspect of their military careers. It is possible the comments mentioned by those young people to their superiors may have been those of one feeling their way around a new experience...the military life.

It is also possible the senior people believe their way is the right way to teach young people the "stuff" they need to succeed in todays military environment.

The personal life issues may indeed be significant to the person expressing them, but that person may just need to hold tight and experience the answer; not everyone kills themselves if they get denied counseling by upper staff.

It's a tough decision to make, but the individual needs to know that not everything they sense as an emergency is in actuality, an emergency. My own experience has always shown this to be true.